Bitcoin Forum

After the Fed, ECB, BoJ and PBoC printed over U$ 300 trillion in debt (free money because this debt will never get paid) now non-reserve currency countries want to join the party too.

Argentina is printing free money for their own purposes: https://twitter.com/dlacalle_IA/status/1119660655005634565

"The big guys are doing it, why can't we do it too?"

Why does the US get to print money to save their banks? Why does China pump their stock market by printing more money whenever the stocks dip?

This may be the beginning of the new crash: every country out there decides they want to do quantitative easing too.

US banks got bailed out, why can't governments get bailed out?

See where this is going?

Here is the a short article regarding this:  https://www.dlacalle.com/en/five-reasons-for-the-weakness-of-the-argentine-economy/  (https://www.dlacalle.com/en/five-reasons-for-the-weakness-of-the-argentine-economy/).

Simply said on the article, "Argentina has been, for many years, a country with the potential of a developed economy and a monetary policy of a third-world country." Printing free money for their own purpose causes the value of their money to reduce, making it's ability to buy goods lesser which causes inflation. Printing too much money without even equivalent economic activity or growth will lead to inflation.

Didn't the existing system crises of the world economy have always emerged for this reason?

Let's make a simple calculation. How much do you think a $ 100 banknote can cost? I think it costs less than $ 1 per piece. But we think $ 1. In other words, the Federal Reserve is able to obtain $ 100 with a low cost of less than $ 1.

I think this is a huge event for USD, which is valid for almost every country on the world. If USA wants it, it can create millions of dollars with a very simple decision to make money.

As profesor explains in my introduction to Economics in my early years at the university, countries have enormous economic power even by controlling money supply. With the simple money creation process, USA can help the world economy. I'm guessing that they already did.

I think this is possible as long as the US economy growth is great. What if they overuse it? Does this make their inflation high too? Knowing they have the most economic power and they control large money supply?

I think if Argentina will do this most small countries will do too.

If thats the warning then what is Venezuela? Argentina WAS bailed out, without anyone expecting it, back in the 2000s by none other than Hugo Chávez, who literally saved Argentina when she was defaulting on her debt and no one wanted their bonds. Chávez ordered a massive buyout (using Venezuela's money, mostly from State oil PDVSA and taxpayers) to help his friend Kirchner, and the bonds suddenly soared so high that Kirchner sold them and paid the entirety of the then Argentina's debt with it.

But then socialist policies came and wasted all the money again, and now nobody bails Venezuela which is in a far worse position and for a far longer time now. 60% yearly inflation? try a million and see if you like living with 5 USD a month, that's the Venezuela where a de-facto government INSISTS in financing all the insane socialist spending by adding money digitally (because printing banknotes is too expensive in this day and age).

I don't understand how someone like Macri who is a businessman would agree to fall into this trap. If you can't pay your bills start shrinking that State, sell what needs to he sold and re-float the country like you would with a company in red. If he lets the socialist thinking prevail, Argentina will have a much grimmer future, just look at Venezuela.

Well they are actually not printing physical fiat money anymore, because with fractional reserve banking, they simply create money from thin air. <changing ledger entries when they borrow out money that was deposited>  The Banking system have learned nothing from the 2008/2009 near economic collapse, because there was no repercussions for their bad behaviour. <Some got huge bailouts from the tax payers money to balance their books and others even got huge bonusses for supposedly saving these Banks from bankruptcy.>  >:(

The third world countries like Argentina and Venezuela and Zimbabwe have to take desperate measures to save their economies, but they are just digging the hole deeper for their own demise.  >:(

Quantitative easing in the economy helps solve difficulties in a short time and recovers the economy that is about to fall into crisis. But we can see this will soon negatively affect the whole economy of these countries when inflation rises, and money no longer has an initial value, then governments will implement policies. What next?

I am not surprised. Typical Latin American country with Socialist government, and as usual they have run out of money. The people in that part of the world have a tendency to vote for governments that offer freebies. No one wants to work hard and if someone has the balls to stop the freebies and subsidies, then he'll lose the elections.

The desperate measure here could be to legalize Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies overall thereby providing all of their citizens an alternative mode of payment which could possibly improve their economic condition.

This would help drive adoption higher too which is why this would be a win-win situation.

for the present time it is appropriate to use and legalize it, so that later it will be able to improve the economy of the community so that the country's economy can be helped, even though it is like the country's bets

Wow make some more baseless assumptions. Those so called capitalistic paradises like United States has a lot of homeless people living in tents and eating out of trash cans.  This isn't the fault of socialism, its because of corrupt people in power.  No matter how good a system is in place if corrupt or stupid people are in charge it will fail.

