Bitcoin Forum

it is a joke that lots of guys here are preferring mtgox than supervision.
Could any one show an evidence that btc will be destroyed by supervision? I guess no.
The only way now to push a Higher price Is by the exchanges, and without stability and trustworthiness, no one could ever guarantee enough trading to keep a good price.
Why they are jokes? The real aims of people here are not making contributes to btc, but only earning more money, however they deny those regulations to keep exchanges transparent. Since they won't contribute btc evolving more to the real economy, it will just be a logic deadlock.
In fact, every exchange is mtgox. I never trust any moral discipline of an exchange. These are things only related to humanity, not capital. Such a disorder of exchangeS, as they will eventually keep a higher and higher gate to normal people, will kill tradings, the best thing in raising price of btc

yes, I support this idea, people want make money using btc, but they want their money to be safe as well, so appropriate regulations are needed!

This sounds like what the ancients said about their gold bars... "we want our money to be safe, lets give all of our gold to the government. They'll know what to do, they'll secure our wealth"... Fast foward a hundred or so years and, all of a sudden, the Gold Bars are no longer and we have been conned into swapping worthless IOU's in the place of actual money.

Regulation = systematic theft / fraud / pillaging of the people's wealth - and, with people like you in existence, they will do it again...

The thing is that every aspect of the bitcoin technology has to be decentralized. Traditional regulation and fiat exchanges doesn't offer that, which is why it is useless. There is nothing wrong with bitcoin, there was something wrong with MtGox.
What we need is decentralized exchanges that can exchange between different coins. That would add valuable resilience, robustness and security for everyone, regardless of skin color, gender, location or whatever.
We have to stop begging for some central entity to hold our hands.

We do not want Bitcoin to repeat (regulatory) mistakes of the past. We do not want Bitcoin to be like the "real" economy. We want it to be better, to be superior. Being not regulated is integral part of this superiority.
However, Bitcoin offers possibility of regulation via third parties and voluntary extensions of the protocol. But the most important thing is that it is voluntary and not enforceable. People will choose by adoption...

I have absolutely no clue what you are going on about. None of what you said makes sense.

My US dollars are worthless IOUs? How am I able to purchase things with them? I can BUY gold bars with them if I'd like. If they were worthless IOUs, they would be worthless, but they're not.

You seem to want some fantasy to exist right now that doesn't.

+1

regulation by others over individual store of wealth is immoral and unnecessary. The people will take care of business. yes Mt. Gox is a sad thing and honestly all those involved should be rounded up and hung. They are thieves and they deserve the retribution of those that they scammed.

haha, that's priceless!  ;D



Anyway, this all has been summed up long ago by Benjamin Franklin in his famous "They who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." quote. Still applies.

regularization = stole your money legally under the pretext of avoid have your money stolen illegally
for some people also:

regularization = I have someone to blame for my own mistakes

Most bitcoin exchanges profit from squeezing out margin traders and other methods of market manipulation.

With regulation, most of their profit is gone.

Government regulators are humans too and I sure as hell don't trust their moral discipline.


Tiringly predictable faulty assumption: regulation is necessary for stability and trustworthiness.  You probably believe in intelligent design too.


Take a good, hard look in the mirror.

I think we need to separate things here.
Basically, crocks are still crocks and tricksters are still tricksters.
The regulators should have what they need to go after these guys, and bitcoin doesn't really makes that any harder.
This applies to fiat->btc and btc->fiat exchanges.
Everything else should be based on decentralized protocols, as is tradition by now.

Have some regulated exchanges, have some without. Let them compete in a free market. You suggest the regulated exchange will be preferred, some would disagree.

EPIC Fail.

The OP must be completely unaware that MtGox was the first exchange to be regulated. MtGox was the first exchange to make you "verify" your ID with government docs - and even then the gov shut down their dwolla account.

Even so, the price of bitcoins has risen in 10-fold increments without gov regulations, namely because regulating bitcoin is impossible - making the OP's argument stupid as hell.

How about this:

Govt will regulate certain exchanges.

And Bitcoin will continue to operate outside of Government as well.

I basically see both happening.

How?

Decentralized exchanges.

Folks - you must not be up to date on the latest news.   Please listen to Lets Talk Bitcoin podcast daily if you can.

There are Decentralized exchanges on the way which are not run by any human being.

They will operate outside of regulation.   People will have the choice to use regulated exchanges, or decentralized ones, I assume.

