Bitcoin Forum

1-2: While they do have a big influence on price and can definitely manipulate it, I'm afraid there's really nothing we can do about this. They got in early and believed bitcoin even when most people didn't, and they deserve it in my opinion.

3: It doesn't matter. Bitcoin is open-source; people can make as much bitcoin versions as they want. By the way, you can also create your own version of the USD, but will anyone use it? Same thing with all the crappy bitcoin forks.

4: Some use bitcoin as payments, some use bitcoin as a store of value, and some people use bitcoin to earn profit by selling it when it goes higher. What's the problem though? Isn't financial freedom one of the main points of bitcoin? People should do what they want with their money.

Whales can not create forks of bitcoin, only members of the Bitcoin core team can split the currency.
As for altcoins, there is currently no regulations and just about anytime next can create their own coin, or more commonly a token built on another platform

It's difficult to know exactly how much whales control. Some analysts speculate that several million BTC are actually lost, which would lower the circulating supply considerably.

Sure, whales definitely exist, but their coins are becoming increasingly distributed over the years. When I first started watching the charts years ago, whales buying and selling thousands of coins at a time was much more common.


That doesn't seem like a big deal. Cryptocurrencies are permissionless, so anybody can spin off a fork if they want to. It's up to the market to decide whether those forks are worthless or not.

Isn't that a good thing?

I think that it was the whales who spoiled the idea that bitcoin was carrying.

The btc coin has a lot of advantages, but they all disappear when the crypto-community stops believing in Bitcoin due to manipulations.

As time goes by the whales will sell their stash and their control will dilute.

Some whales are not interested in manipulation.

Over time as the fiat value of BTC increases and BTC holdings get diluted the definition of a whale will change.

1000 BTC
100 BTC
10 BTC
1 BTC
0.1 BTC etc

How many 2009 whales still have their entire stash ?

you are mistaken because things you are listing here have nothing to do with bitcoin or its "execution" but it is all about the way people have been using bitcoin and have been dealing with it.

for example you can't blame someone who has seen the potential of bitcoin years ago and bought a lot of bitcoin for cheap price and became a whale today. for example about 3 years ago when people were calling bitcoin dead you could have invested $50k and buy 250BTC which is currently worth $1 million and be a whale but YOU didn't do it while others did.

as for forks, it is how an open source project works. we can't close bitcoin's source! it is again the idiocy of people who bought those shitforkcoins...

I totally agree... also Bitcoin is unusable as a form of payment when it sees mass adoption which is the biggest problem of all. 

How do you say so? Have you actually tried to transact using bitcoin lately? Or is your opinion still stuck in late 2017? I really don't know what most of you are talking about. Bitcoin's transaction fees have been significantly low for a good number of months already. I don't think I've even paid a half a dollar transaction fee since January.

this is just your perspective not the reality.
you can check the payment processors to see a small part of the total amount of payments that are happening through bitcoin. they are processing millions of dollars worth of transaction. and that is only one payment processor (bitpay) there are more and also there are a lot of merchants that are accepting bitcoin directly without any processor.

I do not understand your point at all. Most of the things that you listed are positive sides of BTC. It is completely normal that someone has more influence over it when they were the ones that started the vehicle turning. Think about it, what would have happened with BTC if it wasn't bought by 'the whales' as you call them. When any product is released in the market it has to be purchased and desired in order to survive. Non of this would happened if it wasn't for the people who believed in BTC when it was created and released to the market for the first time. And any investor can manipulate the price if he is big enough, if any big investor decides to sell his BTC, it will have the impact, it is a normal law of supply and demand. All of us have different interest for entering this market and the things that you listed in the number 4 are possible options that you have. But you are free to select what will you do with your coins. For some of us it is not a payment method, it is an investment and that is perfectly fine. Maybe BTC will be so spread around and used for daily transactions that his value as an investment will be lower. But you are the one who is making that decision.

I think if this was the reason you fell in love with bitcoin then that reason still exists. It is still peer to peer electronic cash. Instead, If you fell in love during the 2017 bull run then these feelings maybe withdrawal symptoms from the recent <4K breakup. Lately, many of the 2017 newbies are feeling this way. Don't worry.

