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Bitcoin => Development & Technical Discussion => Topic started by: jackg on October 31, 2018, 10:49:35 AM



Title: Outernet Bitcoin service?
Post by: jackg on October 31, 2018, 10:49:35 AM
The outernet as a thing has been out for quite a while, I’m wondering whether it’s possible to make the same sort of thin for bitcoin.

All the outernet has is 6 satellites that broadcast a connection around the globe but it just seems to be a mainly one way connection (unless I’m wrong). Anyway, is it possible to do the same with bitcoin? These satellites have a bandwidth of 50GB per day if I remember correctly.

I think I made a thread on this a while back but a few months ago, jet cash made me look at sky coin so it is possible to do.


Title: Re: Outernet Bitcoin service?
Post by: RocketSingh on October 31, 2018, 02:35:14 PM
Do you mean something like Blockstream Satellite (https://blockstream.com/satellite/)?


Title: Re: Outernet Bitcoin service?
Post by: jackg on October 31, 2018, 02:55:03 PM
Do you mean something like Blockstream Satellite (https://blockstream.com/satellite/)?

Is there a way to buy a device compatible with that? Also, it looks like it’s only one way,


Title: Re: Outernet Bitcoin service?
Post by: Pmalek on October 31, 2018, 11:11:59 PM
I think this is the thread you mentioned
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1532466.0

There was some talk about that a while ago, here is an article I was able to find
https://www.rtl-sdr.com/receiving-the-bitcoin-blockchain-from-satellites-with-an-rtl-sdr/

And one more...
https://news.bitcoin.com/outernet-can-bring-real-life-use-cases-bitcoin-ecosystem/


Title: Re: Outernet Bitcoin service?
Post by: jackg on October 31, 2018, 11:18:32 PM
I think this is the thread you mentioned
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1532466.0

There was some talk about that a while ago, here is an article I was able to find
https://www.rtl-sdr.com/receiving-the-bitcoin-blockchain-from-satellites-with-an-rtl-sdr/

And one more...
https://news.bitcoin.com/outernet-can-bring-real-life-use-cases-bitcoin-ecosystem/

Ah yes! I have since liocked that thread otherwise bots generally start posting on them.
And at least I was first to the idea (should’ve got a patent).


Title: Re: Outernet Bitcoin service?
Post by: gmaxwell on October 31, 2018, 11:56:54 PM
And at least I was first to the idea
Not even remotely.


Title: Re: Outernet Bitcoin service?
Post by: jackg on November 01, 2018, 09:49:44 AM
And at least I was first to the idea
Not even remotely.

Proof? :)



I still want to know if there’s a 2 way system for this, if not it’s pretty redundant,


Title: Re: Outernet Bitcoin service?
Post by: gmaxwell on November 01, 2018, 07:20:11 PM

Here are a few randomly selected public IRC discussions about satellite transmission of Bitcoin data.

Quote
--- Day changed Tue Jan 03 2012 (#bitcoin-dev)
16:25 < gmaxwell> Eliel: If you can raise about a grand a month I'd be glad to run a satellite blockchain feed that can be recieved by fairly inexpensive hardware.
--- Day changed Tue Jan 31 2012 (#bitcoin-dev)
08:53  * cjd thinks the future holds someone leasing a satellite transponder and any tx which pays him a few thousand satoshi gets pushed to the satellite and bcasted to thousands of nodes simultaniously.
08:53 <@gmaxwell> cjd: So I've gotten quotes in sat bandwidth, it's pretty cheap if you don't want much.
08:54 <@gmaxwell> cjd: at least for capacity on C-band transponders.
08:54 <@gmaxwell> Yea. :( well, its easy, but you need either a bigger antenna or low data rate.
08:55 <@gmaxwell> cjd: with a big (1.5m) antenna I can easily bit the blockchain in a 10KHz channel that costs only $50/month.
--- Day changed Sat Mar 10 2012  (#bitcoin)
10:12 < gmaxwell> And if you want to think ahead, it's quite easy to broadcast blockchain updates via satellite... and it only takes on transciever to heal the network in a disconnected zone.
--- Day changed Tue Dec 04 2012 (#bitcoin-dev)
14:03 < gmaxwell> jgarzik: Old C-band sat bandwidth is not terribly expensive.  I got a quote a while back for $350/month for 100KHz bandwidth on a bird that should be visible to all of north america, central america, and some of south america.
14:04 < gmaxwell> and 100KHz is wide enough that you could fit the blockchain maxrate there with low order modulation and lots of FEC and hopefully pick it up with a fairly small dish even though its cband.
--- Day changed Wed Feb 20 2013 (#bitcoin-dev)
12:04 < gmaxwell> bandwidth on old C-band geosync sats  is cheap... we could be brodcasting the blockchain for <$100/mo.  Antenna is pretty big though.
12:04 < gmaxwell> Bandwidth on stuff that can use a small antenna is more expensive, alas.. though I've never gotten exact quotes on it.

