Bitcoin Forum

I ordered a TREZOR last September for 1 BTC.  It was supposed to be out in Oct/Nov.  Due to problems which were never really detailed they asked us to be patient and wait until Jan, then Feb.  It is now March 7th, and the last communication was last Feb 11th, stating the cases were misprinted and they had to reprint them.  That's it, nothing more. I would have expected weekly reports of progress after the first delay. 

There seems to be a trend with companies serving the Bitcoin community and I for one want to see it end.  People trust the companies more than they trust each other.  As a result these companies come in and promise goods and services then fail to deliver or decide its no longer in their best interest and the consumer gets holding the bag.

To name a few
- BFL
- Mt Gox
- Take you pick on the security trading sites, where the company that raised the funds is the only winner.

I really don't need to recap all the scams that have taken place.

For the record I did tout in my book that TREZOR could change the Bitcoin economy.  I should have been clearer, what TREZOR offers can change the Bitcoin economy, not TREZOR itself. 

The Federal Trade Commission has a rule called the 30 day rule which states

"When you offer to sell merchandise, you must have a "reasonable basis" for:

    any express or implied shipment representation, or
    believing you can ship within 30 days of receipt of an order -- if you make no shipment representation or if the shipment representation is not clear and conspicuous.

Whenever you change the shipment date by providing a delay notice, you must have a "reasonable basis" for:

    the new shipment date, or
    any representation that you do not know when you can ship the merchandise."

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule


This exists so that companies cannot sell you something then drag out the delivery.  They, did state that this was a pre-order.  However, they also stated that shipment would start in oct/nov.  Then they stated they had some difficulties and were delaying to jan/feb.  Now they gave some bogus reason that the box was not just right and they only waned to send out perfect boxes.  Last I recall it was not the look of the box but what was inside it that matter.  As a matter of a fact from a information security stand point, a plain non printed box would be better for security.  I planned to scrape off any reference to the TREZOR anyhow.

So here are with yet another company thinking they are going to change the Bitcoin world and for that reason, we the simpletons should wait on them.  BFL certainly felt that way, and one of the emails I received from TREZOR this evening certainly expressed the same notion.  Heck look at their web site, they are convinced that they will change the world.  So much so that that should have been the first red flag.  I guess I missed it.

I get why the Bitcoin mining hardware vendors sell pre orders.  They can sell far more if you have no idea what your return will be.  Its something they have used to prey on would be miners.  I also get why it works, because everyone wants to be first.

I think this mentality or way of thinking that we can trust these companies to deliver is not safe or productive for the community.  I know I will no longer trust anything on pre-order.  I have been burned enough times (every time).

I hope this posting saves someone the grief.  All I really want is to strengthen the community.

-Michael

Don't sign up for pre orders, you are at best funding development and taking a huge risk you won't receive anything for years.

I think it's telling that Trezor uses Kris Henriksen in the marketing of their product. Henriksen is apparently touted as an expert on secure storage of Bitcoins.

http://www.bitcointrezor.com/ (http://www.bitcointrezor.com/)


Here's more on Henriksen's security skills:

http://www.businessinsider.com/thieves-stole-1million-from-bitcoin-bank-2013-11 (http://www.businessinsider.com/thieves-stole-1million-from-bitcoin-bank-2013-11)

Aren't the Trezor guys from Czech Republic, why would they care what the Federal Trade Commission says?

Yep.

Honestly, I wouldn't trust a guy that couldn't even write sane documentation for the stratum protocol. This and the fact he delayed stuff so many times.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.  :)

Like all investments, it comes down to due diligence.

Pre-orders are an unfortunate part of the business model, but I wonder if fewer people would have ASIC miners without this model. Absent pre-orders, would bitcoin mining be more centralized and less competitive?

Nothing,   I was making reference to the 30 day rule to point out why it exist.  You are right though, unless they are in a commerce treaty with the US that enforces US trade laws if they do business in the US, the rule means nothing.  I guess I have some homework to do.

Well, at least you don't have to worry your Trezor "won't ROI." :)

I beg to differ ion the ASIC miners.  We certainly could have and would have had them with out it.  People still would have bought them if someone announced, we have ASIC miners come and get them.  the only difference is that only large capable companies would have entered into the market.  they would have done so when the market could support it.  As it is the premature entry caused a lot of damage to the trust in the mining community.

With out pre-sales the problem is that people would be able to see what their ROI would be on the spot.  The sales of the devices would be 1/3 or 1/10 of what they are now, as a result of people not knowing 3 to 12 months in advance.   This over selling of equipment will have a negative impact on the Bitcoin community as a whole.


