Bitcoin Forum

When things are all rosy and profits are flowing everyone wants govt to go away, but as soon as markets fall, profits turn to losses, business leaders get irresponsible, and customers service is nowhere to be found suddenly govt is speed dial 1.

2014 is the time when the various facets of the cryptocurrency industry must start forming alliances to monitor, certify, verify, or otherwise regulate the industry. sector by sector.  


Yesterday's pump and dump hurt tomorrows promising CC start-ups.  Security must be increased on every level.    The cryptocurrency community must prove to the world that it can be trusted with the world currency even if it has 300 different faces.

It will be self regulated soon enough by one of these people:
Either A. someone wealthy who lost a lot of money due to Mt Scam, hires someone
or      B. someone not so wealthy lost all their money do to Mt Scam, is going to go crazy

The end result will be the same, someone murders the criminals at Mt Scam.
Gov't regulation - guy goes to minimum security prison for a year or gets off on a technicality





 

There should be possibility of more security on the expense of less freedom and self-responsibility.
There should also remain possibility of unregulated trading without regulation or assurances where everyone have to do his own research and act responsibly.

(By "should" I mean "obstacles shall not be put in way", no one should hinder it. I do not mean "It ought to be done and someone should enforce it.")

It doesn't need regulation of any kind.  Regulation will kill the currency.  It needs less reliance on shitty, centralised, third-party exchanges like Gox.

Regulation may come, but it's not needed, the idea of Bitcoin is that it is free of Human intervention and Laws, if ever it 'needs' regulation and laws to keep it running smoothly, then it's no better than the corrupt fiat system we already have.
what happened to Dark Wallet.

Nooo, self-regulation is evil because it needs work... let's just hide our heads in sand and wish we can get rich quick by buying low and selling high.. the free market will sort out everything!


Now, with jokes aside, I have been trying to tell everyone that there needs to be self-regulation in the market system, but I have basically gotten zero interest on that idea.
I think that bitcoin is doomed, because most in the community are lazy, uneducated and have a vision of an mole. They are the same people who listen to motivational speakers and buy self-help books, so they can be millionaires. No real work or development is needed for those people, you only have to believe really hard that you are awesome, and red carpets will roll and champagne will fall from the sky!
When most of the community consists of people like that, then it's foolish to hope that anything gets done. Everyone will just wish really hard that bitcoin will cost quad-zillions in the future and they will be the new wealthy l33t.

which won't happen w/o regulation. stop being a child.

I know it's tempting to dismiss counter arguments by portraying the people making those arguments as stupid or lazy, but I assure you it's not doing your argument any favours.  If you want to change people's minds, you have to come up with something a little more substantial than ridicule.

The argument against you is that Bitcoin's current implementation is a pure transaction between two parties.  Any attempt to regulate or legislate automatically adds more parties to the mix and therefore breaks the "pure" system we currently enjoy.  It's neither lazy nor stupid to argue against the point you're trying to make.  It leads in a direction that the vast majority of us do not want to go.

Ditto for you.  You're not making a case, you're just throwing words around.

Well, I tried as you can see from this thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=452586.msg5001943#msg5001943

But when only "counter-arguments" I got, were "but..but.. government regulations are bad!" or "but.. but... the banks are also bad!"... Then I lost all hope... No one is interesting in creating a self-regulatory system that would build integrity and trust around the bitcoin market system. No one got worried that if MtGox falls, then people will think "how can I trust any of those exchanges?".. All I got were silly excuses on why we should just keep burying our heads in sand and hope that the problems will solve itself.

So, you may see the reason on why I'm not showing much respect towards this community.

No, you got some counter-arguments which explained why they're happy to continue on this path and why they didn't agree with you.  If you don't accept their arguments, by all means lose respect for them, but it doesn't change the fact that they disagree with you.

Also, your suggestion for handing extra powers and controls over to the people who hold the most Bitcoins would be a recipe for disaster.  I'm glad everyone disagrees, because that would be a completely biased and corrupt system.  If Gox have cocked up their system, it's down to them to fix it and hope that people are stupid enough to trust them with any future investments. 

What you're suggesting would basically mirror our fiat "too big to fail" system, where the wealthy collude to maintain the status quo.  Gox doesn't deserve any help to carry on failing.  If it's too weak and broken to carry on, allow it to die.

