Bitcoin Forum

Also posted @ reddit
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zyf1w/sellachi_llp_vs_mtgox_discussion_of_fee/


Selachii LLP
London
7th March 2014 www.selachii.co.uk

Selachii LLP have now received enquiries from more than 1,000 potential Claimants following the collapse of the MT Gox Bitcoin exchange. We have retained the services of Nigel Power QC and Daniel Rogers of 7 Harrington Street Chambers to pursue these claims. There are obvious advantages in costs for group action or actions to be pursued against Mt Gox (and/or Tibanne KK and Mark Karpeles) for fraud, negligence and/or breach of contract in Japan, the USA and/or England. Because of this, Selachii LLP are in advanced talks with Japanese and US lawyers with a view to combining resources and keeping costs to a minimum.

As Mt Gox have filed for bankruptcy protection in Japan, it is important to realise that establishing liability against the company may not necessarily result in the recovery of damages, a position which will be carefully monitored. As in all litigation, there is a cost risk for a Claimant if that Claimant were to lose the litigation. However, we are examining options for Insurance policies that would protect Claimants from such costs. Further and detailed advice from Counsel regarding appropriate litigation insurance and also the prospects of success of any claims will be forthcoming to clients in due course. However, more detail regarding the losses is required in order for us to provide this advice and guidance to clients.

A questionnaire has been prepared which will give sufficient information for every potential claim to be assessed quickly. Counsel will provide a full opinion on the merits and advice as to how matters should be taken forward by the 24th March 2014, or 7 days after receipt of the questionnaire, whichever is the later date.
The fee for Counsel and Selachii LLP to initially build a case, obtain evidence and undertake fact finding will be 2 BTC per claimant.

This fee will also include:-

(i) The written Opinion from Counsel referred to above, with regular updates as your case progresses.
(ii) Management of your claim generally
(iii) Negotiation with Lawyers instructed by Mt. Gox (and others)
(iv) Engaging in the Bankruptcy proceedings
(v) Liaising with law firms in USA/Japan and any other relevant jurisdictions in respect of issuing class action proceedings.

It is felt that at this stage, it will only be viable financially to claimants to join in the class actions if they have 7 BTC or more.

We would be grateful if each client who wishes to proceed would return the signed questionnaire and terms of business (with certified ID as per the questionnaire) by email and post. The claim will then be processed when funds on account of 2 BTC arrive (address TBA).

It is important for claimants to understand that a claim will only be issued if negotiations fail. If it becomes necessary to issue claims, consideration will be given to the filing of class actions in whichever jurisdiction is deemed appropriate for your case. At that stage a further quotation will be provided (if necessary) for the costs relating to litigation, although consideration will also be given to proceeding on a contingency fee basis.




--------------------


Sorry but i think this should be discussed, many young people in bitcoin are likely very new to the legal world:

The pricing is 2 BTC for initial legal costs = $1200, if you get near 1k people that is over 1 million dollars before we get started.  Fully aware this would cost huge amounts with individual cases.

1.) Approximately how much extra could be charged from selachii if the MtGox case goes further?

2.) Is the 2 btc refunded if MtGox open for business in say a weeks time & have the ability to pay everyone back?

3.) Why 2 btc?   (Dont always have to round up to whole bitcoins if pricing things in bitcoins guys :)). There is no price break down for the 2 btc.

Note: I will personally find 2btc amazing value with some kind of result or guarantee btw
  
4.) Will selachii be waiting to see MtGox's plan for rehabilitation before charging any clients?

5.) Will clients be asked to pay 2btc before knowing insurance policy details/potential success of any claims?

I really think you should hold off on charging 2 btc until we know more from Mtgox or another idea would be charge for an application admin fee & any any initial legal work up to this point.    The negotiation cost could come later.

Anyone else have concerns please post.

