Bitcoin Forum

Trendon Shavers (known as Pirateat40 or simply Pirate) was the operator of the largest ponzi scam (in bitcoin amount scammed) in bitcoin history:

https://i.imgur.com/xHKRbO2.png

Pirateat40 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=35827) operated a ponzi scheme which initially promised a guaranteed a daily profit of 1%, and then disappeared with an unknown amount of bitcoins in August 2012. Thoughts were that the amount was about 500,000 bitcoins (US $5 million at the time).

These amounts were soon quashed once investigators realized a large hoard of coins found in their analysis did not belong to Pirate, but instead to a black market website with which Pirate used to mix his funds to hide the actual amounts he had held/stolen.
Source: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trendon_Shavers

August 22, 2011, Howdy... pirateat40 here, long time watcher first time poster.  Those that know me, know me from OTC. Arrrrgh
Pirateat40 makes his first post on Bitcointalk
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=15672.msg472876#msg472876
   
October 17, 2011,(Auction) More Cards Available (5970, 2x6970, 1x6950) CLOSED
Initially pirate was trading GPUs for bitcoin and was a trusted member of the bitcointalk community - even reporting scammers
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=48692.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=51217.0 (reporting a scammer)


November 03, 2011, Bitcoin Savings and Trust on http://btclending.com/
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.msg607752#msg607752
(Origional post was edited later by pirate)

https://i.imgur.com/tEabsyW.png


July 05, 2012, I believe theses quotes should now kill BS&T.
Vandroiy repeatedly warned user that  Bitcoin Savings and Trust is a Ponzi and writes a detailed post with accusations.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91655.0

https://i.imgur.com/rQFCtjB.png

https://i.imgur.com/SQt29xK.png


July 05, 2012,  organofcorti suggests a method to settle the division of opinions.
Pro Pirate Bond: Coins invested in the Pro Pirate Bond are invested with Pirate, at whatever the current rate is. Any interest obtained will be moved to an escrow service.
Pirate Default Bond: Coins invested in the Pirate Default Bond do not increase in value.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91661.0

July 05, 2012, I know what Pirate's doing
Several members stick up for pirateat40
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91670.0

July 06, 2012 Putting your money where Pirate's mouth is.
Vandroiy and pirateat40 have a 5000 btc wager escrowed by nanotube
5000 BTC Wager that pirate will default by October 2013
10100 BTC put into escrow with nano
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=91661.msg1013589#msg1013589

https://i.imgur.com/7DsH1vF.png

July 10, 2012, Other People getting PMs from Vandroiy Discouraging Investment in BS&T?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92556.0

July 10, 2012, How much BTC have you lost out on because you listened to Vandroiy?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=92581.0

July 24, 2012,Choose: Walk The Plank or Keelhaul
Pirateat40 attempts to get Vandroiy to concede a month prior to closing down the site.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=95008.0


July 27, 2012, A risk/reward analysis of insured pirate: YARR, PPT.X, GIPPT, Hashking, Goat
Discusion of various “default bonds” issued.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=96092.0

August 17, 2012 (See edit) Pirate closes  Bitcoin Savings and Trust
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50822.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101339.0

https://i.imgur.com/BS0n4PF.png


August 19, 2012,[TROLL] I'm giving 100% ROI away to anyone who thinks pirate is a fraud
Worlds most expensive troll prank gone wrong by Matthew N. Wright.
It ends up costing him dearly, loses friends over it and then disappears.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=101751.0 (The prank)
This was a horrible childish prank that made me look bad and I have no excuse, just that I won't do anything like this again.

