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Title: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: H.Badger on February 21, 2014, 09:38:20 PM In its February 21, 2014 edition, CoinDesk published an observation made by Gavin Andresen regarding the work performed by the Bitcoin core developers. More precisely, he contrasted the effort expended by the core developers with the lack of effort expended by users of the network, particularly by those companies that extract financial gain. He strongly suggested that "... if you are making a profit using the software, you should help develop, debug, test and review it." His comments in this article have brought to light an issue fundamental to the future success of the Bitcoin economy.
However, Mr. Andresen did not go far enough. His admonition and goad to action will most likely fall upon deaf ears. The multitude of benefits of a digital currency is known and has been rightly noted. A cheap method of money transfer portends a new realm of economic activity, i.e. microtransactions. In the poor regions of the world, immigrants will be able to send money to their families in their home country for pennies on the dollar. Family businesses in the backwaters of the world can sell their goods to the world because they trade in a universal currency. Utilization of the Bitcoin economy by these folks will increase as their access to BTC increases. An inexpensive payment system beneficial to the common man is also an efficient means of money transfer for commerce. There are businesses profiting from the expansion of the Bitcoin economy. There will be more in the future. The potential of Bitcoin mentioned above merely reiterates what enthusiasts already know. The point is, as the Bitcoin economy grows, as more people and businesses come to rely upon it, the importance of maintaining the underlying network and protocol grows in the same degree. It is untenable for a system used by millions of people to transfer massive amounts of money all over the world to rely on essentially unpaid volunteers. The psychological and/or emotional rewards afforded to the core developers for creating and maintaining this system will understandably diminish as they see the users of the system profit from the developers' work. The Bitcoin network must be built upon a free market. It is not likely to receive government subsidies or corporate sponsorship. Nor should the largess be accepted if offered. BTC must rely on itself, on the users, the miners and of primary importance, on those who keep the system functional. It must rely on the uncoerced exchange of productive effort applied to the maintenance of the network in exchange for some form of remuneration paid by the network. We must create some type of feedback system that rewards those who maintain and improve the Bitcoin network. In short, Bitcoin core developers should be paid! The not-for-profit purists among us will cringe at this suggestion; but please put yourself in the developer's position. How long would you willing to work as a volunteer while others profited from your work. Miners are paid to mine. Users save money by using the network. Likewise, the system must provide incentives to keep a cadre of core developers interested. This feedback mechanism need not violate the open source, distributed paradigm. Perhaps a coin similar to Devcoin could be merge-mined along with BTC and funded by a percentage of the transaction fees. This coin could in turn fund network maintenance and implementation of new features. The amount awarded for work procured could be voted upon by users/miners. Not offering remuneration to the keepers of the system is a flaw in the system. We need to seriously consider rewarding those who keep the network up and running. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Holliday on February 21, 2014, 09:44:06 PM Remember everyone working on bitcoins holds bitcoins While that may or may not be true, it doesn't need to be true. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: porcupine87 on February 21, 2014, 09:47:28 PM Gavin gets paid, by the foundation, the reward is that they get rich. Remember everyone working on bitcoins holds bitcoins, so why get paid if you are just increasing your own wealth but making a better product? Also bitcoins is a startup currency just like a startup you don't get paid you get stock and your own work can dictate if that is worth $2 Billion or $200. hm but what is with the free rider problem? This devs work hard and make every coin holder richer. Someone might have 100 000 coins and just contribute nothing. But who should pay the devs and what amount? Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Mrrr on February 21, 2014, 09:47:59 PM Remember everyone working on bitcoins holds bitcoins What that may or may not be true, it doesn't need to be true. Same idea still goes. Bitcoin becomes an even bigger success: holders will reap and coinless core devs won't have to worry about their carreer. Don't pay. As long as there are still USD out there ready to enter the crypto economy this whole thing pays for itself. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: DeathAndTaxes on February 21, 2014, 09:57:20 PM As Bitcoin matures this will be a problem that is solved because it IS in the best interest of bitcoin related companies to have open source developers on their payroll. The same concern existing for the Linux project and today the majority of the commits (both kernel and major repos) are from 100% paid full time developers. They are on the payroll of companies which depend on Linux. It is a solid investment. It gives those companies insight into the future development, a subject matter expert, and influence over direction of future development.
Case in point imagine if MtGox had an core protocol developer on the payroll. He would work 90% of the time on the open source project improving the core protocol and reference client, and 10% of the time advising and consulting MtGox internal development team. They probably wouldn't have been "surprised" by the changes in signatures (v0.8), tried to spend immature coins (v0.1), or the countless other things they did wrong. Someone could have explained to their internal development team a year ago they were running the risk of being exploited by relying solely on tx ids. Even if MtGox survives this event, it has already cost them (damaged brand, lost future profits, possible litigation) more than the salary of a dozen protocol developers for the next decade. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: jr3951 on February 21, 2014, 10:04:47 PM I hate to say but I think the spirit of bitcoin is that if the devs all quit, or died in a plane crash, or whatever- it shouldnt matter, someone else will (hopefully) step in and take their place, it is all built on a system that at least maintains the status quo in the meantime.
