Bitcoin Forum

We are living in the world of technologies which some of them are great some of then are broken and need to be improved .

But long story short this will be a true story why we need to fix this and everyone needs to start using it. So whoever is watching Mining Hardware channel videos knows that we are running and Online shop for mining hardware.

So this started to happened from about start of august 2018 , we had business as usual trough mineshop.eu website. Orders coming in and we shipping out the products, but after few days I noticed something strange most of the orders are under similar names going to one city in Sweden and ordering weird items like Antminer D3 which currently isn’t in big demand. Ok I thought maybe someone has some new x11 coin or has some kind of project , I didn’t pay a lot of attention on this. Until I received an email from PayPal which was used to pay for the goods about unauthorized transaction on product which was not shipped yet.
https://i.imgur.com/ENqQuB1.png

Ok so I called up paypal and asked what its all about , they said don’t worry if you have tracking number that you have shipped item , you are under seller protections. Ok I said that I haven’t shipped the item out yet, what should I do then. He said the easiest would be refund payment to him, which is what we did.

After this I decided to do some more research on these orders and I found similarity on orders , that all of them are ordered by same surname just different names. Ok I though it is very suspicious and went to check DHL Tracking numbers. And what I saw was that these mining rigs was all of them refused delivery and then picked up. So I got in contact with our account manager in DHL and he said that in Sweden they have these parcel motels, when currier can leave parcel and customer can come and pickup his parcel without needing him to show his id or anything.
https://i.imgur.com/3n8t18e.png
As expected unauthorized transactions started to come in one by one. So of course I got on to paypal again , and this time their answer was you are not seller protected on these transactions. I said WTF , sorry for my language. Someone just ordered items worth 25 000 euro with stolen credit cards and you want to tell me its my fault . You are the safe payment gateway as you are advertising and you cannot catch people with stolen creditcard details (of course I know it is not possible if its been used first time for scam) . Anyway I still haven’t got any explanation why im not seller protected.

Hope to get this escalated this as soon as possible, as they say they will investigate this for another 80 days or so.

 

So this is the reason why im out there making this post, I want to reach out to you guys as many as possible, so you do not experience this if you are a seller of you using creditcards be careful don’t trust anyone.

And this is the one of the biggest issues we face in these days for digital payment methods , im not talking about cash which also has a lot of fraud and fake. #But today its about digital payments That using blockchain technology we can make them much more secure ( sellers and buyers ) can be protected more. There wont be such thing as stolen creditcard data , you would actually need wallet private keys to stole people money. Which I think its very hard to do, a lot harder then picture data written on people credit cards…ha

 

So please please share this guys with your friends, that there is such problems in current world. If everyone of us was was using blockchain transactions between each other the world would be much better place.

I know this is happening sooner or later, but I want you to be sooner. As there is also a lot of opportunities if you are sooner then later.

So please share this and we will get this to as many people possible.

 https://i.imgur.com/XDBXez8.jpg  (https://youtu.be/pMYN1mIi6Ao)

Cryptocurrencies are great for payments if we assume that both merchants and customers are fair. However, we all know that there are going to be disputes so a third party might be needed anyway. I would not trust PayPal anymore. They have been getting worse and worse over the past few years and their fees went up quite a lot recently.


Most people are still going to expose their private keys by keeping them on a computer which has a constant access to the Internet. Credits cards are dumb, you need only a few numbers to pay with them and they are still popular because of how people like convenience.

Yes eliminating Third party like paypal save a lot of money to consumers and merchants , i think it depends on country but here in Ireland we pay 3.4% paypal fee, which is crazy high.
But also think we cannot get rid of 3rd party , as a lot of consumers will want some kind of 3rd party escrow service to guarantee they would get the goods.
I would rather suggest maybe some kind of decentralized review system , which cannot be manipulated.  That when you have built review trust as merchant, buyers wouldnt be scared to place an order.

I also am advocating to make cryptocurrency as an alternative payment method as it is much more secure to the buyers and transparent to the sellers. And if this happens major growth is sure to come in the cryptoindustry. But until that sellers or establishments will still think over about making it a payment method as it is volatile which most of them does not like.

It would take years for such system to be widely adopted. Who would maintain it? The biggest auction sites such as Amazon and eBay? How would we determine if the person who left a review had actually bought an item from that merchant? There are many difficulties and that's why it hasn't been developed yet.

Switching over completely to wire transfer is the only solution if you don't want to play around with PayPal again. However, this might discourage people from buying your products.

The volatility is not that big of a deal for the merchants as there are several payment processors that would let them convert their crypto to fiat.

