Bitcoin Forum

I agree entirely with Elon Musk taking Tesla private for the reason futures trading gets blocked.  I wish there was some way to ban bitcoin futures trading.

According the the wikipedia it seems clear that the tulip bubble was killed by the Dutch start of tulip futures trading.  Heck the tulip bubble might have been created for that purpose, busting it.

The wikipedia says that the Japanese then took the futures idea and used it to provide a guaranteed rice income to the Samurai.  The Samurai had an annual rice payment that sometime suffered from poor harvests and the elite Samurai were then protected. 

Futures trading seem to steadily pump wealth out of whatever it subjects.  If bitcoin futures trading guarantees a btc income then the pumping out of wealth since bitcoin futures start is explained while the rest of us see a guaranteed downward slope.  And the fantastic blurbs about how it can reach astounding heights are bogus to keep us from bailing and keep holdrs put.

What would the stock market be like without futures trading?  No betting against?  They'd have to struggle to find which will be the best above others.  Betting against what they can manipulate would not be an option.  When the whole stock market drops they'd see no profit in it.

I see the downward slope of bitcoin value is again steadily down as it mostly has been since 12/17/2017.  But there are up jumps!  Still, the wealth is getting pumped out or put back in at a lower rate for many more btc.  The transfer of wealth to the futures traders.

Any way to buy Tesla stock with btc?  Before it goes private?

Not an option. However all automobile manufacturers should be bought with crypto except from Fiat.

What the hell does Musk have with futures trading,the tulip bubble and the samurai in Japan.
Futues trading didn't burst the tulip bubble.It bursted because the lack of new demand from greedy newbies.
Making his company private means that the Tesla stocks won't be traded on Wall Street.Futures contracts are traded mostly on CME and CBOE.
Anyway,I agree that bitcoin futures trading is bad for bitcoin.

If I remember correctly, Elon Musk said he was thinking about taking Tesla private. He claimed that he had already found someone who offered funding. Then the media overreacted to things a little, and the SEC launched an investigation. Things might have gotten crazy and blown out of proportion.

Then again, there are investors who are shorting TSLA who literally have bet billions of dollars that the value of TSLA will fall. Elon Musk's announcements of thinking about taking tesla private and claiming to have secured funding would be a nightmare to anyone shorting TSLA.

Elon Musk is like a comic book super hero or super villain with the way he comes out of left field with unpredictable crazy ideas no one else would attempt much less execute successfully, the way he does.

I don't know what Musk's motivation was but TSLA's stock price went up & that may be all that matters within the short term.

I agree that futures is not a good thing for bitcoin. Bitcoin is decentralized and is supposed to show by its own example how true free market operates. Futures is a system allowing not to care about what is happening on the real market and performing transactions under essentially fake prices. It is both price manipulation and an attempt to regulate what should be unregulated. As for tulip mania, due to the tulip life cycle it was indeed an early form of futures market, because people agreed to buy flowers at the time when they couldn't do it without harming the plant. However, the market burst at that time not because the futures existed, but because there appeared people who got involved into these contracts without really having a purpose of paying them off to get tulips, but willing to sell them to someone else. When there's this alienation from the investment, so to speak, the crisis eventually comes. During the world crisis of 2008, there were about 4 different levels of this alienation, which crushed the real estate market hard.

The futures is a terrible idea in itself IMO. Trading imaginary things, it's no different than gambling.

He doesn't care about future trading.

His problem lies with the fact that a company trading on the stock exchange must make things public.
And Musk has a habit of not wanting to provide numbers, inflating them and after that claiming where innocent mistakes and so on.

Remember what happened when people asked him about the model 3?
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/01/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-subdued-on-q2-earnings-call.html

I love how the OP talks about the wonders of a free market and decentralization and his main goal is banning something  :)

Well if it is good for the community then we should try to support it. Although, people tend to have some questions and also to have some answers from all of that.

Yes he is, but we should not forget that there are many guys who are more important in the power of this world than he is so he is basically doing what they allow him to do, I don't think that he would be allowed to do non proper things.

