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Title: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: WiseOldOwl on October 10, 2011, 05:06:50 PM Is silk road the safest commerce site we have??????
If so, maybe they should transition into more mainstream goods, or clone the site with a different purpose. From what I gather, They have -escrow -Reputations -You have to buy a seller title -hedging funds during escrow -If they can sell the most scammer friendly items ever, then they can most likely sell average goods with no problem. Anyways, It dawned on me that despite it being a blemish on the bitcoin surface, it could very well be a strength we haven't been using. What if we flooded it with legitimate stuff, like graphics cards and trillion dollar notes :) Just a thought. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: sukiho on October 10, 2011, 05:24:34 PM I thought the same thing, altho there didnt seem to be much interest in anything but drugs, so I didnt want to spend the $100 to join, but if you have the spare cash why not try?
Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: netrin on October 10, 2011, 05:37:17 PM It's an interesting proposition, but I would be afraid to be associated with it. Silk may be a good service for selling commodities anonymously. It is marketed as such. But no merchant with a real world identity and address would touch it. However, if SR published the source code or created a functionally identical sister site for legal goods, I would certainly consider using it.
Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: MoonShadow on October 10, 2011, 05:38:51 PM Drugs are a high value item, wherein privacy is a requirement. It's Silk Road that needs Bitcoin, not the other way around. The reason it looks like it's the only successful model is because, for the time being, shopping online for legal items that are otherwise high value and easy to ship works just fine with credit cards. The only thing that's going to undermine that is if the currency they use loses their trust or the credit card companies lose their trust. A local model that you might pursue is the 'foodie movement' such as raw milk and local honey. With the FDA coming down on raw milk suppliers and contract arrangements, there is room for a revival of the "milk man" who delivers the milk to the foodies from an undisclosed farm.
Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: WiseOldOwl on October 10, 2011, 05:51:09 PM Drugs are a high value item, wherein privacy is a requirement. It's Silk Road that needs Bitcoin, not the other way around. The reason it looks like it's the only successful model is because, for the time being, shopping online for legal items that are otherwise high value and easy to ship works just fine with credit cards. The only thing that's going to undermine that is if the currency they use loses their trust or the credit card companies lose their trust. A local model that you might pursue is the 'foodie movement' such as raw milk and local honey. With the FDA coming down on raw milk suppliers and contract arrangements, there is room for a revival of the "milk man" who delivers the milk to the foodies from an undisclosed farm. Bottom line is they have the most experience by far in conducting commerce with bitcoin as a medium of exchange.Raw food stuff is not even close to being in a market that is in in the same country of the ballpark I am in lol. I would absolutely never waste my time building a business around that. Not trying to be negative that's just me. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: MoonShadow on October 10, 2011, 06:04:57 PM Drugs are a high value item, wherein privacy is a requirement. It's Silk Road that needs Bitcoin, not the other way around. The reason it looks like it's the only successful model is because, for the time being, shopping online for legal items that are otherwise high value and easy to ship works just fine with credit cards. The only thing that's going to undermine that is if the currency they use loses their trust or the credit card companies lose their trust. A local model that you might pursue is the 'foodie movement' such as raw milk and local honey. With the FDA coming down on raw milk suppliers and contract arrangements, there is room for a revival of the "milk man" who delivers the milk to the foodies from an undisclosed farm. Bottom line is they have the most experience by far in conducting commerce with bitcoin as a medium of exchange.Raw food stuff is not even close to being in a market that is in in the same country of the ballpark I am in lol. I would absolutely never waste my time building a business around that. Not trying to be negative that's just me. That's okay. Someone else will. Anyone without a job, but with a minivan that can hold a couple of large coolers, get going. Make your own job. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: rainingbitcoins on October 10, 2011, 06:17:34 PM Corner the renegade illegal milkman market now before it's too late.
Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: Anonymous on October 10, 2011, 06:25:04 PM Corner the renegade illegal milkman market now before it's too late. They killed the milkman and fresh milk for a reason and it wasn't to help Americans.Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: ParrotyBit on October 10, 2011, 07:09:02 PM They killed the milkman and fresh milk for a reason and it wasn't to help Americans. You left to bring Bitcoin to Alex Jones, but instead you have brought the Alex Jones to Bitcoin! Damn you Costner!!!! Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: MaxSan on October 10, 2011, 07:33:38 PM There are valid points being made here. I think maybe we can build on them.
