Bitcoin Forum

The security of the NXT network is a function of the level of decentralization of the stake. The more decentralized the stake, the more security each confirmation lends to a transaction. It is important for the long term health of the network that the proper balance be struck between the reward that the initial stake holders rightfully deserve for the risks they have legitimately taken and the necessity for a certain level of decentralization of stake in a proof of stake system.

With that being said it isn't immediately clear what is the right trade off or how these stake holders should go about about addressing this issue. The purpose of this thread is twofold. The space at the top will be reserved for statement by stakeholders about thinks like goals, time frame and proposed means of meeting those goals. Below that will be available for all manner of discussion related to this topic.

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Proof of Stake is never going to succeed.  It does not incentivize adoption.  Honestly, even Doge is a better coin than NXT.

"Never say Never" - Justin Bieber

I forgot to make it self moderated. please just ignore off topic comments.

Better make new self moderated.
Btw, how would we identify stake holders?

any idea how. I tried and it wouldn't let me delete or move this one.

They're wearing fancy clothes and driving flashy cars  ;D

Abandon it and let it die and just start a new one is probably the only choice.

Change the title to "RIP: you were young, but fatally flawed"

I thinks its a dead topic.  Stakeholders have already greatly distributed their share, many of the large Nxt holders were early buyers from stakeholders.  I don't think a stakeholder will post here cause most people will just berate them with ridicule.   Distribution will continue to happen, many are waiting for decentralized exchange.

You have been a member since 2010 and you still do not know how to create a self-moderated thread  ::)

i know how to create it. what i dont know is how to make an existing and presently not self moderated thread self moderated.

perhaps you are right. i made this thread because cfb argued against lowering transaction fees by saying the stake was not distributed enough yet.

We shouldn't let this thread to die. I like comments similar to
coz they r like encrypted messages from subconsciousness. For example, decryption of the above message gives such text:

Based on my understanding of Peercoin PoS minting, the transaction input was split to two outputs after the PoS block reward so that the number of PoS "miners" gets more and more in the PoS network which will competes during the PoS minting. Through this tx split, PoS network get bigger and bigger and more and more people must open the wallet to take party in the minting to get rewards(interest) and can't hibernate for 3 months and then open wallet to mint.

As we know, there is no multiple "inputs" in Nxt account, so is there any way similar to get more and more forgers? And at the same time, I think it may get the stake distributed more evenly.

I can understand the importance of a better distribution of Nxt and it is difficult for the large stakeholders (whoever own 5M+ Nxt IMHO) to quickly distribute their NXT because they could hope to sell them at a better price in the future. But the dilemma is that if those large stakeholders do not distribute their NXT now a healthy NXT network may not be created and there maybe no a better price in the future.

It makes sense that the large stakeholders would only distribute their NXT if the distribution will make the price of NXT higher in the future. I have couples of suggestion here:

1) setting up a target for healthy max holding. I see that some stakeholders are still holding 5% of total NXT. Is it a healthy max holding? I do't know. For me it seems 1% is more healthy target based on the opinions I read online.

2) setting a max forging power at current stage. I see the large accounts have been gobbling the transaction fees because their balance are high. To build up a wider and stabler network, we need to encourage people to build more nodes and reward those node guys at this early stage of NXT. We can set up the max forging power as 500k or 1M, which means that all accounts with more than 500k or more than 1M NXT will be treated as 500k or 1M. Therefore the small accounts will have more forging power and receive more NXT as fees. This can be ended at a time when we have better network and distribution.

3) setting up a fund for the future development of NXT. Large stakeholders can chip in certain percentage of their NXT to this fund to facilitate the future development of NXT.

I like the idea, but Nxt is 100℅ POS (for now), so that wouldn't be fair to limit forging abilities.  I think overall growth has been healthy and we will continue to grow user base once there are more usable features.  Right now people buy to hoard or to make quick profit, so we need to have a little more patience. 

That will a real kick in the teeth for large stakeholders if they have to spend 5 minutes setting up 10 new accounts with 500k in each.

I have 4 NXT. I have no clue what the point of this currency is.

That was an insightful and important comment. ;)

Well here is maybe something better, with POS there is no way I can generate. Therefore I would have to buy more NXT which is actually more difficult right now than it seems. Sure, the exchanges like BTER exist to do that. However, at the same time, the amount needed to forge more coins is extremely high and an amount that I don't have to spend. Therefore, this coin is basically useless to someone like me, and is mostly for those that had giveaway coin, or have money to throw at it. For those that have lots of it, it's nice to have a coin become worth a lot of money, but for those that don't, what's the point of even trying to be part of the community.

I bet u r talking about people with "miner" mentality.

Well it is true, I have miner mentality. But I haven't seen anyone make a compelling argument as to why I should try and be in this community. I'm listening for someone to convince me this is the way to go.