I have settled with mostly everyone who bet in this troll thread and it sucks having this be one of the things I'm remembered for, but I won't let it happen again.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140654 (The compensation thread)

August 29, 2012 Figuring out how much was invested with pirateat40
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=104258.msg%msg_id%

August 30, 2012 Vitalik Buterin wrote an article about it at the time.
https://i.imgur.com/YPNOIsY.png
https://bitcoinmagazine.com/articles/the-pirate-saga-and-so-it-ends/

September 12, 2012, Trendon Shavers - Family Contact made
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=109126.0

February 15, 2013 Trendon Shavers - Doxed by debt coillector tldoctor
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=144321.0

   
July 23, 2013,  pirateat40 alias Bitcoin savings and trusts, trendon shavers BUSTED
The SEC alleges that Trendon T. Shavers, the founder and operator of Bitcoin Savings and Trust (BTCST), offered and sold Bitcoin-denominated investments, raising at least 700,000 Btc, or about $4.5 million at the time of the alleged take. That's about $63 million at today's price
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=261243.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=261234.0

https://i.imgur.com/LRf77IO.png

August 19, 2013 德国将比特币归为“货币单位” 全球首个认可其合法地位
The news of his court case was reported worldwide.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278385.0

March 27, 2016, Inducted into Gleb Gamows Piece of Shit Bitcoiners et al. Hall of Fame
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1414944.0;all

https://i.imgur.com/PEYu8Az.png

July 28, 2016, [2016-07-28] deepdotweb.com Trendon Shavers gets 18 months sentence
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1568360.0


Shavers pleaded not guilty to fraud charges in March 2015 but reversed his decision later that year.

The Ponzi scheme had collected money from at least 100 investors. More that 146,000 bitcoins were collected. (worth $807,380 at the time)
Other reports suggest 764,000 bitcoin total.
Shavers admitted that he “royally messed up” and “I don’t think this is something I’m ever going to get over,”

Full plea deal can be seen here:
Plea agreement (https://www.scribd.com/doc/282308549/Shavers-Plea-Agreement?campaign=4417&ad_group=ONLINE_TRACKING_LINK&keyword=Skimbit%2C+Ltd.&source=impactradius&medium=affiliate&irgwc=1) (External link)


This is a work in progress, corrections and additions are welcome. Will be edited if more information becomes available.

Anyone know what happened to Trendon Shavers ?
 https://i.imgur.com/LzT1dYB.jpg

He got 18 months in 2016 so must be out by now.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4432338.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4425909.0

Quite a lot of VIPs lost substantial funds due to this ponzi - some even became considered scammers because of their defaults on loans:

Matthew N. Wright https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=24749
PatrickHarnett https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=26841
Goat - El Cabron  - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=44233

OGNasty / Nastyfans was also affected by this ponzi.

This a led to some members making accusations against Ognasty. OgNasty Ponzi passthrough and ponzi fans.. BTC losses everywhere he goes (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2834153.0)

Why don't you source threads of the time period to tell of OGNasty's part in this, rather than a non-historical witch hunt thread with obvious anti-OG bias based mostly on speculation?

I would like to see all the old threads related to this.. Not this drama..

I thought I had provided a neutral statement on it. That Ognasty / Nastyfans was a victim / investor in the Ponzi and that it led to accusations by some members.

I'm not interested in being involved in this drama -  just documenting what happened. That involves telling multiple sides of the story - sometimes that will contain some bias. Even if I have an opinion on a matter I try to write the historical threads in a neutral manner.

The thread is neither historical nor neutral IMO.. It would also be lone among no competition..

p.s.
I don't want to muddy your cool thread, gust say'n, so I'll clean it up and delete these posts if you like, just say so :)

roflmao.

I know I'm new here but why does this forum support people that run ponzi schemes?


Mr. Nasty discusses his in-depth knowledge of pirate's scheme above and mentions pirateat40 coming out several times saying not to trust him and hints to engaging in illegal activity, all of which Mr. Nasty was aware of..

He had this knowledge while he was participating -- operating as a passthrough -- and -- encouraging new users to join?

This is the most trusted user here?   :o     :o


roflmao

I, for one, respect that.  I've been aware of the Trendon Shavers debacle for a long time now, and it was one of the first big scams I learned about, and it still blows my mind that he was able to pull off such a large ponzi scheme with so much bitcoin.

