Bitcoin Forum

Ok, this could be unpopular opinion but i'm speaking my mind here and i'm not out to cause trouble or start mud slinging here...but this NEEDS to be said!

As stated in the title Newbies are NOT the only problem here!

I posted last night here, as i usually do its quite long and detailed as thats how i write- i like to be thorough! Not to everyones taste, though other peoples writing style is not to mine either.

I hadn't been on here for well over a week and i can honestly hold my hand up and say that i had no idea a similar post to mine had been posted a few days before.

The response i got was and i quote: "These have been suggested before, and there was just a thread like two days ago with hilariousandco suggesting that there needs to be a merit requirement for the noob-->Jr. Member transition.  Therefore, this thread is redundant and, in addition, it's way too wordy.  Seems more like a merit-grab attempt than some actual concern from a member with 56 activity."

Now who said this is irrelevant, and i don't have a problem with them either, i'm merely using this as an example.

To me there are 4 totally unnecessary putdowns in this paragraph. Let me address them:

-Firstly it wasnt a "redundant" post, as there was additional info on there that wasn't covered (though i chose to lock the thread shortly after).
-It was classed as too wordy- well as i stated above i write the way i write and i can't please everyone- would you rather 'When Bitcoin moon' posts or someone who actually puts a little EFFORT into their posting behaviour?
- It was no "Merit grab" attempt, for what its worth i don't fish for Merit, if someone chooses to give it to me then thats their call, i'm really not bothered but can you honestly tell me why i would even need it when i don't even use the bounty section? Please don't assume you know me- you don't.
-Lastly the "actual concern from a member with 56 activity" REALLY? You bought Bitcoin before me so my opinion is irrelevant?  :D

The last statement to me implies utter contempt to 'newer' members and that anyone new here is of no importance. I'm sorry but i have as much right as anyone else to be here. Yes there are people who've been here longer than i and built this place to what it is, i just don't think it gives someone the right to be judge, jury and executioner just because you rank higher.

---

I'm only using this as an example of MANY other negative and quite often vindictive behaviour toward other members.

Particularly in the newbie section, i have seen many people shot down when they've posted something quite useful, cited by senior members for having been posted before, its not relevant or its a merit attempt. You have to remember there are hundreds of newbies EVERY DAY on here that probably aren't going to scroll through dozens of pages, so is it relevant- for a newbie yes, yes of course it is!

While i am all for constructive criticism, i don't think this helps in ANY WAY shape or form, it only serves to dissuade members from posting anything else in future in fear of being vilified or singled out.

I'm probably seen in the eyes of some as causing trouble here, but you couldn't be further from the truth. Its an open forum and i think we have every right to speak our minds- good or bad. It needs to be looked at and senior members should be ambassadors for the site...not executioners.

And as you can see....i always make lengthy posts!  ;)

I can see me getting shot down for this post.....C'est la vie.  ::)

Yeah, that was me.  Assuming you're not someone's alt account and haven't been here longer than it appears, you'll realize that noobs ARE the problem. 

Check out the Bitcoin Discussion, Altcoin Discussion, or Economics sections and see how many idiotic nonsense posts are being made, and take note of the rank of the members making them.

Check out how many merit threads are being made in Meta, usually by relatively new members.  These are veiled attempts to earn merit, because they think that if a merit source or an older member with merits to give agrees with them, they'll merit the post.

Sorry you took offense to what I said, but I stand by my "redundant" comment.  The first point in your thread was something hilariousandco had just suggested, which makes me think you either don't read or were basically paraphrasing what he wrote for your own benefit.  Maybe I've gotten too cynical here, but I suspect that if you're a member here long enough you'll get that way too.

They're veterans, not noobs. They've been spamming here for the past few months now to try and get some sort of merit.
I'm going to be honest and say, to me, almost everyone here is the cause of the problem. There are bystanders who do nothing about it, and people who actively spam that fill the boards.
Mostly altcoins are the issue, if we got rid of the altcoin section and moved it to a sister forum (altcointalk.org) we would probably see quite a reduction in spam.

What brought them here though, have we managed to work that out yet?

And we still don't get a separate section for merit so we can just ignore it...

---

Calling out noobs and having an issue with them because they're starting later then the rest of us doesn't really sound like a healthy attitude does it?

Hey i agree with the majority of what you've just posted to be fair

I don't dispute for one minute that newbies are the cause of a lot of the problems- hence my original post and solution that i suggested. I genuinely didnt know about the other guys post- that is a totally honest mistake.

Before May of this year i had never been on here on any account ever. The reason i try and give my point of view on here is so you can see it from a point of view that isn't maybe as 'cynical' as someone who has been here a long time. I try to offer perspective from a newer member as i feel that its vital people to understand general sentiment across the board.

