Bitcoin Forum

Let's take the credit card companies as an example for this explanation. When a credit card is reported stolen, the service provider <Bank> are notified and the credit card is blocked. They are able to do that, because they have 100% control over that technology.

Now, let's apply this scenario to a Bitcoin address, where major merchants can be notified to block any transaction, that are coming from that address. <Think of Supermarket chains and Fast food franchises and also fuel companies.> Let's say you donated money to Wikipedia and your government does not like that, well they can link that address to you, if you re-use that Bitcoin address at any of these companies and they can push that information to a wide selection of other merchants and services that accepts Bitcoin payments and order them to block payment received from that address. <or any address linked to that Bitcoin address>

Ok, that might sound extreme in the 1st world countries, but a lot of dictators in 3rd world countries will not hesitate one second to do that to their citizens, if they had the technology enabled to do that.

Also, if people knew your Bitcoin address and they linked that to your personal information, then they will be able to gather a lot information from that one address. They will know how much money you have invested in Bitcoin and also what your spending habits are and even where you live. <You buy from a ecommerce site and they courier the goods to your physical address.>

This information in the wrong hands, can be very dangerous, so YOU have the right to hide that information by any means possible.  This is where the Mixer services comes in handy. :->

Is this legal? Probably not in most countries, but it just gives you the same level of anonymity, similar to when you withdraw cash from a ATM and spending it randomly at merchants.

Does this help criminals to hide their identity too? Yes, but as we have seen with the Internet, technology comes with it's advantages and disadvantages. The internet are used to distribute child pornography and enables terrorists to communicate and it is also used by money launderers to launder their dirty money, BUT it is used a lot more for legal things like emails / browsing useful information / ecommerce / social media etc.

Mixer services should not be branded as a tool for criminals, but rather be applauded for it's contribution to our financial privacy and protection from all the criminals and Con artists out there.   :P

These are just some of the reasons why we should use Mixer services to protect our financial privacy, there are lots more. {Financial Stalking /Bribery/Selective Marketing based on individual spending habits/Kidnapping  to name a few}

Media and people like very much to "label" everything around them, to make a clear black vs white distinction.
The fact the mixers can be used also for bad made everything easy. Of course, many forget that US Dollar can, in the same way, be used for good and also for bad.

I've got used with this kind of labeling. It's exactly the same with anonymous coins. Many don't want to understand that the correct level of privacy doesn't mean everybody want to misbehave.

Living in a society wherein the word 'anonymous' is synonymous to 'shady' and 'illegal,' you'll surely have groups of people opposing the idea of anything normal done in anonymous ways, and mixers are no exceptions. While true that there are people who use mixing services to cover-up their nefarious doings, there are some of us left that wants to just dilute our spending activities from the watchful eyes. I get the sentiment of some people accusing mixers as a tool to cover-up fraud and scams but anonymity is also important nowadays given the left and right leaks of information, hacks and whatnot that is already plaguing the society.

Exactly, and with projects like ECHELON < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON > we basically know that all communication are traced and archived, so your personal data are not your own, once it's on the Internet.

If they can store that amount of data, then it must be a lot easier to store Bitcoin addresses and also linking them to individuals. The Blockchain <without Mixers> gives them the whole tx history linked to a specific address and modern software like Chainalysis gives them the whole picture at a push of a button.

The attack on our financial privacy are coming from all sides and we have a basic right to protect ourselves.  ;)

Mixers help with privacy, but I don't feel uncomfortable using a debit card to pay for everything online, and tracing bitcoin transactions requires a bit more effort than when the name is given rightaway. At the same time, though, transactions are not public with fiat. I am not against bitcoin mixers, I just never had a situation when I wanted to use one, I guess. And I don't think mixers are illegal. I never heard of it.. Is it because of AML policies? KYC is not required to sell cryptos for fiat in my country anyway, and I doubt anyone's interested in my transactions anyway.