What I wasn't aware of was OgNasty's involvement in it.  That fact I just learned when the recent scam accusation against him came out in that other thread.  And as I said there, I'm not passing any judgement because I don't know all of the facts--and I haven't been able to muster up the attention span to read through all of TwitchySeal's posts, nor have I ever understood what exactly OgNasty's business is.  I know there's a Nastyfans thing, and there was that passthrough deal with Shavers, but I can't say I understand all the details.

If someone could write a summary of how OgNasty makes his money in a relevant thread, I'd be more than happy to spread some merit around.  All the details are scattered all over this forum and I'm not the best at searching for and compiling information.  It's not my business, but I'm really curious about it.

Edit:  Oh, and that offer I just made above--if someone actually does write up a summary, please drop me a PM since I might not notice it if it's in a thread where I might not find it.

I insured user deposits so they didn't lose all their money when BS&T went belly up.  Everyone was happy that was involved.  I had no insider information or special relationship with pirate.  This necro-bump is the result of another wave of trolling me with lies as payback for my outing Vod's recent behavior (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5136576.0).  It probably should be deleted by mods, but who am I to try and stop the endless forum drama that has made this place such an entertaining soap opera.

I thought you were better than this kind of bullshit xtraelv . I guess I was wrong.

I have neither made a judgement on it nor accused OG of anything. Just reported what was posted on another thread. Likewise I value the comments made by Eddie13 and OgNasty.

Cool story bro.

Maybe one should be suspicious of foul play at any time Vod mentions OG..
Sorry xtraelv, but I think Vod duped you into further extending his drama..

I (and I am pretty damn sure many many other users) think that you are deep in OG's ass, you are so deep in his ass that I am starting to believe that you are his sockpuppet and I KNOW that everyone can click this link and read transcriptTL,DR: CTRL+F ognasty. Everything is explained very well.

Wow, that is quite a compliment..

Sometimes I wonder why I even care because he doesn't give me shit for merits or even give me an inclusion after all the effort I put in trying to see where these stories are straight and where they are not.. As a matter of fact, I consider it very dangerous for me to post a lot of the stuff I post, and quite one sided in this case..
I can see why you would be wondering what I have to gain from it, because I wonder the same thing myself sometimes..

And I did exactly that with that link and commented about it a little ways after Twitchy posted it in that thread..

The 'insurance' you keep mentioning was somewhere around BTC60-BTC80 you set aside for more than BTC2,600 invested.  It was nothing more than a marketing gimmick for you to milk before, during and for the last 7 years anytime your mentioned being involved with a ponzi.  

It didn't make you a scammer though, imo, and I've always made that clear.  

The court document I stumbled on last week, looking at transactions from your wallet during the time frame, and the fact that you posted detailed logs of prompt payments on the first or second of every month from April - July, but nothing for August, and you attack whoever asks about it, makes me pretty sure you stole between BTC400 and BTC1400 from 2-5 investors in August of 2012, and then payed out the paltry reserve on Sept 1.

(I won't make any more posts about it in this thread, if anyone is interested in helping to dig through some 2012 bitcoin txs come on over to the thread or pm me, start with this post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2834153.msg53277993#msg53277993) if you're not caught up)

Side Note: Pretty ironic I have to keep telling people to go read the transcript and they keep saying WitchHunt! and calling me names without addressing any of the actual issues  lol

OG knew it was a scam, as he wrote here. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2834153.msg53315120#msg53315120)

He created a "penny" fund with the intention of offering that up when the ponzi collapsed.  Then he was free to encourage people to deposit as much as possible for as long as possible, maximizing his scam.

What would have ever made you think that? The guy is a clear and undeniable asslicking scammer supporter and imbecile.

This thread is the 2nd clear OG witch hunting meta thread in the last couple of days under the guise of some other neutral board related topic. It was soon latched upon by the SAME people that have been trying to pull OG down with EXTRA DESPERATION since he made it back on to default trust.

1. some of the clear accusations here would get red trust as defamation by their clear double standards usually. We were given 8 red trusts for ASKING hhampuz if he was knowingly hiring scammers AND NOBODY even denied or questioned the evidence we presented. That was apparently LIES and defamation. He we see clear claims of lies, and  stealing with NO conclusive proof at all?? where is their defamation and red trust on their accounts?? DOUBLE STANDARDS to protect their monopoly over DT1.