Yes, I understood it very well that they are happy with burying their heads in sand. But there were no arguments on how this method is the best way in the survival and development of bitcoin.


People have been burying their heads in sand with MtGox for too long, for there to be any other solutions then a bail-out. Global finance used bail-outs in the same manner. If there wouldn't have been bail-outs then the system would have collapsed. They also did a lot of burying their heads in sand in the past to ignore the growing problems.
Now the bitcoin market system is in the same situation, to issue an bail-out and create a more secure system, so fraudulent exchanges like MtGox won't flourish in the future, or accept the total collapse of the bitcoin market system.
With creating a self-regulatory organization, that does auditing on exchanges, you don't need the richest bitcoin holders. This organization should consists of people who have the most trust among others. The size of their wallets don't mean much in that plan.



I'm telling you that the MtGox situation has gone too far. It should have been dealt with a long time ago. Now it's so far, that it will hurt the integrity of the entire bitcoin market. When it goes public that MtGox was a scam, then people can't trust any of the exchanges. There just isn't a reason to trust that the exchange that should hold your money, isn't using your money to gamble on the stock market for instance.


When Gox has been skimming their clients for over a year, then I doubt that they are weak. They only want to be shown weak, so that all the emus will continue to keep their heads under sand. Gox will probably last as long as bitcoin, because soon some BTC withdrawals will return, and newcomers will still continue to use MtGox because well-know sites like bitcoin.org are recommending it.
But I think more and more every day, that bitcoin is too weak and broken to carry on and I should allow it to die, without trying to do anything. I have a some energy still left in me, but I won't last long when I have to read replies like this.

Your solution is terrible.  Wealthy people buying up Gox so that they can continue the fraud for themselves is not a valid solution.  Also, you seem to have missed the fundamental flaw in your plan, which is, you can't force the people who run gox to sell it.  Until you can address those fatal flaws, no one is going to pay any attention to you.  Accept it. 

The best solution is to create a mass campaign telling people not to use gox and to let them die. 

http://www.teamhellspawn.com/boycottgox.png

I agree that they probably won't sell it. If they would be incompetent then they would sell it to throw away their troublems. But they are probably fraudalent, and they will keep their little scam project.
But still it would be worth the try.. just maybe we are lucky and they are just incompetent.
Luckly you are paying some attention to me, but sadly sand feels too good around your face while it's buried. You are a naive person who things that people will stay honest when there are no consequences of dis-honesty. When I was a child and under the loving protection of my mother, then I used to think like that also.

Mass campaigns coming from unknown names mean nothing. People won't be sure if the information is truth or is it just dis-information created by the competitors. Information on this forum about MtGox problems mean absolutely nothing to the wider audience.
What needs to be done is that known names, who have been talking behalf of bitcoin through the media have to do it. And they have to offer an solution that will guarantee that these exchange scams won't happen in the future. That is the only way to gain back the trust of the wider audience. But.. as we see, the "community leaders" are just like the regular folks here in this forum.. Too afraid to touch these subjects, keeping their heads safely under warm sand.

The bitcoin market system will face the same kind of problem as global finance did... Too much of problem ignoring accumulated and there had to be harsh decisions or face the collapse of the entire system. It currently seems that the ones that run global finance have more balls and brains then this community.

While it's true that there are going to be frauds along the way, it's not proven that regulation would prevent such frauds.  The only reason Gox became successful in the first place is because they were one of the earlier exchanges and people didn't have many options.  It's inevitable that some people will be quick to take advantage in a new and un-tested environment, or that people will make mistakes in their implementations and things will go wrong, as they've clearly done here.  I honestly don't believe a centralised group or any regulators could change what has happened here.  Just like regulators can't stop our fiat banks from all their misdeeds and failures.  But I do think any form of centralisation in what is designed to be a decentralised system would be a bad move for all involved.

It will take some trial and error, but the more trustworthy exchanges we get (or better yet, the more people that trade peer to peer, rather than relying on a small number of centralised exchanges), the better off we'll all be.  Any individuals or exchanges found to be untrustworthy or unreliable will fall by the wayside.  As with all services, the better your service is, the more customers you'll get. 

