Bitcoin Forum

Double post

Don't understand your point. What you want to say?
If you don't like Ethereum/MasterCoin/Nxt/ProtoShares/BitShares or any other crowd sourcing like projects, simply stay away.

If you want to say something about it, please make it clear.

Ethereum sucks i agree, too much greed by the owners. But it has nothing to do with Invictus, Invictus is doing really well btw.

I admit that it's as iffy as it gets, but does that mean there isn't a lot of money to be made? No. Just like with altcoins, there are winners and there are losers. Smart people will know a get-rich-quick scheme when they see one, and they'll use it to their advantage.

There is a pecking order to these things, and if I've learned anything, there's Ponzi schemes, Ponzi players and Ponzi suckers.

Show me an IPO that's really any different.


It very well could be. It does have to be fair to be successful. This just another way for smart people to get richer, and not-so-smart people to get poorer. No different than hundreds of schemes like it. It's already Beyond the means of your average crypto enthusiast. This is solely for people with big money and big ideas.

I disagree!! BTC & all altcoins are air ( as you call them ) but none are backed "by debt only" which gives  them more value than FIAT Currency in a free market! So just under 1000 people/corporations/banks already own over 50% of all the BTC mined to date, so they can pump and dump on a whim and win on both the up and down moves ( Just like the rigged stockmarket, Bondmarket, Derivativemarket ) which will all come crashing down later this year or next maybe. Now a 12 year old can launch his/her own coin for $100 and give it a crap name and maybe make a buck but the FREE Market will decide what coins hold real value! and that's the way it should be!!  

I'm not so sure about this.

- They are asking an insane 30k BTC

- 50% pre mined

- They are setting a price out of nothing for 1 eth, while it's not even out yet

- "ex" Goldman Sachs pricks are supporting this project

aaand probably other red flags i'm not aware of.

What do you expect from Banksters!!! and they think the sheeple fools will fall over themselves to get in  and sadly some will.

Even the name of the coin is creepy. 'Etherium' sounds exactly like something a bunch of greedy banksters would think is appealing to the Internet geeks.

endless alt coins or endless ipo alt coins

ethereum symbol                                                               
http://i41.tinypic.com/2ur8izr.png                         

usd symbol
http://i40.tinypic.com/29ehk6v.png

Ohh!! they luv their Capstones ( Triangles/Pyramids ), Owls, Checkered patterns, Goats...etc. Freemason, Biederberg, Skull & Bones bags or crap!! This will never fly in a community of those who are critical thinkers and are aware!!

Regardless of the issue, that's not a valid or serious accusation. What next, no triangles?

That's how delusional this sounds. Stay off the feel-good, feel-intelligent conspiracy clap trap and focus on things you can prove and show with your own results. They are far more effective than your soap box.

OK the signs are visible so stay away from the enemy  >:( >:( >:(

Can someone explain in a few sentences what Ethereum is all about? Tried to get quickly over their website a couple of times but couldn't get my head around it. Is it supposed to be a new cryptocoin?

I like that pyramid analogy, so ethereum is supposed to be the other side of the pyramid shown in fiat currency..

I understand scepticism towards new projects such as this. Actually, I think it's healthy to help improve on original plans (such as the issues with Dagger). But I don't understand why people make such definitive statements deeming a new cryptocurrency as garbage without a solid base of evidence. It's too early to make such judgements. Ethereum is far from many altcoins that merely imitate bitcoin.

I am not a particularly technical person, so I must say when it comes to the technical details of ethereum I have to base judgements on trusted sources. Therefore, I may not have a particularly valuable opinion on the specifics. However, the aims of this project seems innovative to me. So although I will not try to challenge you on technical issues with ethereum, I think it is counter productive to trash new and potentially revolutionary ideas. People like you stifle innovation and I think you should phrase your criticism in a more productive way.

Does using the security that a decentralised network like bitcoin has provided, but improving it's functionality to allow the development of a whole range of autonomous services sound like a "garbage" idea? To me it sounds like a fascinating progression from creating a decentralised currency to creating a diverse set of decentralised services that currently rely on the trust of people. I'm sure you are aware of the inherent greedy nature of human beings.