That said, the devs are a valuable asset to the community, the dirt for our roots, they should have no shame in making the bitcoin foundation for-profit (I'm assuming its not since they are bringing up pay), and collecting a set salary from what they raise. But they SHOULD NOT, implement such a thing in the protocol, how does the protocol decide who is a developer? if the community chooses a different direction how does the protocol recognize this? does a community member get paid if he issues or suggest a vital fix? Is it taken from miners or increase transaction fees to the user? we always need to be as decentralized as possible, its our strength Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Cubic Earth on February 21, 2014, 10:20:46 PM hm but what is with the free rider problem? This devs work hard and make every coin holder richer. Someone might have 100 000 coins and just contribute nothing. Holding 100,000 coins is a massive contribution to the exchange value of bitcoin. At current rates, it would be $60m that the holder is choosing to keep invested in the ecosystem. A high exchange rate allows developers to sell a few of their coins to pay themselves, allows miners to sell coins to keep investing in the security of the network and contributes to exchange rate stability, which many people think is important. Do you still think investor are 'free riders'? Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: browep on February 21, 2014, 10:41:05 PM would need some sort of distributed paying system. Open source dev is already an exercise in herding cats. Adding financial incentives there would not make things any easier to manage. Donating to the Bitcoin Foundation is a good start as that value will probably be returned to you in way of better software which will increase the coins worth.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 21, 2014, 10:50:09 PM In its February 21, 2014 edition, CoinDesk published an observation made by Gavin Andresen regarding the work performed by the Bitcoin core developers. More precisely, he contrasted the effort expended by the core developers with the lack of effort expended by users of the network, particularly by those companies that extract financial gain. He strongly suggested that "... if you are making a profit using the software, you should help develop, debug, test and review it." His comments in this article have brought to light an issue fundamental to the future success of the Bitcoin economy. However, Mr. Andresen did not go far enough. His admonition and goad to action will most likely fall upon deaf ears. The multitude of benefits of a digital currency is known and has been rightly noted. A cheap method of money transfer portends a new realm of economic activity, i.e. microtransactions. In the poor regions of the world, immigrants will be able to send money to their families in their home country for pennies on the dollar. Family businesses in the backwaters of the world can sell their goods to the world because they trade in a universal currency. Utilization of the Bitcoin economy by these folks will increase as their access to BTC increases. An inexpensive payment system beneficial to the common man is also an efficient means of money transfer for commerce. There are businesses profiting from the expansion of the Bitcoin economy. There will be more in the future. The potential of Bitcoin mentioned above merely reiterates what enthusiasts already know. The point is, as the Bitcoin economy grows, as more people and businesses come to rely upon it, the importance of maintaining the underlying network and protocol grows in the same degree. It is untenable for a system used by millions of people to transfer massive amounts of money all over the world to rely on essentially unpaid volunteers. The psychological and/or emotional rewards afforded to the core developers for creating and maintaining this system will understandably diminish as they see the users of the system profit from the developers' work. The Bitcoin network must be built upon a free market. It is not likely to receive government subsidies or corporate sponsorship. Nor should the largess be accepted if offered. BTC must rely on itself, on the users, the miners and of primary importance, on those who keep the system functional. It must rely on the uncoerced exchange of productive effort applied to the maintenance of the network in exchange for some form of remuneration paid by the network. We must create some type of feedback system that rewards those who maintain and improve the Bitcoin network. In short, Bitcoin core developers should be paid! The not-for-profit purists among us will cringe at this suggestion; but please put yourself in the developer's position. How long would you willing to work as a volunteer while others profited from your work. Miners are paid to mine. Users save money by using the network. Likewise, the system must provide incentives to keep a cadre of core developers interested. This feedback mechanism need not violate the open source, distributed paradigm. Perhaps a coin similar to Devcoin could be merge-mined along with BTC and funded by a percentage of the transaction fees. This coin could in turn fund network maintenance and implementation of new features. The amount awarded for work procured could be voted upon by users/miners. Not offering remuneration to the keepers of the system is a flaw in the system. We need to seriously consider rewarding those who keep the network up and running. That's fancy pants speak for TAX, Tax, and more tax. Yep, sooner or later we all come to the realization that free isn't. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: LiteCoinGuy on February 21, 2014, 10:54:14 PM i think most of the core devs hold thousand of btc. they dont need that money anymore.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 21, 2014, 11:12:49 PM i think most of the core devs hold thousand of btc. they dont need that money anymore. hahahahaha ... you tell em, count their money, dismiss their bills, disregard their skills, ignore their contributions, and then demand that they continue working, yep, that's the ticket .... hahahhahahaa Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: MineForeman.com on February 21, 2014, 11:18:57 PM i think most of the core devs hold thousand of btc. they dont need that money anymore. hahahahaha ... you tell em, count their money, dismiss their bills, disregard their skills, ignore their contributions, and then demand that they continue working, yep, that's the ticket .... hahahhahahaa Shhhh you and go make me coffee, WTF don't I pay you for? There are plenty of others out there that will kill to serve me in this fashion, go find one of them. [it's the eternal problem with open source stuff] Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 21, 2014, 11:19:34 PM Case in point imagine if MtGox had an core protocol, developer on the payroll. We would work full time on improving the core protocol and reference client at MtGox's expense. They probably wouldn't have been "surprised" by the changes in allowed signatures in v0.8, they might have gotten a warning that their custom client was horribly broken. Someone could have explained to their internal development team that they were running the risk of being attacked by relying solely on tx ids. Even if MtGox survives this the amount it has cost the company in damaged brand, and lost future profits would have paid for a dozen developers for a decade. great argument right there Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Sheldor333 on February 21, 2014, 11:22:48 PM Best solution I see here is make it all open source, more transparency and no need to pay developers, community will take care of it because it benefits most from it. That is the way I see it at least.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: whtchocla7e on February 21, 2014, 11:27:07 PM Who controls the core developers? Whose wishes are they implementing? How do we know they're not already getting paid by some party that wants to control Bitcoin?
Too much power in the hands of the few... Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 21, 2014, 11:29:51 PM Gavin gets paid, by the foundation, the reward is that they get rich. Remember everyone working on bitcoins holds bitcoins, so why get paid if you are just increasing your own wealth but making a better product? Also bitcoins is a startup currency just like a startup you don't get paid you get stock and your own work can dictate if that is worth $2 Billion or $200. So paying core devs is a worthless thing, and if they all left which must of us hopeful, since they are corrupted by greed, we would get a new team. Not offering remuneration to the keepers of the system is a flaw in the system. Also this is very upsetting we are all keepers of the system not just the core dev team, EVERYONE! so you volunteer to do the job for nothing? you volunteer to use your millions to help "increase your own wealth by making a better BTC product"? you are so kind, so gracious, we appreciate you so much, now go code, code like the wind, you will be known around the world for eternity, go now ... errr ah, what's your name again? hahahahaaaaa Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: bg002h on February 21, 2014, 11:52:28 PM The Bitcoin Foundation was started, in part, to fund the position of chief scientist...to fund a core dev to work on it full time.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: markjamrobin on February 21, 2014, 11:54:00 PM i think most of the core devs hold thousand of btc. they dont need that money anymore. hahahahaha ... you tell em, count their money, dismiss their bills, disregard their skills, ignore their contributions, and then demand that they continue working, yep, that's the ticket .... hahahhahahaa Shhhh you and go make me coffee, WTF don't I pay you for? There are plenty of others out there that will kill to serve me in this fashion, go find one of them. [it's the eternal problem with open source stuff] All BTC devs also act in their personal interests, by propelling Bitcoin forward, and increasing the value of their fortunes. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: WuttWutt on February 21, 2014, 11:59:10 PM Imo they should just be discarded