That again depends on you. Majority of the people in developing countries just don't have the kind of access to a developed p2p market to enable them to spend bitcoin. So they hold in the hope that all these rich westerners will again go crazy buying stuff in their free market and push the price up.. ;D
If you are in a country that allows you to use BTC for financial transactions, start a service with it. Sell stuff for BTC. You could easily do a lot if the conditions are right.

The idea that we will be able to buy dinner, newspaper etc using BTC is something that is there for us to look forward to. However, the situation in the world is a bit different and I am not sure if anyone can offer any time frame when will this be a reality. The cold fact is that the most BTC owners purchased it as an investiment to keep it or further on sell and earn money on the price fluctuation. I hardly doubt that anyone purchased it so that he can buy online on Amazon, ebay etc.

I think that bitcoin will be one of the future currencies seen from current developments even though bitcoin today has reduced prices but this is part of a market where everyone is panicked by the price of bitcoin which continues to fall but trust me to return price then we must be patient waiting for bitcoin prices to rise again

I agree with all 4 sayings, but it is advantages as well as disadvantages. You can sell forks and get free money, trade and get high profit but with high risks.

There is always a risk, if you invest in any asset in the market, there is a risk. Of course, you are there to calculate the risk and the gain. Greater risk, greater gain. For me personally, BTC is not that risky, it only requires a lot of patience because it takes time for it to start making money. The fact is that BTC can not go under and stop to exsist. It has a limit and once, there will be no more coins to be minded so it will be a restricted asset and therefor, the price will rise.

1. whales controling large amount
  the thing is holding large amounts is meaningless.. holding does nothing. as for selling. well thats temporary. once they sold it they dont hold it any more to do anything again. so just let the temporary event pass.. enjoy the discount and then after the dip recovers. you are the one benefitting because you now have cheap coins and a profitable price due to the recovery.


3. if a disagreement occurs altcoins are made.
  those actually wanting to make altcoins can do so whenever they like. no drama.. but when consensus events of new proposals happens it should not result in an altcoin split. its either
feature doesnt activate, whereby proposer goes back to drawing board to design something the community would accept..
or
consensus majority upgrade and stalled minority(stuck)..

what should not happen again:
fork off majority to force fake head count of a smaller community where half population left to vote to seem as a majority

yes people have the freedom anytime to make their own altcoin without drama. but if an upgrade is proposed. its not an oppertunity to cause an altcoin to push opposers out. thats not consensus that just control mandating a feature in

There's no need to put whole post in bold. We can read it just fine. Bold is for making parts of the texts become more visible. If you write everything that way you're defeating the purpose.

Wrong, they control only a small %. Since we have 17 million in circulation and at least 10% has been lost forever, and there's Satoshi's coins, there's less Bitcoins than you might think. Even if 50% of the rest is controlled by whales, what does that change? It's only around 7 million and I'd argue that this is an overestimation.
Whales had to buy their coins from someone. Don't sell and you won't be helping the whales.


Only to some extent. They have to sell to manipulate  the price with their coins. If you buy and hold, you take this ability to manipulate from them.

You can also create a new altcoin. Does that make you a whale?


You talk like a panic seller.

Whales are everywhere in every market. Maybe we'd do the same if we were a whale ourselves. It doesn't mean Bitcoin has been "badly executed" @Marcel666 Not true, not only the Bitcoin Core team can create a fork. Anyone can do it. And regulation or not is not going to stop people to create an altcoin.

The execution cannot be said to be faulty at the same time, its not the fault of those who were able to have been involved early into the crypto currency world at early time. The reason for that, was they took enormous risk which they themselves are not sure would pay off which eventually did. Its has the disadvantages though which is what we are seeing today as a group of people can just determine the direction they want price to go without any recourse to every other participants in the market. Hopefully, the ownership would be diluted and control would be difficult to exert by few people.

I don't agree that Bitcoin is badly executed, that is not true. Besides, you can't say that just because the price is dumping and you have suffered some losses because, let's face the truth, many users start with criticism toward Bitcoin exactly in such unfavourable times.
Of course that Bitcoin has certain issues and problems like every other technology, it's not perfect and there is a room for further progress but it's actually great exectued having in mind all the obstacles it has on the way.

all problems will be solved very soon and I think that we will see a new wave of price increases soon

This is still happening in other economic sectors. You can see a big company always trying to control other companies the way they want to find the best profit. In Crypto, if you're a low-capital investor, take advantage of the whales by going back and forth to make money.