I don't know maybe you are right, but I think that regardless of whether ethereum is a success, it is an interesting concept and the idea in itself provides a valuable contribution.

This is the biggest and glaring issue of the coin network.  They are incorporating the coins into a more centralized organization rather than keeping them in the network.  This allows the organization to dictate the value of the coin at whim.  You might be mining for a profit one second and then all of a sudden the organization dictates a change and you are in the hole.  All the while the organization is the one profiting on the shift in value.

They are establishing a Federal Reserve coin network where a single body controls the inflation and value of the coin.  Only the ones in charge of the network and their insiders will every profit from it.  For everyone else it is a negative sum game.

this is the first i've ever heard of ethereum.

_{i misread this as something about electrum wallets and clicked through.}

It doesn't matter if you're a nuclear physicist, you will not understand what it is because they do not tell you what it is.  They give broad, buzzword loaded phrases, without specifics, that can mean anything.  Look at the following phrase:

"All bitcoin raised will be initially sent to a multisig exodus address controlled by the fiduciary members and then moved to a holding entity established in Canada that will be gradually converted into a decentralized autonomous organization"

Technically, that sentence could mean a man in Canada is going to take all the money and drive a Hyundai to Mexico where he will spend it all on drugs and hookers and they would not be lying.

Load up the "corporate bullshit generator" link here and click it a few times.  Notice how everything generated looks identical to Ethereum text:  "objectively incubate covalent experiences"

http://www.atrixnet.com/bs-generator.html

I'll be honest,  they seem to have backing by a long list of Bitcoin afficionados.

I think it indeed is quite expensive 35 million IPO.  However,  if you got that kind of money for your development cost,  then you should be a serious player.

The problem with a lot of folks here is that they think development costs nothing.

Anyway,  if you are looking for something cheaper, then our team is working on something just as ground breaking.

ILL MAKE IT EASY TO UNDERSTAND




IF IT SMELLS LIKE SHIT AND LOOKS LIKE SHIT, IT PROBABLY IS A BUNCH OF CRAP

Is Ethereum a scam?

Yes I think it is a scam coin based on what I have heard. I have heard Ethereum is premined at 50%. That is way too large a chunk for the project devs to get to themselves.

Reading the Ethereum paper describes solutions to problems several currencies currently have or theoretically will have. From my perspective it sounds like a promising protocol, it seems like it highlights positive aspects from other Alternate currencies and tries to improve upon the downsides these currencies have primarily because they are reliant on the Bitcoin protocol and that imposes limitations when wanting to add extra functionality to the protocol. (Colored Coins, Metacoins, DAO, Contracts)

The main issue I have with Ethereum is that its not backed by technical people, but marketing types.

Regardless of how well connected they are within the Bitcoin community, they are not as technical as they are at writing good copy.

I also don't like the idea that there is nothing available to check over before launch.

Nxtcoin, on the other hand is also claiming to be a next gen coin, but at least you can buy them, and keep an eye on development.

However, rather than making a fuss, let the market decide! ;-)

Shit man speak for yourself I would punch a nun to get my hands on an autonomous robot armed with a machine gun.

Drugs?

Thanks for the post

r0ach - what are your issues with Peercoin? thanks.

Ultimately its for the market decide. So I'm working on a market system which puts all at a level playing field. Then you have demand & supply establishing prices. As long as information is freely distributed people can evaluate all schemes on their own merit.

Thank you for sharing this. Never seen it before made my afternoon  :D

When examining proof of stake, the conclusion I came up with was, it's a more elegant solution to solve the problems proof of stake *attempts* to tackle, by simply not giving out unlimited numbers of wallet addresses, or limiting them to one per individual:

Bitcoin Capitalism vs Bitcoin Socialism and the inevitable death of Sunny King

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395769.0

I believe NEM coin (NXT fork), is attempting to utilize this idea now.  But then they taint and ruin the entire project with an IPO money grab.