Only thing that has to be done at first is constant check-ups IF the exchange has the $ and BTC that their numbers show. That would be enough to build trust and integrity of the market system.
But, it's impossible.. it can't be done... it won't fix anything!!! Burying our heads in sand is the correct way.. it fixes all..!!!
Without regulations the situation with central banks would be 100 times worse. There are always possibilities for loopholes, but if you don't even have to find loopholes, you can just take other people money without any consequences, then it's a lot worse.
Please don't reply anymore. Reading your replies makes me want to cry...

No thanks, I'll keep replying until your suggestions could actually be implemented in some practical form.  Please tell me how you suggest to get accurate information from exchanges as to what their balance really is in various currencies?  Tell me how you're going to force an exchange to comply with rules set up by a third party "regulator" who by definition would have no real power to do anything.  

Tell you what, if you want regulation, launch your own regulated coin.  You'll then see unequivocal evidence that allowing the market to choose is the best method, because no one is going to choose your coin over Bitcoin.  It's unregulated by design and it's going to stay that way.

as pointed out elsewhere exchanges should be forced to some kind public accounting mechanism. I can imagine contributing my exchange related work to a community owned exchange / "DAC" over the long haul. so we need self-regulation + smart legal tactics + protocol for exchanges. I'm going to start several projects in this area. over time there will be better solutions.

see
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=452586.msg5001943#msg5001943
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=449773.msg4947406

Ok, now we are getting somewhere.
This is the plan:

Create an organization out of trusted members of the cryptocurrency community. These members shouldn't have any financial connection with any of the existing exchanges and they should be known for publicly speaking in behalf of cryptos or they have made technical contribution to cryptos. For instance the creators of different coins, owners of different websites or support services or just any other public figure that likes to talk about bitcoin or cryptos in general.
Now this group starts quarterly audits on different exchanges and will post their findings on how transparent and cooperative were the particular exchange. The exchange has to prove that it is holding the amount of $ in bank accounts and the amount of cryptos in their crypto wallets. Specifics in doing this is a mater of accounting. The exchange has to cooperate voluntarily or the entire correspondence will be made public and they will be flagged as an untrustworthy exchange if they refuse.
Now, these findings have be as public as possible. When people type "bitcoin" into google, then this webpage has to be in top5. This can all be done with proper investments, investments that can be sponsored by everyone who wants for bitcoin to succeed. These contributions have to be anonymous and can be made through BTC.

With this project there can be certainty to newcomers on what exchange is dubious and which is not. The only way to bring some order into the market system without involving the government. And the only way to create regulations that would work on a global scale.
You can't threaten crooks with jail time, but you can hold up a constant threat of being exposed. And that would be enough for now.

you can do all the accounting based on HD wallets and provable addresses. this can be done today automatically. cryptocurrencies changes principles of accounting. you can read my thread to get an idea how this can be done.

Aside from the fact that a wealthy exchange could potentially pay off an inspector or group of inspectors and get them to say whatever the exchange wanted them to say.  What happens when the website gets hacked and modified to say Gox is the best exchange?  If you do manage to convince anyone to go along with that, then fine.  But if you've noticed, we've just exposed Gox without any "trusted body".  Everything we've seen on this forum in the last few hours is enough to show new users that gox isn't to be trusted.  In that sense we're already self-regulating.   Under your proposal, who regulates the regulators?  

Anyone who's been around longer than a week or two here will know that BTC stored in a web wallet could be compromised at any time.  They know the most secure place for large sums of money is a paper wallet stored in a safe or vault.  They know that money stored on Exchanges is no different to a web wallet and again could be compromised at any point.  The most secure way to transfer money is to and from individuals with a trusted reputation.  Each and every person is best placed to be responsible for their own dealings.  Each and every person here is already a regulator, saying who can be trusted and who can't.  Again, having a centralised body to make those decisions for us would only weaken that.  

The purest and safest transaction is that between two individuals.  The problem with exchanges and also web wallets is that they are a third party.  Any attempt to regulate or legislate automatically adds more parties.  People should only be putting as much money into Exchanges as they can afford to lose.  I only use exchanges for day-trading small amounts of PPC, NMC and other alts.  I'm not putting significant sums of money on there because I'm responsible enough to know that it's not safe.  I would rather see a system based on personal responsibility, rather than one relying on others to make the decisions.  Because when those "trusted" other become corrupt, as they have in our current fiat system, it's all going to turn to shit.