And because the decentralized ones are decentralized, they can't be shut down.

I think both will exist side by side.

Even if Bitcoin gets fully regulated, it will still operate underground on some level.

-B-

some exchanges ARE legit, eg bitstamp and coinbase. They have preformed audits that prove they have the btc on hand.

OP seems to have strong opinions but little experience.

Trusting 'the authorities' to solve our problems with crypto exchanges won't work. We can see the failure of this approach in the endless scandals across "regulated markets" - Libor, precious metals, sub-prime, HFT etc.

Regulatory capture is the inevitable result of such an approach.

We must arrive at a cryptographic solution. Maths is a lot more trustworthy than masters.

This is the Idea many will disagree to , few will call it totally absurd and few will appreciate it..., I'm one of those who'll vote in favor , I hope other members will respect my POV even if they don't agree..! When we talk about some kind of regulation we are not talking about just govt involved we can look for some other solutions ..!

In favor of forced regulation, or voluntary? Your POV will not be respected if you force 2 people to follow a set of rules which they ordinarily wouldn't agree to.

When the debt bubble blows up...  Things are going to get interesting.

A poor regulatory framework is one of the big things holding the entire space back by preventing wonderful new startups, from building the much needed infrastructure.  People can say they don't want it and we should find different solutions but I don't see any solutions being proposed.  I just see a "lets do nothing and hope for the best" approach.  That's just not realistic if the digital currency space is ever going to see the masses jump on board.  

high price is bad, always

there is a lot that we can do to improve bitcoins and make it better without compromising on the key features of bitcoin protocol ..! voluntary regulation gets my vote here..! but this is not the only concern we are surrounded with as BB[Bitcoin Believers]

regulation is also bad, always

Regulation is why we are all subject to this draconian financial system... Same thing with the Oil industry... They use regulation to squash innovators who invented new means of powering cars i.e using water... We certainly don't need regulation at all...

I will vote yes for decentralization though, so that every part of the network can be truly peer-to-peer

You're waiting for the ETF?

Right because clean drinking water and safe food is highly overrated.  Who needs such things?   ::)

You have that entirely backwards.  Mandatory regulations inhibit startups and consequently retard competition.  They can be a boon in the short term, but are a curse in the long term.

Meanwhile, market forces are addressing the problem, to the extent that people want, as efficiently as possible, with no coercion.

Bitcoin can't grow without access to fiat and that legal access is through regulations.  So as much as anyone may not like it, it's going to happen regardless.  Actually, it's already happening so, I guess these debates are really just for the fun of it because no one here has a say in the matter. 

not always , may be in this case yes, but no regulation has its own down side too, ..! but we have to look for some solution, i mean if someone can come up  with an idea like bitcoin them some other can certainly come up with an strong Idea to make it better , there are already few good idea developed or in development to  make bitcoins better. .

Sorry, I didn't see what you were getting at at first.  But still, it's not the inevitable regulations that will make it easier for new Bitcoin startups, it's the uncertainly about exactly how the use of Bitcoin will be regulated in various jurisdictions that is hindering startups.  The tougher the regulations are, the more competition will be stifled.

I certainly don't argue with any of that and there is much uncertainty and no real clarity other than "guidelines", so that indeed is making it tough. We need something sensible, concrete and based around this new tech.  Trying to force it into obsolete frameworks, just isn't going to work and if they continue to try that, that too will hinder startups because very few can afford the current regulatory requirements.  

+1

I concede that for most governments, issuing clear, light regulation would benefit the Bitcoin economy more than trying to shoehorn Bitcoin into current regulatory frameworks.  All I'm arguing is the lighter, the better, with no mandatory regulations being best of all.

I can see a decentralized exchange doing coin2coin transfers, but are you saying we will see a decentralized exchange doing coin2fiat and fiat2coin (other than localbitcoins) as well?

Agreed.

Wsup with this horde of noobs out of nowhere attempting to derail Bitcoin, make it and us bow to government will and similar bullshits? GTFO, fucks!

Op has a point,although I don't think he's jumping to the right conclusion.  The best of all possible worlds is where we don't need political help to enforce anything we can get mathematics to enforce for us. 

The question is whether we can get mathematics to do the enforcement on the rules we actually want and whether the rules we can get mathematics to enforce are adequate to create a safe environment for doing business. 

I believe in the fairness of mathematics.  It's the same no matter who you are.  It doesn't cut deals, it doesn't break promises, and it never stops paying attention.  Whatever rules we need math is the best possible way to enforce them.