You have a strange view of futures trading OP. How can it pump out value from BTC if buying a contract doesn't mean buying BTC?
The most common thing is to keep buying an asset while it's low, wait for the pump to happen, bet against it on futures and at the same time sell everything hoping that others will follow and induce panic. But you can do it only for so long. At some point the market will find its bottom and reverse and all those who sold to bet on futures will have to buy back to stay in the game.

Most people seem to think that Bitcoin Futures had no direct impact on the price, because no actual bitcoins are being traded

in Futures, but I tend to disagree with them. In my opinion a lot of bitcoins are bought in the background to manipulate the

price for a favourable outcome on the Futures predictions. The pseudo anonymity of Bitcoin allow for Fiat whales to hide their

manipulation of the price, so we will never see the direct impact of these Futures.  ::)

Sorry I can't put my finger on it but an article on Mr. Musk's thoughts of going private was clearly to avoid the detractors driving down the stock value and diverting his attention from getting things done. 

Okay so the stock is traded in NY not in Chicago where futures contracts are made.  Detractors' power is what makes futures contracts so powerful.  In the '70's college economic class, local nights not a top notch tower of higher learning, we were told of crop futures contracts trading on the Chicago Mercantile and that it was about protecting from crop losses due to acts of God. 

JFK was the first television elected president.  That changed politics.  Television in large part then on informed our, the country's, decisions.  Futures contracts were expanded to other matters including currency.  Why?  What the people learned from TV could be controlled.  Those who then controlled TV were now the gods of our time.  And futures contracts profited from and danced to the tune of the gods of our time.

Going private would mean what?  He's offered to buy out those holding stock and I suppose those who wanted could keep what they have.  By avoiding detractors I'd guess that numbers would be out of public view and the stock no longer traded in NY? 

I understand profits aren't great from the manufacture of the car but I look at Mr. Musk's accomplishments and believe he's well worth supporting as well as his workplace philosophy.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

soy39 (soy)

Right, futures are extremely bad for cryptocurrencies, actually, I don't see any side that gains something from futures system, it's a total disaster that is doomed to crash sooner or later. As far as I remember the tulip mania phenomenon ended up leaving everybody with nothing and that's the only possible scenario - people buy futures having no actual money to pay it off - well they never intended to, they bought futures to trade with them and that's what most likely will happen to Bitcoin futures trading. That thing can turn Bitcoin in what we all claim it isn't - a bubble, of course the price will increase, it can go insanely high, but then it will be the end of Bitcoin after it bursts, and all other cryptocurrencies will be taken with caution after that, so the market would probably go red for a long time.

For futures to crash the market, it needs to feed it first.

And the market was feed by hedge funds buying bitcoin in batches between the announcement and implementation of futures markets, that is, between October and December 2017. They crashed the market right at the start of CME.

But the price stagnated and the bottom was discovered at 6k, after a ATH at 20k. They cant dump more. For this, they will need to pump it first, and it will need to go to 50k, so that they can crash to around 1k.

And while they dont do that, volatility will be this small we are seeing today, going from 6 to 8 and then back to 6. Maybe they are buying in a more timid way, but this will not attract newbies to pump the price higher and then crash the market again.

Futures have a effect in the price due to the leverage. They use the fiat money from the leverage to buy more for the next dump that comes after it. They can buy all of a sudden, eating large portions of the book, or buy in small quantities, leading to price stagnation.

In both cases, hodlers are fucked up, because if the price spike and they dont sell, they will see it crashing even more than before, and if the price stagnates, theres no point in holding, when you can sell in these small swings between 6 and 8k, and increase your bitcoin stash.

They are manipulating the market, and the way they do that, forces the average Joe to turn away from crypto, damaging its development as a currency.

