Bitcoin Forum

"From a holistic perspective, Bitcoin is the first asset of its kind… ever. It is a decentralized, non-sovereign, deflationary, and uncensorable form of money confined by the rules of a computer protocol, one which was made by a pseudonymous developer. What’s more important in the context of this conversation, however, is that Bitcoin is the first consumer-available asset that has netted its early adopters over 100,000% (1,000x). In other words, BTC could be seen as a medium for the creation of wealth equality, not inequality.

You didn’t have to be a long-standing, recognized Silicon Valley entrepreneur, with a large amount of cash in your bank account to boot, to purchase BTC during its earliest days. All you needed to be was a savvy consumer with an eye for obscure yet revolutionary trends, the mental fortitude not to sell during downturns, and the ability to store coins safely.

But Bitcoin is the only asset that gave those with no accreditation, the majority of investors in America, the opportunity to see a parabolic growth in their wealth."

Source:  bitcoin-is-the-first-asset-that-enabled-investors-to-make-100000-gains  (https://www.newsbtc.com/2019/04/29/bitcoin-is-the-first-asset-that-enabled-investors-to-make-100000-gains/)

Your thought about this information.

"BTC could be seen as a medium for the creation of wealth equality, not inequality."

My thoughts on this is, it`s pretty irrelevant since it is not the early days any more and in a few more years it will all be mined out. So instead of people being able to go to nature to obtain bitcoin or gold, they have to work for it or more than less likely kill each other for it. What kind of wealth equality is that? Only early adopters have made money. The rest have to earn it or kill someone else to obtain it, sure there will be tx fees to collect, but that just means the rich get richer (people who can afford fields of asics). It will be a trickle down economics from there on out. We are setting up our kids to be slaves, for another mans money supply instead of their own. I look forward to the day I can earn my own money supply rather than another mans and be able to exchange it for food, water and shelter.  In essence trading government fiat or banker fiat (usd,cad,euro,yen) for bitcoin fiat, is not the solution. to equality.

refer to my post here about equal distribution and the creation of wealth in equality and see what happens in the end of bitcoin or gold.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5135915.0

 

Why do we not have a money supply in which everyone can obtain it at the same rate? like time? or have the same hashing power? that is equality.
Satoshi owns 1 million (if not more) of 21 million supply. how is the Equality? Granted, I have much respect for the man and think whoever creates the new system should kind of be rewarded for it. But he got to mine on a laptop and make that amount of coins, my beast of a computer will never solve a block. I even have ant miner that will never solve a block and in the future it will only get worse. sure there is a saying "first come first serve" and that is how it was with gold with the gold rush in the Yukon, But do we not see each other as equals? I`ll tell your right now you ain`t better than me, but I am not better than you.

I personally think you're wrong because it depends on how you define wealth inequality.

I hear "wealth inequality" defined as a large gap of net worth between two groups of people. This means that, for whatever reasons, there is one group with a lot of money and one group without a lot of money.

Bitcoin does not require a disproportionate amount of wealth to get involved, or at least it didn't in the past. Now it's pretty expensive to get one Bitcoin but you can always buy smaller portions of it. This is not what wealth inequality is. Bitcoin definitely encouraged wealth inequality by the massive volatility within the market. Investors who got in early often got a lot of money back, which contributed to wealth inequality.

At the same time, Bitcoin was an effective means of closing the wealth gap for a lot of investors in the early stages, as you say. Unfortunately, most people didn't get involved early on, and thus it didn't actually help close the wealth gap for most people. Everyone still has the opportunity to work for Bitcoin, invest in it, and make money from it, and it doesn't really encourage wealth gaps more than any other investment, but it's not completely immune to encouraging inequality. That's just how investments work.

Luckily not everyone is equal, and there is no way to effectively maintain any sort of equality system. So it makes the point moot.

wealth inequality = distribution inequality, when distribution wealth.  
Yes we actually do have a effective way to maintain this this system.