I wrote an essay that isn't specifically about why you should be involved with the nxt community but i suspect some of that may carry over. feel free to check it out https://docs.google.com/document/d/1E_ToOMG2l1XThx6YnyXEajXaf6H1k2yjq8XkAF0ScB4

That is such a contradictory comment, that's the whole point of POS, if you own Nxt you can forge more Nxt.  The amount of Nxt needed to forge is 1.  If you own BTC, it just sits there, you don't earn any more, you have to invest in expensive mining equipment.  So with Nxt, instead of buying depreciating mining equipment, you buy appreciating Nxt, to forge.  Why is that so hard to understand.

First off, the big NXT stakeholders are intelligent. They all know they need to reduce their holdings and most have already sold half or more. Some have pledged to reduce their holdings to the magic 1% level and then donate 100% of all future forging revenues to a community fund.

If you had a rapidly appreciating asset, but didn't know how high it will go, will you:
a) sell everything all at once now and put a big dent in the market price
b) gradually sell NXT at predetermined higher and higher prices to minimize effect on price

It seems you are advocating the self-destructive course of a)
If I had 25 millon NXT, I would sell of increments at higher and higher prices. this gives inventory to the market as it rises and doesn't kill the price. Some of the early adopters are doing the buy low, sell high game, which is what creates all the volatility.

If we want more NXT to be distributed, we just need to keep doubling its price by making it that much better and marketing it properly. I assure you that as the price keeps going up, the large stakeholders will continue to sell. Without this inventory appearing out of nowhere, the NXT price would be even more volatile than it is. As it is, each big surge in price is satisfied and the price drops as the buy demand is filled. price consolidates and makes another run up, etc.

Each price wave up, distributes millions of NXT.

I figure another three more doublings and there will be very few founders with much more than 10 million NXT

James

You're correct, I forgot to use a qualifier. I cannot generate anything in a meaningful way. I have read statements such as this, "It's simple. You need to buy a few more millions of NXTs, and then you will have a realistic chance for getting some significant reward." which speak to my plight. This currency seems to be a "rich get richer" or "pay to play" mentality. While it is fine if you have the stake to play, for those wanting to join that do not, have no chance at all. I just don't think this currency is designed for the majority.

I still need to read the above link that was posted, however.

This analysis of the large stake holder having an advantage over the small stake holder falls away when you take into consideration opportunity costs. A rich person with a million nxt does have the ability to forge more than someone with 1000 nxt but he has also foregone 1000 times as many opportunities as the person with 1000 nxt has. Now granted he has the advantage that is conferred by being wealthier in general. But no net advantage over the small stake holder from the forging specifically.

statistically all accounts get the same return from forging. Of course this is little comfort when the average time to forge is over one year.
In an upcoming version that will have Account Controls, one of the features is pooled forging. Not sure of all the details, but my guess is that all accounts that are pooling would get a prorata share based on their stake. I imagine we will have to wait until fractional NXT are supported.

James

I was thinking that another benefit to have a wider users base is to have a bigger talents pool for NXT. We need immediate talents in the fronts  of dev, marketing, and sales, specially those who can quarterback each front, like cfb and jl in dev, joke fox and salsacz in marketing, nifty and peercoinE in sales and promotion. Only people who have stakes in NXT will care. The new talents only can be found among the new NXT adopters and it takes time to nurture the best.

I appreciate the responses. I still am having trouble wrapping my head around it.

The way I understand it is that, you must invest into this currency for it to have any real worth for you. And effectively, your fiat investment, is your proof of work. Then, your proof of stake takes over and you are rewarded for that stake through forging. However, if you can't invest, and have 4 NXT like me, than the estimation timer for forging a block is 70000+ days!! I'll be dead by that time, and probably my children as well...lol. The NXT wiki spells it out best, "The amount of coin you can earn is dependent upon the number of coins you hold, the total number of coins "active" on the network, and the transaction fees included in blocks on the blockchain."

well yea but 4 nxt isn't even worth 1/2 a USD. of course you are going to have to wait a while :D.

tell us your address, we can manage to get you more than 4 nxt :D

Think of it like this.  You want to mine some BTC, do you power up your 386 and wonder why you aren't mining BTC?  No, you go out and buy some $5k rig beast to mine BTC in a pool.  Nxt is like that, but instead of buying depreciating electronic equipment, you spend a couple $k on appreciating Nxt and then you can forge.  When everything is up and running, the block rewards will significant.

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Thank you. Reading about POS was just so different than the POW altcoins. But now I realize that the investment is in the currency. Again, thanks all for helping me understand this. I'm very new to cryptocurrency, and already moving in to a 2nd generation of coin has me hustling to catch up with nomenclature and whatnot. You guys could have treated me harshly, and you didn't, and instead gave me the answers I was looking for. I really appreciate that more than anything. Keep up the good work in the community. I'll seek opportunities to be more involved as well.