Bitcoin doesnt need expansion it's perfect already Btw if they start getting paid then bitcoin is doomed because they will do what the highest bidder offers them and ruin the coin (probably in a hard-to-notice way until its too late) Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 21, 2014, 11:59:41 PM Best solution I see here is make it all open source, more transparency and no need to pay developers, community will take care of it because it benefits most from it. That is the way I see it at least. really?, and where exactly do we find 'Mr or Mrs. community, with the skills and experiences to get the job done for no pay? [tapping toe] people want people to do development for free, to do management for free, to do design for free, to do marketing for free, to do outreach for free, to do distribution for free, to do websites for free, to do faucets for free, to do forums for free ... essentially everything but mining for free; then they want the people who did all of the free work to compete on the same level as everyone else for the scarce rewards. Amazing! Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: gweedo on February 22, 2014, 12:03:15 AM The Bitcoin Foundation was started, in part, to fund the position of chief scientist...to fund a core dev to work on it full time. It was started because that company stop funding Gavin, and he whined and whined and whined about it. If I remember correctly ;) Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 22, 2014, 12:08:01 AM Gavin gets paid, by the foundation, the reward is that they get rich. Remember everyone working on bitcoins holds bitcoins, so why get paid if you are just increasing your own wealth but making a better product? Also bitcoins is a startup currency just like a startup you don't get paid you get stock and your own work can dictate if that is worth $2 Billion or $200. So paying core devs is a worthless thing, and if they all left which must of us hopeful, since they are corrupted by greed, we would get a new team. Not offering remuneration to the keepers of the system is a flaw in the system. Also this is very upsetting we are all keepers of the system not just the core dev team, EVERYONE! so you volunteer to do the job for nothing? you volunteer to use your millions to help "increase your own wealth by making a better BTC product"? you are so kind, so gracious, we appreciate you so much, now go code, code like the wind, you will be known around the world for eternity, go now ... errr ah, what's your name again? hahahahaaaaa What do you do to progress the future of bitcoin to make it worth more to yourself and others? I helped build services, I chose a different path. I could be a core dev team member but obviously my views don't line up with theirs. Also I don't use bitcoin-qt at all, I use the version that litecoin team built and I have donated to them if you must know. That's the point, you recognize that a job must be done, you do your responsible part to see to it that it that funding is in place to get's done. Then it's up to management to keep everything running smoothly, or at least on track. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 22, 2014, 12:17:52 AM Btw if they start getting paid then bitcoin is doomed because they will do what the highest bidder offers them and ruin the coin (probably in a hard-to-notice way until its too late) bingo, yessss sir reee bob, that's the solution: "Don't pay 'em so they can continue to do honest work for you, least you defile them with filthy lucre" yeahhhhh, that's the answer right there! hahahahahaaaaa Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 22, 2014, 12:23:41 AM Best solution I see here is make it all open source, more transparency and no need to pay developers, community will take care of it because it benefits most from it. That is the way I see it at least. really?, and where exactly do we find 'Mr or Mrs. community, with the skills and experiences to get the job done for no pay? [tapping toe] people want people to do development for free, to do management for free, to do design for free, to do marketing for free, to do outreach for free, to do distribution for free, to do websites for free, to do faucets for free, to do forums for free ... essentially everything but mining for free; then they want the people who did all of the free work to compete on the same level as everyone else for the scarce rewards. Amazing! You do know at one point bitcoin wasn't worth anything and many people did it cause they want it to succeed. So yes the company would easily able to replace the core dev team, and that is how it should be, cause that is how decentralization works. FOR FREE? and free or not free has nothing to do with decentralization, the two matters are mutually exclusive. Just because you are decentralizing duties doesn't mean any of them will be done free, much less that all of them will be done free. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 22, 2014, 12:39:21 AM Gavin gets paid, by the foundation, the reward is that they get rich. Remember everyone working on bitcoins holds bitcoins, so why get paid if you are just increasing your own wealth but making a better product? Also bitcoins is a startup currency just like a startup you don't get paid you get stock and your own work can dictate if that is worth $2 Billion or $200. So paying core devs is a worthless thing, and if they all left which must of us hopeful, since they are corrupted by greed, we would get a new team. Not offering remuneration to the keepers of the system is a flaw in the system. Also this is very upsetting we are all keepers of the system not just the core dev team, EVERYONE! so you volunteer to do the job for nothing? you volunteer to use your millions to help "increase your own wealth by making a better BTC product"? you are so kind, so gracious, we appreciate you so much, now go code, code like the wind, you will be known around the world for eternity, go now ... errr ah, what's your name again? hahahahaaaaa What do you do to progress the future of bitcoin to make it worth more to yourself and others? I helped build services, I chose a different path. I could be a core dev team member but obviously my views don't line up with theirs. Also I don't use bitcoin-qt at all, I use the version that litecoin team built and I have donated to them if you must know. That's the point, you recognize that a job must be done, you do your responsible part to see to it that it that funding is in place to get's done. Then it's up to management to keep everything running smoothly, or at least on track. Management is not need bitcoin source can live on without management. Satoshi even agreed, he viewed a world of many different ways of bitcoin working yet all using a same protocol cause the community would be able to choose. Remove the brain of anything you end up with disorder -- that simple. If Satoshi had all of the answers, there would be no need for this discussion. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: BittBurger on February 22, 2014, 12:53:33 AM As Bitcoin matures this will be a problem that is solved because it IS in the best interest of bitcoin related companies to have open source developers on their payroll. Love this. There are so many new concepts in businesses coming from this technology, that each one smacks me in the face with interest and brilliance. Future companies wishing to make money off of the Bitcoin protocol by providing products and services pertaining to it may hire Bitcoin developers that can help enhance the (core?) software and make Bitcoin that much more awesome, while benefiting themselves by being able to operate their business more effectively. So cool. What about the issue that the Bitcoin core code seems to be fairly "done" as far as flexibility and change? I keep getting that vibe from what i read / listen to.-B- Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: markjamrobin on February 22, 2014, 12:55:45 AM As Bitcoin matures this will be a problem that is solved because it IS in the best interest of bitcoin related companies to have open source developers on their payroll. Love this. There are so many new concepts in businesses coming from this technology, that each one smacks me in the face with interest and brilliance. Future companies wishing to make money off of the Bitcoin protocol by providing products and services pertaining to it may hire Bitcoin developers that can help enhance the (core?) software and make Bitcoin that much more awesome, while benefiting themselves by being able to operate their business more effectively. So cool. What about the issue that the Bitcoin core code seems to be fairly "done" as far as flexibility and change? I keep getting that vibe from what i read / listen to.-B- There is always more to add to any code. In this case, I'm sure more issues will be resolved, as well as fixes added. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: H.Badger on February 22, 2014, 04:29:33 AM Bitcoin 0.8.6 has just been released.