I am not interested in the activities of significant countries because I know that Bitcoin cannot print more, and its price is increasing every hour. If Argentina continues to write money for free, it will cause the country to fall into an economic crisis when inflation may appear.

i wouldn´t compare usa government with Argentina government. Here in Argentina is crazy how much influence the goverment have in the central bank and how they mess with the dollars reserves to pay old debt and leave worthless IOU in exchange. This year de inflation is going to be 50% and the interest rate in pesos are 67%. The peso will get destroyed the next few years and i hope we either create a crypto-peso to replace it or maybe use the dollar as currency to reduce the inflation. 

It is crazy how government just manipulate the currency as they want, but does not this lead to their currency going down since they are printing it out, but obviously this is one of the cases where we knew about it, but for sure they have been doing it for years under the table the same as the other countries where money is being printed and put to banks, if this keeps going it will lead to a finical crisis, the same as the case of zimbabwae where they have a currency of 1 trillion dollar worth only 0.4 actual us dollar.

The part where you said the debt will never get paid is interesting. Could it be how they run this thing or you are just assuming?
I once thought the huge debt are used to scare citizens and  to compel their governments to spend responsibly whereas most of the debt probably won't get paid in the end?

Well we can't do anything if the governments print so much money and some of them just destroy a country economy and people lives, but indeed someone should stop the debt if possible.

 they do not save the market by printing money, because when printing a lot of money, the value of the currency will decrease and it will show up on the balance sheet in the forex market.
they just adjusted their economy by printing money, not making their country richer by printing money. :D

It leads to a global collapse of th econnomics. Which has long been predicted by science fiction and filmmakers. Remember fantastic movies mostly use loans there. There is a possibility that humanity will come to a new single currency, but it will not happen soon the century will pass.

It is surprising news for me, as I cant believe that a government do this kind of thing. Do they even think what are the bad effects of printing more money? I do believe if it is happening in my country then there will be non stop demonstration against the government's decision.

That and adopting Austrian economics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_School) (such as full reserve banking (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-reserve_banking)) else the scare mongers will point at how a deflationary coin is ruining the economy instead. To go deflationary, you must also follow Austrian economics. Argentina like most other countries has only seen the Chicago economics (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_school_of_economics), which is the prevailing one worldwide, and the cause of eternal bubble and crash cycles. Socialists love to lie by pointing at this flawed school and portraying themselves as the only solution, because the free market is at fault, while the reality is that the Chicago school (and the Keynesians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynesian_economics) before) are at fault, not a truly free market.

Once the people learn about the Austrian school of economy, no socialist lie will ever prevail again. This is what Macri and all others need, no more populism or socialist traps that would only ruin it all as it always does.

Such a good solution. Everyone can print as much money as they want, but not everyone can stand. US and China are the biggest powers in the economy and they can do it based on something. Can Argentina do it? Do they ignore inflation?  ???

America, for now, gets away with printing money  as they are a Reserve currency. The world does business in USD and this partially ensures that their money printing  (cough quantitative easing) can continue. The currency is used by everyone. Obviously this has limits as people start using Euro and others but we haven't hit that floor on the house of cards yet.

Argentina though... well I've visited the country and it is an awesome place, but no one, except aregentina would use their currency to do business. They are putting themselves at risk of very high inflation and recession at this rate.

Many banks are in deficit lately and the entire banking system is suffering economic depression at the moment, many of them are in dept and the government have to.safe the day by ordering the central bank to.print new currency to avoid a total economic crisis in the financial system.

What this has to do with the homeless people? Do you think that the percentage of people living under poverty line is higher in the United States when compared to these Latin American countries? Socialism is a failed ideology and examples are out there for everyone to see. And when there is a combination of corruption and socialism, it gets even worse.

The thing wth bailing out these institutions is that at the end of the day, the monetary base is increased and that ultimately depreciates the value of money in the long run. Same with quantitative easing, you are literally inflating the money supply to artificially stimulate the economy. Perhaps this is useful in the short run as a countercyclical mechanism, but I don't think it'll do any good in the long term.

As you said, it's not necessarily just Argentina either - it's many countries around the world doing this. Banks who are too big to fail.

To a lot of people, this fiat system is not sustainable and will eventually collapse. I guess it's why people look at bitcoin as a hedge against the fiat monetary system right now, and a store of value, since it can't simply be manipulated or debased by the government the way QE can be carried out. I doubt though that a paradigm shift will come until after a major collapse in some country.

