Bitcoin Forum

I think "HYIP cartel" are using Bitcoin for their 200% to 400% profit per month HYIP programs/ponzis since Bitcoin is anonymous and unregulated.

HYIP programs pay high profits for 2 to 3 years and then they shut down.

BTC is the most genious scam in the history.

yes you are correct. bitcoin is a scam so please sell the coins that you have so desperately been buying and leave us dumb people be in our scam in peace  :-*

b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.

In economics, hyperinflation is very high and typically accelerating inflation. It quickly erodes the real value of the currency, as the prices of most or all goods increase. This causes people to minimize their holdings in that currency as they usually switch to more stable foreign currencies.[1] Prices typically remain stable in terms of other currencies.

Unlike low inflation, where the process of rising prices is protracted and not generally noticeable except by studying past market prices, hyperinflation sees a rapid and continuing increase in nominal prices, the nominal cost of goods, and in the supply of money.[2] Typically, however, the general price level rises even more rapidly than the money supply as people try ridding themselves of the devaluing currency as quickly as possible. As this happens, the real stock of money (i.e., the amount of circulating money divided by the price level) decreases considerably.[3]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation

Seems to me that you can't really describe the price drops of Bitcoin as hyperinflation. That term is reserved for national currencies.
I'm not an economist though, I'm sure someone else could explain it better. Just adding some counter arguments.

yes, thats correct. viability of such ROIs in such period of time, is impossible.

In market btc is the first crypto currency in the world based on this crypto currency is depend on btc so you need to know what is scam and what is real so you should know the proper idea of it based on this you can’t tell like this because I think you have lack of knowledge of btc.

Those who want to believe in BTC at all cost, should avoid this topic.
To help some people, who started to think about the core concept of bitcoin, my judgement is:

1) The blockchain part or "mining" in case of BTC is a special kind of scam. For getting a coin You must invest into electricity and computing power. In return You get VERY little chance to be awarded with a coin. This chance is so small, it is mathematically ridiculous, but in practise. ZERO! Nada, ничтo, nichts... What kind of decent money is that, that everyone can apply by spending real money but only few of many millions are actually given by basis of pure luck?

Before You attack my opion, try to give logical answer to these questions:

a) why is BTC quantity limited with 21 millions? What limits it?

b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.

c) why is blockchain technology better in 99,99% of transactions, than regular private/public key technology?

e) if BTC had at more or less decent chance to boom again, why dont all the richest investors in world buy it?

Maybe it wasnt planned so, but BTC is the most genious scam in the history.

Previous doesnt mean, You absolutely can not make any money in it. The same goes for ponzis and pyramids. If You go in or out right time, You will earn and at some cases earn well!

How excatly is Bitcoin a scam? It doesn't fit under any definition of scam. It especially doesn't fit under the definition of Ponzi or Pyramid scheme.

Let's make it simple,even if it is mathematically ridiculous,as long as more people come to support it,it will become real.No matter how it works,if more people demand bitcoin,of course it will be used and the price will keep in the volatile state.

P.S. all of the answer is logical according to myself


"mining" supposed to be voluntary and the volunteer get rewarded, not for profit. Also, there's mining-pool to ensure you always get something.

Nope, mining is CLAIMED to be voluntary, but it is driven by price of BTC. People make communities and buy special equipment, to increase their mining odds. And there will NOT always be something to mine. It is confirmed, that number of released coins halves every 5 years. Thats mathematically exponential and will drop to nothing - there will be nothing left to mine.


This statement doesn't make sense, explain it more detail.

One primary quality of frauds is, that there is absence of real product behind deals. Now, if product is very unreasonably uneffective, its the same, as its missing at all. It is estimated, that 1 transaction of BTC takes same amount of power, than household in week. Now, thats just not viable product.


Because Satoshi Nakamoto set it to 21 million and it's coincidence with biggest number of 64-bit floating point number even though there are many other speculation.
But there's no limit and you can change the production/total supply, you just need community approval.

It´s essentially the same, as Nakamoto told, there is 21 million ounces of gold to find, when it finishesh of, community decides, there is more. Both parts of last sentence are not serious.


That's the risk of truly decentralized currency, the exchange price to fiat can be manipulated easily. Also, you already answer the point.