I dare you to come up with something better than Ethereum then, please enlighten us  ;)

To understand the deep insight of roach fully, you need to look at why he thinks Doge coin is a winner thread. Outside of the wisdom given here, he gives more in that thread.  ::) This one is enlightening, grab the popcorn  ;D... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=446286.msg4906057#msg4906057 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=446286.msg4906057#msg4906057) Bashing threads on other coins and promoting Doge? You don't say... And joined 3 months ago.

Agree, it is a garbage.

now that the big eth fundraiser was called off, I'm more sympathetic. its probably thanks to communal efforts that it was called off. I think there should be some guidelines for such power-plays.

r0ach thanks for your posts. you're one of the few who realize that these problems are not merely technical.

I don't understand how eth even pretends to solve the hashing power problem. Anyway.

 ::)

I think we need to separate two issues:
1 - Ethereum the technology
2 - Ethereum's fund raiser

I have a problem with #2 as did many if not most BTC supporters. So, let's not cloud the money issue with what Ethereum can do. If you listened to the latest Let's Talk Bitcoin Podcast, where the leaders of Ethereium, Mastercoin and Invictus were talking, it seems like Etherium has a pretty good idea. But even the other guys joked about the 30,000 BTC fundraiser - God that sounds a bit much. And that is
for starters. But again, Ethereum the technology sounds very very interesting. And one of the preceding (not to mention colored coins as well) will probably be firmly entrenched before years end.

IAS

It's not one of my best posts, and kind of jumbled in thought, but you took it out of context entirely.  I said Doge is a winner because Doge will reward miners to keep the thing up.  It's going to exist and be used as currency no matter what.  Things like Quark on the other hand, could just disappear overnight since there's no reason for anyone to keep the block chain up, and people might become suspicious of a currency that basically requires check points to be broadcast in real time to be secure.  It's all stated there in the following quote from that thread:

"Contrary to what the topic might look like, I'm not saying Doge is a good buy, it gets pumped above real market value too much.  What I am saying is, Doge as a currency will survive because they're actually rewarding miners to keep the thing up.  Even if Doge lost 75% of it's value overnight somehow, a year from now it will still be around, and probably more valuable than it is currently.  If a coin like NXT lost 75% of it's value in a flash crash (which probably will happen due to horrendous distribution), you would probably never see the coin again after a week."

It also turns out the Doge reserve went against almost the entire community demands for halving dogeflation and stayed with 5%.  It's not that big a deal in the short, medium, or long term, as demonstrated in the following post, but it's still a PR nightmare:

http://theblogchain.com/2014/02/03/dogecoin-is-not-mugabecoin-a-discussion-of-inflation/

r0ach philopsophy is this
GPU coin = awesome
not a GPU coin ? = scam

GPU coins are the most wasteful form of mining nor solve the centralization issue.
but they are pimped by gamers trolls with crossfire setups so they can turn their cards into $$$

."if NXt lost 75% of its value it would die instead doge still survives".....nxt lost more than half of its value at least on 2 occasions.....and it grows stronger and its development too .
and btw Nxt on release survived shit loads of dddos attacks with only an handful of nodes .there's more chance for a PoS coin to survive long term than a coin based on mining that is for sure.

in any case i don't hate on doge...i like its inflationary model...incentivizes spending.....but hating on ethereum is idiotic.  i don't care if those guys are asking big money...they deserve it as they bring innovation and skill in the game. surely they deserve to make more money than lazy gpu miners who troll forums all day and who feel they should be the one making da money in crypto (even if mining is not even needed anymore).

Not even close.  In a perfect world with no botnets, CPU PoW would probably be a much less annoying distribution model for all parties involved, but that model is just not valid at the current time.  I even suggested a way to fix it so the CPU PoW system would become viable, and fix PoW energy problems in two posts on this page, so I obviously have no bias towards GPU:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=395769.0

Re: Why Ethereum is garbage and must be stopped
=================================

 Thank you OP.