The thing is we can't stop these scammers they also exist here in the crypto world. Bringing crypto to mainstream is not that easy we already saw what happened last year until the 1st quarter of 2018 a lot of bad news came up. Time and preparation is needed for cryptocurrencies to improve because if you rush everyone to use cryptocurrencies eventually these coins will experience some kind of problems until it becomes unusable.

The best way to make sure the transaction is secure is to have a peer to peer transaction. Also the reason why more sellers online with a big company does not accept bitcoin as payment because of hacking even thou it is volatile it doesn't matter because they get the exact amount of the product when it is purchased online.

Creditcards are currently using technology which is more than 5 decades old. It was not built keeping the internet in mind. Chargebacks and disputes are ways to protect buyers, but they can wreak havoc when you are a seller and you are a victim of fraud. Blockchain based payments can definitely help, but think of a buyer who has been defrauded - he will have almost no recourse.

This is the exact same reason, for which I'm afraid to use PayPal in my online business.Some scammer might order a bunch of expensive products and file a dispute for unauthorised transaction or item not received.
Paypal exists and makes money only because of the buyers.That's why Paypal is very buyer-friendly,but not seller-friendly at all.However,I don't think that cryptocurrencies will be a solution,because 90% of all online buyers want a refund option.If you offer a refund option,some scammers will try to abuse it.

This is one of the main reasons why I am using Crypto currencies these days. Gone are the days when you have to type in your Credit card details into a dodgy site that promises not to store your Credit card details, just to turn around and to steal your information and to use that to rack up a shit load of credit on your account.

I have been using Bitcoin on 3 local online markets for 2 years now, without having to risk any losses due to stolen information and that is one of the reasons why we should all be using Bitcoin for ecommerce.  ;D

There was a good guide on that forum how to use paypal to avoid any theft through it. If I find I post it here. 

If refund option is an issue then just remove it. Like just advise the consumers that there's no refund option, though it's their right to refund but it should be on a case to case basis. Just remove the refund button and if there's a problem, customers can contact the seller directly.

I must say that crypto currency will be our last resort if this thing can't really resolve and I think people that are pissed off on credit card fraudulents will agreed on this, no informations will leak and safer payment method.

Damn that sucks. I agree that Paypal needs to take some serious steps to protect sellers. Chargebacks are a fucking pain. This is indeed a good reason for sellers to adopt Bitcoin and cryptocurrency technology in general.

Still, let's acknowledge that no method is perfect. It's true that this wouldn't have happened if the buyer had paid with Bitcoin instead, but buyers don't exactly have the best protection when using it. We can see this with everyone on this forum advocating the use of escrow services when transacting with people, and we know that even that method isn't bulletproof. Bitcoin is a good solution but it doesn't solve everything. Or it doesn't yet, at least.

I think it should go mainstream right away and its already too late for most stuff to not have a tech like blockchain.

Blockchain provides you with a trust system, a way to keep books and definitely a way to show other people the legitimacy of the transactions. From accounting to insurance, from medical to real estate there is unlimited amount of systems that needs to be put towards a blockchain and get bigger and better that way.

The more we wait on these kinds of stuff the longer it will take, eventually those sectors will realize it but at that time the time required already passed, so the quicker we get blockchain into those type of stuff, the better.

I believe thay going mainstream is not the urgent for cryptocurrency and blockchain

This is still a young market and can’t even take half long of stock trading so why need to rush.

There are lots of things to consider before mainstreaming takes place,for now let us help the community be popularized by positive feedbacks not negativity

Off course, the crypto currencies are good way of avoiding such stuff from happening if they are having proper protocol or some sort of mechanism which may be Abel to trace the transactions around here. Just imagine this is the case with you and you noticed it happening but what about those people who get victimised of such cases and they don't even realise they were scammed for this one. If blockchain is blended properly with the current infrastructure of the financial system and have the traceability to the full nodes then one can save such use cases from happening.

The transition from Paypal to Bitcoin by merchants will definetly occur in the future, you just gotta be patient. You need to understand that Paypal simply works better and faster for the average user, and it's also way easier to use than having to figure out how to use a bitcoin wallet.

But as of now, this transition will not start as soon as you expect, paypal's features are user-friendly, and to the general public, that's what really matters. But once the lightning network goes full mainstream (hopefully in the next two years), and improvements are made, it'll take a while but you'll start seeing merchants adopting bitcoin as a payment option. And once people realized that with bitcoin you can be your own bank since you won't depend on a centralized system, you can expect the transition to go faster. But as of now, merchants will still opt to use paypal as it is the most popular online payment system, give it a few more years and bitcoin will be at the top.

