Bitcoin Forum

Sometimes i read stuff in this forum, so ridiculous but completely wrong, what so many people think, because they simply have a very small portion of awareness how the world works and only do quick assumptions on few information

Thinking Bitcoin will help developing Countries is absolutely wrong, situation for developing countries might even get worse.

firstly: mining Bitcoin is happening mostly in developd countries and in developing countries where there are already electricity shortages the mining of bitcoin makes it even worse, leading to higher expenses for electricity which is needed there for educating children, or building schools.

secondly:
Bitcoin increases costs for electricity in the developed world which then makes prices higher for the industrial production of investment goods like machines for farming and many moore, which the people in the developing countries need to develop their country.

thirdly:
Bitcoin changes what the youth in the developed world is doing where bitcoin and cryptocurrencies are more likely to be created mined and earned towards not developing poor countries but now towards fullfilling the greed of those that are running the mining and crypto infrastructure.

Lambo memes are a very good example of that. it represents the greed the pump and dump schemes

and much more.

these crazy falacities come from a curse of life, which comes from the need to do decisions and asumptions based on very few information.

but you know what the biggest joke of all this is?

the people in the developing countries can't do anything about that, they have to accept that.

regards

You're wrong because Bitcoin has already helped and it is still helping developing countries to tap directly into a decentralized financial market especially the skilled citizens.
You seemed to be only concerned about Bitcoin mining, your point would have been more tenable with the title "Those that think mining Bitcoin in developing countries will help those countries are in fallacy" which is also open for debate.

Care to show us one single damn example of cryptos helping developing countries?
Not that bs of Zimbabweans buying BTC when the largest exchange is doing 10 BTC volume per month.

Real life examples of how cryptos are influencing a country's economy.
You have to realize that on the large scale, cryptos are a drop in the ocean.



I agree with this but not because of the same reasons.
From my point of view, it's pretty simple.

The average European has at the end of the month more money left to put in coins than the 3rd world citizen gets in a monthly wage. And slowly and slowly coins will just follow the fiat path, with rich countries owning more coins and poorer countries counting satoshis.
Sad but true, the poor will get poorer. After all this is a capitalist free market, not socialism.

I think it is not only about Bitcoin but the whole blockchain technology which can make a great change in the working and development of the country. Bitcoin is just a successful example of what the power of crypto and blockcahin can do in the world.

We can’t see the impact of bitcoin in our economy when the government is holding it back. How can we see its full potential when we all know that most economists and financial experts is against with it. But for me it doesn’t mean it can’t help a developing country economically. It is a revolutionary cryptocurrency coin in the first place and it does need to win first it’s rightful place in our society before this discussion.

All the factors you have given that bitcoin can't help developing countries are wrong and can be disproved. Access to electricity cost is very low in developing countries than advance economies, with this, more miners can obtain profitability in mining. The only problem is the knowledge of bitcoin mining that is lacking in those countries.

Hm....

Gotta say, I think the idea here is a little to emotionally arguing to be logical.

I'll go over your points.

Firstly, regarding bitcoin mining taking up valuable power around the globe.
Electricity can be thought of as money, here. It could be invested in a light bulb, a washing machine, or an asic miner. And if it makes the most sense (likely from a financial standpoint) to run a miner, instead of those other things, then it will likely happen.
Also, most miners are run in major farms in areas with dirt cheap electric. Not running off the only outlet in some poor village.

I fail to see that this is a problem.

Your second point. You say that bitcoin mining is raising the cost of electricity.

I disagree with that. If power companies are selling more power, generally they can afford to do so at a cheaper rate. That's why people buy things wholesale for cheaper than an individual unit.
If you have any proof that bitcoin is raising the cost of electricity for other people, I'd love to see it shared.

Thirdly. You are talking about people wanting to increase their wealth, like it is a bad thing. The lambo jokes are just that. --Jokes.

But even if they aren't, was bitcoin supposed to make humans all philanthropists?
Were we all going to join hands and give prayers of thanksgiving, because bitcoin made everyone a millionaire?
Seriously?


Bitcoin has, and will help third world countries. Just by virtue of existing.
It gives access to a fair, and uncorruptible monetary system. How many third world countries have those?
It allows anyone in the world to send, and receive payment in a functional currency for services rendered. (I have to admit, I have no idea what the national currency in Nigeria is, but bitcoin transcends the local requirements, and gives us all a basis for interacting with each other.)


Those are two freedoms that no one in the world had, until bitcoin came along. And now it is freely available to all corners of the world. That is helping.

And that isn't all of the good that blockchain technology will do for developing countries. Smart contracts, stablecoins, truly anonymous currencies, and so much more are coming, and being adopted by these places.