This version addresses some of the transaction malleability issues that have recently come to light. The following queries are presented for your consideration: Does this new version bring additional value to the protocol? Is the network more robust with this fix? Is the network improved? What is the worth of this improvement? Should the people who made these improvements be rewarded? These are not frivolous questions. The future of the Bitcoin economy may depend on answering these questions correctly. Because there are developers who have contributed their time and labor in the past doesn't mean they will continue to do so in the future. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: grifferz on February 22, 2014, 06:15:39 PM 80% of Linux kernel developers get paid to do that. I don't see why anything special needs to be done to get to that point in the Bitcoin world. Developers will either add value to companies and thus have jobs, or they won't and will have to work on something else.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: MakeBelieve on February 22, 2014, 07:01:58 PM I respect the Bitcoin core devlopers but I'm sure they have got enough money for investing in Bitcoin and their own creation.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 22, 2014, 07:46:28 PM I respect the Bitcoin core devlopers but I'm sure they have got enough money for investing in Bitcoin and their own creation. look at how easy it is for people to count other people's money the work they are doing is volunteer, it doesn't matter how filthy rich they may be, if they want to be paid for what they do how is that different from the same person with no financial means seeking fair compensation for his human resource contribution? To me, fair pay is a portion of the permanent added value, which isn't because the clock ticked; nevertheless, it should not have anything to do with the size of his wallet. Bad enough people pay others based on some "prevailing wage", 'what the market will bear', or some other fancy way of devaluing one's professional worth, to do it based on the fact that 'he's rich already', or 'he doesn't need the money' should be insulting. If they choose to give back the salary, donate the money, or whatever it's their EARNING to do as they please. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: MakeBelieve on February 22, 2014, 09:09:07 PM I respect the Bitcoin core devlopers but I'm sure they have got enough money for investing in Bitcoin and their own creation. look at how easy it is for people to count other people's money the work they are doing is volunteer, it doesn't matter how filthy rich they may be, if they want to be paid for what they do how is that different from the same person with no financial means seeking fair compensation for his human resource contribution? To me, fair pay is a portion of the permanent added value, which isn't because the clock ticked; nevertheless, it should not have anything to do with the size of his wallet. Bad enough people pay others based on some "prevailing wage", 'what the market will bear', or some other fancy way of devaluing one's professional worth, to do it based on the fact that 'he's rich already', or 'he doesn't need the money' should be insulting. If they choose to give back the salary, donate the money, or whatever it's their EARNING to do as they please. They are volunteers yes but I didn't say they got paid did I? I said they invested in Bitcoin which I would see no point in them developing it even though they didn't invest in it. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: smoothie on February 22, 2014, 10:30:28 PM I vote OP should pay developers for their work.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: NewLiberty on February 22, 2014, 10:37:25 PM hm but what is with the free rider problem? This devs work hard and make every coin holder richer. Someone might have 100 000 coins and just contribute nothing. Holding 100,000 coins is a massive contribution to the exchange value of bitcoin. At current rates, it would be $60m that the holder is choosing to keep invested in the ecosystem. A high exchange rate allows developers to sell a few of their coins to pay themselves, allows miners to sell coins to keep investing in the security of the network and contributes to exchange rate stability, which many people think is important. Do you still think investor are 'free riders'? Yes they are free riders. More specifically investors are gambling with their money that someone else will contribute and that they won't have to. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Beliathon on February 22, 2014, 11:37:04 PM i think most of the core devs hold thousand of btc. they dont need that money anymore. This.If you have 1-9 BTC, you are rich. If you have 10-49 BTC, you are very rich. If you have 50-249 BTC, you are super rich. If you have 250+ BTC, you are hyper rich. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Skinnkavaj on February 22, 2014, 11:50:13 PM Some of them are paid.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: UltraPleb on February 22, 2014, 11:57:10 PM The developers do get paid - in Bitcoin. If they were paid in fiat that would be almost hypocritical.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: cr1776 on February 23, 2014, 12:00:54 AM 0.8.6 was released back at the beginning of December 2013:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=364353.0 Bitcoin 0.8.6 has just been released. This version addresses some of the transaction malleability issues that have recently come to light. The following queries are presented for your consideration: Does this new version bring additional value to the protocol? Is the network more robust with this fix? Is the network improved? What is the worth of this improvement? Should the people who made these improvements be rewarded? These are not frivolous questions. The future of the Bitcoin economy may depend on answering these questions correctly. Because there are developers who have contributed their time and labor in the past doesn't mean they will continue to do so in the future. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Meuh6879 on February 23, 2014, 12:02:18 AM the mind of a developper (free) is to use, view and find the better instruction linearity of a process.
reward is not the point. i develop electronical that it cost 10K euros in many factory ... but i don't sell my work, it's for me ... it's for me pleasure. create instruction for my electronical release is priceless. developper of bitcoin are in the same mind ... like the emule developper and the qBitorrent. in internet space, creation don't want money especially if the final goal is a unique and "simple" tool that it can change a real life reflex. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Cubic Earth on February 23, 2014, 03:20:37 AM hm but what is with the free rider problem? This devs work hard and make every coin holder richer. Someone might have 100 000 coins and just contribute nothing. Holding 100,000 coins is a massive contribution to the exchange value of bitcoin. At current rates, it would be $60m that the holder is choosing to keep invested in the ecosystem. A high exchange rate allows developers to sell a few of their coins to pay themselves, allows miners to sell coins to keep investing in the security of the network and contributes to exchange rate stability, which many people think is important. Do you still think investor are 'free riders'? Yes they are free riders. More specifically investors are gambling with their money that someone else will contribute and that they won't have to. So are all investors free riders in your opinion? There are many things you can invest, time is one, money is another. They are both valuable. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: maaku on February 23, 2014, 04:39:03 AM I respect the Bitcoin core devlopers but I'm sure they have got enough money for investing in Bitcoin and their own creation. And where did those initial coins come from? Distribution is to the miners not the developers. If only it were that easy. Believe it or not, some of us are living month to month. Free software isn't a very viable business model. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: FreeTrade on February 23, 2014, 05:54:55 AM This is an issue that is being addressed in MemoryCoin. A percentage of newly mined coins are set aside for salaries and coin owners get to vote on who receives the salaries. Everything is controlled in the blockchain so it's fully decentralised.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: miragecash on February 23, 2014, 06:24:27 AM I think that the OP is correct. Any core developers who hold less than 20 BTC, let us know and we'll all chip in to make sure that you have at least 20 BTC so that when bitcoins replace the USD, you'll have a nice fat $10 million reward.
