Bitcoin Forum

Just a question that i would like to have some people that do this answer. We all know MtGox is trying to crash the bitcoin value trying to save their own asses. At the time of writing the difference between Gox and other exchanges is 440 USD ( 73% under other exchanges ).

My question is, why do you go with that exchange, panic sell your bitcoins for fiat that you will most likely never get back anyway, the chances of getting bitcoins out are a bit higher i think, but still extremely low. The only reason MtGox is manipulating their market is so that a massive amount of people will open up new accounts and dump loads of fiat on their bank account to buy cheap bitcoins, then they will open up the exchange again and the value will bounce back and voila, they just made a lot of money out of a manifactured panic.

Why would you sell your coins at a 73% discount to somebody? Why would you knowingly help them achieve panic?
Maybe it's just that you're trying to make a quick profit yourself somehow?

- It hurts your portfolio.
- It hurts the bitcoin economy/trust in general.

I'd love to have some insight into why people do this.

panic doesn't cause people to make rational decisions

You dont panic sell. Guess we're in the middle of deleveraging from gox instead of following it down.
As a community though i think we should all help out those who lost with gox somehow.
Make a charity coin or something premine it and donate funds to those who lost  ;D

Yes when people go panic, they will think of nothing but sell.

Now MtGox must be sitting there laughing loudly with Frappuccino.

Please explain how this is rational! If Gox goes bust, chances are both MtGoxUSD and MtGoxBTC and whatever is worthless. If Bitcoin withdrawal does resume, you are far better off with Bitcoin.

EDIT: I assume MtGox has other liabilities that are senior to deposits.

The people who are panicking right now are the ones that will be complaining about how such a small amount of people own such a large amount of bitcoins.

I appreciate the cheap coins though.

Gox is selling the cheap bitcoin to other exchanges.
Most traders who are panicking aren't that intelligent.

This is probably in preparation for bankruptcy, Gox will liquidate all holdings in FIAT.

If Gox is bankrupt it won't matter whether you're holding Bitcoins or Fiat.  You'll get neither.

There's completely no rational reason whatsoever to not to do anything but buy as many Bitcoins as you can at these prices on Gox.

But the market aint rational (that's why there's so much money to be made for the contrarians).  If anyone doubts that try to rationalize a $134.10 Gox price.

Google Translation, retouched by me.

It is a drying operation of the BTC in the hands of customers Gox.
It is as if to catch fish rather than cast their nets, dryng the lake, that is: separating Gox from the outside bitcoin world.
The goal is to get as many BTC as possible, fast.
Using it, after, for attacking other exchanges like if it were ammunition. All for keeping low the price of Bitcoin.
Is an operation of big business against the bitcoin world not to allowing their market becomes large. They don't want serious competitors for fiat currencies.
And the worst is that they have succeeded. They have most of the currency mass of bitcoin in your hands, and with that will always control the price.
The reaction should come from developers, changing something in the protocol, so that the suddenly volume surges were not allowed in the normal functioning of a market. It is the mark of the manipulation.
But with Karpeles (probably bribed) inserted in the foundation we have the enemy at home.

That's a problem now, but another background key is also not have understood what is bitcoin conceived. Not to speculate on, but to save it or spend it creating an alternative market.
Now inexperienced traders lose to the Sharks authentic.

How does it hurt your portfolio to trade BTC over there if you can end up with more BTC than you started with?  If they enable withdrawls, then you will end up with more money, which is a better portfolio.

You are the same type of person who was asking why people were "panic selling" on Gox at 450.  If you did that and bought back now, you would end up with 3x as many bitcoins.  

If you want to get out ASAP most people don't care about the circumstances

Prices are that low for a good reason. People evaluate that they have 20% chances to recover anything from MtGox.

Right now the only way out is through Fiat withdrawals.

Options are:
1) You get 30% of your money now (by selling BTC at 30% of its price and withdrawing the FIAT)
2) You keep your BTC and you have 80% chances to never see it again.