A futures contract is just a financial instrument which is mostly used for hedging because a futures contract is a marginal instrument with a build-in leverage. Of course, a futures contract is an instrument mostly for professional traders which hedging their risks by using it. You assert that introducing bitcoin futures caused the market crash. I cannot agree with you completely because it is just your supposition and actually there are no objective proofs.
Let me explain my point of view about this subject. I consider that whales were able to crush market and without bitcoin futures. Whales have many methods of manipulating a particular asset or even entire market and I am sure that they can do it without futures. By the way a  futures contract is a derivative instrument and consequently bitcoin futures must not affect on the bitcoin price directly. So, I do not consider that bitcoin futures were the reason of the crash of bitcoin. By the way there are no futures on ethereum and other major altcoins but all of them are crashed despite of this fact.

In a way, futures trading seem to be like the most legitimate way to get scammed by wealthy investors who wish to be wealthier. Money comes out of nothing in futures trading but apparently the government had seen enough plausible reasons to still allow it, regardless of its substance. The futures and derivatives market seem to just pump up wealth, whereas legitimate markets tend to get left behind and not get enough attention they need. Not really a huge fan of Musk but somehow there are still some substance on what he says sometimes.

So when it came from a rich man it could easily be believed in?

Cmon. He could say anything he wants and none of it will matter to him. Those who will believe or not will be the one suffering until now.

Agree or not. Samurai or Katana. It doesnt matter. Mark zuckerberg could also tell the same thing and we are still the one who will get affected but to them again it doesnt matter. This guys already made their investments and they wont go to our field for they know it is a bad one.

Maybe they said it because they have friends in the industry to make some panic or a pump.

I care about bitcoin.  Bitcoin futures trading, profiting, begs pump and dump.  The concept of cryptocurrency is prone to taking bad hits with the dump.  And the long term constancy of the downward trend since 12/17/2017 says wealth is being pumped out faster than it's being put in.

I treat my animals for parasites prophylactically.  Futures trading is parasitic.

soy39 (soy)

Edit: must be an effect from the noise of a neo-nazi on Vice News.  No extermination implied for those who pumped in July and dumped in August.  Maybe taxing futures contracts harshly would help the economy.

Meeehn… what is even a future trading? Do you mean the regular trading we are doing every day or what? 🤔I don’t know for sure but whatever the so called Musk was doing was for his own gains or a way for him to boost his company’s business and help things move smoothly. I’m okay with what I’m doing I can’t go for it though…

Exactly. He's aware that he needs to make everything public and when the bad news (like not enough money etc.) come in the stock gets hurt decreasing the company's overall worth.

But that's the beauty of the stock market, the best ideas get the more attention and a lot of money.

Same goes with BTC, it's a free market and it's directly influenced by it, good/bad news directly influences the price.

Update: this news story has taken an unexpected turn.


The high number of articles and stories in the news attacking Tesla and Elon Musk of late are strange. Its almost as if there is a FUD agenda against Elon Musk. He's receiving the same treatment bitcoin received when the only thing published in the mainstream media were stories about crypto currencies being a "safe haven" for money launderers, criminals and terrorists. And a unbelievably large amount of content claiming bitcoin was a bubble that was destined to pop.

Tesla's stock is a high stakes FUD game where some investors have literally bet billions of dollars the price of tesla stock would diminish.

In the past it has been revealed some of tesla's biggest haters are people who own large stakes in oil. This trend could carry over to crypto where many of its biggest haters appear to be oil investors who are upset that bitcoin mining gives a lot of business to competing energy sources like hydroelectric energy.

Loving this....
Just a few days ago you opened a topic where you said that the electric consumption of bitcoin mining is minimal and only represents 0.00..% of the whole energy demand now suddenly bitcoin mining is giving a LOT of business to investors that compete with oil.
Which one is it?  ;D

And about TESLA becoming a toy of the Saudi Royal Family, I can say only one thing.
LOL

Bitcoin very different with tulip buble. Bitcoin is store of value and its digital asset. I am agree that bitcoin futures is killing bitcoin because what they buy and sell is just contract paper not real bitcoin, but ETF approved, i am believe bitcoin will recover the price

It is very strange for me why Elon Musk is not paying his attention on cryptocurrency I haven't heard any one at least statement him according to cryptocurrency attitude of his. Interesting to know.