Being paid a salary may or may not be counter productive. I mean, if they get paid even if things get screwed up and BTC tanks? Or if they get paid only if BTC succeeds? That's why the 20 BTC holdings idea is better. Their success is tied to the success of BTC. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: maaku on February 23, 2014, 06:50:56 AM I think that the OP is correct. Any core developers who hold less than 20 BTC, let us know and we'll all chip in to make sure that you have at least 20 BTC so that when bitcoins replace the USD, you'll have a nice fat $10 million reward. Being paid a salary may or may not be counter productive. I mean, if they get paid even if things get screwed up and BTC tanks? Or if they get paid only if BTC succeeds? That's why the 20 BTC holdings idea is better. Their success is tied to the success of BTC. That's great. Now how do I pay rent and put food on the table for my family in the mean time? Yes, I have a handful of bitcoins tucked away in a never-spend paper wallet just in case. But sometimes I question the sanity of that as its current value is less than my credit card balance. How do you expect core developers to actually work on bitcoin today, without being paid enough to live on? Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: maaku on February 23, 2014, 07:19:45 AM If you can't work on bitcoin because their is no pay then don't work on bitcoin. As you probably know the more the core dev team changes, the better for proof that we are actually decentralized. I'm not sure how that logic can possibly generalize. I'm making enough to live on, barely, and continuing to work because I believe the work I am doing is important. But I get annoyed when I see this persistent, baseless meme that all bitcoin core developers must be posh millionaires just because bitcoin is now seeing some success. Some are well off, but others are not; and not for any reason having to do with being a core developer. We need to find ways for the community and industry to pay these people a living wage so they can devote 100% of their time and energy into improving bitcoin, rather than expecting or demanding that service for free. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: miragecash on February 23, 2014, 07:44:56 AM Maybe it should come out of those miner's fees.
I'm not saying all you get is 20 BTC and nothing more. That's crazy. I'm just offering something WE the members of this forum who happen to be reading this thread could do to help. I'm sure we could collectively cough up 20 btc or so, but I don't think the dozen of us could afford some dude's salary in perpetuity. If I were the CEO of an exchange, I'd pay y'all's salary. However, I doubt Karpeles is gonna turn on the faucets any time soon.... Or put a "donation" button for the developers at the top of the forum's main page, kinda like how wikkipedia does it. Or charge for tech support (use of this forum) kinda like how Ubuntu does it. I think that the OP is correct. Any core developers who hold less than 20 BTC, let us know and we'll all chip in to make sure that you have at least 20 BTC so that when bitcoins replace the USD, you'll have a nice fat $10 million reward. Being paid a salary may or may not be counter productive. I mean, if they get paid even if things get screwed up and BTC tanks? Or if they get paid only if BTC succeeds? That's why the 20 BTC holdings idea is better. Their success is tied to the success of BTC. That's great. Now how do I pay rent and put food on the table for my family in the mean time? Yes, I have a handful of bitcoins tucked away in a never-spend paper wallet just in case. But sometimes I question the sanity of that as its current value is less than my credit card balance. How do you expect core developers to actually work on bitcoin today, without being paid enough to live on? Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: miragecash on February 23, 2014, 08:03:47 AM Dude, you need to chill. Of course I sound stupid. I just found out what bitcoins were a few days ago. And, no I don't have any answers notice how I said, "we could do X or Y or Z." If I knew the answer, the "or" wouldn't be in there, man.
And calling the developer a "greedy crying baby" is not nice. We wouldn't even have bitcoins if it weren't for them. If you work and you get paid for it so you could feed your family. I don't see why the developers should starve. If bitcoins are to spread in adoption, early adopters need to stop acting like peacocks and saying stuff like, "google it," or "you're so stupid." Though I'm a newb, I try very hard to help other newbs who are even less knowledgeable than I. I always try to answer others' questions as best as I can and I always try to help others as best as I can. That's why I am offering to help pool some coin for the developers and just throwing some ideas out there to see what sticks. If we were in a bar, I'd buy you a beer and shake hands... :) I love when newbies come here and they always have all the answers... The more you post the stupider you sound to be honest. Take them out of miner's fees? Then guess what we are not decentralized anymore. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: gmaxwell on February 23, 2014, 08:11:55 AM Directing money to some particular set of pre-ordaned developers (or developer choosing people, or pre-miners) as part of the system is a point of centralization of the sort that Bitcoin seeks to eliminate. People choosing personally, individually, and autonomously to fund work, contributors, or funding schemes they consider valuable is— I believe— the only method which is in accordance with the implicit principles of the system, though it may not work very well. Sure, paying people with everyone elses funds is more attractive, but that isn't what infrastructure like Bitcoin is about.