I don't think there was any real malice in what you said and i am certainly not huffed or holding grudges, however, i'm trying to stipulate that by speaking to people in a certain way, could perhaps discourage people to post or participate in the future. That's the point of my post. There are MANY instances of this across the site and indeed i've been previously accused of looking for merit.  :o If people want to confuse my enthusiasm for something else then thats their problem i guess.  ::)

Man, every time one open a thread it is probably to have some bad quotes. This is a forum, so in here there are many minds, and confrontation is kind of normal. As long as you take it personal, you will suffer, and it is pointless, from my perspective.
I don't think you are a merit seeker, on the contrary, your posting behavior seems pretty healthy and honest to me, but this is just my opinion, and every one has the right of having one.
Regarding the answer you received, again, don't take it personal. As you said, you've been out for a while, and these kind of conversations have been the topic from the last couple of weeks, that's why it sounds redoundant.


Probably you've missed some of the pathetic attempts we have had recently of receiving merits by copy/pasting other's work, something really usual both in here and the beginner's board. Anyway, again, don't take it personal, this is just a bunch of opinions, and this is pointless to give too much attention to the negative ones.


No, is not. Sometimes I've done it by myself (not calling someone a noob, but yes, some of them are so desperate to get merits that it makes me feel uncomfortable with them).
I think the forum is now in a bad shape and, also, one can have a bad day. Sometimes I got lost in between so many crappy posts that, by the moment I quote one, I'm not in the best mood. Of course this my fault only, but, well, it is a social place, so this kind of things happens.

But, yes, I do feel that encouraging is far better than insulting, but you know, sometimes it is not possible. ???


Totally.

If you mean the altcoin section of bitcointalk, I would disagree with you.  Those other sections I mentioned are just as bad as Altcoin Discussion.  I don't include the tokens or bounties sections in my assessment, as it's all spam there.

You say everyone is to blame for the shitposting situation, and I would argue that there's mostly a problem at the top.  There's a tolerance of this crap because it brings traffic and some people think that people spamming for signature campaigns is healthy to the crypto economy.  That's why OGNasty excluded me from his trust list--he thought I was somehow bullying noob shitposters.  So that's what you get when someone tries to do something about it.  If you recall in December and January, Meta was filled with people complaining about the tags actmyname and I were leaving for shitposters.  It's not as though we were standing around and accepting the deterioration of the forum.

My overly cynical take on newbies like OP who make suggestions about how the ranking system should be improved is that they're either 1) alt accounts looking for merits, or 2) just looking for merits.  Yes, I could be totally wrong but having seen so much of it since January, I've come to expect this sort of thing.  Before then, there weren't that many low-ranked members posting in Meta, since they were all too busy shitposting for their bounties.  Now that they need merits to rank up and earn more money, they've figured out where the merits are being given out (Meta is a big section if I'm not mistaken) and also which merit-source opinions to agree. 

If I've misjudged you, OP, try to understand where I'm coming from.  We'll see if your take on bitcointalk has changed in a year or so, if you're still around.

I agree a lot with that.
I'm up for giving people a chance, not giving them a free ride here. If they don't learn and keep talking nonsense after a while of being here, they're probably not worth keeping here.

The issue is becoming that people just pick on newbies and they leave (even if they have enthusiasm in Bitcoin), this isn't something we want to promote here.

---

The confrontation thing also, there are a lot of people here from many different backgrounds so there are obviously going to be clashes in how people do stuff. (like the apparent issue with people putting "sir" in their messages)

---

Exactly my point.
Most of the people I see looking for merits, if you look at their post history you'll see the majority of the last 20 posts were in the altcoin boards (I say the last page because I generally fall asleep before going to the next page).

I'm probably of the same opinion. If we keep them quarenteened in the bitcoin discussion section and meanwhile have actual discussions in serious discussion then the forum gets more revenue from its ads as they get more views on the forum.
A lot of spam megathreads gets noticed and closed quite often also on those boards.


I'd say for the low level knowledge meta is the place to be to get merits. If you want merits and you have actual things to discuss with some knowledge behind them, the technical boards are more where there is merit available.
Merit sources are mostly around the meta section also as that's how they apply to be merit sources in the first place, I personally try to make attempts to avoid meta but I like to be on the forum and there doesn't seem to be as many people to help in the technical boards anymore (not sure whether that's good or bad).

I fully understand where you are coming from The Pharmacist- trust me i do.

I'll go a step further and applaud you for taking a hardline stance and having passion about a place you have clearly invested a lot of passion and time into it. I didnt need to be here for a year to see the 'state of decay', 2 months here has shown me all i need to see really.

While i think there is some excellent information on here, and i literally come across or learn something new most times i have a good session on here, i also see the other side of it, which is such a shame really. I have lots going on in my life and i can't be here as often as i'd like, but Merit isn't on my agenda, if someone merits me i'm glad they enjoyed/appreciated my post or input. I don't need it for any other reason.