That´s correct, if we have risky business on real product/service. Thats what I am saying: we DONT have a product behind here.


Who claim that?

Enthusiasts. There are very few privileges in BTC compared to, say Paypal. Thats not in accordance with electry consumtion.


There's plenty of explanation about asymmetric cryptography, so of course most bitcoiner already know about it.

They dont understand, that everybody uses it already. Its not an edgeof BTC.


Because investor don't know or don't believe the potential of Bitcoin.

Because they are smarter, than market in average.


Isn't it obvious that miners still get paid by fees in transaction that they included in mined block?

Its not. If one transaction takes same power, than household in week, the price would be not competitive

It does. If the core concept is not viable, its basically the same as there is no real product behind. It is assumed, that 1 transaction takes same amount of energy as household in 1 week. Its so unreasonably expensive, that it makes transactions impossible in large volume.

https://digiconomist.net/bitcoin-energy-consumption

Just think about it and You see, Im right.

Those who want to believe in BTC at all cost, should avoid this topic.
To help some people, who started to think about the core concept of bitcoin, my judgement is:

1) The blockchain part or "mining" in case of BTC is a special kind of scam. For getting a coin You must invest into electricity and computing power. In return You get VERY little chance to be awarded with a coin. This chance is so small, it is mathematically ridiculous, but in practise. ZERO! Nada, ничтo, nichts... What kind of decent money is that, that everyone can apply by spending real money but only few of many millions are actually given by basis of pure luck?

2) The coin part of BTC is a monetary fraud. Although people make transactions voluntarely, they are cheated with the very core concept of BTC. While blockchaining may have some usage as a concept as well as cryptocurrency, it does still not mean that BTC is legit.

Before You attack my opion, try to give logical answer to these questions:

a) why is BTC quantity limited with 21 millions? What limits it?
b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.
c) why is blockchain technology better in 99,99% of transactions, than regular private/public key technology?
d) do You really understand, what is private/public key crypto and blockchain in its core, or they just sound cool?
e) if BTC had at more or less decent chance to boom again, why dont all the richest investors in world buy it?

Maybe it wasnt planned so, but BTC is the most genious scam in the history.

Previous doesnt mean, You absolutely can not make any money in it. The same goes for ponzis and pyramids. If You go in or out right time, You will earn and at some cases earn well!

After reading your message, I have a question for you??? Have you lost a lot of money when buying bitcoin???? Apparently Yes, and this is called the cry of your soul that I did not have time to earn good money. I pity you. And I am sad to read such messages where a person is trying to turn the world around and make everyone guilty except himself. Or is this your way of asserting yourself???

The amount of electricity consumed has nothing to do with the network throughput. Bitcoins electricity consumption has to do with security. There doesn't need to be this much electricity being used to power Bitcoin. Bitcoin would function just fine if there was half the electricity being used, or even less than that. There are just a lot of miners mining right now because of the gold rush. Bitcoins second layer, the lightning network, will completely solve Bitcoins transaction throughput. The lightning network uses a negligible amount of electricity too.

a) why is BTC quantity limited with 21 millions? What limits it?

b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.

c) why is blockchain technology better in 99,99% of transactions, than regular private/public key technology?

d) do You really understand, what is private/public key crypto and blockchain in its core, or they just sound cool?

e) if BTC had at more or less decent chance to boom again, why dont all the richest investors in world buy it?

Maybe it wasnt planned so, but BTC is the most genious scam in the history.

1) The blockchain part or "mining" in case of BTC is a special kind of scam. For getting a coin You must invest into electricity and computing power. In return You get VERY little chance to be awarded with a coin. This chance is so small, it is mathematically ridiculous, but in practise. ZERO! Nada, ничтo, nichts... What kind of decent money is that, that everyone can apply by spending real money but only few of many millions are actually given by basis of pure luck?

2) The coin part of BTC is a monetary fraud. Although people make transactions voluntarely, they are cheated with the very core concept of BTC. While blockchaining may have some usage as a concept as well as cryptocurrency, it does still not mean that BTC is legit.

There is no mathematical or logical truth in your post. Here are the answers to your questions.


Majority consensus of the users limits it. If a minority tries to change the limit, the minority is exiled.