Bitcoin not only a currency, its a store of value too. As store of value, bitcoin can be a digital gold. Its true that right now whales hold the biggest percentages of coin, its because they use large amount of money.

Be patient mate, those whale will not hold big amount of bitcoin forever, they will sell it. Now they sell it and make bitcoin price fall , actually this is our chance to buy bitcoin at low price, I don't say to buy bitcoin now, I personally will wait until Bitcoin price reach $1500 then I will buy it again when I can see there is a signal of bitcoin price pump. If theoretically bitcoin is a good idea then the execution will be good too, just need to wait. Now we are playing with big whale.

Bitcoin must be the currency used in everyday life, so that adoption of Bitcoin continues to increase, but as you say, most people don't want to spend Bitcoin and tend to save it as an asset.
Bitcoin forks are the developer's idea, and it's offered and promoted, so nobody forces you to buy a Bitcoin fork.

The OP'S post is about value but it doesnt matter really. The ideal way
to look at bitcoin is in bitcoin not FIAT so when the markets fall down
you really havent lost anything. 1 bitcoin last month is still 1 bitcoin today
unless you spend it or a portion of it.

The volatility of the moment is like a trick, or it can be a challenge that investors create themselves. Keep calm and do not be afraid that BTC will die, or BTC has bad idea or anything ... just a fake. BTC's prices will return quickly in the near future and do not worry about anything 8).

BTC has paved the way to blockchain for the people. Many wanted to understand what it was. The popularization of cryptocurrency has reached a completely different level. Now we see a market crash. But this is a reason to think and make a new blockchain. There is no progress without problems.

for a tuzemun Sure consolidation above 12 is more than enough for the investment to flow like a stream, but this is a powerful, very powerful resistance. But from 12 to 20 and above is within easy reach, there were no particularly large trade deals, as these levels quickly passed through.

In principle, even if we consolidate above 8.5, it is also a completely convincing reason for investing in a bit, but there is also resistance))) buy it off)

Creation of new coin or controlling how it's been created isn't what Bitcoin was meant for. That's solely based on the blockchain technology, which pave way for new projects to be launched on it through smart contracts of the Ethereum Blockchain (at least most projects).

Sometimes I find it a little funny when trying to blame the whales that try to manipulate the market, when in fact the common users are the ones that have the power, but of course if they fall into any FUD or FOMO that is presented in the market, they fall directly into the influences of the whales and lose while playing their own game.

The whole problem lies in the games of rich people who manipulate the market.

I think bitcoin has a great future when I can pay for gas with bitcoin.

and for making BTC more dominating than other currencies, we need a long process. even very difficult to adapt to the public, because some people do not support.

only developed countries can adapt to BTC, such as Japan, USA, South Korea.

For once, try and understand this that there is no mistake with bitcoin execution. People are just creating the problems we see. I think what we see with bitcoin was intentional, just to make bitcoin very scarce. The higher fees,  and the block size that people claim to be too bad are all not a problem.  Satoshi knew all these will happen so why don't we just use it as it is and stop the many forks?

Forks are just a new way to destroy bitcoin and anytime there is a fork,  it negatively affects bitcoin

If people talk about whales, they instantly think of manipulation. People don't understand that whales mostly aren't actually looking to manipulate the market by causing big movements in the price.

If you have way more funds on both sides of the order book, and that in a market lacking depth, which applies to crypto, a simple buy or sell order will likely cause a 5-10% movement.

People need to let go of their whales are manipulators way of thinking. If people are able to catch a pump, whales are the best entities in the world, but when they are on the wrong side, whales suddenly are called manipulators. ::)

even if it is true, it will be easily manipulated on their part. This is proven how about the split problems from BCH that occur and of course this has an impact on market prices. 80% of altcoins right now is more like a projects for hit & run. Investor right now is trying to recover their assets

If you are a real supporter of the idea of Bitcoin and decentralization, then you should not care about the price.
I believe Bitcoin is still in the first stages and being manipulated by whales is normal (with more people using Bitcoin, whales will not be able to manipulate the market anymore).

OP your first 4 points could apply to any currency around the world, those that are powerful will learn how to manipulate the market to become even more powerful, that is just the way it is or do you think there are no whales in fiat? Of course they exist and they can manipulate the system in easier ways than what the bitcoin whales can do in this market.

The extended points added by OP, although already discussed to death here at the forum, merit some discussion.