Also i certainly haven't taken offence to you, it might seem a bit personal because of what i've said in the original post, i just feel that everyone has a right to try and defend themselves that's all. So I also apologise if this caused you offence in particular.

 However there are MANY other instances (from other members) across the forum as i originally stated. Some warranted, some totally unjustified.

Indeed :D

You're wrong here: you need Merit to distinguish yourself from the spammers. I've checked your posts, and you clearly aren't the reason Merit was introduced on the forum. Therefore, I think you shouldn't be restricted from ranking up by a lack of Merit. And for that reason I've merited some of your posts.

I appreciate a Newbie who earned some Merit more than a Legendary who, almost 6 months after Merit was introduced, is still stuck at exactly 1000 Merit. Use this at your advantage.

As for the "lengthy posts" part: if you already know this, you can work on it. Read your posts again before posting, and delete whatever isn't really needed. Condensing information makes it more likely to be read.

Take it easy, OP. Part of being on this forum, or any intertubes chatty-spammy establishment is learning to deal with all sorts of folks, which includes assholes of all ranks. You created a seemingly duplicate thread, you got yelled at... big deal. 99% of newbie abuse is fully deserved (check Patrol) and the remaining 1% will learn and grow.

I'm just kidding, it's probably 0.01%.

Edit: upon re-reading I realized that my post seems to imply that The Pharmacist is an asshole. That is NOT what I meant but whatever, I'm too lazy to fix it now :)

Look Like you got offended by Pharmacist but you need not to be. Answer is already in your post.


Just wondering, How you will take "TMAN" comments. (look like he is not active in Meta.)

Now coming to your post, "Meta" at one time is flooded with so many "Merit" suggestion /improvement threads that people ( Jetcash I guess) suggested for creating a separate "Merit Board".  So much discussed about Merit here that seeing one more thread created on Merit is generally frowned.
 
Now coming to question who proposed first about Merit requirement for becoming Jr. Member , I guess it was nullius in this post. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3114287.msg32178708#msg32178708).

I found this one (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3122415.0)  also as a good suggestion and even I had created a thread. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3193801.msg33102398#msg33102398)

Maybe the legendary member doesn't need a merit as they have hit the final rank already? Reaching the legendary rank on bitcointalk without getting banned or negative tag is a big deal in itself.  :P

Yep, I ignore reading essays without proper formatting.

I'll quote my comment from a similar post here,

Yup (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4675898.msg42254848#msg42254848).


There are many Legendary who are n00bs including yourself. You think so highly of yourself but everything is relative. You lack understanding compared to me (https://steemit.com/freedom/@anonymint/non-decentralized-forums-are-clusterfucks-of-corruption) in this domain. I may lack understanding compared to someone else who is a domain expert in a given field.

I argue that the problem is the lack of decentralized moderation (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4675898.msg42261618#msg42261618).


Only for those who do not want to be successful (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4675898.msg42268900#msg42268900).


Since when did you forget that posting in Meta is allowed for those who are banned?


What rules? (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4675898.msg42258916#msg42258916)

Please learn to read before spouting off (especially ad hominem) nonsense (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1887077.msg42310784#msg42310784).


Blah. Blah. Blah. You will do nothing but fall in the woodchipper (https://steemit.com/psychology/@anonymint/social-courtesies-the-witless-and-pointless-example) with the other condescending bunny rabbits who think they’re superior to the other slobs (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=178336.417220#msg42200354).

Have you been unbanned yet or are you still evading your ban?

In any case you're not in a position to lecture about lack of understanding if you can't grasp simple forum rules. Let me know the URL of your decentralized forum and I'll come over to troll stress test it.

"Age with grace"

Who has heard that saying?
It seems to suggest that wisdom comes with advancing age. This also applies in bitcointalk forum so it is not surprising that most of the issues are linked to newbies. But that does not take away the fact that older members too post shitposts. However, when it comes to merit, I want to ask; is it realistic that every post or reply or comment is worthy of a merit?

I completely agree. If a newbie makes a good post here in meta, the comments are like "Whose alt is this ? " .

Or maybe that Legendary member simply got lucky or the account got sold?
Check the time stamps and the  $&^%#%^* content of these posts...


Back in the days of primedice almost unlimited posting campaign bryant.coleman managed to get 1000 posts a month !!! now he's doing 100 in 2 months  :D
The top poster on this forum has only 1 merit, and he's still active but...