 All your points have been taken under serious consideration by many.

 Not to mention your other valid points on other issues in this tread.

 It's extremely dangerous and all too defeating to reward those only out for themselves,
and damn the rest along the route.

 Many here are very young, and naive, plus far too trusting. Never take anything at face value.


 These IPO's show up without their goods, without it all on display, without a complete plan laid to bare,
and then expect and find gullible, naive gamblers all too willing to roll the dice. And in the end the
scammers starting these horrible creations only enrich themselves, while scheming and scamming away
just like our soon to be ex-bankster enemies.

 Wake up people.

 Recently I have focused on why many Crypto's wont survive, and culled my own previously extremely
large stable of dozens of speculative Crypto's down to merely a dozen, and still rapidly falling from there.

 Sadly very few Crypto's have what it takes. And these IPO Crypto's are nothing but a shot in the dark,
and placing one's trust into strangers whom peddle mere words instead of real, solid, stable wares.

 As for the scammers, hucksters, and con artists: Your on notice. And a lot of us are going to be
running over your scams left and right from now on. We're simply going to police this sector ourselves.
And leave all these free loading parasite scammers as road kill. You wont find it an easy nor pleasant
task to try to keep scamming this DECENTRALIZED Crypto-Currency Revolution. Not anymore.

 From the bot-net CPU type Crypto scammers, to the PnD Scammers, to the IPO get rich quick
scammers, to the massive Pre-Mine and Insta-Mine scammers, to scammers of all stripes...Get lost.
All of you get lost. Your wasting your time and efforts from here out. Some of us will drive you right
out if you don't wise up and leave already. Just leave. Disappear. And never come back!


 It's taken a very long time to realize that some types of Crypto's are not "Masterpieces" after all.

 At first, second, and even close up glances some really appear to be Masterpieces.

 But instead their merely wonderful scam-masterpieces, masquerading as something their not.


FACT:

 Very few Crypto's have any real chance at making it into the Mainstream Marketplace.

 And in case the reader of this isn't really focused the fact is that RACE is already well underway.


 2014 is THE RACE to the Mainstream Marketplace. Winner(s) take all, or at least nearly all, this year.
================================================================


 And after Cryptos such as Bitcoin grab the lion share of the marketplace it will take more than merely
a masterpiece with some new twists to unseat bitcoin, or any of the rest of the selected winners of 2014.

 What, do people here really think businesses and the mainstream will want and desire to juggle
many dozens of crypto's? Not hardly. They will want as few as possible, and as many as it takes to get
diversified safely. No more, no less. With the lion share going to the top one, two or three types.
These are the facts, and sadly their ignored by almost everyone here. Wake up. Smell the Crypto.


 So if you can't release a solid, stable, ready from the get go, with massive numbers of servicesCrypto,
that's a real masterpiece your wasting your time and efforts.

 And don't dare pre-mine it, nor insta-mine it either. But not with any ASIC or CPU only types. We're on
to those types of scams now. Those merely for the wealthiest (asic types) or the crooks with bot-nets
(cpu types) wont be supported anymore. Not by those that learn what a scam that they have been
suckered into supporting! And word will from now on travel far and wide about all those scams. All the
scammers are now on notice. GET LOST, or all your efforts will be in vain!

 And if all you have is something else altogether, or one of these IPO schemes, or whatever, then
fuck off, because we're going to expose you relentlessly, trash you endlessly, fully ruin your plans,
and your hopes to con many. And run you all right off the digital cliff. As well as dash your dreams
of any riches.

 Satoshi laid it all out. Either greatly improve on that masterpiece called Bitcoin, or your wasting your
time and efforts.


 The race to the Mainstream Marketplace is already fast underway.
==========================================

Those there first will have won, and will be extremely difficult to dethrone.

Add to that there will be little chance for late bloomers to grab even a tiny bit of market share.


 So scammers with hopes of getting wealthy:
---------------------------------------------------

 ===================================================================
 Your all on notice. Fact is your not welcome, and you will be outed. So get lost. Or We will crush your scams.
 ===================================================================

 The heat is just starting to be cranked up in this entire DECENTRALIZED Crypto Revolution.