He is mostly concerned about how to Get Bitcoin. First thing you have to do is to free yourself from the bias against early adopters. You cannot expect to mine a few hundred BTC like it's still 2011. Assess the present situation and you have folllowing options:

1.Mining:
For anybody interested in getting Bitcoin, getting into mining might be a good time now with hash rates falling a bit. BTC mining per se is difficult business. Though you can look at mining ETH or some Alts using GPUs. It isn't as big an investment and it is also a safer option because of the resell value on GPUs.
Remember that if you really want crypto to survive and believe in it, the present electricity costs will be your investment which you can easily recover when we get into the bull phase.

2.Research::
There are a plethora of startups trying to use blockchain in every aspect from databases, finance, gaming to cloud computing. The space is filled with shit ICOs and bounties so a good research is your only way to separate wheat from chaff. If you are an individual with an alternate income source, you can easily devote sometime to research and all. If you are looking to earn peanuts and pocket change through incessant facebook shares and meaningless tweets, then it is no use discussing these nuances in the first place.

For a normal individual who isn't a blockchain programmer, these two are the only options i can see where you will not have the risk to burn your hands and will actually learn something, as well as contribute to the whole space.
Good Luck!

That will happen in the future but now let's face the problem of decreasing of bitcoin until now day by day happening maybe next year that i thought it will recover.

This is mostly side effects of decentralization, we can say that this happens when a financial organism like this is not controlled by a group of individuals, I do not understand very well how the fork mechanism works, but I imagine that as most cryptos are open code, anyone can open a new block with its code and get enough miners to confirm it, that's why forks happen.

I did not see proof of the existence of these whales and of these manipulations, but if they manipulate is because the market is still very small, eventually the market will be very large it will be very difficult to be manipulated


I agree with you, these hard forks are meaningless and confuse people, I see no reason for people to be creating those hard forks. today has bitcoin cash, bitcoin Diamond, bitcoin gold, bitcoin private, we have strange altcoins like jesus coin... dude, this is all sad


But that's because we're still to depends of regulations to make it possible to use bitcoin in the real world without having problems with governments, banks, Visa and mastercard.


How could you buy bitcoin without KYC? that would not be possible


truth

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fan-fiction-library/images/d/d2/Laugh.png/revision/latest?cb=20140913233219

As we all know what bitcoin's promises are, we didn't see enough realization. But it doesn't mean we will not. Bitcoiners are challenging against enemies which they are regulators and banks. Unfortunately,  doing everything at the same is very difficult.

Beyond a bad execution I think the major problem here is greed from relevance seeking individuals that use to be within the bitcoin inner circle.

Bitcoin was created to create a new industry so people can invest their money like stocks. Bitcoin is increasingly known as currency, and many people are using bitcoin as a currency to pay in the deal. I believe that Bitcoin will achieve what you desire.

Yes it's true, bitcoin has become a job for anyone who needs it and bitcoin is also a fast, easy and safe exchange to use but all the potential of bitcoin cannot protect every asset invested in it.

Unfortunately until now we haven’t reached the "21 M". If we look at coinmarketcap, the number of coins currently in the circulation are only 17.3 M.


Right, but no (http://yubster.com)t just in Bitcoin, I think every market is like that and until now there is no solution for this.
This is because of a fundamental problem that they don't agree with, if you are in their position I'm sure you will do the same thing like they did. This has two sides, on a hand Bitcoin lost its big players and on the other hand this enlivened the crypto market and the spread would be wider because they would fight harder to save their money.
For now I personally see Bitcoin as an investment asset, indeed sometimes I use it for transaction but it’s so rare, especially if it compared to using FIAT.

That is very ironically
BTC is all about removing the man in the middle  its about peer to peer its about freedom 
but  it brought the worst man in the middle Exchange with  KYC "know your customer"  policy
which is under total control of the banking system
why they need to know their customers  ? this not a banking system
This is the biggest bad execution of BTC the only way for the public to get it  is via exchange which will allow ONLY  certain countries in addition to KYC
exchange is worst man in the middle in BTC system
BTC: will remove bank
BTC:you need exchange to get it
 

I have no issue with people how get earlier good for them as some one explained once they sell they are out of control 
could you explain the layer of exchange to get in with KYC policy and restricted constitutes list
how come the coin which will replace the current Financial system is restricted based on country