______________________________________________________
background history on Selachii LLP:

https://i.imgur.com/XJg8Rxe.jpg

source: http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/
& search Selachii

link given by selachii to confirm their background/experience:

http://www.sra.org.uk/solicitors/firm-based-authorisation/abs-register/597443.page

links to other related threads:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MtGox/comments/1zn09i/selachii_trustworthy/
_______________________________________________________________________
A concerning review on history of the selachii directors brought to our attention by http://www.reddit.com/user/Donutmuncher:

"I read the whole thread on http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?367574-payday-loan-taken-out-2-years-ago-now-capital-credit-management-Lasker-International-taking-my-money/page4 when the Selachii directors were (allegedly) involved in debt collection.

It appears Richard Howlett (Capital Credit Management) was working behind the scenes with Simon Taylor (Lasker Int) to get debts paid back but denying they knew about each other. They both are directors of Selachii now. "
_______________________________________________________________________

So everyone knows, im assuming 'bitcoinsolicitor' is connected with Selachii LLP
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=212314

The pricing is 2 BTC for initial legal costs = $1200, if you get near 1k people that is over 1 million dollars before we get started.  Fully aware this would cost huge amounts with individual cases.

Yes we have been contacted by approx 1000 people. We have people who have lost 1 BTC or less and others who have lost many thousand. For some people unfortunately our proposal will not be viable.

We may release a second proposal for smaller claims at a later date.


1.) Approximately how much extra could be charged from selachii if the MtGox case goes further?

This is impossible to accurately answer. If there are enough validated claims from a certain jurisdiction then there may be enough funds to issue a claim if necessary. If further funds are required then a new proposal will be provided.

Please note that the fee is not just for a potential group action and includes the following:

(i) The written Opinion from Counsel referred to above, with regular updates as your case progresses.
(ii) Management of your claim generally
(iii) Negotiation with Lawyers instructed by Mt. Gox (and others)
(iv) Engaging in the Bankruptcy proceedings
(v) Liaising with law firms in USA/Japan and any other relevant jurisdictions in respect of issuing class action proceedings.

2.) Is the 2 btc refunded if MtGox open for business in say a weeks time & have the ability to pay everyone back?

Please see above. If Counsel have started work on your matter and advice has been provided then no refund would be due. It would be brilliant news if everyone was paid back by Mt Gox in two weeks :)

3.) Why 2 btc?   (Dont always have to round up to whole bitcoins if pricing things in bitcoins guys Smiley). There is no price break down for the 2 btc.

Why does no one query this with fiat currency pricing? Often services and products are for sale for £10 or £100 or £9.99 or £99.99. Rarely do you see fixed fixed service prices at £9.34 or £913.45 etc

Obviously we did have a choice here when pricing our service.

We could have said £749.41 GBP (which is an odd number :)) and let people choose to pay with GBP or BTC.

FYI you can still pay the fee in GBP / Pound Sterling.


Note: I will personally find 2btc amazing value with some kind of result or guarantee btw
 

Thank you - we think so too. It is not cheap to retain the services of a QC and Barrister to work on these matters. However it is simply not possible to guarantee success in any type of litigation.

4.) Will selachii be waiting to see MtGox's plan for rehabilitation before charging any clients?

 As per above

Please note proposal includes:

(iv) Engaging in the Bankruptcy proceedings
(v) Liaising with law firms in USA/Japan and any other relevant jurisdictions in respect of issuing class action proceedings.


5.) Will clients be asked to pay 2btc before knowing insurance policy details/potential success of any claims?

The 2 BTC is for:

(i) The written Opinion from Counsel referred to above, with regular updates as your case progresses.
(ii) Management of your claim generally
(iii) Negotiation with Lawyers instructed by Mt. Gox (and others)
(iv) Engaging in the Bankruptcy proceedings
(v) Liaising with law firms in USA/Japan and any other relevant jurisdictions in respect of issuing class action proceedings.

It is not possible to advise of individual success of claims until Counsel have reviewed full details. This is why we have asked for the 'Information Questionnaire' and any documentary evidence of losses.

Insurance will only become relevant if a claim is issued. If this needs to happen a quote will be provided. The cost will be shared between claimants. More claimants = less to pay


I really think you should hold off on charging 2 btc until we know more from Mtgox or another idea would be charge for an application admin fee & any any initial legal work up to this point.    The negotiation cost could come later.

What do you think is a fair fee?

Thank you for your questions and comments.