But the op is right that we need some additional kind of rules to prevent stuff like Gox.  I consider it a question of protocol and individual choices, not a question of law enforcement.

We need protocol to prevent exchanges from doing what Gox did.  And that's going to be more complicated than just digital cash.

If we can't figure out how to get math to do this enforcement,  then we will get stuck with police and politics,  or cryptocurrencies will fail completely.

So you would drink dirty water if it wasn't for the city supply? (which isn't very clean btw).

You sir, are obviously an idiot.

@OP

You talk about banks, but with the central bank gone, modern banks doesn't make much sense in my opinion.
If you mean "bank" as an entity that provides account, security and payment services for people and companies, those definitely needs to be "regulated", as in adhering to a set of rules.
Loans is an absurdity that our societies should not be based on, so that is out of the question as far as I am concerned.

Personally I think people and companies should educate them self to be their own bank, but I admit that may not work for everyone.

Regulation = men with guns telling you what to do.

I could just as easily tell you what to do without a gun, will that appease you?

Why do you like being told what to do? Are you a masochist?

Or is it that you think other people should be told what to do at the point of a gun?

So you like to play God with other people's lives?

Here is a suggestion. How about if you spend less time worrying about how other people run their lives and focus on living your own.

My water company is private. Basically well water filtered and sent to my home.

Food regulations prevent me from being able to drink healthy milk from a cow.

I guess these types of posts are what comes with more Bitcoin adoption by the masses.

Lol.  My favourites are those with degrees in economics.


*sigh*

Hmm...so you're saying regulations undermine the Satoshi Whitepaper?  Through regulation Bitcoin will somehow cease to prevent double spending?   ???  This sounds more like you've added your own ideology to the Whitepaper, one that not everyone seems to agree with.  And you sir, have no more right to Bitcoin than anyone else.  ::)

Regulation is always bad for everything all the time.  No good ever comes from regulations.  It just inhibits growth and prosperity.

At the point of a gun!

mtgox was regulated by fincen, and that did not help at all.
Regulation is bad especially when the rules are complex that not one understands, because they contradict each other and vary state to state and country to country, at the end you end up with an spider web of regulation that is very costly for businesses.
The treat of regulation is keeping Bitcoin from growing, in the long run with or without regulation the Bitcoin user base will  grow, but it will grow a lot quick without regulation.

As an example that regulation is bad
Something goes really wrong at MtGox does Fincen do anything, do they investigate, no, they do absolutely nothing even though Mtgox was under their Jurisdiction.
Flexcoin gets hacked, under existing laws theft is ilegal, the police mock the case, and refuse to investigate, only after public pressure but not under good will they decide to investigate at a later time therefore helping the thieves get away with theft by helping them gain time.

If existing laws are not helping, what makes you think more laws are going to help.

We need to educate the public, and have some more technical solutions to the problems.

One thing that needs to be done for the price to go up, not because of technical reason, but because of psychological  reasons is to change the unit, we should make the default wallet to have everything labeled in millibitcoins, for us it is the same, but for the average joe it is not, they see Bitcoin as being expensive, it reality it does not matter, but for the average Joe Bitcoin has to look affordable.

The other thing that needs to be done, and it is not a simple task, is to make the Bitcoin client be idiot proof specially under windows, android, and macs for the average joe to feel comfortable with Bitcoin.
Linux is fine.





 

Ebay started out in new territory of online auctions.

As they became more popular, they started getting more and more scammers.

They came up with the feedback system and other means of self regulating.

How many Congressional hearings have there been to regulate Ebay?

Government regulation brings people false confidence and gives them an excuse to be stupid.  Everyone assumes that if a business is regulated, it is trustworthy, and that is rarely the case.  They put false trust in the regulation, and fail to research and learn.  Then when they loose their money, they cry for something to be done!!  Look at the forum.  I have not been a member for long, but I can assume that many people got scammed.  People became much more cautious, they actually gain capacity to think!  When this happens the scammers die off and the people worthy of business thrive.

The fall of Mt Gox, in my opinion is a good thing.  The survivors deserve to survive because they are better.  The demand for bitcoin will remain and the strong businesses grow stronger, and the people learn from their mistakes.

These systems absolutely drive me crazy! However, demand will foster innovation and maybe we will see something better.  At least until then I have a choice to deal with them or not, and that is the most important thing.