2.The SAME people here seem the only ones that are claiming it is TRUE without conclusive proof.

3. This is the 2nd thread in the last few days started by KNOWN scammer supporters who want OG removed from DT. Xtraelv and Steamtyme both of whom have been busted for CLEAR and UNDENIABLY double standards and scammer supporting. That at first pretended to be neutral before suddenly being jumped upon by those of the same DT gang that clearly want OG removed from DT.

The reader should note that this is not a clear denial of OG being involved in any wrongdoing since there seems no conclusive proof it seems they are breaking their own self imposed rules that you can not make these kinds of statements without conclusive proof or you are defaming and damaging the illustrious member and board escrow that just returned 500btc after many years.

I think the thread should get back onto the "neutral" subject matter that the OP can PROVE happened rather than the specific witch hunt for POSSIBLE wrong doing of OG.

After all of these years??? then suddenly when OG makes it back to default trust and they are getting DESERVED RED TRUST they get all nostalgic about this specific point...well ONLY THE SAME PEOPLE seem to be getting very nostalgic about it. Strange that those that lost 1400 BTC are not here screaming for their coins isn't it?? where are they?

Seems fishy to me they only start all the OG speculation in real earnest now that he got back on DT1.

DO we have a love of OG?? NO we do not really love OG at all.. he is OKAY. He is far to weak and servile to theymos. He will stand there and not even complain if these systems of control entrench proven scammers with the power to cast honest whistle blowers as scammers. Just says oh it will eventually sort itself out.  He will remove the red paint from lauda a real scammer just because theymos may have brokered a deal. He needs to man up and and start making some wave here and no making ANY DEALS with people like lauda. Tell theymos this system of control is broken ffs. Stand up for those that get abused.

Still there is NO conclusive proof of OG's wrong doing SO FUCKING BRING CONCLUSIVE PROOF before making accusations OR FACE your own self imposed defamation and spread LIES claims. We asked a question and have undeniable evidence of people scamming. You are making clear accusations and have NO conclusive proof at all.

Build your IRON TIGHT case that demonstrates UNDENIABLE WRONG DOING or STFU.

Get back to the NEUTRAL account of proven historical events thanks.


TLDR - there seems NO CONCLUSIVE PROOF of OG's financially motivated wrong doing. There is CLEAR EVIDENCE to suggest these ACCUSATIONS and SPECULATIONS are motivated by a dislike of OG himself and a dislike of of OG getting back on DT recently. These same people are often found attacking OG. These same people are found breaking their own self imposed rules of conclusive proof first or it is defamation and LIES...according to them.  They (rogue dt's) should be flagged red for making such accusations and speculations according to themselves.

Came across this chart the feds made. 
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.txed.146063.4.6.pdf

https://i.gyazo.com/935b6a3a39b2d158dd308a413fdd9c39.png

I guess you must think the same of the post right above which is along the exact same lines.

Bumping this since it relevant now.  OG is claiming his theft did not have any victims... :/

I did not steal anything.  I insured against losses and paid out all of pirates victims that had a policy with me.  Who did I steal from?  Can you name a single person or are you just trying to stir up drama with lies?  It is extremely untrustworthy behavior to make such claims with no evidence.

That's what I'm saying.  You kept the coin pirate returned to you and paid out your penny fund instead.


I already don't trust you - the no evidence claims you keep making against me don't make me trust you more... 

Any funds I received from pirate were paid out to their depositors exactly how they should have been.

You don't trust me because I called you out on your lies and you've now lied yourself into a corner.  Stop spreading your lies and drama throughout the forum.  Nobody appreciates this behavior and it certainly doesn't belong littering the Meta section.  Grow up already.  

Yes, you made a contract that stated if pirate did not pay, you would refund the penny fund.

Pirate repaid you, and you kept the coin.

Three Legendary members became scammers due to you.