If you think that this only exists to make the rich richer, it is my opinion you are being narrow minded.
The banks didn't need any help. They were doing just fine, subjugating the world.

But now. Now there is an alternative. Now there is a choice. Now there is freedom.

I myself wouldn't think that way. Bitcoin never the economy of a certain country. Bitcoin is decentralized in nature, how can it help develop a country? It is indeed a fallacy and some are claiming that bitcoin is helping in the growth and development of a certain country which is not. Maybe some organizations involved in bitcoin making donations to certain countries that made people think that it helped them.

Bitcoin right now is not in a position to help a whole country or nation, it can help some individuals who can use it as a tool to achieve better financial freedom but until bitcoin operates in the way that was set out by Satoshi in his vision then it will not help those in developing countries, similarly though it won't help developed countries as a whole, just individuals within the country. The vision of bitcoin is one on a macroeconomic level not a microeconomic level which is where it is currently functioning.

The bitcoin certainly can not be used as a solution to develop a poor country, in addition to expensive equipment and electricity, bitcoin also still have a big risk in terms of price.

cryptocurrencies have even less humanist goals, for example bitcoin straight forward just wastes ressources, that could have been used for the development of social structures.

but central banking is a bad alternative.

regards

in societies where there is a shortage of employees maintaining powerplants, bitcoin drives prices, and moves away electricity away from the poor.



then be honest about what bitcoin is, its just an annyoing propaganda coin.
shall we now have an internet overgarbaged with propagandacoins, searching for money earning cattle?
one thing will be for sure.

milliond and billions of people will be reteached towards a completely different lession, in a world with 60.000 or millions of propagandacoins created to look for money earning cattle

->working for money isnt worth it. we had such a world in the past. btw.

money then becomes just a worthless and useless toy. some old men think is valuable.


its not a fair monetary system, its a pyramid system around a miner cartel that pushes it. what about the other bitcoins btw. why not them?
solving problems in third world is much easier than with bitcoin, you create a coin, and pay jobless people with it that have drilled a well.

regards


we will have a new fractioning, the banksters and their neofeudalism are main cause for bitcoin being popular in the first place.


no its not freely available, it is being sold for national currencies, for gods and services. and so are 50.000 altcoins.



ohm jes and they will create even worse pyramid systems we had in the world before.

jes it is this way, establishment of a cryptocurrency is not for free its a huge swamp of corruption that has to be passed, that image will follow you.


jes freedom for the rich. for those creating the ponzischemes.

but i am afraid the world was always this way will never change.

I'm not sure, how it helps the developing countries. For me bitcoin will grow high when it is adopted by developing countries. From experts research I believe it has got the potential to make the countries facing economic difficulties can get rid of it through bitcoin adoption or usage in the right manner.

Blockchain technology and so bitcoin will cause the world to be more interconnected, free financially. It will lead to increase in equality of opportunity so for third world countries it is good.

more interconnected or rulled by a corrupt internet propaganda system?

whats with the other 60.000 cryptocurrencies why arent they listed as well?

they didnt payed as good as ripple didnt they?

or the ponzi schemers around bitcoin litecoin etc.

Pros and cons are everywhere and in every system but that doesn't make a particular system look bad. Apart from all other technical nitty gritties like connected networks or distributed public ledger etc., I can proudly say that bitcoin has given me financial freedom. Is it anything less where the governments have failed to provide us jobs and security??

Bitcoin is certainly not a magic wand which will develop a county drastically overnight. Every revolution takes time to take shape and it has already started. It is not a fallacy but a reality.

Ponzi business was in existance since the fiat. Does it make fiat look bad? The issue is with the negative minds that plays negative role in any ecosystem.

Blockchain technology helps developing countries to develop their economies! The BTC is also playing some role!
For example, in Venezuela, their legal currency has collapsed and they conduct daily transactions through BTC. There are also many BTC mines in Venezuela!

     I think it helps the developing countries through the economic growth changes. Bitcoin contributed already changes in many developing country that's why most of this countries makes bitcoin legal because they know what bitcoin can do, not only to the people's lives but also the development of a country in different aspect.

The primary benefit developing countries may realize from Bitcoin adoption regards USD hegemony -- the dollar's use as a tool to extract resources and wealth from poor countries. If BTC were to become a global reserve currency -- supplanting the USD -- it could certainly improve the position of developing/exporting countries vis-a-vis the USA.

Take the World Bank, for example. It makes high-interest USD-denominated loans to poor governments. That USD is necessarily used to buy US exports, fueling US growth while saddling developing countries with usurious debt. Bitcoin as a global reserve could help alleviate the current debt bondage relationship between rich and poor countries.

There's also US sanctions to consider.