Ah, yes. You highlighted even more reasons why Mixer services should be used and that is exactly what I wanted to do with this thread. I hope more people will now see how important it is to use Bitcoin correctly <not re-using Bitcoin addresses and also to use Mixer services>

There are alternative options like Alt coins targeted at privacy <Dash / Monero etc.> but their merchant network are limited, so you will be restricted to sites that accepts those coins.  :P

Mix your coins regularly if financial privacy is important to you. Note that Mixer services charge fees for this service.  :D

I'm not just worried about government surveillance or being branded a criminal, although those aspects do influence my choice to use mixers and other privacy-enhancing technology. Today, we're increasingly seeing unprecedented levels of third party tracking by everyday internet companies. Combined with insecure websites and protocols, we're constantly leaking personally identifying information that is stored in various databases (sometimes indefinitely).

Let's say you buy some coins on Coinbase, then withdraw to a wallet you control. If you're not careful to separate those coins from your identity (as well as your IP address) through mixing, your Bitcoin wallet can potentially be used as a treasure trove of data about your activities.

Well, mixer is a very complex thing to consider in Cryptocurrency because yes, we do understand that it will not be the illegal stuff who will always use this thing and benefit from it and we, also the normal and legal users could benefit with this kind of technology to protect ourselves from the thieves and etch.
But the thing is if the mixer is applied in cryptocurrency, how would the service provider identify or prevent illegal stuff? Or else, they would let those illegal users have the service? If that happens, the authorities would not be able to track the illegals or the service provider would never risk their reputation to let those things happen too. And yes, it's too complicated.

I often say privacy is a right, not a VIP membership.

True that mixers are often labeled as the bad boys, but we rarely talk about the banks too, also used for "illegal activities" and why? People already forgot for example HSBC? I could give a lot of different examples like this .

In the crypto market, privacy will be an important part of the system. Sure currently you can't really spend your coins like you can do with BTC but don't forget that the demand is not as big as BTC hence the market is not so developed. Let's mature the privacycoins, we will have a real demand and sooner than what you may think. There are some altcoins like Horizen making privacy their main motivation and these altcoins will be a lot more popular.

Mixing bitcoins will help with privacy but the coins are not fungible. It would require a major upgrade the code to make bitcoin private and that is unlikely to happen. This why anyone serious about being anonymous is choosing monero for privacy.

People are smart to find something safe and something profitable. It's like win win solution,right ?
Trader want something more anonymous , people want something profitable from crypto so why don't their are doing mixing service to make crypto more untraceable than ever ?

It's a business !

Let's not generalize. This can happen only if you use centralized exchanges with full KYC to acquire coins. If you mined or earned your coins through various means, even as trivial as a forum signature campaign, there's no way to link your identity to the donation.

This is happening all the time when you're buying stuff online. There are companies dedicated to collecting information about your spending habits or habits in general.
It's really easy not to get your ID linked to your address. You need to start using p2p exchanges or buy and sell in person, like in physical currency exchanges.
By using mixers you're trying to patch a hole. It's always better to make sure the hole doesn't appear at all.

I completely agree that labeling is bad and mixers are not only used by criminals. I think that we all also remember the times when Bitcoin was labeled as something illegal and used only by criminals. In fact some people still have the same opinion.
Although it's true that mixers are used for some illegal activities it's used also by ordinary users and we have to set the boundaries. Everything that has good purpose can also be misused but to make general conclusions is very bad. And we all have the right for privacy and mixers are one of the tools that can enable that to us.