As news develop, if MtGox keep providing more evidence that it is going bankrupt (those shady excuses of moving to a different building, etc.), chances of getting anything out of MtGox will get lower, then people will settle for the first option, even if that means to get only 10% of their BTC.

For people trying to speculate buying cheap BTC by sending real FIAT into MtGox account, they need to understand that you are buying into the final stages of a dying company, and that your chances of getting any of the cheap BTC out of Gox are extremely low. It might look nice to have an account with lots of BTC but that is only a fake account. Those BTC are not real, those are just numbers that MtGox is putting there. Nobody knows how many BTC MtGox still has. Very likely they are transferring everything out there right now.

Libitum

Panic sellers are immune to logic. There is no explanation for the behaviour other than they panic a lot  :D.

As I posted before, in Mark's shoes, I would say NOTHING.  "Confidential"  Let everyone speculate and drive the price down to $1.  Spend $40,000 if people were dumb enough to sell me BTC for $1 and pay everyone back the 40,000 BTC that he was robbed.  While everyone piled up Mt GOx USD balances I would begin buying BTC and freeze USD withdrawals, all fiat withdrawals.

Then the only way to get your money out would be to buy BTC with your locked up USD, on a limited basis of course.  The buy pressure would be massive and drive the price back to the +200 rate it was before so whats that about a peak of $800?  At least with the coins I have, I am hoping that's what he does ;)

IF I had coins in Magic The Gathering Online Exchange...

I would have sold them all the day they announced their idiot shot software can't handle malleability and put in buy orders at $1 to $100/coin since they will hit that and hopefully I could get back 1000's of BTC.  Either way, I would have considered any funds in M.T.G.O.X. lost.  

Gox needs to be completely dropped at this point. Problem is, if Gox resumes BTC withdrawals I am afraid the rush of cheap coins will crash other markets.
But at the same time you cant prevent people on Gox from withdrawing their coins, unless, they would allow only fiat withdrawal.
But at this point I think it is safe to assume that Gox is fiat insolvent anyway.
The fact that they moved to a "mailbox/virtual office" tells me they can't afford actual office space and possibly have less employees now.

Dear all

I read quite some speculations here on why the MtGox rate is behaving the way it is. I am still puzzled and would appreciate clarification. Lets assume the following, please correct me where I am wrong:

1) No noticable amounts of fiat are coming out of gox (except for maybe Japanese Yen, which for most of us is meaningless) and even if there would be money coming out, at the current rate it doesnt make sense to sell BTC and cash out.
2) No BTC are coming out but there are promises of this happening very soon. These promises are thought to be far more likely than promises of fiat withdrawals working.

Both 1) and 2) should lead to BTC/USD rates shooting up (not down!). A similar reasoning was making sense in the past ((almost)no fiat getting out of gox) which is why the rate at MtGox was always quite a bit higher than at other exchanges. Now with the recent development this rate should have *increased* and not decreased even modestly. So why is this happening?

Looking for answers I would like to rule out that
a) MtGox is trying to rip everybody off in the most obvious way - there were still reports of Mark going to his office a few days ago, if he just wanted to run away with our money he could have done that long ago and have a happy rest of his life in some Cuban village.
b) People that trade noticeable amounts of BTC (and thus have a noticable influence on the market) are plain stupid and acting in panic without thinking what is happening.

...I just dont see the logic behind this but still I dont believe in conspiracy theories or stupidity alone...

Cheers,
Holle

Gox is destroying Bitcoin, this is f-ing ridiculous and there's nothing I can do about it!  I don't have and never had any btc at Gox.  The price is crashing there and the other exchanges can't help but go down with it (apparently).

"The owner of Mt Gox’s office building is said to be annoyed at the attention the company has been getting lately, especially with protestors near the front door and various images of the building appearing on the web. This is not surprising in real-estate conscious and superstitious Tokyo, where even the most premium office space can attract a bad reputation that sticks for years."
Lol they got kicked from the building, gj protesters!

You lost nothing when you transfer BTC and USD from left pocket to right pocket.  You can adjust the the exchange rate within an enclosed system but the total BTC and USD on the table is the same.  Only the exchange rate moved.  That is how the FOREX mechanism works as well within a rigged market.