I think the point of Bitcoin was to channel rational greed into sound money. Why do you assume this greed is fundamentally bad? What net negatives will Bitcoin bring to society, in your view?

it doesnt, its the companies and their workers that do that. weather a country gets developed depends on those people work,

the currency is just a tool for that.

so instead of someoen comming from the developing countries central bank to a german construction company now someone will come from a decentral cryptobusiness. nothing has changed, labour is still limited, ressources still limited, qualified work still limited, etc

the problem is that the amount of people working for money is still limited.

There is a limit on how much energy we can produce, if things were so simple we would all be paying 01.cents (10% of a cent) per kw and we would have 10TW hair dryers.

Thre is a limit how many hydro plants we can build, there is a limit how much ga we can burn and even how many windmills you can put up.



Yeah? Do they?
It's pretty interesting to hear that people who live on a wage worth 5$ a month are doing transactions over BTC and paying each time 5-10 cents for a tx.

And I'm pretty sure they do a lot of mining, with power failures every hour and days with no power at all, what could be better to ROI.

Prety funny a lot of those articles promoting how Venezuelans are using bitcoin started in December and January when the average bitcoin tx fee was twice to four times the monthly wage in Venezeuala...




Those "poor" governments, how did they come in power? Not with the help of their own people?
You know what country took one of the biggest loans from the WB? It was South Korea!!! How are they doing? Poor? Flooded by US exports?

Of course this could become a very complex argument.

However there can be no argument against decentralised trustless networks compared to centralised control that requires trust.

You want a level playing field for all then going decentralised and trustless is the way forward. BTC may not be perfect but give it time.

Mining is only part of the picture, there are many factors to consider.

Note the difference between "poor countries" and "poor governments." Governments come to power with varying levels of popular participation and mandate, but coercion and violence are always involved. Anyway, that's not relevant here.

Where does your information on South Korea come from? The World Bank data (https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/DT.DOD.MWBG.CD?locations=KR&view=chart&year_high_desc=true) lists no outstanding loans in 1960, 1970, 2014, or 2016. But, poor countries? I see $52 billion in outstanding loans from Sub-Saharan Africa alone. This (https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries) and this (http://blog.therules.org/money-exposing-a-system-of-extraction/) explains how that contributes to wealth extraction from poor countries:

I totally disagree with this statement because I also believe that bitcoin is a key for development. It can create a way for innovation of country if it wil be justa accepted. Many opportunities are waiting once a country started to adopt the system of bitcoin. I know that bitcoin now is a part of modern world so be involved with it.

Of course there are no outstanding loans, because SK has paid them all back.
Even the 3 billion they've received in 1997 during the Asian crisis they've repaid it in less than 3 months!!!!

http://pubdocs.worldbank.org/en/754261483515257926/Korea-Timeline.pdf


Oh, but it is!!!!

It's like a guy takes a loan, buys a tractor, starts a farm and is doing great while 10 others use their money for hookers and booze and the fault lies with the bank lending them money. Legit!!!!

How did SK manage to build all its infrastructure with the WB and the Sub-Saharian states not?
Probably the problem is not with the one lending money but with the ones getting those loans?

Watch this movie (the best starts from that moment) , it's a Chinese telling the Africans the same story, I doubt he is a CIA or WB shill...
https://youtu.be/1a-QpyF7rNc?t=4390
 

The benefits outweigh the downsides.

I'm going to zoom out from bitcoin, and go to all crypto.

Let's say I live in a third world country. (Lucky enough not to, but there for the Grace of God, go I.)
I can send money instantly for insanely cheap fees, to anywhere in the world. (Not BTC alone. BCH, Doge, ETH, LTC, Etc... There are better currencies for transfer, than bitcoin).

The government can't stop, and tax my money. They can't confiscate it from me. (Without my passphrase, anyway.)

Let's say I want to document crimes against the people. If I put it on the steem blockchain, it can't be removed by a propaganda arm of any government. I have documented it far more permanently than any conventional methods could have done.

Let's say I can't afford a lawyer, but wish to conduct a business trade. Grab an open source ETH smart contract, and I can conduct business without outside entities, and can have a fairly executed deal.

If I don't want anyone in my country to know I have money, or know where I send it, I can use Monero, or ZCash, or any of the privacy cryptocurrencies.

These things allow everyone a shot at some of the luxuries we take for granted in more affluent countries.
And I don't think "muh electric" is reason enough to try to subjugate the people in third world countries trying to claw their way up to a better life. They are going to need these tools.

You make a genuine point OP and I agreed with what you said concern the developing countries mining, pump and dump scheme but all that is not an obstacles or something which will hindered developing countries from doing bitcoin though cause they can still do the trading, bounty and sign campaign part.