For a fast answer to any questions please email info(at)selachii.co.uk

I sent you an email last night about my interest in joining the suit.

As for what is a fair price for your legal services, that is a difficult question.  $1200 is certainly not exorbitant, but I also don't exactly understand what I would be getting.  When I think of the $1.2 million that your firm would be collecting, that is a lot of money.  I would think it could easily employ three attorneys and three staff to work on the case full time for a year.

If it is $1.2 million to file some papers and make some phone calls, and do a few weeks worth of work... well that might feel a little different.

Could you give any insight on why or why wouldn't you be willing to work for a percentage of what is recovered?

Perhaps a hybrid model, everyone pays 1 BTC to participate at first.  Beyond that initial payment, you are working for 10% of what is recovered.

That would give me more comfort because I have to pay out less initially and I would know our interests were aligned.  There is a chance you would end up getting a big payout for your services, so it seems fair to your firm as well.

My thoughts exactly  ;D

My questions are:

1. Did Selachii already determined with Japanese authorities (police, prosecutors) whether MtGox notified them (and when) of the theft of bitcoins from MtGox's system?

2. In case MtGox notified the authorities of the theft, what is the current status of this criminal investigation and have the suspects been identified?

I don't understand why this is being taken seriously.

Mt. Gox is in Japan and in the local equivalent of liquidation.  You can sue them in the UK and win a trillion pounds sterling but there is no way to collect a penny.

Re: Could you give any insight on why or why wouldn't you be willing to work for a percentage of what is recovered?

Please see proposal.

This is covered in the last paragraph:

''At that stage a further quotation will be provided (if necessary) for the costs relating to litigation, although consideration will also be given to proceeding on a contingency fee basis.''

It is not possible to offer a contingency fee at this stage as we need to validate clients claims.

A questionnaire has been prepared which will give sufficient information for every potential claim to be assessed quickly. Counsel will provide a full opinion on the merits and advice as to how matters should be taken forward by the 24th March 2014, or 7 days after receipt of the questionnaire, whichever is the later date.

Open debate is more fruitful for impersonal generalized topics.



Approximation based on past experience? accuracy not needed


Will you be taking payment of 2 BTC before 24th march?


Im not sure we should be charging ahead on some of the above until we know more from MtGox should we?



If some payment is needed right now because we need to start this early as possible? I think it is fairer to charge for what is needed as we go - so take 2 or 3 installments on the 2 BTC etc.  

I guess if we hear nothing from MtGox by the 1st of april it starts to look more ominous so that could be final installment.

First installment maybe charge for application & admin + initial legal ground work.  So for anyone who wants to get application in now... first installment = 0.5 BTC - 0.66 BTC?  < just a guess at cost.

Else, we are paying $1200 for application review + initial legal work with no refund possible & MtGox could reopen next week for all we know.

Thank you for all your replies and suggestions.

I should hopefully be able to provide an update within 24/36 hours.

I'm not sure what to make of this. This small firm doesn't have an office in Japan, do they? Their web site doesn't indicate that they have any experience litigating in Japan. Or even outside the UK. They don't list their attorneys and their qualifications.

Note that the 2BTC fee does not include litigation. It's just to get started.

Names of Counsel are in the proposal.

The proposal should answer most of your questions if carefully read.

We are in advanced talks with a law firm in Japan.

Everybody is free to seek their own independent legal advice and can choose to contact law firms in Japan direct.

Dear Selachii,

Thank you for interaction on this forum, its one of the reasons i was drawn to you.

You must understand despite us bitcoiners beating the crap out of eachother on the forums we are a community who share the same overall values & who will look out for one another.  

Those who got goxed are hurting.  Mark K has fed us vague answers for many months & we need great reassuring, specifics + open debates at this time.  

Ideally we need our priorities as #1 & law firm priorities as #2.  Its not like there isnt a big pot of money waiting if Selachii were to win.  Im sure many would be very happy to pay you more than 2 BTC each if you get all coins back.  I know i would with 100% coins returned.

Also its not like you cant charge an application admin fee for anyone signing up now.  Although i do think other legal processes are too early as do many others.  