You know why the rich get richer because they take from the poor that get poorer. One mans gain, is another mans loss. Can something be both right and wrong? Take the world religions for a example (or anything), if Christianity is right can the Torah be right or vise versa? ok this is a bad example.

For example we can prove (e.g. by induction) that 1+2+3+⋯+n=n(n+1)2 for all positive integers n

But how can we be sure that no one will ever find a counter example?

The answer to "how can we be sure that no one will ever find a counter example?" is that we can prove (e.g. by induction) that 1+2+3+⋯+n=n(n+1)2
for all positive integers n.

"Counterexamples" of the kind whose existence is suggested by Gödel's incompleteness theorem are not in fact numbers in the sequence 1,2,3,…, that can be reached after some finite number of steps, like the number 1000. Rather they are members of systems of "numbers" that satisfy all of the axioms within some system that admits algorithmic proof-checking.


"Luckily not everyone is equal"
no we are not, but we could treat each other like it, thats why we pay tax for things like ODSP (people born handicap in my country, disability) I know some people still have the silver back gorilla alpha gene stuck in them and won`t understand, me big, me smash, me bigger boy, no touchie my wamen, even I stronger than me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz0avWZoqjg
yah everyone hates that douche bag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHVE8NCrqQo

Your solution is not effective. Running your own currency does not mean anything, the demand means everything. There will be people who have a personal token which will be substantially more valuable than another person's because they have more skills or whatever other valuable good you can think of. Your solution is the same as if everyone had their own fiat currency. Why would I care about your token when I want a McBuck so I can eat for the day. What happens when no-one wants a Mikecoin because it has no value to them, now everyone with a Mikecoin has lost time and value.

The rich also get richer because they make stuff that the poor want. If you don't want someone to be rich, don't buy their product. It's not like (most) show up to a bank at random and choose a bank account to take money from. They had an idea or service which they commoditized and people bought it. There is no "take" involved. It's passing on the blame to a "higher power" so that people don't feel like they have to take responsibility for their own actions.

There's also no tangible benefit for treating everyone as equal. It's an anomaly that has occurred for almost the first time in human history. We're basically living in a bubble for quality of life.

because you would know that I have a limited supply that is equal to yours at the start or if we go off time in generation off time (cough welfare cough). It is not the same as fiat as we know it because that is not equally distributed.

You get 1000 Yakamoto coins
I get 1000 Mike coins

We value each others token 1-1 because we have the same starting supply and can verify we each only have 1 supply.  

I waste my 1000 Mikecoins coins on your drugs lets say, so now you got 2000 Yakamoto coins. (now I have to work for 1 Yakamoto coin"or anyone elses who also is verified and has the same supply" to buy my food the next day) I Will have a demand for your coin if I want to eat or want to buy something nice.

We both got the same start. Now you can enterprise and get ahead.
When people start 100meter race, does one guy start 100ft in front of others because he showed up to the race early? NO THEY START THE RACE AT A FIXED TIME

and I agree with that bubble statement you left at the end, that bubble is going to burst soon unless our governments keep taking loans from banks, in which case when the power goes out the true inflation will show, the farmers are not going to be able to keep up. It used to be when you came to Canada you needed some to vouch for you and take care of you until you could get on your feet it was personal problem, Mr Trudeau has made it so now we give you a free life here if you pretend to be retarded or disabled and it is forced to be the tax payers problem.

Mr Trudeau just gave loblaws 10000`s of free freezers. A private cooperation, WHERE THE HECK MY FREEZER MAN!
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/powerandpolitics/tories-steamed-over-loblaws-freezer-cash-1.5091869
this is another reason we need that voting people to vote for you thing to stop.

The only point here is that bitcoin or any other cryptocurrency created an opportunity for people (professionals, rich, poor, as in everyone) to get involved in a venture where they can earn aside from their earnings in real-life.

Take me as an example, before I learned about crypto I used to work my ass out just to earn minimum wage, to pay for my bills and shelter, to feed my family. Bitcoin was able to give me an opportunity to earn a year worth of my salary in just a short span of time, and I think it's one of the best opportunity I had.