I've heard it described like this: quantitative easing was the fail-safe which we would only use if the economy was going to be totally screwed without it. Well, we burned that plan already and we have absolutely nothing to protect us from a scenario that is just as bad as 2008/09 again. If we get round 2, the fiat economy is almost guaranteed to collapse, and in a really bad way which will take tons of people down with it.

But I could be wrong, who knows if they'll just inflate it all away again and everyone is just left poorer. That may happen, and if it does, you know that the entire economy is scuffed. Everyone towards the lower half will get completely screwed and anyone holding assets will just sit back with the same purchasing power as before. Can't say that it'll be a good time to have any savings in fiat since all that value will be inflated away. Bitcoin and precious metals will actually be one of the best stores of value in one of those scenarios for the common man.


Just as a note, the only reason that banks are too big to fail is that we've created an oligarchy of banks and too many people rely entirely on them. If we had proper competition with smaller banking groups, we wouldn't have this crap happen.

You're spot on mate, really good explanation. May l add that the risk for the USD is increasing lately as we are witnessing an increasing trend of 'money swabs'. China and Japan, and a few other countries. this will allow these countries to trade without using the USD.

If this keep happens then the world economy will be crash. In this game, the strongest country will be win. The price of national currency is depend on the economic strength, military strength and political strength of the the country it self. In this case if USA print money regardless the amount of gold that it has then it's not a problem for USA but it will not always like that because there are many countries which always competting against USA in Economics sector such as Russia and China. However this system is unfair, maybe all of us will use gold again as medium of exchange. Who know?.

Doing this is the same to declaring default. You must never do this. Now there will be a stampede of people wanting to get rid of the Peso, and the situation will quickly spiral out of hand, unless you abandon socialist ideas of "control" and embrace the (truly) free market.

Your banks are failing because of the fractional reserve system. With full reserve banking, banks can hardly ever ever go broke, and if it does, all the money in saving accounts remain there for withdrawing, only money that was lent voluntarily by the account holders could be lost.

Unfortunately this is not what you are doing, as most countries keep following the flawed Chicago school of economy, instead of following the Austrian school. If you follow Austrian economics, you can fix the situation. If you go socialism, you can only make it worse.

It is tragic that you cannot see Venezuela's mistake, where the (de-facto) government has been doing that since at least 2014.

"Printing" money is the worst of taxes, and the most hurt are ironically the poor. The very reason people want bitcoin, is to make governments forever lose the ability to pick wrong decisions like this. There is zero justification for "printing" money, believe me, letting the banks go broke would have caused less problems, as you will see...

Indeed, in the 90ies Venezuela had half of its banks go bankrupt, but things recovered a couple of years later. Now Maduro in the 10ies threw the country to the spiral of hyperinflation and we have now are in the worst crisis of her history. Why did you not learn from others mistakes? What IDIOT advised Macri to print money? This must never be allowed occur, you declared your fiat the death sentence. Run for the hills (neighbor countries), while you still can... Now instead of some people losing all their money in the banks, the entire country has been condemned to misery.

I can't believe this is the same Argentina that had the corralito and that crisis of 2001, still making those mistakes...

I don't think like that for now. indeed in our teachings, later we will return to gold, but not for now. the superpower countries are as if they want to control the economic sector, especially with the presence of bitcoin. this differs from the background with Venezuela and Argentina

the bitcoin and many altcoins are anti-inflationary, I do not understand how good the unlimited printing of money generating inflation!

This is exactly why bitcoin was created in the first place. Good luck to any government who will try to convince the bitcoin team to create more bitcoin. 21 million max, several million already lost!

Printing new money can help in the short run, but in the long run, this will inevitably lead to a depreciation of money and inflation. Bitcoin can act as a store of value, on a par with, for example, precious metals, but can the broad masses of Argentines afford it?

yes, I also do not really understand why a country's government can manipulate and manipulate their own currency, isn't that bad for their economy?
although I don't really understand about economic problems because of printing too many currencies, but I'm sure if that happens then the economy of their country will not run well.

Printing excessive amounts of money without any economical progress is certainly putting the country's economy in peril. For a short time, this could have saved banks but the government would have to pay a hefty price since by that time, I'm sure their currency would be so undervalued and has been hit by inflation pretty hard. Bitcoin and crypto can only do so much, but in order to really help the people and the country as well in the long run, they should take it easy on QE or perhaps limit their budget in order to not get huge debts at all.

But then again, they won't listen, and their economic and financial advisers would have urged the QE to commence for sure.

I agree with you, maybe if more money is printed, it will damage the currency itself and surely the price will go down. maybe it's really a way to save the bank by using bitcin because of bitcoin digital, it doesn't require requirements and has no effect on its own currency. Now there are also many who are drowning in bitcoin and over time, more and more people are exploring bitcoin and there is no longer the term free money printing.