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zyf1w/sellachi_llp_vs_mtgox_discussion_of_fee/

We are happy to hear why its not too early to progress now with legal action?

Make it impossible for us to not go with your firm.  Join our community.

Kind regards

2btc x 1000=2000 btc

it s a bunch of money to start a case


i was thinking they ll be paid on no win no fees basis

It's about 95% certain that Karpeles stole the coins, or was involved in a market manip scam to sell them to cover his lawsuits and debts.

He has a history of jail time for financial crimes when he was younger:

http://johnbercow.tumblr.com/post/78352765925/mt-gox-guy-mark-karpeles-went-to-jail-before-for


He also scammed a French out of $30,000, which he used to purchase MtGox.
(the scammee took years to track him down and sue him in Japanese Court, which he won...)

" A €5,000 ($6,870 USD) down payment is placed.  Mr. Karpelès returns several months later with bad news.  His hired graphics artist failed to complete a subcontract on time, so the first stage of the three-step development process was stall...."
 
 "That was a complete lie.  According to court records, Mr. Karpelès could never provide any evidence that there was a subcontractor.  By all appearances he had simply taken Mr. Dubois' money, done no work, and then invented a fantasy to cover himself."


http://www.dailytech.com/Bitcoin+King+Mt+Gox+CEO+Mark+Karpels+History+of+Arrests+Firings/article34442.htm
http://www.dailytech.com/Bitcoin+King+Pt+II+Mt+Goxs+Dictator+Karpels+Proves+Tragically+Flawed/article34452.htm

I'm no legal expert, but due to Mt.Gox's bankruptcy protection filing, wouldn't any legal action be completely useless at this point?

Also, you're asking upfront for 2 BTC/user. As others have noted, even if this could be a reasonable price per user (which BTW I don't think it is), it totals quite a lot of money when multiplied by 500/800/1000 users.

Nope. They have not been approved for civil rehabilitation. Also , any evidence of Fraud could get everything siezed and his personal assets could be at stake.
You guys need a warrant to search his personal property.

http://www.humint.is/goxcoin  is another way

Can we get also get this cleared up please selachii:

"I read the whole thread on http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?367574-payday-loan-taken-out-2-years-ago-now-capital-credit-management-Lasker-International-taking-my-money/page4 when the Selachii directors were (allegedly) involved in debt collection.

It appears Richard Howlett (Capital Credit Management) was working behind the scenes with Simon Taylor (Lasker Int) to get debts paid back but denying they knew about each other. They both are directors of Selachii now. "


source: http://www.reddit.com/user/Donutmuncher

i would not be surprised if later on we ll know that these sollicitors are one of the sharks who have tried to take btc from desesperated mtgox customers

what does this mean? are there enough claimants from germany to have a good chance for getting the needed funds? since i lost a lot i'm willing to pay the 2BTC anyway but it would be good to know if there is a significant amount of claimants from my juristiction (germany)?

Thank you for posting. And more information here
http://letstalkbitcoin.com/e89-goxcoin-and-the-meta-lair/#.Ux-z0F7OVwQ

more about this:

http://www.reddit.com/r/MtGox/comments/1zn09i/selachii_trustworthy/

http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1zyf1w/sellachi_llp_vs_mtgox_discussion_of_fee/


not so sure about the 2BTC anymore. i do understand, that claims have to be validated but therefore 0.25BTC or even less should be sufficient. since mtgox has bankruptcy protection and there is absolutely no way to know how this case will further develop i think WhatTheGox has a point:

I'm not sure what to think of this firm. But the fact that they don't have offices in Japan means they will probably be less effective than a firm that does. Nothing on their site indicates that they do international law or bankruptcy.

Christopher Mirick, a partner at the international law firm Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman (http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/03/05/mt-goxs-bankruptcy-case-will-be-unlike-any-other/) talked to the Wall Street  Journal about what it will take to resolve this case. This is one of the world's leading international bankruptcy lawyers. Read what he had to say.

Resolving this mess is quite possible, but expensive. The big-law approach would be to hire a firm that has offices in Tokyo and some other major cities around the world. Big firms have the resources to analyze a huge mass of confused records and find out what really happened. They use forensic accountants, computer security experts, interrogators, paralegals, translators, document databases, and other tools. Little firms without such resources may not be able to address this mess.

