Bitcoin Forum

Bitcoin: Revolution Or Trap?

In the Internet’s early days there was general agreement that one of the first killer apps would be some form of cyber currency. Since money was already largely non-corporeal, existing as entries in bank accounts and ready to spend with plastic cards, the next logical step would be to move the whole thing online and dispense with paper and coins and their costly and burdensome infrastructure of banks, regulators and printing presses. The emergence of such currencies would, in this optimistic scenario, consign relics like the dollar and the Fed to history’s circular file and usher in an era of trust, stability, and growth similar to what occurred under the classical gold standard.

But the digital liberation of money turned out to be easier said than done, as the first wave of cyber-currencies came and went without much of an impact. eCash, for instance, was an encrypted, anonymous payment system that allowed anyone anywhere to send and receive instant payments. But it relied on the existing banking infrastructure, and because “anonymous” meant “money laundering” to the police, it faced extreme pushback from authorities who viewed such currencies as primarily empowering drug dealers – and from banks that saw no point in encouraging the competition. Only one small bank ever accepted eCash, and the currency died a quiet death a few years after its introduction.

http://www.investing.com/analysis/bitcoin:-revolution-or-trap-201100

The real revolution will come from disbanding all forms of money together.  Money facilitates greed and our actions should be measured not by the wealth they accumulate but by the impact they leave on humanity.

https://i.imgur.com/Og12gXB.jpg
Sorry, couldn't resist

Be practical. Without money, the society cannot function. Barter is not fail-proof.

+1, current society for sure. Maybe in 100 or 200 years there will be some alternative but atm we can only dream.

This is a fallacy.  Money does not make the world go round, we do.  Why couldn't we live in the exact same manner as we do today without money?  Sure, we would have to abandon business models and systems that are obsolete, but this would only leave a larger workforce to contribute directly to man kind.

We would be multitudes more efficient if we did not think what can we do to make the most money but what can we do to help the most people.  Bartering isn't even necessary, everyone can contribute through volunteerism, we would be trading energy rather than material goods.  This is the only true path to complete freedom and world peace.

Money? Gold & silver?

I think it is a great breakthrough, like the torrent technology.

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

It could be both you know. It's a revolution because it's a currency that is indipendant - fuck banks. But it may also be worth nothing in a year or two (lets hope not tho eh).

No thanks. I like my markets.

Do you like the tyranny, war, poverty and enslavement that come with it?

If there is no money, then:

1. How will you store or stockpile your reserves (for hard times, such as drought or famine) ?
2. If barter is not available, then how you will purchase the things you need?
3. How will you pay your taxes?

Money should be used as a pricing mechanism for goods and services.  That's really the only purpose it should serve, it allows economies of scale to function by creating a single fungible unit of exchange that has value to anyone who receives of sends it.

The concepts of M1 money supply, quantitative easing, controlling interest rates, are all functions of big government and politics.  The adoption of BTC is a complete shift from these policies, I am surprised all the time that government has not intervened quicker.

It is revolutionary.  It is a way to break away from the stranglehold banks, credit cards, etc have on doily commerce.

Well I think what's interesting about Bitcoin is that it raises big and important questions about what money is and whether we need it. I detect a certain anarcho communism in some of the replies which suggest we can live without money (not something I'm averse to, but very difficult to achieve).

I think David Graeber is interesting here and his book Debt: A 5000 Year History. He makes some interesting claims based on extensive anthropological research and some leftie anarchist sympathies. Here are some of the points he makes in the book that are relevant to the debate about money:

1. While we think that money came from barter there is no anthropological evidence for this, actually the way villages often operated before money existed is people would do each other favours, there would be a strong sense of obligation. For example somebody gives you some milk, so next time you pay them back with a piece of meat; and the anthropological evidence from ancient civilisations (like Mesepotania) suggests this is what happened rather than barter. His argument is that barter is a myth generated by the economists, which has become entrenched and seen as common sense.

2. The idea of debt or obligation pre-existed money, so we have this idea of doing each other favours. In villages somebody would give someone a favour and the other person would try and do a bigger favour in turn. These communities based around reciprocal responsibilities and returning favours have existed for a long time before money. Graeber argues that money came into existence because governments (or rather monarchies) needed to fund wars and money was an effective means of orchestrating this.

3. Finally, we do these things today don't we? Say you buy a group of friends a beer, and you expect them to get you a beer later but if you are a nice bloke (or lady) you don't worry about it if they don't. However, if they really are your friends another time you will be in a bar and they will get you a beer. In a sense this kind of transaction is not based on exchange because you do not buy the beer because they will buy you one, its more a sense of an obligation you have. Graeber is an anarchist so he thinks these aspects of human behaviour can become the basis for an alternative society.

Anyhow its an interesting book. So regarding the points that were made earlier about why we need money:

1. How will you store or stockpile your reserves (for hard times, such as drought or famine) ?
2. If barter is not available, then how you will purchase the things you need?
3. How will you pay your taxes?