Majority didnt set cap of BTC ever released, founders of this scheme did.


Decentralized money removes the control over its use by any third party. Volatility can be a problem now, but it won't always be a problem (hopefully).

Yes, it wont be soon. End of BTC is very close. You will see it very soon. Btw, You argue with Your own first point. You promised, minority will be exiled, now You tell, third party can not touch my coin. So can You or not? Do You even understand how impossible it is, what You speak?


The blockchain removes the need for trust in a third party to manage a common pool of value. Bitcoin uses public key cryptography, but public key cryptography isn't sufficient all by itself.

You know nothing about basics of cryptography and computing, right?


Many people don't understand it, but understanding it is not necessary in order to use Bitcoin.

Indeed. To "invest" into something, thats highly volatile and You have no clue about, what is it... Ingenious.


Many are skeptical, and many oppose it because their wealth and well-being are dependent on the survival of legacy currency systems. Either way, unanimous belief in the success of Bitcoin is not required for its success.

Nope, they would not mind to earn 1000% ROI, their well-being would be very high:) They just understand it is very likely a scam.


In order for it to be a scam, someone must be the scammer. Who is the scammer?

Thats an easy answer. As in every scam - early enthusiasts. Bitcoin was first released 10 years ago, right? Despite that 81% of BTC is already released during 10 years! Now the fun part! 19% remaining will be released during next 20 years! Purest scam ever!!


It may be small, but it is not zero, even in practice. Many people earn money from mining, so it can't be zero.

A bit bad language usage here. Its not zero mathematically, its collective ROI is zero! That means, the moment You start mining, You can not assume mathematically, that ROI of mining itself will be positive.


It is not monetary fraud. Where is the fraud? People are not cheated by the concept. How can they be cheated by a concept? BTC is legit. You have provided no information at all to back up your claim.

Fraud is there: people are promised UFO technology, a revolution in money transfers. It will not work, because its impossible!! I provided no information??? I have told You all facts and calculations, all You do, is trying to convince me, Im wrong. Math is not wrong. Can You read graphs? Look any at those, that even You dont deny! For example release frequency of coins! What are the miners going to be paid with until 2040 if 81% of coins are at early scammers already? THINK!

I havent lost a penny. I just see, that this scheme is much bigger, than anything before it. Few people, who listen me, save a lot of money.
I was in a team, who brought down KairosPlanet scheme, which too milked many people empty, while authorities refused to blacklist it. So in other words: I help people, who are trying sincerely invest money to avoid scam.

I think "HYIP cartel" are using Bitcoin for their 200% to 400% profit per month HYIP programs/ponzis since Bitcoin is anonymous and unregulated.

HYIP programs pay high profits for 2 to 3 years and then they shut down.

I was expecting hard math and logic supported by corroborating data analysis

I got noob nonsense that meant nothing.

/thread

these kind of threads need to be on junior discussion boards not the main boards.

Where's the point in that, if You don't understand even simple sentences.

If 17 million coins are released until now and 4 million will be released during 24 years, its a pyramid. Not my fault, You are unable to understand it.

Answer to question 1:
Mining precious metals work exactly the same way. If Gold was easy to find, everybody would be into Gold Mining... this is why Gold is valuable.
 Gold despite being scare can be mined by anybody but you have to put in a lot of work to be successful. If you go into mining, your finds should be in proportion to the energy/effort you put into mining. Same thing is applicable to Bitcoin mining.
The creator of Bitcoin clearly understood this fact. He didn't need to copy governments fraudulent way of printing monies that aren't commensurate with their real values.
Unfortunately not a lot of people are into Bitcoin mining. I expect it to be more decentralized than Gold Mining. Small scale miners should exist in Bitcoin like they are in Gold.

Question 2:  Why is Bitcoin limited to 21million? 
To make it scarce and as limited as Gold. Gold and other precious metals are limited too.

Those who want to believe in BTC at all cost, should avoid this topic.

1) The blockchain part or "mining" in case of BTC is a special kind of scam. For getting a coin You must invest into electricity and computing power. In return You get VERY little chance to be awarded with a coin. This chance is so small, it is mathematically ridiculous, but in practise. ZERO! Nada, ничтo, nichts... What kind of decent money is that, that everyone can apply by spending real money but only few of many millions are actually given by basis of pure luck?