Two things:
- There are many "self-regulated" alternatives. Who wants regulated market has plenty of choice. Please leave some Atlantis for the ones who do not.
- Bitcoin IS NOT a way to get rich in fiat. It would help tremendously if people stop recalculating Bitcoin gains and loses to USD, EUR, etc. If you want fiat stay in fiat.

I think that it's an excellent idea! I can't see right now how can it be implemented on fiat accounting, but I like the idea..

Go regulate yourself!, leave me and bitcoin alone!

self regulation is simple.

DON'T sell at a loss!!!

for those that do sell at a loss, there is equally another person that has just bought up on the cheap. and thus the world is at balance.

if you have personally lost out due to a dump, then you have personally dumped out at a loss.

self regulation is not asking another person to regulate their funds. its asking you to regulate your own funds.

if you never sell at a loss, you will never lose.

When someone wants to create a scam exchange, then there is a lot more risks, when you actually have to bribe a group of well-known people. And this is what is needed, to make scamming riskier then before.
When a webpage is hacked and the information changed, then the operators can take down the website right away and report the hack attempt. So, this is not a real threat but another excuse why we should keep hiding our heads in sand.
"We've exposed Gox" ?.. This "we" are a counted number of members of this forum. And let's not forget that this "we" took about a year of getting scammed, before they "exposed it".... So.. another excuse why we should keep our heads buried in sand.

Well, if you want to continue this "every man for himself/law of the jungle", then I promise you that bitcoin will hardly last a year. When it becomes public knowledge that there is no reason to trust the exchanges and they probably will steal your money/use it for personal means, then say good bye to new adopters.
As I said.. if you want to be weak and meaningless, then go ahead.. evolution does it's thing with people who like to sit on their ass and hope for a miracles to solve their problems.


Get this through your thick head: If the media picks up the subject how unsecured the exchanges really are, then bitcoin will be called an overall scam. That means no new investors. That means old investors will be leaving. To you, it means that no getting-rich-quickly without doing any work.

I'm still getting the same vibe here: "Please be quiet.. you are disturbing my peace... let me live in illusion that everything will just somehow be alright". The world is full of people like that, and that's why there are so many things screwed up in society.
The best irony is that the bitcoin community likes to blame global banking a lot, while repeating the same mistakes that come out of greed, stupidity, laziness and self-flattery. Global finance went into crisis the same way.. most saw the flaws but no one wanted to step up with a direct solution in fixing those flaws.. everyone just hoped that someone else will somehow fix it, so they can keeping their choo choo going with the growing economy.


Luckly I got a reply from benjyz, someone who is interested in offering a fix to this problem. Thank you benjyz for giving me faith that not all people are useless pieces of meat.

Massive regulation did not stop MANY banks from failing in 2008+.  And note that the USG seizure of Gox's 5 million+ bank account (because of a mis-filled form) was the start of its problems... what would you think about regulation if that event was what caused Gox to go fractional?

It is impossible and unnatural to prevent failures.  Failures are part of the natural process.  The failure process ends what is going bad and recycles those people and resources into more productive things. 

It is up to the individual to gauge the risk profile when depositing money with any corporation.  Don't put all your eggs in one basket.  Typically, smart bitcoin buyers and sellers have their coins/fiat on exchanges for as short a time as possible.  Bitcoin lets individuals hold funds themselves conveniently.  So those people leaving funds in Gox were chasing the 25% premium through arbitrage, and risking complete loss due to exactly this situation.  Bailing the Gox bag-holders out at this point (which is impossible with BTC, but let's imagine somehow it happens) will simply encourage this behavior in other instances.  This lack-of-risk is one reason why we see banks making bad loans in the fiat world.  Perhaps this event will encourage individuals to insist that exchanges have individual blockchain-verifiable wallets for each depositor.  After all, the advantages of bitcoin are useless if you don't USE them!

But there is a very important role for the government.  It is up to the government to handle chapter 11 fairly and identify whether any criminal misrepresentations, or criminal misuse of funds were made by employees of the company and if so to carry out the will of the people in regards to punishment.

There are better ways: http://bitcoinism.blogspot.com/2013/12/voting-pools-how-to-stop-plague-of.html

What you're proposing is to repeat the mistakes of global finance.  A body of regulators is never truly independent.  Also, are you volunteering to pay these regulators?  Are you going to pay for their flights to travel around the world visiting exchanges to get proof that everything is all in order?  Are you paying for their accommodation, food and drink?  Are you expecting them to do it for free out of the goodness of their hearts?  Or are you expecting all of us to pay for all that stuff?  Because I can assure you it isn't going to happen.