The values of BTC changed when it exit from MTGOX at another rate.

Where's that quote from?

Allow me to help:

Hey guys, we've seen this shit from MT Gox for the last 2 years at least pretty much from the start as far as I can tell. They are the origin of the term 'goxxed'. I suggest using a different exchange.

Bit late for that advice haha, but I am continually flummoxed at how they've managed to even stay afloat so long.

If Gox is bankrupt it won't matter whether you're holding Bitcoins or Fiat.  You'll get neither.

There's completely no rational reason whatsoever to not to do anything but buy as many Bitcoins as you can at these prices on Gox.

But the market aint rational (that's why there's so much money to be made for the contrarians).  If anyone doubts that try to rationalize a $134.10 Gox price.


[/quote]

The problem is that the contrarian play is to sell the bitcoin on mtgox bc everyone on this board is saying that you should hold your mtgox bitcoin or buy more.  Has there been even one post recommending or stating that they are selling their bitcoin on mtgox?  Some big whale thinks it is the thing to do and all the minnows say to do the opposite.  I think we know who usually wins that battle.  (but I hope that I am wrong bc I have been hodling)

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-price-hits-135-mt-gox-office-move-verification-demand/ (http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-price-hits-135-mt-gox-office-move-verification-demand/)

I just don't understand why people keep using them  ???

When I first started trading, I came to this forum and read multiple posts advising not to use MT Gox. I have never used their service. I don't know him personally, but I'm told that Karpeles is not a bad guy, and genuinely just wants to see Bitcoin succeed for the benefits it will bring to the world. Unfortunately, however, I don't think MT Gox is really helping with that...

If people were any rational they would not be paying hundreds of dollars for one bitcoin

they don't use it ... they sell !  ;D

http://imagesup.org/images12/1392913780-image3.jpg

I don't think people have a choice if their coins are stuck there, but I agree with everything you said.

How much should they be paying?

Ah. Have people seen this thread (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=477103.msg5261910#msg5261910) about Gox's new office? Apparently it might just be a decoy.

i havent sold any coins. i bought some coins to buy hardware is what i been doing.

Like any currency Bitcoin can only be worth as much as non speculative market is worth. How many dollars(under bitcoins) are being daily spent in non speculative market? How many bitcoins are available? In such case there is not even shortage for offer and demand value increase. So divide the dollar by bitcoins available and you will get a very low value.

Yes, speculation alters the price of any currency, but it is not real value, once speculation is gone, value is gone too.

And even considering speculation, the current price can't be explained by offer and demand either, people are just paying what is asked believing it will go higher and higher forever.

I haven't panicked yet...(probably won't)..., but I have not been able to log into my account for 3 days! (Haven't tried for several months)

Type in the user name and password, hit enter and ....nothing.  ???



I wanted to see if I could convert the remaining $0.13 to btc...

Can everybody else log in or is it just you?

Maybe you'll just have to just let that thirteen cents go  :D.

Not sure.  That is why I posted this.

There is enough trading going on , nor has there been any threads on the subject, so I suspect it might just be me.

Maybe after this storm passes I will contact them about it.  Not really worth anyone's time over $0.13  (it might be less).

Right. I had let it go, and then when the prices dropped, I wondered if it was enough to make a minimum purchase.  When I left it there earlier, it was too little to make a purchase.

I'm not concerned about it at all.  More curious about the log in failure.

How are you buying those cheap coins though?  It doesn't seem like money is flowing in or out of Gox.  Unless you mean the slight decline it has caused on the other exchanges?

If they're considered a Payment Service Agency under Japanese law, no, they don't. Customer funds belong to the customer. Dipping into them is theft.

This is getting very ugly very fast, not long ago everybody was prepared to buy the dip. Now it's dipped and people are looking at the Gox price and thinking "Well what if?... ". Gox is a major blight on Bitcoin. And the press haven't really gotten hold of the story yet, probably as it hasn't reached it's conclusion.