Well none of these things are essential if you can imagine an alternative society in which is based on people helping one another and doing each other favours. People lived in societies without money a few thousands of years ago.

Finally going back to Bitcoin, I don't think its the answer to all our problems but it is important because it is a technological invention that allows us to question the money system and the problems it causes. Bitcoin also shows us that alternative systems are possible.

atm over 4 billion people (the poor) do not have access to cyber currency, some form of currency or trade would still have to exist here

1. Resources would be abundant without government regulations, sanctions or wealth disparities preventing populations from having stuff.
2. You can barter if you want, but if do, you're exchanging the positive energy you get from helping someone for a material thing.
3. Serious?  How would I let organized criminal cartels steal from me?  I wouldn't.

1.Sometimes lack of government regulation makes resources extremely scarce.

A coca-cola factory opened in an area in India that was scarce in water. Farmers lost their revenues and livelyhood and currently have to work away from their community for ridiculously low wages.
Source: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWSjWWsFy9g

Lack of government regulation would mean that pollution would be rampant affecting everyone's health. It's bad enough as it is.

2. I only smoke the dankest reefer. Whaaaa? I'm just kidding. I just run out of steam for this post.

Corporations would not be a menace to society without a dollar to feed the cogs.

It's not a trap nor revolution - it's more likely to say evolution as it's like the new era of financial world is coming and it's going to change also the worldview on finance, politics and culture.

Once we have matter energy transport, allowing us to live anywhere, and food replication, allowing us to no longer farm, it will free up vast numbers of resources and reduce the requirements for people to be wage slaves for life for peanuts.. I look forward to that day. I suspect the power structure won't want to give up their power base and ability to make money off the backs of others so easily though... the change will take time.....  as for having no money, that will take a very long time... human nature dictates certain people lust for power, status, and wealth, and as long as these people exist, there are going to want to acquire more and more of these resources. I am not one such individual however I know some that are.

Bitcoin is something that will phase out current financial system that is flawed. It only takes education and current generations will happily accept the fact they use "internet money" as long as it's widely accepted and saves them all fees they accumulate over life time and pay to banks.

Next generations will have to learn to be more efficient, truly cost-effective and to provide a product or a service for ever lower cost that is build to last (just like in the good old days - a coffee table that lasts 2 generations - none of the ikea crap).

We're adding more zeros after the dot as far as I remember - having said that, as long as old currencies are in use, there will be inflation in the real world, thus hopefully 1 bitcoin will be worth a small fortune in near future.

With the  automation of production and eventually contruction, transport and farming everything will become cheap to the point when we balance out renewable energy, resources and needs (not greeds) of every human in the world. So cheap, it becomes free. That will be the moment, when bitcoin will serve its final purpose - transform us into truly free society, with no money, no goverments and politicians. All systems running open source, for people by the people of the world that has no longer artificial political boundaries, but is the way it looks from the outer space. A blue green dot living in harmony, like a single organism, not a bunch of idiots high on their greed playing "who's got the biggest cock" game.

If you don't know venus project, google it - it's very inspirational. Jacque Fresco is a true visionary. I think he was missing this piece of a puzzle - bitcoin - something that will allow societies to knock down just another wall that divides us - old school centralized economy.

There is a much more valuable commodity we could be exchanging.  The commodity being energy.  Happiness, peace.

Imagine being paid in gratitude.  And buying goods in gratitude.  Imagine a society that shares as one giant family, people would have more peace than ever before.

While money is not good nor bad, it is a tool that facilitates greed.  It corrupts the mind, for it's very purpose is to wager possessions.  So long as we limit ourselves with greed, we will not experience the limitless positivity that each of us is capable of feeling.  As long as you can buy another man's soul for the benefit of your own wealth, corruption will exist.

Another disturbing angle involves the growing cyber-war capabilities of the US and other major nations. In the aggregate they are throwing tens of billions of dollars each year at developing the tools to hack virtually any system. If they gain access to the algorithm that governs the increase in the supply of a given crypto-currency – or figure out how to intercept transactions en route from buyer to seller – they would be able to hijack that currency for their own ends, either to finance themselves or punish/control those who depend on it. As Catherine Austin Fitts says, “Anybody who thinks the government can’t control crypto-currencies is just dreaming.”

This lack of physical reality ultimately means that crypto-currencies can’t, in our opinion, be considered “money.” That is, they function beautifully as a currency, but as a store of value they are suspect because they lack a corporeal existence. So they’re not an appropriate place for one’s life savings.

But don’t count them out. Given the speed with which other Internet applications – and the Internet itself – have evolved from techie playthings to essential tools of modern life, it’s easy to envision crypto-currencies traveling the same path. They have the potential, once their kinks are ironed out, to function as an efficient online currency in a gold-base