Small update for one of the orders :

https://preview.ibb.co/eGAvje/paypal_update_1.png (https://ibb.co/icnxxz)

Has anyone dealt with this before, whats your bets if i took paypal to court would win these cases?
I think i should been entitled for refund from paypal, i can prove that goods is delivered to buyers address by dhl trackers.

I know this is happening sooner or later, but I want you to be sooner. As there is also a lot of opportunities if you are sooner then later.

So please share this and we will get this to as many people possible.


There was a good guide on that forum how to use paypal to avoid any theft through it. If I find I post it here.  
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Belive me i had enough with it now, wont be using it again :)

True some new system it would take very long time to adopt. But we didnt have such decentralized systems before, so i assume thats why it hasn't built earlier. It could be done maybe some token format run on smart contract, user identities token :)
Some of the buyers wants some safety if they shop online , specially if products are quite expensive.

We already know a bunch of reasons why bitcoin is extremely beneficial to people who choose to use it, much more so compared to the traditional fiat banking system and the services that come with it, like Paypal.

Just like you mentioned, stolen credit cards in transactions as well as chargebacks all pose a significant risk to the seller, because of the irreversibility of the transactions in those cases when dealing with fiat banking institutions. With bitcoin, there is no such risk as everything is irreversible.

Even though we know these advantages, we can't just push adoption overnight. It's a process that takes time, and there is really nothing we can do now to speed it up. You could definitely promote the use of bitcoin on your own business at the checkout, though.

The reason cryptocurrency is better than paypal is because of the trustless system wherein there is no need for someone to be nervous of the transactions since once its in the blockchain then no one can change it unlike in centralized systems wherein someone can access those transactions and then change something freely.


It's a step by step process because people cannot just easily accept it especially it is unregulated in majority of the countries and some even ban it so it is hard to promote to people when there are so many hindrances in the way. We just have to make use of our resources and introduce to people who will welcome us.

Yes we do use bitcoin at checkout also since we are in business , there is about 10-15% customers using bitcoin(and alts) as payment method. More when value is high less when value is down, understandable. I wounder is there such payment gateway that customer pays in fiat and merchant receives in Crypto something like shapeshift.

Also do not think that we cann't just start using crypto overnight. But as more people start to use as more it will be used. These value swings is what scares and attracts many people.
In my opinion think there will more pressure coming from governments as they will understand that this will disrupt current systems, but they will have to adopt.

The truth is that none of these are safe; not even cryptocurrency or credit cards are safe. I won’t advise anyone to be misusing their credit card cause that’s a huge risk and you can end up being scammed. And another thing is most sellers are not protected, but buyers.

Cryptocurrency will be in favor of sellers, but would never be in favor of buyers. I once used Bitcoin to purchase goods online, but I got scammed and the seller never sent the item and also stopped replying my mails. So they are all bad, you just need to be careful… Not even cryptocurrency is safe either.

The adoption for blockchain is well underway as many companies are already researching on its potential to be used in their systems. Decentralization is the future for data trust. But cryptocurrency may have a long way still as this is geared towards financial and very many people are keen on this.

Quite a crazy experience with PayPal and the buyers. Honestly, it is already getting glaring to so many people why blockchain technology is the future and would really remove all these unreliable third parties from the show most of the time. It might have some of its own disadvantages but in reality and when comparing to the present payment system, this is more like a freedom of payment becoming a reality.

It is a good thing you are sharing this with the community, and I personally gave up on PayPal a long time ago in terms of receiving payment as a seller as I cannot imagine tying down my funds for 80 days in the annoying excuse of not having some seller’s protection thereabout.

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Quite a crazy experience with PayPal and the buyers. Honestly, it is already getting glaring to so many people why blockchain technology is the future and would really remove all these unreliable third parties from the show most of the time. It might have some of its own disadvantages but in reality and when comparing to the present payment system, this is more like a freedom of payment becoming a reality.

It is a good thing you are sharing this with the community, and I personally gave up on PayPal a long time ago in terms of receiving payment as a seller as I cannot imagine tying down my funds for 80 days in the annoying excuse of not having some seller’s protection thereabout.
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True crypto has some  advantages then disadvantages, crypto is so hard and slow to adopt as we are surrounded by scammers. Im sick of watching every day facebook people advertising, "start mining and get 1btc a day " This is never ending story , cause indeed its easier to scam people crypto . And many people know this , and they are so afraid to purchase goods with crypto online.