The question of affordability doesn't arise with Bitcoin. Because, unlike the fiat currencies, Bitcoin is infinitely divisible. If you want to go for investment in Bitcoin, then there is no minimum threshold on the amount that you can invest. You can go for $1,000 or $10,000. Or you can even go for $10.

They can do it but they don't have much influence like the superpowers, US and China.

As said, it can be a good short term solution for a country that experiences a crisis but it's no good for long term. Supply over demand and that's how you depreciate the money by printing a lot of it. Just take the example of Venezuela, they are in hyper inflation and too much supply of money made them nothing.  :-\

Wait, its not infinite, there are 8 decimals. Compare it with my country's money and you will see this is not trivial. 1 bolivar (VES) currently buys 3 satoshis. Soon we would need 2 for 1 satoshi, etc.

Of course Bitcoin could be soft-forked for extra decimals, but i think the need for that might be decades away, if ever.

When will these people understand that printing money is never the solution. This is not about third world country issues, USA literally printed about 800 billion dollars just to save couple of banks from their own greed that would have collapsed the whole economy. How could you think that would solve the issue once and for all ? It didn't and they never really put any regulations so that wouldn't happen again neither, they just told bankers "you saw what happened, you are wise enough to not repeat it" and just let them go.

Many smaller countries do this sort of thing as well but it never really works out for any of them and I really think that crypto since it can't be printed more and more is the only way we can get away from inflation. Anyone that has any money that bought bitcoin is now rich in Argentina and that shows the difference.

Printing money is indeed a solution to solve financial problems and the best part of it is that the average people pay the cost for it. Savings in cash or in money someone has in his bank account is slowly losing value even if the money isn't spent.
It isn't surprising for me that the riches get richer all the time and the poor people get poorer. Then, idiots like Trump arrive and fool the people again.

The past has told that it's possible to print large sums of money and "fix" financial crisis. If people don't say anything or don't stand up against it, the art of printing money can still take a very long time until it gets too excessive.
The best solution to be prepared is holding BTC because BTC is limited in supply.

Oh god, why they just think about the short term effect about this printing money ? Even if they make just for pay the debt, its still didn't work. For a while you maybe can free for financial problem and gets anything with a cheap but in other side slowly when the supply too much, it will decrease the value

It's sad what has happened to Argentina. At the start of the 20th century they used to be as wealthy as the Americans. In the last 100 years, the Americans got way richer and emerged as the main superpower while the Argentinians descended into one of the poorest places on earth. There are African and South-East Asian countries wealthier than Argentina now.

It's a massive warning about how things can deteriorate if you have bad government.

And Venezuela was the world's first oil producer in the 50ies, and remained one of the wealthiest countries of south America until the 80ies.

All it took was some politician to mess with the coin... If your government can dictate monetary policy, you are exposed to this.

Bitcoin separates coin from State, you want this, even if you think you don't because your fiat is looking great today...

Argentina is now looking at cryptocurrency as a way to bypass the US dollar:

https://cointelegraph.com/news/argentinas-dep-finance-minister-crypto-adoption-could-reduce-demand-for-us-dollar

The difference is that in the US they had capitalism and most of the Latin American nations drifted towards socialism. The problem with socialism is that although initially there will be a lot of positives (such as eradication of poverty and free healthcare), very soon the government will run out of money. In case of Venezuela, the petroleum revenue was not growing in line with the growth in the population. Also, the socialist government in Venezuela seems to be very corrupt, even when compared to the other socialist regimes (such as Cuba and DPRK).

No, in the case of Venezuela the State was increasing spending in parallel to the oil price, in addition to severe corruption. This had nothing to do with population growth (which btw, it has shrunk due to massive emigration). Worse than that, they got in huge debts betting that the oil would keep going up.., so not only were they spending more than the oil income, they were spending more than oil income PLUS loans...

Countries are made by people and most people are only concerned about the short term, it is sad but it is the truth, so if they see that the measures taken by the governments have a nice short term effect then the majority will support it even if it goes against their long term well being, this is why we cannot allow governments to spend more money than the taxes they get because if we allow it then it will happen what we are seeing now in which most countries of the world are so indebted that it is going to be impossible for them to pay their debts.

The idea that a country can just be printing more money to solve economic ailments can be so damaging on the long-term. Yes, it can be helping the tide for the main time but its side effects can be felt by the people as time goes by. And this solution is not actually the one that can fix everything and will even make things worse especially those economies already suffering from hyper-inflation. More and more disasters can be coming to countries who are adopting this mistake. Ironically, these countries are great critics of America, yet they are following the same blunder. Isn't it funny but sad?