Probably one day Theymos will introduce a new rank above legendary and then that rank would really mean something


Lols, "Whose alt is this ?"  ;D

That saying would apply in real life and not on the internet. Because account here are sold often and thus age is not a determining factor of the account rather it is the person who is using it. It is possible that a mature individual was using an account who knew a lot about this forum and took part but then the new owner was a complete shitposter who came here to spam. You can understand the outcome. ;D

A "good" post is relative. Unless its about merit, threads in "Meta" post-introduction of merit system are all by newbies crying about merit and the usual "account hacked admins help" threads. If you do have something worth appreciating then we have a lot of merit sources here to rain you with merits. But the problem is "content" lacks in newbies unless they gather some experience.  ;)

So will you tell us, whose is it ?

All members in a forum must experience as a newbie first. and when it is necessary to adjust to the new environment. lucky if the presence of newbies can bring a better impact for a forum. but if you can not get the chance to give him a chance to adjust if he wants to learn from his seniors. because when we join the community it means we will interact with many people. and will find some variables like feelings, emotions and ego that must be felt, for that do not be discouraged and continue to learn in order to provide a positive effect for a new environment.to watch out for.

I don't think anyone claimed they were the only problem, but everyone stats off as a Newbie, so that is where the issues start. I don't think people should transcend from Newbie unless they've received at least one merit, otherwise all that rank means is you've been here a month. I think if ranks are based on merit then you've at least earned your rank here. If you're a Newbie with 1000 posts and no merit then I think that says a lot.



I don't think anyone has made such claims that "newer members are of no importance". Everyone starts off as a newbie, but it's not surprising that people are getting annoyed at the sheer volume of clueless people who are signing up here who have absolutely no interest in bitcoin other than their friend/neighbour/bother/sister told them they can earn by posting nonsense here. And post nonsense they do. Do we really need another thread just asking "bounty or airdrop?", or "is bitcoin going to 0/1/10/100/1 million dollars? No.



Lengthy isn't always good. Often it's better to make posts concise to get your message across.



Oh the irony.

If you are new to the forum you would read the rules and stickies and read more than you post. Thats what I suggest every newbie here but who listens to advice? :D

A few remarkable posts are often made by some low ranked member but 99.99% of newbies here are shitposting in bounties.

Problem is they dont want to learn. They are more interested in getting paid from shitbounties.

In the internet there is no place for any "emotion". Accept and move on is what works here.

Sometimes being thorough comes off as being annoying and trying to grab merit, particularly when the comment is unusually detailed, or far beyond what would be expected for a generic question for example. It's good to be thorough, but you should also determine when enough is enough, and try to remain concise.

Did you read them though?
I know I didn't read the rules until about full member (they're quite well hidden for newbies, it's not like it's on the registration page)

But now it's turning to not offering them a chance to learn.


Yeah, sometimes it's just quite a lot to read especially if it is accidentally inflated.

For different sections which I post in, yes I did read the rules, not just once but several times. I still read them to clear any doubt that arises in my mind while answering someone in a thread to make sure I give them as much correct information as I can and not mislead them.

Even if they are not on the registration page, it came to me naturally to read before posting. Dont know about others though. Some people just like to jump the gun. ;D

I highly doubt that. They can learn a lot about the forum and crypto and gather merits while doing so even if they seem to be in a dire situation about merits. While the number of merit sources and their patrolling habits is not enough to cover all parts of the forum I think there is always a chance for improvement.

The problem with new thread starters is that they usually don't check if there is an existing thread talking about the same thing.

Almost everyone will have been guilty of that at some time - including myself.

Some of the most frequent new duplicate thread starters are well established members. But the hordes of newbies often make things hard to find.

I should also add that the "newbies" that cause the most problems are actually established account farmers. So "newbie" is not really the right term.
Most newbie accounts that cause the problems are multi accounts of bounty hunters or account farmers that sell ranked accounts to bounty hunters and signature spammers.

Which is part of a much wider problem - the injustice of poverty. Some of the bounty spammers see it as their only way to earn a living.

In 2016 and  2017 I started no new topics. The conversation I had was in threads started by others. If nobody started new topics it would be a dull place but if people were more careful as to the reasons for starting a new thread it would make it easier to read.

Another thing that would make it easier to read is if people read opinions of others already voiced in the threads. This is why I find some of the bitcoin threads so hard to read - because it is so repetitive.

Meta seems to be the least dull place on the forum with many new interesting things brought up daily. So posters get criticized here for bad posting habits.

The problem seems to be lack of prior research.

The problem can be viewed here  (http://www.letmegooglethat.com/?q=%22bitcointalk.org%22+merit)


EDIT:
Use the search function (especially google for bitcointalk specifically)

https://i.imgur.com/Ex3BNq3.png

For newbies - this is a good place to find nice threads to read if you don't want to search through loads of boring posts:

I tend to follow my favorite posters by checking where they have posted.

At the bottom of their profile:

https://i.imgur.com/OgvwIbB.png

(A bit stalker-ish - I know - but they find good posts for me without even realizing it  ;D )

Another good place to find stuff is:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;stats=recent
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=merit;stats