I don't  understand why everyone didn't leave Mt.Gox when they had the chance. Its not like the writing wasn't on the wall. The warning signs were there months before it became a huge issue. Im just glad I bailed when I did. The whole Mt.gox thing has me wondering what the real truth is. Its terribly ovbious that they are in some sort of hot water.

I almost don't have any sympathy for those that are going to (or have) lose their shirts with mt.gox. Most people that are smart would have bailed a long time ago. Does anyone know how many coins they are supposed to have? I agree that once they allow withdrawals, the bear market will just get much worse.

This whole fiasco has hurt bitcoin.

Took my stash out in may, only went back for small transactions. That said, people higher up in the btc community have responded badly to this situation. this problem does not belong exclusively to Gox, it is also a bitcoin foundation crisis.  their silence is hurting the community by the hour.

I don't quite get the gox-is-bad-I-told-ya attitude. The current gox situation is hurting everyone involved in or holding bitcoin, even more so all the fantastic entrepreneurial ideas here. So whatever has been said back then was apparently not loud or clear enough or presented at the wrong channel to prevent the massive damage to the whole system that we're experiencing right now.

You seem to be new here  :D. Gox has been operating a shoddy business for as long as I've known about it.

Given that there's nothing that the foundation can say or do to make MtGox give people their money back, cease operation or resume operation, they are probably feeling that saying something and then having it have no effect is just going to make them look weak.

It's disappointing that things have got this far with Mark Karpeles on the board of the foundation. That does look bad. However, even then, as one of the founders of the organisation they cannot actually dismiss him.

So while the situation sucks all around, the foundation's behaviour is probably the best they can make of it.

someone needs to go to prison over this fiasco! This Karpeles and his friends destoyed capital and ruinined some people i think. He made a damage in the hundrededs of millions with just not halting his tradingengine! He also damaged capital of people who have never been at gox! This guy owes me!

The key word here is PANIC.

Im sure theres plenty of people who bought bitcoins solely on the thought of getting rich quick, nothing else. Possibly quite a few people who invested more money they were willing to lose.  Suddenly the price plunges and people............PANIC

what if I told you mtgox does not have enough BTCs?
 
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=469628.0

Everyone should just stop panicking.

I agree that once you've stopped deposits and withdrawals, you can't leave the trading engine running. If this isn't criminal, it should be.

OMFG.  i can't read this anymore.  a new post, maybe a new topic and pages and pages of repetitive ... .. . 
???
someone mentioned "signal to noise ratio"

Sounds like people are pretending MtGox is going to be around in 1 month.

Pretending is fun.

Its over folks.

I'm a baby in the game and still knew well enough to SELL SELL SELL when Gox stopped not only fiat withdrawals but btc withdrawals. I made a killing and will make another killing when the value bottoms out on exchanges that actually trade and I reinvest. 

Gox isnt killing Bitcoin,but if anyone thought the low Gox sells werent going to affect other exchanges, well I dont know why they thought it wouldnt.

 Keep up with Gox news and you will know exactly when to buy on other exchanges. If you still had BTC in Gox by the time 'transaction malliability' came back up, maybe you should stick to the stock market!

Look at the price now, smart move everyone.

I tends to guess that mark was trying hard to protect the bitcoin exchange rate but this time he failed

Even a central bank will intervene on Forex market if their currency is depreciating quickly. As an exchange owner, Mark surely can affect the exchange rate of bitcoin by using customer funds (Once the exchange rate can stay relatively stable around a certain level, it can hold itself). And this is contributing to bitcoin's success in early days of bitcoin trading: Limiting the fiat withdraw speed ensured price stability of bitcoin

He used be able to support the exchange rate using customer's fiat money, since the only smooth exit was bitcoin he didn't worry about those coins bought when he absorbed selling pressure

But this time he ran out of fiat money and there were just too many coins dumped by speculators due to no exit for bitcoins.

Another guess: There might be some powerful traders from large banks who accumulated huge amount of bitcoins and want to kill the bitcoin's reputation by crashing the bitcoin exchange rate on most well-known exchange, and they indeed succeeded this time. However they have exhausted their ammunition and never expected that other exchanges were almost unaffected by MTGOX