But it belongs in the P&S section, where you are following me around?

Grow up.

Nothing but lies.  I have already stated, "Any funds I received from pirate were paid out to their depositors exactly how they should have been."

Seriously Vod, grow up.  No legendary members became scammers due to my paying out insurance to depositors and there isn't a single honest person on this site that appreciates your behavior.

You should stop lying if it bothers you.

And I agreed with you.  They received exactly what they should have if Pirate didn't return the coins.

Pirate returned the coins, and you felt solar panels were more important than this community.

Now you are claiming I paid for my solar panels several years later with funds from pirate?  You are delusional...  See my above bolded statement.

I explained the situation in a little more detail already tonight here:

No, you are making that up. 

I claim you view your possessions as more important than this community. 

No one knows what you spent your stolen coins on.  It certainly wasn't Nastymining.

Putting aside the very strong evidence that you straight up stole from investors:

The ~BTC2,600 that were invested a few weeks before the collapse (August) had a BTC65 'reserve', which was eventually paid out to 4 investors when their ~BTC1,000 combined balance was written off.

I estimate you made well over BTC1,000, risk free, by paying out less than half the interest you received from pirateat to your 'investors'.

But yeah, you put BTC65 aside for when it collapsed. While keeping almost 20x that for yourself and at times having more than 60x that invested. Good for you.

I've posted this before:

OG steals $100 from victim
OG gives victim $20
Victim is ecstatic.

No one who invested with OG ever complained about it. Your personal grudges and jealousy from it are pretty transparent in your actions here.

Judging about 1000's of BTC and how they should have been handled LOL !

Atleast check the purpose of the OP before posting.

That's your opinion; you can't know who was angry.

Also, they didn't know pirate returned the coins.  OG was planning this "insurance scam"  since he found out pirate would soon default.    I'm sure if they were aware, they would have complained.

This is made up fantasy. Your “estimates” are so wildly wrong that it’s ridiculous. No point arguing with people that make things up. Find a victim if you claim I stole something. Spoiler alert: you can’t because I didn’t.



Any funds pirate returned were returned to the depositor that requested them.

The block chain is real.  The forum archives are real.  Math is real.  Not fantasy.  Real. https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2834153.msg30944546#msg30944546

Bitcoin Core didn’t have the easily accessible coin control features back then that it has now. It is a foolish assumption to think that I wasn’t sending funds to depositors from change addresses or occasionally online wallets when I was mobile. I had lots of BTC spread all over the place back then as I supported every Bitcoin service I could find. Your ineptitude and incorrect assumptions are what is real.

None of the above relies on where you sent the payments from.  It's very clear how much you collected for pirateat, how much pirateat paid you, how much of that you returned to investors, and how much went towards 'insuring deposits'.

You posted the logs.

If it’s clear, then how are your numbers so wildly incorrect? You must be missing quite a bit of information and just filling in the blanks with incorrect assumptions. In any event, I was cleared of any wrongdoing long ago, but attacking the person who insured against losses says a lot about those engaging in this behavior. Like they say, no good deed goes unpunished.

You were never investigated, so you were not cleared of anything.

At the time, the authorities didn't care about you.  But now that we've shown you stole at least 1,000 btc, they'll probably be taking a second look.

They subpoenaed all interactions with pirateat40. They have all the information. You on the other hand have no idea what you’re talking about. Considering you are a well documented liar (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5136576.0), this shouldn’t surprise anyone.

I really don’t want to be a part of this petty spat where it clearly doesn’t belong out of respect for the other members of this forum. I’ve explained I insured deposits to help people. I did what I said I would do. There are no victims. This situation was investigated by authorities who cleared me of any wrongdoing. At this point this thread is more about Vod’s bad judgement showing why he shouldn’t be in DT than anything else.

They didn't know you stole 1,000 btc.  Or they would have prosecuted you, right?


Liar.  Show us anything that says you were cleared.


If you had respect for this forum, you wouldn't be pushing a "remove vod from dt" agenda and asking them to ignore a 1,000 btc theft.  :/

These are serious accusations.