1. Drugs are in a league of their own and a regular business would not work under this model. 2. There may be a way to use a system like this for legitimate business to "off-load" goods. Maybe under a sort of copyable model and offer products tax free or such? im not sure exactly but it could have advantages in some situations, quesiton is would a business take this sort of risk. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: MoonShadow on October 10, 2011, 07:44:24 PM quesiton is would a business take this sort of risk. Not one that is not currently struggling under the "legitimte" system. After all, grocery stores that have to remove their out of date product can write that off their taxes as a corporate loss but then must throw the stuff out. Giving away to a local soup kitchen for near term use is out of the question. If they should do it before the date expires, it's only a donation deduction and not a full loss write off. The people who dive into the dumpster after audit day, however, are the kind of people willing to take the risks; but I don't think that things are quite so bad in America for that to be widespread. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: defxor on October 10, 2011, 08:29:27 PM The reason it looks like it's the only successful model is because, for the time being, shopping online for legal items that are otherwise high value and easy to ship works just fine with credit cards. Agreed. Bitcoin needs to focus on its strengths, and that isn't in replicating business models that are successful in non-Bitcoin systems. There are a few low hanging fruits that should get more enough attention: 1) Replace Western Union. Seriously. Their fees are enormous, yet it's usually the only option for resellers of grey area items (modchips for games consoles etc). That these companies haven't already switched to Bitcoin surprises me a lot, they transfer quite a lot of money. 2) Meds. While this exists on Silk Road, there are customers who have no problems buying medication that happens to be prescription only in their country but otc in other countries. It seems "more legal", but they wouldn't want to be mixed up with SR. I think I've seen someone on the forum doing this. 3) VPN services. I'm happy to see that some are now accepting Bitcoin payments, but there are many more that could (should). (Not that I'm advocating doing anything of the above, of course, if it's illegal in your chosen country of residence) Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: MaxSan on October 10, 2011, 08:45:42 PM quesiton is would a business take this sort of risk. Not one that is not currently struggling under the "legitimte" system. After all, grocery stores that have to remove their out of date product can write that off their taxes as a corporate loss but then must throw the stuff out. Giving away to a local soup kitchen for near term use is out of the question. If they should do it before the date expires, it's only a donation deduction and not a full loss write off. The people who dive into the dumpster after audit day, however, are the kind of people willing to take the risks; but I don't think that things are quite so bad in America for that to be widespread. I mean a business who puts it down as a loss then "dumps" its by selling it for bitcoins online ;) Maybe not food but im on about some other products that may be viable Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: netrin on October 10, 2011, 08:49:10 PM I believe the exchanges were a necessary early stage in the evolution of the bitcoin ecology, but we need to now focus on transactions that are currency agnostic end-to-end. Bit-pay has the right model and the exchanges are well positioned to accept this role. I would love to use bitcoin as a store of value, but as a merchant, I am more interested in bitcoin as a medium of exchange. I could care less if customers have ever heard of bitcoin. But I value the elimination of counter-party risk.
1) Replace Western Union. Seriously. Their fees are enormous, yet it's usually the only option for resellers of grey area items (modchips for games consoles etc). That these companies haven't already switched to Bitcoin surprises me a lot, they transfer quite a lot of money. We on this forum (perhaps using the OTC web of trust) could implement this guerrilla style. At least major city to major city. A single party could contact various merchants and offer to accept all counter party risk. The merchants would only need to trust one party with whom they have a contract. That party then accepts bitcoin from various senders (customers or other bitcoin savvy middlemen). Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: BkkCoins on October 11, 2011, 12:46:01 AM 1) Replace Western Union. Seriously. Their fees are enormous, yet it's usually the only option for resellers of grey area items (modchips for games consoles etc). That these companies haven't already switched to Bitcoin surprises me a lot, they transfer quite a lot of money. I'd love to see that and it's something that could work very well but it needs some organization to figure out how, spearhead it, package it and make it widespread enough to be useful. The tough part is that no one is going to bother being an agent unless they get something for it. So you need to allow for that in the fees, and to some extent you end up back at WU rates. (I've used Moneygram several times internationally as a lower cost method)Heck, this recent mobile bitcoin POS service that everyone was excited about just ended up charging merchants the same rates as credit cards but for using Bitcoin. So unfortunately the only way to keep fees low for transactions is to have the parties at each end deal directly and gain from the low rates. Any middleman is going to want 2-3% to cover their efforts. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: Andrew Bitcoiner on October 11, 2011, 01:27:58 AM http://bitcashretail.com will soon have a bitcoin marketplace for legal transactions.
Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: FreeTrade on October 11, 2011, 02:30:58 AM Anyways, It dawned on me that despite it being a blemish on the bitcoin surface, it could very well be a strength we haven't been using. What if we flooded it with legitimate stuff, like graphics cards and trillion dollar notes :) I agree with you - Silk Road does most things right. However it is set up so that it needs to be accessed through Tor, so that's a major usability hit. Someone mentioned a 'sister site' - that's exactly where the opportunity is. A site that runs on the regular old WWW with pretty much the same model as 'Silk Road'/'Ebay Stores', dealing only in uncontroversial goods. See the link in my sig for more info. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: BkkCoins on October 11, 2011, 02:40:27 AM They should set SR up so you can access it thru the normal web and see legal products. But if you go thru Tor then additional products show up. That way it could handle all products and expand it's customer base dramatically (not sure of the ability to detect if Tor is used though but presuming it can select content based on origin).
Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: netrin on October 11, 2011, 02:58:35 AM Look guys, it's quite simple. A legal entity does not want to be associated with SR. Generally a legit merchant wants to look legit. He might be selling lines of coke to school children in the back, but his front window is clean as a whistle.
Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: cm68jd on October 11, 2011, 06:25:39 AM 1) Replace Western Union. Seriously. Their fees are enormous, yet it's usually the only option for resellers of grey area items (modchips for games consoles etc). That these companies haven't already switched to Bitcoin surprises me a lot, they transfer quite a lot of money. I'd love to see that and it's something that could work very well but it needs some organization to figure out how, spearhead it, package it and make it widespread enough to be useful. The tough part is that no one is going to bother being an agent unless they get something for it. So you need to allow for that in the fees, and to some extent you end up back at WU rates. (I've used Moneygram several times internationally as a lower cost method)Get bitcoin ATMs that function as normal ATMs and can give fiat currency exchanged from your bitcoin wallet would effectively kill western union. Its user friendly, "intuitive" (because of people's previous experience with ATMs) and does not require a lot of trust (if an ATM was cheating people it would probably be smashed with a bat before it could cheat too many more). Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: repentance on October 11, 2011, 06:41:42 AM Get bitcoin ATMs that function as normal ATMs and can give fiat currency exchanged from your bitcoin wallet would effectively kill western union. Its user friendly, "intuitive" (because of people's previous experience with ATMs) and does not require a lot of trust (if an ATM was cheating people it would probably be smashed with a bat before it could cheat too many more). The thing is that converting BTC to local currency involves somebody buying your Bitcoins. You need to find a counter-party who's willing to do that at the time you want to convert them, and I don't really see anyone being willing to buy unlimited amounts of Bitcoins at the spot rate - which is effectively what an ATM operator would be doing when giving you instant cash in exchange for your Bitcoins. The fees the operators would have to charge in order to make operating such a service viable would almost certainly be too high for anyone who isn't absolutely desperate for cash right this moment to use them. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: netrin on October 11, 2011, 07:22:09 AM (if an ATM was cheating people it would probably be smashed with a bat before it could cheat too many more). A bigger issue is when the ATM cheats the operator. I have vivid memories of an ATM on campus that dolled out $20's rather than $10's, I've never seen a 'secret' spread so quickly. 'Customers' quickly established a protocol, two transaction per customer before returning to the end of the line. By lunch time, the queue went around the block. I was amazed an ATM could hold so many pieces of paper.Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: EhVedadoOAnonimato on October 11, 2011, 07:52:14 AM Silk Road is a retailer. I mean, a market for retailers. Other bitcoin retailers have been working rather successfully too. The main difficulty has been with e-wallets. It's true that Silk Road has an e-wallet, but I don't think people keep much money there, only enough to conduct their transactions, so there's neither much incentive for the site operators to cheat, nor for someone else to try to hack it. And well, I suppose someone willing to pioneer such a risky venture is not a newbie on security/privacy either.
Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: WiseOldOwl on October 11, 2011, 01:41:14 PM They should set SR up so you can access it thru the normal web and see legal products. But if you go thru Tor then additional products show up. That way it could handle all products and expand it's customer base dramatically (not sure of the ability to detect if Tor is used though but presuming it can select content based on origin). Anyways, It dawned on me that despite it being a blemish on the bitcoin surface, it could very well be a strength we haven't been using. What if we flooded it with legitimate stuff, like graphics cards and trillion dollar notes :) I agree with you - Silk Road does most things right. However it is set up so that it needs to be accessed through Tor, so that's a major usability hit. Someone mentioned a 'sister site' - that's exactly where the opportunity is. A site that runs on the regular old WWW with pretty much the same model as 'Silk Road'/'Ebay Stores', dealing only in uncontroversial goods. See the link in my sig for more info. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: Shortline on October 11, 2011, 02:13:49 PM Why would you clone Silk Road for legit stuff? There's already ebay for that, a bigger and better site that supports multiple currencies in multiple countries and has an incredibly large userbase and variety of crap for sale.
I'm not even being facetious here. This is how the majority of the world buys regular crap, from ebay. Bitcoin appears to be absolutely irrelevant to this process. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: error on October 11, 2011, 02:56:33 PM I hate to say it, but Silk Road -- the "black" market -- is the killer app for Bitcoin.
Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: WiseOldOwl on October 11, 2011, 03:02:15 PM Why would you clone Silk Road for legit stuff? There's already ebay for that, a bigger and better site that supports multiple currencies in multiple countries and has an incredibly large userbase and variety of crap for sale. I'm not even being facetious here. This is how the majority of the world buys regular crap, from ebay. Bitcoin appears to be absolutely irrelevant to this process. Just wondering, Why are you here if you love ebay so much? I cant believe this is too complicated. The problem I am solving is a safe BTC commerce site... Why the **** would you suggest ebay if they dont take bitcoins? Also, the last thing i need is a full definition of their workings, I have been using it since they opened. I am just saying that the SR has the most btc commerce experience with the least amount of problems, therefore they have the best model. Its sad when the drug dealers are more legit then a online wallet. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: netrin on October 11, 2011, 04:50:33 PM It would be fine if Silk Road already sold all sorts of things and also happened to have a wide variety of drugs. It would highlight the decentralized unregulated nature of bitcoin. However, given that it is already exclusively in the market for selling illegal goods, any early-adopting legit merchant (with a public identity) would rightly fear that he is committing legal and financial suicide. If it were such a good idea, why aren't merchants cluttering up SR selling graphics cards and socks already?
Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: WiseOldOwl on October 11, 2011, 10:31:06 PM ...I am talking about cloning their business model. It doesnt have to be on Silk Road. I am just talking about the basic features they have???
Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: FreeTrade on October 11, 2011, 11:14:38 PM ...I am talking about cloning their business model. It doesnt have to be on Silk Road. I am just talking about the basic features they have??? The chief problem is not a technical one. The chief problem is adoption - how to get sellers when you have no buyers, and how to get buyers when you have no sellers. Also known as the chicken and egg problem or the network effect. SR solves this by having a very unique selling point - goods that are not available anywhere else on the internet. To replicate with non-controversial goods, you're going up against entrenched competition with a very similar offering. You need very good execution and some good ideas to break into this market. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: FreeTrade on October 11, 2011, 11:17:30 PM This is how the majority of the world buys regular crap, from ebay. Bitcoin appears to be absolutely irrelevant to this process. The eBay/Paypal company will never support Bitcoin. A successful Bitcoin requires a credible eBay competitor that accepts Bitcoin. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: Electrongolf on October 11, 2011, 11:52:40 PM I don't know if Silk Road has the best setup for commerce. If they do, I'm sure there are people here who could easily duplicate the system.
The fact is, Silk Road provides products with value proposition that cash can't match. Silk Road works because it has to work. People have bought into the system. Trust is the only way to keep this exclusive product available. With online wallets like MyBitcoin, there is no incentive to be honest. There is no guarantee that people will continue to use your wallet service, because there is no product/service that guarantees people will continue to use BTC. You can make more money stealing than improving the system. We need to find a 'killer app'. If a product is valuable enough, people will support a system to keep the product easily accessible. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: MoonShadow on October 12, 2011, 12:50:01 AM We need to find a 'killer app'. If a product is valuable enough, people will support a system to keep the product easily accessible. If VALVe would only start accepting bitcoin directly in Steam... Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: WiseOldOwl on October 12, 2011, 01:14:57 AM We need to find a 'killer app'. If a product is valuable enough, people will support a system to keep the product easily accessible. If VALVe would only start accepting bitcoin directly in Steam... - Beavis Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: BitcoinPorn on October 12, 2011, 01:33:17 AM What are the requirements to become a Silk Road seller? How does a person go about that?
I figure a few things you could drop off as requirements if you were not concerned about the legality of your goods. I would love to sell people on the idea of taking their merchandise to the marketplace that supports alternative goods. Title: Re: Is Silk Road the best setup to handle commerce?? Post by: BitcoinSEC on October 12, 2011, 10:44:16 AM They should set SR up so you can access it thru the normal web and see legal products. But if you go thru Tor then additional products show up. That way it could handle all products and expand it's customer base dramatically (not sure of the ability to detect if Tor is used though but presuming it can select content based on origin). First of all, there is nothing illegal about using TOR. TOR is great. My buddy whose stationed in Iraq uses TOR all the time to prevent people attacking his computer. Second, visiting SR is not illegal either. SR does sell drugs and "illegal" items but SR is worldwide. What may be illegal in one county doesn't mean its illegal in another. SR is a marketplace, and any intelligent adult should know the laws of his country and the risks involved when making a purchase from that site. In addition, SR offers many legal products, and when I say legal I'm talking about US laws. It can very from computer programmers to math tutors, SR offers more than drugs. |