Now, you guys continue your discussion.  ;D (Eating popcorn while reading)
 :D

man it really grinds my gears that people think fair distribution is not a good idea, come over to my house for a pizza I order a pizza (even I pay), there is 10 of us we all want a slice, there is 10 slices, do I eat 2?  I mean I could but i`m not a a$$hole.

I have 10 apples(Macintosh), You have 10 apples(Empire). We both value each others apples the same because the time and effort to grow and pick them took the same, What is the problem?
You want a mac? I want a empire, let`s trade. Even if you had peaches, if we could agree that your 1 peach is worth 2 of my apples. I want a peach, you want 2 apples. Ok signed, signed, Transfer complete.

You want my car? I want 300 yakamoto supply. I know mr yakamoto will have to work for his money, not print it out unlimited like the free press we have today. 

Every useful things in this world that've pioneered in any specific fields are meant to be worthy and Bitcoin is one of it. Even though the competition(altcoins) is there and most of it are already well innovated compare to Bitcoin but still it's the most valuable contender because it's open for an inevitable change for the betterment of its usage.

Bitcoin and other cryptos created an Equal opportunity to be specific. I believe that's what OP was talking about with her statement "wealth equality".
Things kinda quickly went to a different direction  ;D

is bitcoin tangible? You can physically touch a bitcoin?

yah sorry, my thoughts get mixed up I have reverse ADHD

Wealth Inequality. Wealth refers to the total amount of assets of an individual or household. This may include financial assets, such as bonds and stocks, property and private pension rights. Wealth inequality therefore refers to the unequal distribution of assets in a group of people.

Now sure, I am not saying everyone be equal all the time, but use the race example.
When people start 100meter race, does one guy start 100ft in front of others because he showed up to the race early? NO THEY START THE RACE AT A FIXED TIME
We could have a fair start. We need to reset this economy anyways. I think we can all agree it is fucked and the longer we wait, the more weight we will have to carry. https://www.usdebtclock.org/ I demand you to pay that back in gold, great job FED!

that is the beauty of the systems I have proposed, all you people who don`t deserve what you got (or do) still get to keep what you have, your yachts your lambos your supreme sweaters. Meanwhile me a farmer who has fed millions and does not even own a house or a car, at least we can restart on a equal playing ground when it comes to future accumulation of wealth.

What would the difference be is everyone started with $1000 fiat? Your token system is fiat with extra steps. Why would Ronald McDonald with McToken want a YakamotoCoin? What value could a YakamotoCoin give to him? One McToken, even if just 1000 exist, would be worth our entire 1000 token balances in comparable value because there is a demand for McToken. There isn't one for MikeCoin or YakamotoCoin. If I wanted to pay the artist I just commissioned a painting from in YakamotoCoin, why would he just not refuse and ask for one-tenth of a McToken? You are adding steps to fiat which convolutes the entire process. Even if there's some central chain which converts these tokens as they're transferred, does that not have the same result as fiat?

You're missing the point in thinking that everyone can do every task with no specialization of labor. The farmer does not want a YakamotoCoin for food because I cannot give him a service he needs. He'll take a McToken though, because he can go buy a burger. Now replace all tokens with a single token, and now there's none of this convolution. I can give the farmer a dollar which he can use for any other service he needs, and he can take that dollar to go buy a burger from McDonalds. Your token system has absolutely no tangible benefit aside from acting like a time-based welfare system, or something along those lines.

Your 100m race concept does not apply. Races have set conditions. Life does not. There are no rules to life, there are law impositions from governing bodies. The entire point of life, aside from religious concepts, is to reproduce and continue your bloodline. You are biologically inclined to do so. The way that you get there does not matter. People with bloodlines who actually want to propagate will have advantages (start "100m ahead") because they come from a historically "better" family. Your family history literally gives you an advantage, that's often why the poor stay poor and the rich can stay comfortably where they are. You are also a different age than other people. Someone who's 50 years old has a very good chance of buying up all the assets available to the next generation because they worked. Age is an advantage in a peaceful economy.