Look, I'm going to level with you here.  You seem like a decent guy who wants to make things better and I admire your conviction to this issue.  While I don't doubt that you think what you're suggesting is a good idea, I can assure you that adding regulation will only make things worse.  Whether you realise it or not, your present argument is more dangerous to the success of Bitcoin than any shady exchange.

So instead of continuing to tell you why you're wrong, I'll suggest something that we can possibly both agree on.  Move your money (http://moveyourmoney.org.uk/) is a project to give approval ratings to all the major UK banks and building societies.  It's based on feedback from users of those services, rather than appointed individuals like you're suggesting.  If you could set up a site where people can give feedback on their experiences with the various exchanges and highlight which of them are doing well and which are making a complete balls-up like gox, then I'd see no problem with that.  It would provide information to new users and doesn't force unwanted regulation into a system that doesn't need it.

That, or you can keep arguing for regulation, which no one is going to agree to.

You could setup a certification that provides guidelines and specs on how to run an exchange. Think CSA, COR, ISO, ANSI, NACE. These are are guidelines that must be met. If its not met, you can not say your exchange is something like PBEA approved. (peoples bitcoin exchange association) Once up and running it would be in an exchanges best interest to get certified to attract new customers. The PBEA employs a handful of accountants that are paid by I have no idea who. Paid in tips? Someone other than the exchanges as that is just a conflict of interest.

All useless.

Rules enforced by humans aren't worth the electrons they're printed on.

The only regulation that isn't a complete waste of time is cryptographic protocols expressed in and enforced by software.

Global finance didn't go into crisis because there were regulations, but because the regulations and the regulators were too weak and without any real power.
I am volunteering to contribute to these regulators. Sadly I'm not rich enough to do all of this alone. This is why I'm posting these topics in this forum, not flying around the world to meet the right people in person, so that things would get moving already. Posting about the seriousness of this MtGox situation and calling for help was the only way I saw that I could do something. If I'd find enough people here, to show me that bitcoin is worth saving, then I'll also offer my part in funding.

Well, I'll also level with you, that I truly believe that bitcoin will fail without advancements in regulations. It's a matter of creating order if you want to create something for the entire society to use. People like you tend to think that order will just happen out of thin air. That systems will just fix into place by itself.
But things don't just fix into place, people fix things. When someone is not used to fixing something, then that someone likes to think, that everyone else are also like that and things get done by acts of god or whatever.
Now the thing here worries me that no one seems to very few people care that there is a real problem with the integrity of the entire market system. A problem with enough gravity to be fatal to the entire project.
I raised the same subject about 4 months ago, but then I was told that things are already being done to fix this situation. But on viewing the present situation, I can see that nothing has been done and nothing probably won't be getting done.
I was prepared that the majority always votes for nothing to be done. The majority always wants to sit on their ass and wait for miracles (other people) to help them. But what saddens me, is the lack of interest from the minority.. the ones that should have a big stake in bitcoin and that should minimize every risk that threatens it's future.
So, there is nothing being done "behind the curtain" and there is nothing being done in the public forum. It gets more probable every moment, that nothing will get done.

Regulations are not bad per se, but regulations can be bad if they have been created by the wrong people. Bitcoin already has a lot of regulation, with it's entire software being a structure of regulation. Without regulations, people could just write down a number and call it money. Doing this out of their clear conscious and pure honesty on how much have they contributed to others. Sadly you can't write market regulations inside the software. It would be perfect if you could, but daydreaming is for keeping you occupied while hiding your head in sand.
At least for now, these rules have to be written outside the software. Otherwise there are no laws and there are no order. You don't give a flying f**k right now, because bitcoin price is still reletively stable, but you will whine a lot when the price is back to single digits and dropping. Because in the monetary world, trust is everything. And if people won't trust the bitcoin market, then it will fall without an rebound. And then, when everyone will start yelling "hey we need to do something to regain trust", then it's too late, because no one wants to be associated with "bitscam", or at least that's what it will be called. People who have been bitcoin enthusiasts will be publicly ridiculed like members of an pyramid scheme or an cult.