I don't believe this notion of developers having oodles of coin and being somehow selfishly motivated to contribute to preserve their value makes any sense. For one— it has the freeloading problem, assuming someone has oodles of coin they can just sit back and let someone else do the work, or they can contribute and feel that a lot of other people with a lot more coin are unfairly benefiting from their efforts. For another, I don't believe that many / _any_ of us actually have the aforementioned oodles: Being around "early" by no means guaranteed ever having a large amount, nor did it grant magical foresight to not sell most of it at $7, and it makes it much easier to have given away thousands and thousands of it in bounties (which some of us are known to have done), or to have lost it in scams/heists. Beyond that, I'm not sure that directly profiting by Bitcoin's future value is the best motivational structure in any case: It favors bubble forming activity (why make a profit only on the up when you can take risky actions which create volatility and make money both up and down, over and over again?) My own motivations are essentially political: I favor a world where people have the option to choose to use trustless systems, and geeky: cryptographic protocols and high-risk embedded software development are exceptionally enjoyable mental puzzles. I'm certain I could get paid to work full time on Bitcoin, but such arrangements unavoidably come with strings attached— even if they're silk strings— which may not be very compatible with my motivations. Things like the foundation may help cut through that, but I think that unless we have multiple such organizations we risk creating dangerous points of centralization. Another reason that self-investment doesn't make sense as a development funding argument is that it currently appears to be a losing strategy when compared to some of these high profile altcoin efforts. Right now it appears that you can take a poorly substantiated bill of goods and sell the promise of future development to the market and receive thousands of Bitcoins and perhaps never create anything successful at all. The ideas don't even need to be technically sound, the applications don't need to be well defined, the whole thing can even be more or less completely redundant with Bitcoin... In general I think we should do all the things: We should have developers on company payrolls, community and institution funded developers, freelance agents, academic researchers on grants, bounties for specific functionality, independently wealthy tinkerers, etc. Though I doubt we'll have any self-investors: They'll chase altcoins and business schemes that have more near-term upside. Any one mechanism has its limitations, hopefully we can support many approaches and gain the advantages of all of them. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: gweedo on February 23, 2014, 08:13:34 AM Dude, you need to chill. Of course I sound stupid. I just found out what bitcoins were a few days ago. And, no I don't have any answers notice how I said, "we could do X or Y or Z." If I knew the answer, the "or" wouldn't be in there, man. And calling the developer a "greedy crying baby" is not nice. We wouldn't even have bitcoins if it weren't for them. If you work and you get paid for it so you could feed your family. I don't see why the developers should starve. If bitcoins are to spread in adoption, early adopters need to stop acting like peacocks and saying stuff like, "google it," or "you're so stupid." Though I'm a newb, I try very hard to help other newbs who are even less knowledgeable than I. I always try to answer others' questions as best as I can and I always try to help others as best as I can. That's why I am offering to help pool some coin for the developers and just throwing some ideas out there to see what sticks. If we were in a bar, I'd buy you a beer and shake hands... :) I love when newbies come here and they always have all the answers... The more you post the stupider you sound to be honest. Take them out of miner's fees? Then guess what we are not decentralized anymore. Then if you found out about bitcoins yesterday, then don't put fore a solution if you don't even know how it work. Yes we would have bitcoins if they left, that is exactly what I am talking about. If they left it would actually help bitcoin in the long term, but you can't see that, and they are greedy, hence why most early adopters don't like them. It is kinda like if the first web server was open source (which it was) but required payment before he would keep working on it. Now think about that wouldn't other people pick up the slack. Look at that now, the project is still alive and for the record this is what did happen. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: thms on February 23, 2014, 08:27:24 AM Bitcoin should be a collaborative work with people contributing code, writing documentation, etc.
Who would pay the salaries? Associating private companies with Bitcoin development could be a recipe for disaster. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: gmaxwell on February 23, 2014, 08:35:19 AM Bitcoin should be a collaborative work with people contributing code, writing documentation, etc. Few people are independently wealthy enough that they can contribute large amounts of productive time to efforts which have no prospect of putting food on the table for their families. Effort in complicated systems is not a linear process: One man hour from each of ten-thousand people does not bring the same benefits as as a thousand man hours from each of ten people. One man hour probably doesn't even get a new person through compiling the code, much less understanding it.Who would pay the salaries? Associating private companies with Bitcoin development could be a recipe for disaster. The selection of interested and qualified contributors is already thin enough that further limiting it exclusively to monks and millionaires would probably not be healthy for the system. I too share concerns about distortion from commercial interests (in particular, modern western businesses are often incredibly short sighted and indifferent to non-monetizable rewards like privacy, personal autonomy, or social-cohesion), but when someone profits considerably from a work they have the capability, rational justification, and— arguably— the moral obligation to fund some of it. Commercial interests are an essential and completely legitimate part of the ecosystem and it's good that they be represented too, reservations aside. In any case: I look forward to your patches. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: miragecash on February 23, 2014, 08:41:48 AM Maybe you should email Bitcoin Jesus https://www.facebook.com/rogerkver (https://www.facebook.com/rogerkver) . I'm not being facetious. There really is such a guy and he's reputed to be really helpful to guys like you.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: thms on February 23, 2014, 09:33:16 AM Commercial interests are an essential and completely legitimate part of the ecosystem and it's good that they be represented too, reservations aside. In any case: I look forward to your patches. Why is it essential to have commercial interests represented in Bitcoin ecosystem? If people want to buy things using BTC, it's a public interest and the businesses go find a solution that suits them to be able to process BTC, at their own expense, if and only if they want to accept BTC, that's all. This has nothing to do with Bitcoin core development. Please illustrate your point about commercial interests being essential to Bitcoin core development. As for my patches, I hope I can learn some C++ Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 23, 2014, 09:50:15 AM I respect the Bitcoin core devlopers but I'm sure they have got enough money for investing in Bitcoin and their own creation. look at how easy it is for people to count other people's money the work they are doing is volunteer, it doesn't matter how filthy rich they may be, if they want to be paid for what they do how is that different from the same person with no financial means seeking fair compensation for his human resource contribution? To me, fair pay is a portion of the permanent added value, which isn't because the clock ticked; nevertheless, it should not have anything to do with the size of his wallet. Bad enough people pay others based on some "prevailing wage", 'what the market will bear', or some other fancy way of devaluing one's professional worth, to do it based on the fact that 'he's rich already', or 'he doesn't need the money' should be insulting. If they choose to give back the salary, donate the money, or whatever it's their EARNING to do as they please. They are volunteers yes but I didn't say they got paid did I? I said they invested in Bitcoin which I would see no point in them developing it even though they didn't invest in it. The context of the conversation is "Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid" as such, anything you say should be construed by all readers of your text as for, against, or about that subject unless you say otherwise. You said: "I'm sure they have got enough money" in the context of the conversation any reasonably intelligent individual should logically conclude that you are implying that they don't need to be paid for what they do because they "got enough money". The contrary conclusion is illogical. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 23, 2014, 09:52:55 AM self-funding makes more sense than getting payement "self-funding" makes great sense, now define it. What does or should 'self-funding' mean? Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 23, 2014, 09:56:11 AM The developers do get paid - in Bitcoin. If they were paid in fiat that would be almost hypocritical. who is paying them in bitcoin? wihat is their bitcoin salary Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 23, 2014, 10:01:35 AM This is an issue that is being addressed in MemoryCoin. A percentage of newly mined coins are set aside for salaries and coin owners get to vote on who receives the salaries. Everything is controlled in the blockchain so it's fully decentralised. that sounds like a responsible self-tax system, that allows the system to be be self funded and perpetual Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 23, 2014, 10:16:38 AM If you can't work on bitcoin because their is no pay then don't work on bitcoin. As you probably know the more the core dev team changes, the better for proof that we are actually decentralized. I'm not sure how that logic can possibly generalize. I'm making enough to live on, barely, and continuing to work because I believe the work I am doing is important. But I get annoyed when I see this persistent, baseless meme that all bitcoin core developers must be posh millionaires just because bitcoin is now seeing some success. Some are well off, but others are not; and not for any reason having to do with being a core developer. We need to find ways for the community and industry to pay these people a living wage so they can devote 100% of their time and energy into improving bitcoin, rather than expecting or demanding that service for free. And that is complete non-sense, while I don't believe and I know for a fact not every developer is a millionaire, the goal of the core dev team should NEVER be for profit. This is how bitcoin is going to get ruined. Please don't be like Gavin who demanded he gets paid and is now getting paid. Remember the core of bitcoin is to be decentralized, paying developers to work on it makes it more like a company. To be honest I rather see after 1 year of development that the developer leave the project to show that we are not relying on who is working on the project but the project itself. This is how the government works, everything someone does needs to be paid for, otherwise why do it? This is not how bitcoin should work, bitcoin in the beginning was never about getting rich or getting a paycheck it was about a revolution in currency and more a decentralized currency which no one could tamper with. But now it is all greed from the developers to the forum, it hurts more than anything and I bet satoshi is crying. It is like that pretty girl that everyone wants to date, but she is hurting on the inside. So I suggest if you can't live on the bitcoins you are getting, leave the project, this would be the most helpful instead of being a whiny baby about how you don't get paid for your work on bitcoins cause that is what our lead developer is a whiny baby who wanted to force people to pay for his work, cause he has an ego. So get off your ego and develop for the advance of the currency or don't develop because you are just a greedy pig. Clearly the rant of a slave driver-sweatshop owner mentality. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 23, 2014, 11:05:50 AM Maybe it should come out of those miner's fees. I'm not saying all you get is 20 BTC and nothing more. That's crazy. I'm just offering something WE the members of this forum who happen to be reading this thread could do to help. I'm sure we could collectively cough up 20 btc or so, but I don't think the dozen of us could afford some dude's salary in perpetuity. If I were the CEO of an exchange, I'd pay y'all's salary. However, I doubt Karpeles is gonna turn on the faucets any time soon.... I think that the OP is correct. Any core developers who hold less than 20 BTC, let us know and we'll all chip in to make sure that you have at least 20 BTC so that when bitcoins replace the USD, you'll have a nice fat $10 million reward. Being paid a salary may or may not be counter productive. I mean, if they get paid even if things get screwed up and BTC tanks? Or if they get paid only if BTC succeeds? That's why the 20 BTC holdings idea is better. Their success is tied to the success of BTC. That's great. Now how do I pay rent and put food on the table for my family in the mean time? Yes, I have a handful of bitcoins tucked away in a never-spend paper wallet just in case. But sometimes I question the sanity of that as its current value is less than my credit card balance. How do you expect core developers to actually work on bitcoin today, without being paid enough to live on? I love when newbies come here and they always have all the answers... The more you post the stupider you sound to be honest. Take them out of miner's fees? Then guess what we are not decentralized anymore. Your arbitrarily use of the term 'decentralize' is interesting. You acknowledge the Bitcoin decentralized system, you acknowledge the centralized body (creation team -- CT) that created it, you quote the CT when you feel it should be followed by the decentralized body, you point to one centralized body (core dev team -- CDT) to maintain the decentralized body and another centralized body (CT) for the basis for the illogical non-funding of the CDT although the CT made decentralized provisions for the decentralized maintenance of the system via transaction fees. If the decentralized system cannot, or grows to a point where it does not, operate wholly in a decentralized fashion, provisions must be made to facilitate it's modern growth and development. Beit Newbie or Oldie no one in the Bitcoin biz has more than 5 years exp Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: maaku on February 23, 2014, 11:14:09 AM I wouldn't call the core dev team centralized in any way.
Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 23, 2014, 11:15:42 AM Bitcoin should be a collaborative work with people contributing code, writing documentation, etc. Who would pay the salaries? Associating private companies with Bitcoin development could be a recipe for disaster. and so too may be the current recipe we are stewing in the alt coin are not absolute clones of btc for a reason, most of the alt developers decided to improve on btc in various ways as you see in an earlier post one coin already solved the issue of this thread in their coin Bitcoin it's a religion, it's a money scheme that could be used for many different purposes, and ONLY reason why it took off so fast and so high is because you can make lots of money really fast, without that motivation people leave the endeavor behind in the blink of an eye. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: FelixOliver on February 23, 2014, 11:29:17 AM Why should the Core Dev team be paid for filling what are, essentially, voluntary roles?
How different would this make them from the Global Banksters that reign over our current financial system? The whole point of this decentralized unit of exchange, is to empower the end user... to embrace the world's un-banked... to enable us to un-apologetically dip our hands into the back pockets of the Financial Elites and claim back what has been stolen from us! ..NOT to create a new breed of Financial terrorists. I feel that no one should be paid for fine-tuning, managing etc the Bitcoin protocol... Core Developer or not. That would be the most contradictory and morally redundant thing... anyone who advocates that, should never complain about the financial crisis that we have been oppressed by over the last 7 years. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: thms on February 23, 2014, 11:37:39 AM and so too may be the current recipe we are stewing in the alt coin are not absolute clones of btc for a reason, most of the alt developers decided to improve on btc in various ways as you see in an earlier post one coin already solved the issue of this thread in their coin Bitcoin it's a religion, it's a money scheme that could be used for many different purposes, and ONLY reason why it took off so fast and so high is because you can make lots of money really fast, without that motivation people leave the endeavor behind in the blink of an eye. I don't understand what you mean.. people made money really fast without the devs being paid, so you're saying that if the devs are paid, what will happen? It doesn't make sense. What motivation? The ability to make money with BTC as a user or being paid to develop BTC? Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Mike Hearn on February 23, 2014, 11:39:45 AM I know for a fact that several people who tend to get labelled as core developers are NOT bitcoin millionaires, so let's please throw that assumption in the bin. For example, I am not one.
Why not? Several reasons:
Also, remember that most of the people doing core work could easily get very well paid jobs at major tech companies. The amount of money required to be competitive with those salaries is quite significant. The kidnapping issue worries me. We don't have any solutions for that at the moment, we just coast on herd immunity obtained from the banking system. Secure hardware that enforces withdrawal and transfer rules might be one way to go, but it's complex to set up and requires significant infrastructure. I plan to write more on this topic in future. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 23, 2014, 12:24:20 PM and so too may be the current recipe we are stewing in the alt coin are not absolute clones of btc for a reason, most of the alt developers decided to improve on btc in various ways as you see in an earlier post one coin already solved the issue of this thread in their coin Bitcoin it's a religion, it's a money scheme that could be used for many different purposes, and ONLY reason why it took off so fast and so high is because you can make lots of money really fast, without that motivation people leave the endeavor behind in the blink of an eye. I don't understand what you mean.. people made money really fast without the devs being paid, so you're saying that if the devs are paid, what will happen? It doesn't make sense. What motivation? The ability to make money with BTC as a user or being paid to develop BTC? dude, you took everything out of context, I invite you to go back to the post that I was replying to when I provided my comment to get the proper perspective. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: gmaxwell on February 23, 2014, 12:37:06 PM and coin owners get to vote By this you mean miners, since they can exclude from the consensus votes which they do not like. Bitcoin like systems, at least, are not jamming proof networks.Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Kluge on February 23, 2014, 12:49:19 PM It seems easy enough to solve by devs, but there's really no reason for us non-contributors to even discuss. It's a very intimidating and time-consuming task to donate to "Bitcoin QT contributors" right now. There's more than a small handful of contributers, with individual contributions difficult to determine because most people just don't see them listed (or have the slightest idea of how to fairly contribute). There isn't a simple address you can send to in QT/d.