How does that address what I said? One member country being able to repay their loans says nothing about my point, that the lending infrastructure is used to extract wealth (https://www.theguardian.com/global-development-professionals-network/2017/jan/14/aid-in-reverse-how-poor-countries-develop-rich-countries):



Seriously? Your answer is that "Koreans buy tractors and start farms but Africans use their money for hookers and booze"? What possible evidence do you have for these comparisons? Next, are you going to say that Africans have smaller brains, too?

I gave you two well-sourced links that give much more compelling explanations than that.

And just to be clear, I only mentioned the World Bank because they issue loans in USD. The IMF, WTO and dishonest multinationals are also important parts of the wealth extraction infrastructure.

Already we could find such happenings in Venezuela.E ven in Nigeria too,i heard that it has become a main source of income for its citizens.Under developed countries which lack opportunities for earning could use bitcoin to increase earnings.

It is true that bitcoin will not help developing countries greatly, but if it can help a little bit which matters most. I think bitcoin can help the youth of the developing countries a lot.

No bitcoin has no greater impact on the country's economy right now. Today there are far way greater problems of the economy than bitcoin.

It is just on it'd developing period and I don'r think it is a much greater helpto the developing country either

The fallacy of what, I think for the fallacy of economys problem. You can see what affect those country get if bitcoin has their own regulation and all of their society using it, there are gonna be a lot od movement of course.

I personally believe bitcoin will help the developing countries because most of the problem of the developing countries are from their government act of corruption and this usually occur in Africa. Mind you, cryptocurrencies has the key to national liberation cause of it decentralized in nature which give people personal financial freedom from government.

 Isn't thats the reason behind bitcoin creation?
Don't tell me you don't know.

I think the long-term the existence of "global currencies" without imposed barriers should benefit developing countries. But the OP is right, that the current Bitcoin distribution is extremely focused on "first-world countries". That could change, however ... remember when Nigeria was on the first place at Google Trends when searching for the word "Bitcoin"? And there is also the possibility that alt-coins with a better geographic distribution could emerge and rival Bitcoin.

A little comment to the Africa/SK discussion: Poor governance is often (not always!) correlated with poor education standards. It's not the fault of persons without minimal education about politics and economics (and have no chance to achieve that without help, because they must work 12-16 hours a day to survive) that they aren't that informed like Europeans (or South Koreans) when it comes to elect a government. And regarding Africa, more than half of the countries are authoritarian regimes, and even if there are elections, there's very difficult for people to change something via voting.

It addresses it perfectly.
One country gets loans, is investing it using the brain and is able to pay it back in full.
Other countries which use those loans for social programs in order to bribe the masses find out that at the end of the year there is nothing left to payback and there are no prospects of ever paying it back



No, they didn't buy tractors, they bought machinery to build a tractor factory :D.
That's the difference between SK or RSA or even Marroco and the rest of the poor countries.

And those well-trusted sources...let's dig a bit about one of them, especially the Guardian, a leftist piece of shit that has brought us other well-documented articles:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/07/venezuela-not-greece-latin-america-oil-poverty
 (http://Sorry, Venezuela haters: this economy is not the Greece of Latin America)
 ;D ;D ;D
Of course Venezueala is suffering also because of the FMI and the WB, not because of the Chavez and Maduro regimes.



Nope, size doesn't matter when it comes to brains.
But you see, there was an economic superpower in Africa ...till...it's kind of hard to ignore this example....


It's not me it's the Chinese from that video saying it....watch the full video if you can't have the African experience first hand.
But don't blame the poverty in Africa on the WB,FMI, Illuminati and other.
Blame it on stupidity, and Africa is full of it!!!!!


Eastern Europe had no election at all till the '90.
Yet things changed  ;D.

I think that btc had helped developing countries in some way like joining signature campaigns and earning profit. At least btc was able to give the people a sort of livelihood job for the many people earning with below tolerable income. This way, jobless, unemployed and underemployed people from the 3rd world would agree that btc is something like an opportunity for them to earn money through bounty campaigns.

 could it help, or could not, I think initially all of it depends on humanity, people can take whatever and make good or bad it's all our choice, so even with bitcoin and decentralized financial system we can do better if we would want it to be better

That's the reaskn why some third- world countries ban the operation of bitcoin in their country specifically bitcoin mining. I don't see actually why they do so because mining isn't a very rewarding method to earn after all, there are other ways to earn bitcoin's which are relatively easier to do and are cheaper unlike mining which is very expensive and complex for the common people to do.

I believe that bitcoin will lead to the rationality and accuracy of money handling. after all, in the case when you keep bitcoin at yourself - you should be very careful in their spending and storage. no one will help you in case of loss