That would be a daunting task, especially if you make a lot of transactions on a daily basis. Sooner or later there will be enough information to link all these transactions to a certain person. For example, you want to pay for something in cryptocurrency but you don't have enough dough in one address, so you have to choose a few inputs in your wallet. In this case, these inputs with their respective addresses can be easily linked to one person

Some of these addresses can then be traced back to an exchange where you bought the coins and left your digital footprint, and so on until they find out who you are, what you are, and how you are. Though I agree that mixers are not solving the issue of anonymity, they are patching it. Adding privacy features to Bitcoin protocol would likely do the trick but it may also cause a lot of resistance from governments

See the ZCash example what it might look like in practice

You missed the first part of my post where I wrote:

This can happen only if you use centralized exchanges with full KYC to acquire coins. If you mined or earned your coins through various means, even as trivial as a forum signature campaign, there's no way to link your identity to the donation.

Of course, your various transactions can be linked to one wallet if you're not careful or have to send transactions every day, but linking transactions together doesn't mean linking them to an ID. If I went to a physical exchange right now and buy some coins with cash, the trail ends. THere are FB groups where people are trading anonymously, if you google your town + sell bitcoin, you will find someone willing to trade in person.

In fact, I was not replying to that part of your post

But ultimately it's irrelevant as sooner or later (and rather sooner than later) you will make a fatal mistake that will allow the prying eyes to get a clue about who you are and so on. Still, as you mention a forum signature campaign, it is a big hole which makes it possible to link your forum identity with your Bitcoin address. This will most likely be the final step in revealing your real identity (i.e. who you are in real life), especially if you happen to live in the US

This is also showing us that Bitcoin is actually not very private all because the transactions we are doing with it are all recorded and once an address can be linked to someone then things can started to be seen for the whole world. So the old thinking that Bitcoin can be utilized for criminal activities since it is anonymous is all a fallacy. And this is the reason why those people who are concerned for their privacy (for good and bad intentions) can use mixing services always available to anyone for some fee.

It was never "private", to begin with

Satoshi himself makes special reference to this fact in his white paper. He says that Bitcoin is not anonymous but rather pseudonymous. When Ross Ulbricht was arrested and Silk Road brought down in 2013, it became abundantly clear that Bitcoin doesn't cut it as a truly anonymous and private means of payment. And after a few FBI agents got caught trying to steal a few Silk Road coins, it became clear even to the FBI themselves

Everyone have a choice to use a new system and more competent against asset that he had. Many countries banned bitcoin because the reason of anonymity which they always doubted to adopt, whereas till now they can track all transaction which is conducted by bitcoin user that is in his country, but they keep distrustful and reluctant to accept bitcoin. a fact that must be kept in mind when they give reasons for not accepting bitcoin.

So, if the aim for everyone not to use a mixer service just because they are afraid of their government do not accept bitcoin well, then I don't believe it is a mistake because until now the government is still not regulating it for the same reason. OP, thank you for has enlightened my thoughts to encourage me to use a mixer service because it is very useful.

Well, if you do not re-use the same Bitcoin address for all purchases and trades, then you should not have a problem and there are other options apart from Mixers to protect your financial privacy, but it might be more expensive.

It is not to say that you should use Mixer services to circumvent government monitoring and surveillance, because they too have a obligation towards citizens to protect them from criminals and terrorists by monitoring transactions. The thing is, some corrupt governments with dictators should not have this information, because they can do more harm than good with that information.  >:(

Exactly, what we need is just privacy and that does not mean we are going to make a criminal activity.
People have different reasons why they want privacy and I know everyone if given a chance to be anonymous will choose to be.

I know this mixing service for awhile now but I have not been interested in using it since admittedly, I am not transacting a big amount of crypto, but I believe once my lucky bring will come, I will not think twice of using the service.

Money will make you vulnerable to criminals but with privacy it will make you safe... (that's why mixing is here)

It is not about only corrupt governments with dictators

Actually, the majority of nation states are doing this, some less with some more. But that's not the point. If you are that citizen and don't consider yourself a criminal or terrorist, why would you agree to being monitored by the government in the first place? As I see it, it is your right to circumvent such monitoring and surveillance unless you explicitly renounce that right. Benjamin Franklin once wisely said that people willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both. I fully agree with him. Do you?