So, I repeat. Most of you that are holding, if you want to fix this problem, then you have to have will to do so, and after that, there comes a solution. If you continue to be these weaklings who hope for miracles, then you will be eaten by the same law of the jungle that your ultra-liberalism tends to promote. If bitcoin wants to expand, then it has to work under a more complex market network then this "We don't need regulations... people are honest in nature.. especially around money".

Now, this dialogue ends on my part. I have been in fiat for the last months and currently I don't see much hope that would make me want to buy back. The market seems without basic ability to distinguish real threats from pseudo threats, so it's not a very attractive investment environment. It's always harder to predict the randomness of stupidity then the structure of common sense.
I'll still keep my eyes open, if there are any people who need help in fixing any problems, but I'm done with trying to get you off your ass. It doesn't feel nice if you bang your head on a stone wall.

So if you don't want to call it "regulation" what do you call it?

How does the cryptocurrency community "control", "monitor", and/or "influence" a company like MG when it "appears" to have gone rogue?

How does the a "responsible" cryptocurrency industry standardize principled behavior in the CC community, particularly from it's major actors (ie MG)?

I call it responsibility.  Keep your money where it's safe.  Bitcoin wasn't designed for third party exchanges, so don't put your money into them if you don't want to lose it.  Bitcoin is peer to peer money.

Bye then.   :)

Just to recap for anyone else that's thinking regulation is needed or wanted, it's not.  Go start your own currencies if you want regulation.  More people will leave bitcoin if it introduces regulation than will leave if an exchange goes under.  Particularly one as crap as gox.  We don't need individual exchanges to succeed.  No one is changing the protocols to grant them a "too big to fail" system.

Why do you keep asking questions that have already been answered?

proof of BTC balances is easy. proof of BTC flows  not so easy, but can be done in the medium term. proof of balance is the lower bound (I own at least x BTC), BTC flow the upper bound (I own exactly x BTC, which requires 1:1 mapping of address to some kind of ID).

proof of fiat balances very hard, but possible in the long term, if you have systems which interact with banking networks directly or even change those networks (perhaps in 10-20 years). problem is that btc-fiat exchanges are the end nodes are attackable. the way to solve this would be a collective enterprise/cooperation/foundation, which uses all kinds of smart tactics to have end nodes to fiat. banks and rich people use these methods all the time.

it is conceivable that one can have a collective exchange, so that flows are totally transparent and fees are close to 0%, similar to bitcoin. but the current p2p exchanges are not the way to do it. its more complicated than that.

I know it's tempting to dismiss counter arguments by portraying the people making those arguments as stupid or lazy, but I assure you it's not doing your argument any favours.  If you want to change people's minds, you have to come up with something a little more substantial than ridicule.

The argument against you is that Bitcoin's current implementation is a pure transaction between two parties.  Any attempt to regulate or legislate automatically adds more parties to the mix and therefore breaks the "pure" system we currently enjoy.  It's neither lazy nor stupid to argue against the point you're trying to make.  It leads in a direction that the vast majority of us do not want to go.
[/quote]

Oh you are right, however you are confusing gov reg with cryptocom self reg,  which does need more parties.  

The "two party" system is fantastically rare, which is why exchanges are so vital, don't forget intrinsic to the system is the necessity for mining which 99.999999999999999% of the time isn't done by either one of the parties in the CC trade transaction.  So again there is a need for more that the core two principals.  

The Heart and the Brain may get the most attention in the human body, but without the vital support organs the system will die, the kidneys can't decide to stop filtering on wednesdays because the blood is too dirty, the lungs can't decide to work on alternate days because capacity is light, and we all know the story about respecting the A-hole  

The point is for proper growth and development the cryptocurrency system it needs SELF regulation -- a way to properly get rid of the waste, before a third party has to remove it for us.