Again, corruption was the main reason why the economy got destroyed. It was possible for them to survive, even with the low oil prices and socialism. But the corruption killed off everything. And I think this was the main difference between Maduro and Chavez. The latter was able to keep the corruption in check, while the former allowed it as he needed the loyalty from powerful figures.

Well it could also be done with the venezuela if there will be a massive buy out of the argentina currency. However, if there ain't then this is where the problem will be remain a problem.

For now, a good solution from the debt must be address. I do not think that printing money will solve the problem since inflation rate still experience. Why would not sell the assets to other countries like opening it for investments? I think many people.would invest and that will help also the problem's economy.

if a country's wealth is misused by politicians, the state is managed by amateurs or the wealth of a country flows out of the country, then it only takes time for the country to bankrupt and collapse as happened in Venezuela. Argentina should not make a policy by printing a lot of money, it will make their economy plummet

Did you know that Japanese central bank owns around 75% of Japanese stocks, their money come from the air and that bubble needs to burst, something similiar to Argentina. High inflations from Argentina or other countries will come to an end, because this system is unsustainable.
What do you think, which system will replace current fiat system?

You're off by several orders of magnitude, I think.  The amount of "free money" that gets created is staggering, and there doesn't seem to be any end in sight--or a solution.  The effects of quantitative easing combined with low interest rates have been great in the short term--the stock market certainly isn't complaining--but these economic crutches are going to break eventually.

Why wouldn't Argentina (or any other country for that matter) want to get in on the game?  They see what the US has done and what results they've gotten.  The problem is that the day of reckoning may well be something that their grand- or great-grandchildren are going to have to deal with.  That isn't fair to future generations, but that isn't something politicians seem to care about.

If every country starts to print money like they do then there won't be any country that will be poor , the whole economy background will be unstable , right now every country is allowed to print only a certain amount of money based on the economic relationship of that country with respect to dollars , more stronger the economy is more money could you print , unfortunately this rule is very essential of we don't want any complications .
This is somehow managing stuff in a good manner , the whole would is nothing but a part of democratic society * whole world is connected with strings with each other which is very essential for the functioning*

Absolutely. Seem like they failed to learn from US.

when a currency is being floated too much into the market, it lose value easily

The wonders of the so-called "Federal Reserve", as well as the legacy of fiat currencies (especially paper). Paper fiat allows for a huge economic boom at first, but it eventually loses value from overprinting, and eventually collapses. Even in Rome, with metal coins, they got into the habit of devaluing the money supply over time. Mike Maloney from goldsilver.com has an excellent series on that called The History of Money (I think), on Youtube. The Federal Reserve, as far as I know, is basically a bunch of global bankers, who print money and loan it to the government. Pretty crazy.

Have a great day,
The Cyberius team.

First and foremost the government does not have the authority to print money, it is controlled by the central banks and they decide on what to do and hope you understood why the banks got bailed while the government debts are still accumulating, these things are not transparent and that will lead to another financial meltdown in the future because of inflation and i am not sure what are the steps they are taking to counter that .

It's happening on a daily basis in the world's largest economies and soon it'll happen in non-reserve currency nations as well (see links about Argentina posted by colleagues above).

Japan came up with this idea in 2002, they called it quantitative easing (QE).

Here's the trick: if you print money and give it to the people, it generates inflation. Money becomes "cheap" and easy.

But if you print money for banks only and never let it reach the population, banks make sure the money's used to pump the stock markets while The People must work 9-5 to pay their bills.

Essentially we're living in a system where banks command everything, they print money for themselves. 99% of the people worldwide exist solely to keep the banks running.

Too bad the mass doesn't respond to fiat printing until it's too late to act. Investors are familiar with how the current financial system works and consistently outperform the rate of inflation. These people don't suffer.

I am glad that Bitcoin lowered the bar for the average joes because they get more interested in economics too. I got more interested in economics purely because of Bitcoin, otherwise I wouldn't do much better than the average person.

Bitcoin isn't only an anti inflation asset, but also a currency at the same time. You can spend your coins to benefit from the increase in purchasing power throughout the years. What other asset allows you to do that?

You are right but the United States can get away with it because the dollar is the unofficial currency of the world, so other countries have no other option but to accept it or avoid the dollar but that will create issues with other countries that accept the dollar, also quantitative easing was nothing more but an attempt by the United States to weaken its own currency to try to boost their exports and other countries had no option but to weaken their currency as well so they could protect their economy.