As for the government giving companies free stuff, blame the government. People voted for him thinking it will fix the system, yet everyone knows politicians are full of sh!t. Anyone can stop being a part of the system if they want to, but no-one wants to stop because it's comfortable and change is scary.

Nope, people give it value. From a very brutal perspective, not everyone can have value because people can't find a reason to consider them as valuable. If you had to choose a doctor or a homeless man to save, who would you choose? Why? Most people would say the doctor because he can go save more peoples' lives. That's his value. If you were to treat them as equal, both would be lost because that's the equal thing to do. This is one example of how people are not considered equal.

----

This is fiat with extra steps, at absolute best. There is just so much wrong with this concept I'd have to break it down piece by piece and I don't know if I want to do that. You currently understand economics at the barter era, great. Now what if I don't want a peach, I want a banana? See the issue? What if you have three cars to trade me for my house, but I don't want three cars because I already have one? Each token is basically like a car or a house; if someone doesn't want that token, why would they accept your deal? Meanwhile, with fiat or any other token like XRP or whatever, there is a consistent medium. Individual tokens do not solve anything, they make life harder.

You work a low skill job while others take places with positions that other people consider valuable. Your commodity is a low-level product with no refinement or added value, which competes with many other farmers who only have a time investment into making the plants grow and ensuring the harvest is not damaged.

If you want to earn more money, my recommendation is to develop a business plan and find a way to refine your products in-house and sell it for a premium. That is the way you make more money, and anyone can do it.

No I don`t see the issue.

Well just like how the market works in real life (been going to the market since I was 3) You want a banana? let`s say I don`t have bananas well your talking to the wrong guy, go 3 stalls down he is there banana joe, oh I do have bananas ok lets barter.

Ok you don`t want to trade my 3 cars for your house, have a nice day, I hope you find someone that has what you are willing to trade your house for.
"why would they accept your deal?" because both ends agree to sign the contract that is how trading works.

If each token represents base wage is "24 tokens a day"  there is a consistent medium
 (e.g. if the base wage hourly rate is 1token/hour, then a commodity valued at 1token/hour in the new national currency would be equivalent to 1 hour).


I don`t want to earn monopoly money print out unlimited

A huge dishonesty in society is to accept paper money to define your purchasing power that is not a pure measurement. Manipulated by banks and governments using free press, not backed by something unchangeable such as gold or bitcoin or work/time/food/goods/services, but belief only.

I want to earn your money or my money or anyone's money not be forced to earn private family`s, but be able to earn any persons.

"You work a low skill job while others take places with positions that other people consider valuable" Lol yah food is not valuable, You have no clue how much skill farming takes. Come work in my field this summer I bet I pick 100 baskets to your 1. I bet you don`t even know how to use a tractor, or when to plant or how much water your plants will need, or how to set up a pump to have proper irrigation to your plants, or what direction to face your tress when planting, how deep to plant the seeds and trees, when to harvest, when to add spray, the amount of water you have to add your fertilizer, The ph of the soil, knowing what you can plant and where and when.

The problem is us local farmers, who provide fruit/veggies without gmo`s in it and have 50 acres cannot compete with globalist farms that feed you cancer who push us out of the game. Good luck eating fruit and veggies that actually have vitamins and nutrition in them in the future. They don`t care, spraying that round up makes them bigger crops. They are not in it for keeping people alive and living a honorable life, they are in it for GREED.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-28/roundup-is-losing-in-court-but-farms-aren-t-about-to-give-it-up

You know I am one of the very few non cooperate farmers left. I seen their fields, that is poison they feed you.
Guess what, when shit hits the fan, Don`t come to my farm! Go to the governments and corporate farmers! I am sure they will trade you and not shoot you on sight.  

also it is actually fiat with less steps, because instead of converting time into money, you just keep time as time and a token represents that time. It does not make sense to convert time into cents.