 It will only get much more severe for any and all scammers from here out.

 Damn the Banksters to Hell, and Damn these Scammers to Hell too.
Your two of a kind. And you have all worn out your welcomes.

 We wont stand for your types anymore.
Not in our communities.
Not in this Crypto Revolution.
Not anywhere.
Not anymore.



Caveat emptor - let the buyer beware!

I've seen far too many long soliloquies with nary a reference. I can't believe the first post, and I can't believe the last. I didn't even bother with page 2.

How do I invest in these robots?  Is there an IPO?  I have 0.0005btc  :P

Roach even though you are a USD bagholder and retard you got this basically correct.

But I can simplify it for everyone,  its just how Banks think .

The Blockchain is the " gold"

Everything else is a paper " iou" .

In this case the words have just chnaged , from debt iou to " contract" .

So the old banker shell game of we hold the gold and you play with the paper certificates still holds.

There really is nothing to see here as its a DOA idea.

The Bitcoin monopoly capitalists tried it and we have a host of beautiful failures,  mastercoin etc , other junk.

There is the Ripple faliure.

How can you impose centralization onto a decentralized market with an expanding information environment? 

If it is really garbage, why does it need to be stopped? No one likes garbage, therefore no adoption. Right!?

I concur with this point the system is too new to just throw aside presently
Until I see a solution that addresses the financial system and volatility of bitcoins better and working I will consider the Ethereum project a possible outcome

That said #2 the fundraiser is a totally different issue and should be noted separately

I was going to respond to that most recent huge rant above, but responding to this succinct post is as apt while responding to the same basic problem.

There exists a breed of marketeers that believes the "mainstream" is attained by bullshit, not, for example, by technical merit.

Their main real point in practice seems to be that "the masses" are snowed by bullshit far more effectively and efficiently than they are impressed and attracted and recuited by actual quality goods and services.

Thus basically their strategy is to keep throwing shit against walls until some of it sticks.

That is, pump out so much bullshit that lots of money is sucked in, then simply buy whatever actual skills, goods, services, techniques and so on that it takes to stay in business once they have snowjobbed a huge crowd into giving them huge piles of money.

They do seem to have a point in some ways, partly because once they have huge piles of money they often do find lots of technically skilled people who need money thus are willing to try to fix the garbage the snowjob marketeers made vague noises about in their propaganda / marketing-copy or to come up with something that could in some way seem at least vaguely akin to the vapourware the marketeers were raving about.

So the approach is snowjob the masses first and then try to come up with something, because first actually coming up with something so often leaves developers with a great product or service that no one buys because the marketeer snowjob people already have the masses hanging on a hope sending all their money chasing after vapourware. (And thus to an extent locked in by a throw good money after bad type fallacy: being already bagholders holding the bullshit bag, many often will opt to try to somehow salvage that bag and oppose anything actually good and useful that might devalue that bag.)

Thus the marketeers expect to win, because if any developers ever do actually come up with something that even vaguely resembles the vapourware the marketeers were bullshitting about, the marketeers expect to co-opt it by buying the developers or snowploughing them under with lots of hired help hired to copy their development as property of the marketeers.

So the value proposition they are really putting to the public amounts to "you know that bullshit is what wins the market, you see how good we are at bullshitting you, so buy in and we will make you rich by bullshitting everyone else too".

-MarkM-

It doesn't need to be stopped , i said its DOA.

The only way to force junk like this on people is though deception or threat , that has been the last 100 years.

We have just had a first hand demonstration of the failures of both.

As i said if the cap surges it will be a circle jerk and the only aim is to sucker investors in, but the traditional way to do that was with brokers and IPOs , but if you are dealing with an educated market you might sucker what 3% if that ?

They probably do not regard "the mainstream" aka "the masses" as an educated market.

They might be right about that.

The bullshit is probably hoped to be the target market's primary source of "education" on the matter.

-MarkM-