As a noob to all this bitcoin stuff i have made some observations if i am posting in the wrong place or need a phd, hey take it easy.

i dont think bitcoin was invented to be a new world order.
you had to mine coins to get them, then trade them kinda peer to peer.
As popularity rose natural greed took over.
much talk about bitcoin v fiat > to me both are the same.
the only difference is fiat can live without bitcoin.
much talk about the powers that be, hating bitcoin and see it as a mass rival, get real. I would love for something to pop up and give our leaders a kick up the ass but i don’t think it’s  bitcoin.
Much talk about bad things anonymous transactions, silk road, drug barons, corrupt officials, money laundering bah bah bah, peanuts to what govermants do.
Do you really think bitcoin could survive if a wealthy person let alone a government decided not so ?
If bitcoin was worth absolute shit would any of us be reading this post ? to me bitcoin is a great invention that has lived probably beyond the wildest dreams of its creator.
I have invested a small amount for the sole purpose of making some money just like the rest of us.
I hope the price will rocket but hey it might crash phew sounds just like fiat………………………..
As to self regulation its like this > get real

You are a little late on this one.

So may of the halfwits wanted to bring crypto to the people and now they have and will reap what they have sown.

My $.02.

;)

Crypto children (and man-children) are now getting the bitter medicine of reality :)

Funny how you fools run to lawyers (SFBS, WDC) and courts all the while moaning about the 'evils' of 'the man'.

Nation states and regulations of some type are the eventual end results of trying to form a stable, secure environment where decent and steady pursuit of prosperity is a possibilty.

How many times have people seen this crypto jesus wannabes bend over or book it and run at the first sign of real trouble, either to their health or profit?

It's time to stop acting like a bunch of petulant children and know that crypto cannot stand on its own without weathering numerous trials and errors out in the real world.

Or, please do keep deluding yourself thinking technology and your 'legit computer skills' will save you from being ripped off, shut down, stolen from, or otherwise taken advantage of. In the end, a semblance of mutual agreement, minor sacrifices and deviation from strict 'free' society (which isn't really free, just evasion from consequences of your mouth and actions) will  be necessary to ensure the future profits as well as present.


More professionalism, less bull shit.

+1000!

Yippee ki-yay, motherfucker!

You sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo  fuckin' got it!

Thank you for your insightful, honest and 100% correct post!

My $.02.

;)

You know that you do not have to mine and do not have to buy BTC for fiat, do you? (There are other ways to get BTC, such as offering competitive goods and services to the ones already owning BTC.) You can secure CC by BTC payments, you can pay for infrastructure in BTC... Credit card is just another "way how to use fiat" such as bank accounts are representations of fiat.
BTC is not a representation of fiat, although it can be one of its many functions.  Same apply for other CC to some degree.

I think that "self regulation" is up to the individual- We should regulate ourselves- who/what we do business with- I don't want any person or organization/government to regulate what I do with my crypto- I regulate myself- WHY would anyone want regulation?

The current "regulated" master/slave world SUX

History has shown that the human factor brings corruption- I'd rather trust the math- Bitcoin is solid- people... not so much.

Well, "they" wanted to "bring Bitcoin to the world" and now they have.

Thanks a lot, fools!

My $.02.

;)

Until someone can make a lot of money by ignoring ethics, moral and other self regulatory stuff there always will be a bunch of ppl who will prefer the "shady" ways for the quick buck. We have to live with it. Actually we all living with shady guys around everyday. Why do you think the brokers at your bank are any better than let's say Fontas? They've shelled out a large part of our savings just a few years ago on a fully legal way, and they've got a nice bonus for doing so. Regulation will not change the mentality of these people.

But sure, This is possible, it can be done, it would fix something.

But in the process it would screw very much of "other somethings". I would simply just not use such exchange. I would move my BTC trading to the unchecked, unregulated exchange. There are many people like me.

I wonder, Do you also believe that only people opposing constant camera surveillance in the streets are the ones wanting to commit crimes and that "honest law-abiding citizen has nothing to worry about"? Or that all people calling for freedom of speech are extremists who want to promote violence and "bad ideas"?

Again you are speaking in a vacuum, cryptocurrency (CC) must be created before it could be used, the creation of CC beit btc or any other FIRST CC must be done with equipment originally involving fiat.    Even if computers grew on trees the trees would still need to be grown and picked, then the computers would need to be packed and shipped; sold to wholesalers, retailers then to consumer, but that only gets you the computer, now you need a place to put it (like a house or library), electricity, internet service; don't forget you also need people to program the computer, and to create all of the other programs to enable you to do what you want with that computer, are you getting it now?  Ok, now you created your first CC, now you need to create whole CC community, network, industry, then economy then at that point you will be at about where the USA was about 200 years ago when we thought that our brand new USD would enable us to never be involved with another British pound again.