Non the less if you really think, want to think, or need to think that in 3 to 6 months the hash rate really won't go up that much and I haven't missed the boat, you might just buy.  If however you knew the rate today, there would be far fewer ASIC Miners selling.  So the pre sales posture is all about maximizing the sales for the hardware vendors.  Anyone that buys after the first month of a new technology coming out, is going to be in a for a big surprise when they get their equipment.

Everyone always asked why don;t they just mine with the equipment themselves.  Because if they pre sell too many, ythey can make more money selling the hardware.

Again this supports my point that we as a community need to move away from pre-sales.    It sounds like most that reading and replying already realized that.  That's awesome, I'm really trying to make the case so that others not there yet can get there.  Thank you for the support.

So True.

even in the czech you 30 days after payment confirmation before the company meant to inform you of delays and offer a refund

if it does arrive within that time then you also have 7 days after delivery to decide if you want to keep it or send back and get a refund

http://europa.eu/youreurope/business/sell-abroad/on-line/index_en.htm

so if you dont like it you can ask for your funds back. oh and they cant pay you in tree's or candy .. if you paid with bitcoin, then that is what you get back.

to add to that the only liability (loss) the customer has would be cost of sending the goods back. so seeing as no goods have arrived you can happily ask for the full and actual amount you initially paid.

which im afraid if you ordered in december ($1000 a coin) your bitcoin is now less, although its still bitcoin

I ordered in Sep with $100 coin.   I wanted the device, so even in Dec when it was worth $1000, I didn't ask for a refund.  My asking now is only due to the fact that I no longer have faith in their ability to deliver.

I did ask and they refused.  The claimed and I quote:

"We think its good to aim at making the bitcoin world better and safer. Your contribution has helped to make it possible. TREZOR will help many people protect themselves against exchange robberies, their own computer vulnerabilities etc. Thus we consider feeding lawyers and spending our (mutual) time on international disputes over a 1btc contribution to funding a project as unproductive."

From an email sent this evening.

If they truely felt this way, then they would consider refunding the BTC.
"We think its good to aim at making the bitcoin world better"
"we consider feeding lawyers and spending our (mutual) time on international disputes over a 1btc contribution to funding a project as unproductive."

I understand that they wanted to development on my dime (BTC), and I gave them the chance.  They failed to deliver.  Now all I can do is put them out of business.  In doing so we can speak loud to the next company that comes in half cocked like BFL, TerraHasher or TREZOR, Get your ducks in a row and deliver.

so they advertise it as a pre-order. but once received, they class it as a contribution.. wow now thats a BFL business model right there....

lessons to learn. unless they have a working demonstration product, ready to then simply mass produce.. then do not believe its a pre-order

Are the guys behind Trezor on WoT?

http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=slush but I'm not that sure that looking at how much some members of a company can be trusted to trade bitcoins OTC will give you an accurate hint on how much said company can be trusted to deliver a hardware product, even if I read The Post  ;D

If you want the latest news, you can start  browsing the code (https://github.com/trezor) or at least the commit logs - then you'll see that the project is moving along quite well, with a full test suite now available.

You can plan as best as you can, delays are pretty much the norm when you manufacture hardware. Hell it even happened (http://bitbet.us/bet/636/cardano-delivered-before-christmas/) to the master of all things bitcoin :(

In my opinion pre-orders still help coming up with new hardware ideas having a significant design cost, but you should only take part in a pre-order for new setups growing from the developer community where the guys have a proven track record (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1976.0) - others can, well, chase investors like everybody else does.

in the real world, pre-orders have a 30 day grace period.

if a company cant make a product, and deliver it in that time. they should not be requesting pre-orders, but a kickstarter fund with an incentive that those that invest will get x amount of product dependant on their investment level. or a profit after the prodct actually starts selling (once manufactured).

no company should confuse pre-order money, with manufacturing and design investments.

that's fine, I guess we agree then - just make the mental exercise to replace "pre-order" by the above proposal when you notice a company launching a final pre-order you plan to take part in, and choose wisely - I feel a bit sad to see Trezor compared to BFL here ;D

In the real world, companies make their case to banks and investment firms that they function as a company and turn a profit.  If they fail they are responsible to them.  In the pre order world created here in Bitcoin world, if the company fails they simply tell us to hang in there. 

Well this'd be why S.NSA isn't taking pre-orders for their Cardano.


Which is why you wanna be on #bitcoin-assets (https://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=bitcoin-assets).

http://www.bitcointrezor.com/news/2014-03-13-public-demo-trezor-status