2) The coin part of BTC is a monetary fraud. Although people make transactions voluntarely, they are cheated with the very core concept of BTC. While blockchaining may have some usage as a concept as well as cryptocurrency, it does still not mean that BTC is legit.

a) why is BTC quantity limited with 21 millions? What limits it?
b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.
c) why is blockchain technology better in 99,99% of transactions, than regular private/public key technology?
d) do You really understand, what is private/public key crypto and blockchain in its core, or they just sound cool?
e) if BTC had at more or less decent chance to boom again, why dont all the richest investors in world buy it?

I think "HYIP cartel" are using Bitcoin for their 200% to 400% profit per month HYIP programs/ponzis since Bitcoin is anonymous and unregulated.

HYIP programs pay high profits for 2 to 3 years and then they shut down.

As they say, how many people, so many opinions. People have long divided into 2 camps - some believe in bitcoin, others do not believe. Who will win - only time will show. I remain an outside observer ...))

It's not pure luck. It is how the system is designed. Why can't you suggest a better way of handling it? If you think you can solve the problems of bitcoin, you're free to create your own shit? What's stopping you?

No, I cant, because blockchaining is not mathematically viable solution for cryptocurrency transactions.

You seem like some from r/btc now. Those are the typical idiots who think that way without any logical explanations.

My English is poor, logic is very much there. Miners do mining, because they think BTC is has real future and they think it, because they are unable to understand the mathematics behind mining.

a) Call that a lucky number? If it wasn't limited, would it have any value? Do company shares are unlimited in supply ?
You didint get my point, I asked what limits it, because the answer is absurd. Nakamoto told, there is 21 million coins and they are released in exponentially decreasign amounts.
b) Hyperinflation never occur in the stock market?
It does.
c) Irrelevant
Agreed, not relevat in context of mathematics.
d) Most of us do? As long as you know how the system works, you don't have to understand every core file of it.Abstraction!
Most of You fail to understand the VERY core concept of mining. Which is a scheme.
e) They might be? How would you know?
https://www.bloomberg.com/features/bitcoin-bulls-bears/  You are welcome to read average judgement to BTC. Dont be mad at me, Im just a messenger. It will be over soon. I would bet 0n 1 or 2 qt 2019.

Those who want to believe in BTC at all cost, should avoid this topic.
To help some people, who started to think about the core concept of bitcoin, my judgement is:

1) The blockchain part or "mining" in case of BTC is a special kind of scam. For getting a coin You must invest into electricity and computing power. In return You get VERY little chance to be awarded with a coin. This chance is so small, it is mathematically ridiculous, but in practise. ZERO! Nada, ничтo, nichts... What kind of decent money is that, that everyone can apply by spending real money but only few of many millions are actually given by basis of pure luck?

2) The coin part of BTC is a monetary fraud. Although people make transactions voluntarely, they are cheated with the very core concept of BTC. While blockchaining may have some usage as a concept as well as cryptocurrency, it does still not mean that BTC is legit.

Before You attack my opion, try to give logical answer to these questions:

a) why is BTC quantity limited with 21 millions? What limits it? 
b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.
c) why is blockchain technology better in 99,99% of transactions, than regular private/public key technology?
d) do You really understand, what is private/public key crypto and blockchain in its core, or they just sound cool?
e) if BTC had at more or less decent chance to boom again, why dont all the richest investors in world buy it?

Maybe it wasnt planned so, but BTC is the most genious scam in the history.

Previous doesnt mean, You absolutely can not make any money in it. The same goes for ponzis and pyramids. If You go in or out right time, You will earn and at some cases earn well!

Well you sound pretty convinced with all you are saying about BTC, and again anyone willing to take your advice is free to do so, But everyone venturing into cryptocurrency knows the risks and that includes its high volatile nature. nOT sure how you got here but it must have been out of your own will, so did the others,personal decison making is what matter, if you don't believe in the value of BTC the sit back and watch, you might just get disap
pointed, if not i suggest you keep the negativity to yourself.