it does not make sense to work 8 hours a day and instead of getting 8 hours you get $80 YOU ARE ADDING A EXTRA STEP

Try and trade me your fiat or bitcoin when you need food in a power outage scenario (earthquake, meator, tidal wave,meteor, asteroid, nukes, solar flare, polar shift, tornadoes, hurricanes, aliens attack us, drought, global warming, flood, poision rain from these factory's, wild forest fires, I mean there is a million things that could mess it up real quick ask the dinosaurs)

You going to go out in the wild and hunt? that will last long. Ask Mr. Joe Rogan what would happen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3iVpSUriSg He says something along the lines "if everyone were to go hunting in the wild we would run out of food pretty quick"  I am not sure if it is in the clip but it is in his podcast with him somewhere. says like "he is the minority so he can do it"

what you going to be a graphics designer, database analyst, youtuber, streamer, bitcoin trader, politician, celebrity, tv show host, reporter, salesman, restroom attendant,  elevator operator, valey car parker, psychic, sign flipper, painter, santa clause, psychologist, pet psychologist, banker, etc, etc, etc, etc then  :-* nah I`m good I don`t need to trade.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Df3mhw6UEAAHTjn.jpg

I might take gold if I need to build myself a computer but I only need 1 computer :)

You`re missing the point in thinking that you can`t make 1 time token, mike token or yakamoto token equal to 1 hour of time and that all tokens that are created with the same supply from different people verified having one account could be that single token, it is named yakamoto coin while it is in your wallet or yakamoto time while it is in your wallet, it is named mikecoin when it is in my wallet or mike time. be we accept that each token no matter whos wallet it is in, is a universal time token.

Your token system has absolutely no tangible benefit aside from acting like a time-based welfare system, or something along those lines.

or stopping people from printing unlimited amounts of their coin
or making a fair starting for all or equal distribution over time to all (instead of having other people print it we all do)
or stopping the debt were going into
or yah creating universal basic income before we are out of jobs (population is going up, amount of jobs due to robots/tech is going down) (self driving cars in 10 years actually elon just realsed one 2 days ago, 3% of the work force)
or for creating pools of money though tx, where the people vote where the tx goes, so as a united nation we could go to space have funding for garbage, military, public pools-schools-tools, etc etc
or for creating digital passports
or for creating decentralized voting a real democracy, why vote someone to vote for you?
or for 1000 other reasons I can list why it is better.
You want tangible? hows hands on voting? 7.2 billion jobs just created, that never end!

damn it would of been nice to vote on Justin Trudeau giving that private company 12 million $ of my tax fee
and paying for all the immigrants coming to my country to leach off the welfare system
nice I get to pay for Abdars 15 wives and 500 kids! that have the IQ of a peanut and will only end up leaching themselves!
This is super sustainable! we are building new land for more farming land to support these people in imagination land! Not building a Jenga tower that is going to fall because we don`t reinforce the bottom.

Wealth equality you say! well, that also means it can help the third world country like Zimbabwe and India(ignoring the ban) to grow in their economic conditions. I have already seen many people trying to understand these digital coins but are getting scammed. maybe we should help them get to know what digital coins really are.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Bjoern_Bruecher/publication/321996838/figure/fig1/AS:574275157741568@1513929275722/World-Population-1800-2050-6.png

o nice it will be 9 billion jobs in 20 years.
" YES WE CAN "
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wuverFFZHmY

That would be amazing  :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strike_action
You know how teachers go on strike, government shuts down and goes on strike, or other unions
http://cafta.org/agri-food-exports/
Imagine the farmers go on strike, it would not last very long, I mean u guys  ;)

I don`t want to earn money, I want to earn fair money.

Maybe in the earlier days it could've got developed from a simple computer protocol. While one thing come to existence it won't easily preferred by the user community. One who made a buy earlier believing in it have turned wealthy. While we now examine the affordability it is possible with the one who bought in the early days as well the one with huge funds. In simple terms it served as a wealth generator and further the same got to be way for inequality.