I think this community owes it to OG to validate his claim that he was investigated and cleared.  I'll reach out to the SEC, talk to the agent and report what I find.

If he was cleared, then Twitchy and I will need to apologize.

I wish you more success than you had with the IRS you child molesting piece of shit.

I think we all want me to be successful in this, right?   Thanks for the encouragement.

A five-year statute of limitations is imposed under
28 U.S.C. § 2462 for any government “action, suit
or proceeding for the enforcement of any civil fine,
penalty, or forfeiture, pecuniary or otherwise.” In a
2013 opinion, Gabelli v. SEC, 133 S. Ct. 1216 (2013),
the Supreme Court determined that the five-year
period accrues when the fraud is complete, not upon
its discovery.2
 In so doing, the Court set “a fixed date
when exposure to the Government enforcement
efforts ends . . .

So OG, you got away with a very large theft.  The only thing that can touch you now is private lawsuits, but everyone seems to have accepted their losses and moved on.

The blockchain proved you are a thief, and anyone who loves bitcoin can see that. 

Maybe you forgot?  I don't know.

Do you remember what happened in June 2012 for example?

That month pirateat paid you BTC753 in interest, for the money you collected from other people.
You kept BTC451 for yourself (without risking one satoshi) and added BTC15 to the 'insurance/reserve fund'

The investors chopped up the other BTC287

https://i.gyazo.com/09b04dfb0a30b1f8966fae2d85c558e8.png
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=75843.msg987574#msg987574

Not a fantasy.  It's real.

You convinced people to give you money so that you could invest in a ponzi.  You invested nothing, for the month of June 2012 you kept 60% of the payments for yourself, paid them 38%, and set aside 2% as 'reserves'.  You then used that 2% to lure in more investors by convincing them that somehow by putting that 2% aside it was a better investment.

The whole 'If we get BTC2,000 invested, I'll bump up the investor payments by 4%, so go recruit your friends and you'll make more money' is ponzi scheme 101.  Give them a taste, then get them to invest more and tell their friends.

It doesn't matter whether or not you set aside any money, or if you told them there was a risk.  You were running a ponzi.  Period.

No one doubts it was a ponzi.  My issue is how he planned the shut down with Pirate.

• He created a small reserve fund, while continuing to put most of the coin in his pocket.
• He unilaterally changed the contract to say the reserve fun would be paid out if Pirate went default.
• Pirate defaulted, sent OG his coin back, which OG kept to pay out the reserve fund as promised.
• OG claims Pirate kept the coins, people view the reserve fund as a great idea, rather than the scam it was.
  
• OG claims he was investigated and cleared to stop people from investigating further

 

1) OG cannot change the contract without the other person's approval.  Any person OG enforced this contract on has a right to sue him for the balance.
2) The blockchain proof Twitchy provided proves where the coins went.  OG would be forced to settle.
3) Twitchy, I think we need to get as much info as possible and try and create a list of the people OG owes coins to and the amount.   I'm sure these people could use the support right now while OG lounges in his pool.  

I don't see anything ever actually coming of this from any court.

It wasn't worth enough money at the time for the SEC to care, and the 5 year statute of limitations was up long ago.  I've only heard back from one investor, they don't remember exact numbers and records are buried but he lost thousands in multiple pass troughs.  Some like ognastys and some glbse pass-throughs.  I imagine most have a similiar story. 

Lots of people were willing to throw tons of money into obvious ponzi schemes and Og decided to take advantage of them.  They all got fucked every which way and og got away with his little slice quietly, I think all we can do is put the evidence out there and let people decide for themselves.

I agree 100%.   If you can find the blockchain records, we can make an active chart for each ponzi investor that showed
investor name, btc invested vs btc returned and current USD$ price on the difference.

That page can show live values of the $$ OG stole in his ponzi.  One of them may be encouraged enough to hire a lawyer and test the uncharted waters here.  Or the public and local attention OG receives may force him to flee a state yet again.  it might even convince OG to feel for others and get a tang of guilt.