Will be watching how this plays out. Thank you for the link.

I note from the US release a couple of hours ago that the swift US chapter 15 bankruptcy was with the express purpose of stopping a US class action set of creditors gaining precedence over normal creditors and preventing fair repayment to creditors under japan's civil rehabilitation thing - and if I've understood correctly tomorrow a US hearing will decide whether paying 75k to US lawyers to make sure that chapter 15 protects assets from being frozen by the US class action guys is reasonable (i.e. in the interests of all creditors not just some)

so my question for working out whether selachii is worth it - is what's the equivalent for a UK led class action ? does chapter 15 in the US also protect the assets from the selachii club ?

and today it seems the US class action guys won and got the assets frozen first. Does this mean that some creditors are now more equal than others* ? Where does this leave joining up with selachii ? are we all supposed to join chicago ? any ideas ?

*ref : george orwell

Looks like the US guys are actually making progress;

The decision, according to Dore, was a victory for client Gregory Greene, the main plaintiff in the suit. In winning the temporary restraining order, he says, the plaintiffs will now be able to move forward with discovery proceedings.

"We view this as a big victory, this is often something that would take months to do," Dore told us.

"We are going to be able to unpack and examine what Karpeles and his entities have been doing and understand what the assets are," he said.

While Selachii is stuck asking for money from its "clients,"
It's concerning they are asking for bitcoins, IMO, as well.


Here is the US law firm working on the case:
http://www.edelson.com/


IMO, the end result is fraud. Karpeles allowed DEPOSITS and TRADING while the exchange was knowingly insolvent. That's unacceptable. It's actually sad that he hasn't had a warrant served already.

2 BTC is about two hours of lawyer time. It costs you that much to get acquainted.

They're not overcharging. The question is whether they can do the job in Japan from the UK.

Why this is being taken seriously? I think it shouldn't

yeah, but only if you've made a name for yourself and won a couple of comparable suits.

but even then, isn't the whole point of group/class action, to be more cost efficient?!

only point (ii) will generate extra individual costs! 0.25BTC should be sufficient to get started (validation of claims & Engaging in the Bankruptcy proceedings). IF there is going to be a lawsuit they surely have to charge more but on a contingency fee basis.

or am i missing something?

Questions & concerns in this thread still not addressed?

Vultures are serious business.
It's interesting to see them spend time on an effort to raise so much money from us.

So UK company want to sue japan company based on UK law ?!

Our clients call us on + 44 (0) 20 7792 5649 or email info(at)selachii.co.uk for updates and advice.

Or please book an appointment for an in person meeting at our London office.

If you would like to obtain advice from any other law firm in England and Wales you may find firms here:

http://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk

Or if you would like an estimate of costs and advice from a law firm in Japan you will find some here:

http://japan.usembassy.gov/e/acs/tacs-7113.html

Did anybody join the selachii suit? If so, could you report how it proceeds?

Did those guys ever actually do anything other than solicit customers? There's some action in the Tokyo District Court, but it doesn't seem to involve this outfit.

I didnt join because they didnt answer Q's & concerns.  I dont think any lawyer can do that much right now anyway?

I do not understand why this is so valued.

It has faded, people are not paying the high fees.

I think it's more likely that everyone googled Richard Howlett and Simon Taylor..... and realised what a pair of scumbags they really are.....

Two things.

1. This is obvious, there are risks that you will not win your case. Why make your clients pay up front if you will purchase insurance against loosing? Wouldn't it make more sense to simply have the insurance company "front" the law firm the money for expenses and then repay the insurance company in the event that the case wins.

2. I am not sure about the ethics rules outside the United States, but my understanding is that in the US it is against ethics rules for attorney's to advertise for their services. This looks a lot like an advertisement.

3. (I know I only said two things but there is a 3rd point). Suing GOX would like lead to a lower recovery then would otherwise be received as GOX has limited assets that are less then total liabilities and would incur additional costs in dealing with a lawsuit.

This sounds very much like a scam to me.