I think whats we need is some kind of system that would verify and recommend merchants. A decentralized database where consumer could check company starting from details and ending from transactions....

because for some people crypto and blockchain currencies are still unfamiliar to them, they still use conventional transactions using bank services, they don't know the advantages of transactions carried out by crypto and blockchain currencies, this is a tough challenge to advance currency crypto and blockchain

Crypto mass adoption is important if we want make our transaction more faster. The obstacle is on government regulation because many government still ban and prohibit crypto if used for payment. Crypto will be usefull to make a better economy and make more eficient

They will keep trying to ban crypto as this will disrupt current taxation mechanism.

Adoption isn't something that we should try to artificially force.  It has to be a natural progression where people make the decision for themselves, because they want to.  If you recognise the benefits it gives you, great.  But not everyone will see it the same way.  And if you are trying to promote Bitcoin usage to the uninitiated, make sure you highlight the potential disadvantages just as clearly as the advantages.  Explain that it requires far more personal responsibility in comparison to the banking system they've grown accustomed to.  There are also the security considerations, where it's quite easy for new users to make mistakes and lose funds.  It's fair to say this will take time before it reaches the stage where it's user-friendly enough to on-ramp the "mainstream" users.  We can't rush things.

Yes technology simplicity usage is also a problem , cause most of the people dont want to change if it is not much more simpler and safer to use as current financial system.

Well, cryptocurrencies and blockchain technology is truly changing the way we live today and I am sure that the things will get better down the road resulting in the benefits to the global economy as a whole. The fundamental principle of blockchain is a freedom that derives from decentralization, I would say this is the democratic way of dealing with our own money. However, many entities will not agree with that because they have a vested interest in the centralised infrastructure.

I read the original post and I surely agree that stealing credit card data is easier than stealing private keys or hacking into the wallets with complicated passwords online. I hope your shop will now accept payment in the main cryptocurrencies. Paypal is a shitty thing. It is not even fully operating in some countries. For example, I am from Ukraine and I can send money via Paypal, but can't receive it. This makes transfers from relatives from other countries pretty complicated and involves crazy fees. They could simply send me some btc and pay less than a dollar for it if it was largely adopted everywhere. Transaction fees on international transfers are killing me. Oh, and at the times of ATH bitcoin could easily be pending for about a day, but hey, SWIFT payments sometimes take even longer than that!
Unfortunately, I guess people are not ready for cryptos yet. They are mainly still stuck with fiat and don't trust debit cards much, what to say about some crypto addresses! We need time and support from the merchants to make the adoption truly possible.

Currently people don't really have that much incentive to switch completely, which I can't blame them for if it concerns local payments. Centralized internet money (PayPal & Co) is however different. Bitcoin in my opinion is one of the best forms of internet money because it actually settles the payments in full and for that reason are irreversible.

If someone transfers value to you through any of the existing centralized payment services, the payment never settles. In all cases the payment services even after many years can still reverse your transactions. In other words, the money that you think is yours isn't yours at all unless your physically withdraw it from an ATM.

The same basically applies to all the people thinking it's great to use centralized crypto platforms such as Coinbase to transact through. This is no different from you using PayPal.

Even without advocating by ourselves, a time will come when people will manually reset themselves to realizing what they have been missing when it comes to method of payment as these third party financial platforms keep messing up.

It is about time honestly! Experiences like this is one of the reasons why people should understand that blockchain technology is here to solve a serious payment problem and with this in check, things would become better and faster.

I understand you. Our company has been managing fiat payments online for years now. We sell cars worldwide and each time the whole thing takes a lot of time, fees and nerves. That's why we decided to launch an ICO and release a crypto token to accept it and only it as payment for our and our partners' products. Cryptos are fast, cheap and borderless. People can use it from anywhere in the world and the deals will proceed a lot faster now. The only big tricky thing here is too make sure you don't disobey any laws by using it. Fortunately, our country is not that bad in this aspect, so we don't expect many challenges on our way to crypto adoption.

Yes we do accept cryptos from launch of the shop , but had an option with PayPal for people who has no trust and looking for some security on their side. But the biggest problem is that , paypal allows fraud and cannot do anything about it. We have disconnected and won use it ever again. And by the way they are refusing any kind of seller protection....ha funny and advertising themselves as safe payment gateway.

You're completely right about the points that you mentioned.

All centralized payment methods have the ability to be reversed, regardless of whether or not they actually say it. This is because of the fact that all of the transactions are stored on a central server/database and can be modified. Fraud happens often, and merchants are often out of pocket for these fraudulent transactions that get reversed.

With bitcoin, it's immutable. No transactions can be reversed on the network, which is a huge protection for sellers.

There are other benefits including the fact that bitcoin doesn't get affected by long term fiat depreciation, and that it can facilitate international transactions without extra fees. Bitcoin going mainstream is only a matter of time to me.