Everyday I work with British pounds, although I never see a single one.   CC is simply another resource.

 

It sounds like you have not yet been the victim of any cryptocurrency wrong doing.  

It won't take long for you to hear of stories of how people got ripped off, from the computer virus that can empty your wallets, hackers that can empty wallets and accounts,  and use your wallet to receive funds stolen from other accounts, account snatching by bad employees of good exchanges, meetup associates, family members, or even law enforcement when your funds are at an exchanges embroiled in a money laundering scheme, not to mention the various pump and dump schemes, or the  exchanges losing money, delaying trades, stopping withdrawals, etc ...  

And just when you think you have it all figured out by eliminating the exchanges, only doing Peer to Peer deals, you plan to store the coins using a paper wallet with keys that were generated by a computer that never saw the internet; and you will only sell your coins after making sure that your money is safe in your bank.
So the scam artist answers your localbitcom ad saying that you are selling 1 btc for cash deposit to your bank account, he passes all of your security checks in terms of name address phone and even ID checks (a bit much just to buy btc, but that's your rule), the deposit of cash is made, you trust that the bank won't accept counterfeit currency, he  faxes you a copy of the receipt you see it in your balance and you verify it with your bank.   So you send the btc code to the customer.   The following day the bank calls you in a conference call with local police, turns out that the person that made the deposit to the account was a victim of a scam (could be one of very many out there) in which the customer is told to make a payment in that way.  After the victim doesn't receive his goods, service, or relief he goes to the bank and police with receipt in hand and demands his money back, the call to you is to determine if you know the guy and if you told him to deposit the funds to the account?  You have his name, address a different phone number, and copy of his id, so you say yes, but when you tell them it was about his btc purchase, they tell you thanks for your assistance hang up.  The next time you look at the account the funds are gone, the man got a refund, and the scam artist get your btc.

If you had a safe, insured, and self-regulated cryptocurrency industry it is highly unlikely that you would go though such elaborate measures to buy sell or secure your CC.

Notwithstanding, just because you are safe doesn't mean the system is safe.

One of the beauties of Bitcoin is that if you think there is a market for some type of more regulated exchange, exchanges with better guarantees, etc., there is nothing stopping you from starting one or a community of like minded individuals who want to follow the rules of the community.

Perhaps make some proposals and try and start something.

that's exactly what this thread represents, the discussion seed that germinates and grows into some large action

I see it like this:
 
1. We will have to have govn't regulated exchanges(coinbase-im in the US) to convert fiat to BTC. This is the onramp and exit for fiat and BTC conversions. No way around this if we are exchanging for fiat.

2. We need exchanges in the Bitcoin network that are not influenced by anything but supply and demand. No founder...No owner...No govnt regulation. We have a group that ensures the integrity of the exchanges.

There should be several of these to make a true index. We trade BTC with other Alt-coins and vice versa, we sell our BTC for currency of choice to trade, but will have to convert to BTC to send to our regulated exchange to cash out in fiat.

just my opinion

You can achieve safety trough regulation.  However it impedes progress and leads to corruption. Eventually you pay for this safety dearly as you are robbed by the system every minute of every day.  If safety is your goal, I suggest studying slave and feudal societies. Most were relatively safe even by today’s standards.

I've heard plenty of stories of people being ripped off- and I've already been ripped off through a Litecoin wallet service that disappeared and took everyones coin BUT that doesn't change my perspective- I still think Bitcoin and what crypto-currency offers is awesome- I just had to adapt and learn and not blame my incompetence or inexperience on the protocols themselves.

I know that the only way to be %100 safe is to die- life is dangerous if you want to be alive-

Having the possibility of change is dangerous but if the status quo Sux ass- the risk is worth it

Anyone or anything that promises total safety is really just offering slavery- enough of that- lets try something new.

Good News/ Bad News: "Benjamin Lawsky, New York's financial services superintendent, said he will issue "BitLicenses" to companies dealing with bitcoins. That would mark the most significant step thus far in the United States to regulate the digital currency"

http://money.cnn.com/2014/02/12/technology/bitcoin-regulation/index.html


on it's face this may look like good news, having the govt formally recognizing cryptocurrency in a significant enough way to codify it, but I see it as simply the first step to massive intervention, manipulation, and taxation (ie: Singapore)

How do you see it?