That's my point and many of these contributors are wagering around the initial point of my post.  ;D

Not even Satoshi knew Bitcoin was going to be this big from inception let alone those who bought it at launch. It was a fun experiment for them back then. I believe the phenomenal that attracted more interest to Bitcoin as time went by was the blockchain tech it has and a lot of people felt they could leverage on that for other benefits. This has remained truthful till date in accounting and economics. My point is that Bitcoin wasn't worthy or useful from the beginning. Otherwise, the 10,000btc for pizza wouldn't have happened.

The opinion of the OP could have been true during the early years of bitcoin, I mean between 2008 and 2010. But currently, bitcoin creates wealth inequality. It is mainly those who have big money bags that can make huge and profitable investment with bitcoin. These are also the same category of people who dictates the pace of the market or the direction it swings.

Yes, bitcoin has made the people who the society condemned to be slave to financial instability millionaires. The returns that has come to bitcoin earliest investors and even later investors is something the current banking system can never ever achieve from generation to generation. Bitcoin is freedom.

Indeed, Possibly it created wealth equally in its earlier stage but will not agree on that now, haven adopted  by many investors, Bitcoin has been know and be use for many purposes that, is unable to create equal wealth. The rich can buy 20 to 100 Bitcoin why the poor cannot, so, many point still remains that, Bitcoin now doestn't create wealth equally.

I think that with Bitcoin is the same as with anything else that has material value. Bitcoin users are not equal and not all can afford the same amount because everyone has different financial potential. So I couldn't agree that Bitcoin doesn't create wealth inequality. Similar like with fiat not everyone has equal amount of funds.

I think you meant equality of opportunity, cryptocurrencies and dapps create lots of opportunities for those who can't have an access to different markets for many reasons. It is but partly because of lack of regulation.

Some has described about the opportunities people get through bitcoin. Here there is equality, and one who got skills can move forward easily. Apart from this we cannot find bitcoin take away inequality, because everyone runs for money and here it is no more an exception. Same as fiat one who has lot of fund afford it and earn good while the lower level of people can afford less.

It takes a matured mind to appreciate how bitcoin works.  It would also be a mistake on the part of anyone to assume that bitcoin can create equal wealth in the world. The world has never been fair even before the introduction of the current monetary system.

Indeed. I would pretty much prefer the term "opportunity". These cryptocurrencies allowed different kinds of people, whether employed or not, student or not, young and old, to have a legitimate source of income. (I called it legit because of the accusations from some people that bitcoin or other crypto is a scam). They could just be sitting somewhere but still able to earn money through our beloved cryptos. It only needs enough knowledge and know-how in order to be engaged here. The world was never fair. And life itself is not fair as well. Rich people gets richer; poor people gets poorer. But despite that, the decentralized bitcoin and its successors made those less fortunate have a way of earning. Though not that big, the important thing is they have a means.

As clearly stated, Bitcoin doesn't create wealth inequality and not equality of opportunity. Lets look back to the early days of Bitcoin; where it was airdropped, wither "A" or "B" holds 20 of it or 0 of it, but was airdropped equally. As many that applied to the airdrop, they equally received the same Coins back then.

 And in few years; those without clear knowledge of Bitcoin potentials; misused their coins while others who believe on it potentials got the wealth equally  ;D

Never a mistake if one argue what is right. The price of Bitcoin has started rising and many are still waiting until it get down to $1000 before they secure their portion but that, will never going to happen, so, such an individual if he/she can't buy it later will accuse Bitcoin of not creating wealth equally. Buy Bitcoin now and have your chances secure.

If (A) and (B) bought $2000 worth of Bitcoin and i buy the same,then sell out the same time means: (A)  $2000 * 1000% and (B) $2000 * 1000%, simply means equal wealth if hold till bull run.

That is why we need to keep learning about cryptocurrency especially about bitcoin because that will help to gain more information and of course, a way of making money. I am sure when we can gain more information, that means we have another option to get to the right way to the wealth. But there is no instant way to reach wealthy, and we need to do hard work to reach the goals.