You clearly missing the point here. I'm not attacking, it's your right and all, but:

Bitcoin wasn't created as investment. It's main plan was to act like currency, but people started investing when some guy posted he lost millions just because he sold and didn't hold. Taken this opportunity, smart people started to invest it, while over started to learn about it and by time they did, there was huge FOMO (fear of missing opportunity) So some idiots started to sell houses and whatnot, and lost it all, possibly, that's their problem. We are, people, designed like that, if we see we can earn money easy way, we do it. So no Bitcoin isn't scam, we created current situation and it will never change. I use Bitcoins when they cost around 200$ and never dreamed it will go to 20,000$.

Is unfortunate you don't understand the principles in which bitcoin operate so you are concluding it to ponzi scheme. Bitcoin uses electricity to generate it as banks need a service to generate transactions.

Is unfortunate you don't understand the principles in which bitcoin operate so you are concluding it to ponzi scheme. Bitcoin uses electricity to generate it as banks need a service to generate transactions.

snip

Most of the people have the same situation, they do not understand bitcoin and even do not want to, but still they are making good money from bitcoin investment, they are only lucky because they have a good amount of money from which they can make good profit, i think that investment can be more fruitful if you know and have good knowledge about bitcoin.

it something difficult to say but i am more than sure in that everyone is here only for one purpose, the money, and you can not deny this

* Please quote the posts correctly.I know dissecting every part of it is a strain but helps keep the conversation going very smoothly.
- You almost agreed with all the points that I had, I don't see why you'd be against the entire system then? It is just really a virtual reflection of the stock market with more fluctuation.

- If you're against mining, say it. I like how the system rewards people for running their machines by keeping the payments decentralised. How else would you incentivize the process?

Is unfortunate you don't understand the principles in which bitcoin operate so you are concluding it to ponzi scheme. Bitcoin uses electricity to generate it as banks need a service to generate transactions.

Those who want to believe in BTC at all cost, should avoid this topic.
To help some people, who started to think about the core concept of bitcoin, my judgement is:

1) The blockchain part or "mining" in case of BTC is a special kind of scam. For getting a coin You must invest into electricity and computing power. In return You get VERY little chance to be awarded with a coin. This chance is so small, it is mathematically ridiculous, but in practise. ZERO! Nada, ничтo, nichts... What kind of decent money is that, that everyone can apply by spending real money but only few of many millions are actually given by basis of pure luck?

2) The coin part of BTC is a monetary fraud. Although people make transactions voluntarely, they are cheated with the very core concept of BTC. While blockchaining may have some usage as a concept as well as cryptocurrency, it does still not mean that BTC is legit.

Before You attack my opion, try to give logical answer to these questions:

a) why is BTC quantity limited with 21 millions? What limits it?
b) what is the point of decentralised money, if its so volatile, that rate would drop 75% in 6 months (or grows by the same)? this is called a hyperinflation.
c) why is blockchain technology better in 99,99% of transactions, than regular private/public key technology?
d) do You really understand, what is private/public key crypto and blockchain in its core, or they just sound cool?
e) if BTC had at more or less decent chance to boom again, why dont all the richest investors in world buy it?

Maybe it wasnt planned so, but BTC is the most genious scam in the history.

Previous doesnt mean, You absolutely can not make any money in it. The same goes for ponzis and pyramids. If You go in or out right time, You will earn and at some cases earn well!

yes you are correct. bitcoin is a scam so please sell the coins that you have so desperately been buying and leave us dumb people be in our scam in peace  :-*

Well yeah if anyone thinks bitcoin is a scam they can eventually sell them and well to be honest i don’t really think bitcoin will have a limit till 21 million, to mine 21 millions of bitcoins it will take years even for multiple huge setups and when they do I guess there will be something to increase the limits, well for me till I see my profit I will keep on investing and getting back my money.

Obviously I dont have any, Im not stupid enough. I just want to help those people, who dont understand, that are scammed. I know few, that have "invested" instead of voluntary retirement plan, i just feel pity about them.

$1 to $10,000 in 9 years has never been heard of.. Mostly likely money getting created from thin air.

It seems like in order to answer on your question I need to write down whole book about Bitcoin in this thread, lol. If you have a lack of education, you would rather go and look for some video films about Bitcoin technical side.