If I want to support Armory, I click the "donate to Armory development" button right in the client. If I want to donate to CGWatcher, I simply set how many minutes per day I want CGWatcher to send hashpower wherever Justin has it pointed -- it's right in the client and very simple to set up. I want to donate to a pool, I just set my donation % -- it's all very easy. The problem is clearly in the difficulty trying to fairly distribute donations to "QT/d." If devs can't agree on how this should be implemented/distributed, that's not really our problem or fault, and donations aren't going to come in at anywhere near the number they should. It can't be said that it's an issue with users not wanting to contribute when it hasn't been effectively tried, and I think going to corporations and semi-corporations like the Bitcoin Foundation for salary is a dangerous, half-baked plan which threatens the entire protocol (generally -- not in every case, perhaps). If it's an unsolvable problem with QT/d, then I'd suggest developers who want to continue working on QT/d splinter off and either work with another client which allows them to easily be contributed to or start their own client. As far as protocol development goes, I think BIPs are widely-publicized enough where contributors can simply ask for donations on the announcement page. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: Armis on February 23, 2014, 01:03:23 PM and coin owners get to vote By this you mean miners, since they can exclude from the consensus votes which they do not like. Bitcoin like systems, at least, are not jamming proof networks.the more shenanigans that take place the less stable and reliable the cryptocurrency will be, if the system requires perfect security in order to move it won't move. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: ABISprotocol on February 23, 2014, 03:54:44 PM The point is, as the Bitcoin economy grows, as more people and businesses come to rely upon it, the importance of maintaining the underlying network and protocol grows in the same degree. (...) In short, Bitcoin core developers should be paid! This discussion isn't unique to bitcoin, of course. The same questions come up when discussing how to address any free, open source software project. See some recent efforts to address this, at: https://whispersystems.org/blog/bithub/ (https://whispersystems.org/blog/bithub/) and http://tip4commit.com/ (http://tip4commit.com/) (as the name implies...) also, <ahem> http://tip4commit.com/projects/2 (http://tip4commit.com/projects/2) bitcoin/bitcoin is there. older stuff: http://www.donationcoder.com/Articles/One/index.html (http://www.donationcoder.com/Articles/One/index.html) more discussion, related in some ways: https://github.com/ABISprotocol/ABIS/issues/1 (https://github.com/ABISprotocol/ABIS/issues/1) p.s.: if this comment helped you in some way, please donate to our project here: http://abis.io (http://abis.io) Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: bg002h on February 23, 2014, 04:34:01 PM I wouldn't call the core dev team centralized in any way. It is extremely centralized, if Gavin gets hit by a bus what is the plan? Last time I asked this there was no plan. Do you want to send FUD, just capture theymos and Gavin then I can use the alert keys to send FUD. Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: gmaxwell on February 23, 2014, 05:45:49 PM It is extremely centralized, if Gavin gets hit by a bus what is the plan? Last time I asked this there was no plan. We morn and continue on, we've done releases without Gavin. There is no part of the process which is dead in the water without him. Access and records are shared among multiple people.Quote Do you want to send FUD, just capture theymos and Gavin then I can use the alert keys to send FUD. Anyone with the alert key can send a maximum sequence alert which overrides all other alerts and plays a hard-coded message that the alert key has been compromised... though it's not like anyone really notices or pays attention to alerts. :)Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: ABISprotocol on February 24, 2014, 08:26:17 AM Wow. So, whole point of this post was to spread FUD (more or less, and to spawn another Coindesk article)?
Well played, folks, well played. Might I add for those reading through this for the first time and who are actually looking for an answer: Please go here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=480959.msg5318437#msg5318437 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=480959.msg5318437#msg5318437) (Insert shameless statement of self promotion here directing you to my signature below.) Cheers Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: H.Badger on February 27, 2014, 11:33:31 PM This is an issue that is being addressed in MemoryCoin. A percentage of newly mined coins are set aside for salaries and coin owners get to vote on who receives the salaries. Everything is controlled in the blockchain so it's fully decentralised. Ah, a positive step toward a potential solution. Thank you, FreeTrade Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: H.Badger on February 27, 2014, 11:51:47 PM Why should the Core Dev team be paid for filling what are, essentially, voluntary roles? How different would this make them from the Global Banksters that reign over our current financial system? The whole point of this decentralized unit of exchange, is to empower the end user... to embrace the world's un-banked... to enable us to un-apologetically dip our hands into the back pockets of the Financial Elites and claim back what has been stolen from us! ..NOT to create a new breed of Financial terrorists. I feel that no one should be paid for fine-tuning, managing etc the Bitcoin protocol... Core Developer or not. That would be the most contradictory and morally redundant thing... anyone who advocates that, should never complain about the financial crisis that we have been oppressed by over the last 7 years. When can you start work, FelixOliver? How many hours per month are you willing to volunteer? Do you have the necessary skill set? Title: Re: Bitcoin Core Developers Should Be Paid Post by: H.Badger on February 28, 2014, 03:51:31 AM A few posts have expressed the concern that a reward the developers plan may involve a tendency toward centralization. H.Badger concurs that this plan should not require a central authority.
As such the first item in the Requirements Document is entered as follows: Reward the Developers Initiative Requirements Document 1) The distributed, decentralized attribute of the Bitcoin network is sacrosanct and shall not be infringed upon. 2) This system can be funded easily by earmarking a small fraction of the transaction fees toward this end. In just the last 24 hours approximately $800K in transaction fees were collected. The challenge appears to be in storing and distributing the funds. Ideally payment would not require human intervention but since this is a quality and significance of work decision, that may not be possible. One guy created the entire Bitcoin protocol, we should be able to find a way to fund one facet of it. |