But hey, if you want to take credit for suggesting something that we'd been discussing for at least 4 years and had even started to implement before my post, knock yourself out.  That isn't half as crappy as wishing you'd patented it and thus actually gotten in the way of anyone actually doing it...

Quote
I still want to know if there’s a 2 way system for this, if not it’s pretty redundant,
Kinda sad that you claim to have come up with it but seem to not get the point.

Two way isn't all that that interesting, relative to the complexity/economics of it: There are 1001 ways to send a transaction.  There are commercial two way sat internet services-- they charge by the byte and would cost about $50k - $150k per month to get the blockchain streamed,  but only cost cents for a single transaction.  You can send single transactions by SMS, you can send them on QR codes printed on postcards.  You can send them along with the order you make to the party you're paying however you are doing that, etc.



Title: Re: Outernet Bitcoin service?
Post by: jackg on November 01, 2018, 08:47:47 PM

Here are a few randomly selected public IRC discussions about satellite transmission of Bitcoin data.

Quote
--- Day changed Tue Jan 03 2012 (#bitcoin-dev)
16:25 < gmaxwell> Eliel: If you can raise about a grand a month I'd be glad to run a satellite blockchain feed that can be recieved by fairly inexpensive hardware.
--- Day changed Tue Jan 31 2012 (#bitcoin-dev)
08:53  * cjd thinks the future holds someone leasing a satellite transponder and any tx which pays him a few thousand satoshi gets pushed to the satellite and bcasted to thousands of nodes simultaniously.
08:53 <@gmaxwell> cjd: So I've gotten quotes in sat bandwidth, it's pretty cheap if you don't want much.
08:54 <@gmaxwell> cjd: at least for capacity on C-band transponders.
08:54 <@gmaxwell> Yea. :( well, its easy, but you need either a bigger antenna or low data rate.
08:55 <@gmaxwell> cjd: with a big (1.5m) antenna I can easily bit the blockchain in a 10KHz channel that costs only $50/month.
--- Day changed Sat Mar 10 2012  (#bitcoin)
10:12 < gmaxwell> And if you want to think ahead, it's quite easy to broadcast blockchain updates via satellite... and it only takes on transciever to heal the network in a disconnected zone.
--- Day changed Tue Dec 04 2012 (#bitcoin-dev)
14:03 < gmaxwell> jgarzik: Old C-band sat bandwidth is not terribly expensive.  I got a quote a while back for $350/month for 100KHz bandwidth on a bird that should be visible to all of north america, central america, and some of south america.
14:04 < gmaxwell> and 100KHz is wide enough that you could fit the blockchain maxrate there with low order modulation and lots of FEC and hopefully pick it up with a fairly small dish even though its cband.
--- Day changed Wed Feb 20 2013 (#bitcoin-dev)
12:04 < gmaxwell> bandwidth on old C-band geosync sats  is cheap... we could be brodcasting the blockchain for <$100/mo.  Antenna is pretty big though.
12:04 < gmaxwell> Bandwidth on stuff that can use a small antenna is more expensive, alas.. though I've never gotten exact quotes on it.

But hey, if you want to take credit for suggesting something that we'd been discussing for at least 4 years and had even started to implement before my post, knock yourself out.  That isn't half as crappy as wishing you'd patented it and thus actually gotten in the way of anyone actually doing it...

Quote
I still want to know if there’s a 2 way system for this, if not it’s pretty redundant,
Kinda sad that you claim to have come up with it but seem to not get the point.

Two way isn't all that that interesting, relative to the complexity/economics of it: There are 1001 ways to send a transaction.  There are commercial two way sat internet services-- they charge by the byte and would cost about $50k - $150k per month to get the blockchain streamed,  but only cost cents for a single transaction.  You can send single transactions by SMS, you can send them on QR codes printed on postcards.  You can send them along with the order you make to the party you're paying however you are doing that, etc.


What if I’m on a ship in the ocean? Do I have to wait to dock somewhere with good WiFi then.

A 2 way service is essentially what I’m questioning here and whether it’s at all possible to do (also, a way to buy something that’ll connect to those block stream satellites would be good too :) ).


Title: Re: Outernet Bitcoin service?
Post by: gmaxwell on November 01, 2018, 09:01:16 PM
A 2 way service is essentially what I’m questioning here and whether it’s at all possible to do (also, a way to buy something that’ll connect to those block stream satellites would be good too :) ).
There are a dozen different two way satellite services... they cost like $10-$20/mbyte transfered, which is fine for sending a transaction here and there