Bitcoin Forum

It was all over the news yesterday in Spain, with images of crypto-ATMs being confiscated by the police force, wheeled out of a store that sold IT equipment. The two ATMs that were decommissioned where the stars, leaving the eight detained members of the crime gang in as secondary actors in the show.

Europol worked alongside Spanish Guardia Civil for months to uncover the money laundering scheme, which seemed to be provided as a service to other criminal groups. The estimate is of around 100K Euros being washed each day. In went the cash into the ATM, switched to BTC, and back to FIAT in Colombia. The ATMs were as legal as you can get now, belonging to a sort of franquise. It appears they used a bunch of fake ID cards to perform the operations, making sure no single TX was over the radar limit.

The police also decommissioned a bunch of crypto wallets, whose TXs add up to an equivalent of 9M Euros in a three month period. Pretty over the top it they wanted to stay under the radar.

Not the ideal news for BTC ATMs. These two ATMs now have the arguable honour of being the first ATMs to be detained in Europe (so as to say …).

See Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f628fNzFkk

Damn. This kind of news would discourage other companies from developing Bitcoin ATMs in the future since the government will be looking at these ATMs even more closely due to these scams.

The ATM makers need to come up with better security measures to make sure these scams reduce in number in the future.

Don't most bitcoin ATMs have cameras in them? They could probably check the timestamps of the transactions and look at the certain time frames in the video recording to determine who's behind the laundering.

Damn. That's definitely a lot of profit for the bitcoin ATM provider.

Good!
ATMs are the one thing I could live without, them and their fees.



I bet my money on the operator knowing about the money laundering.
Let's be serious, who is laundering money at a 7% fee, tx fee, again BTC > fiat fee.

At this cost, it's better to set actually pay taxes :P (yeah, probably its drug money but still...)


Unfortunately for them, they are late:
https://www.ccn.com/russian-police-seize-22-cryptocurrency-atms-under-central-bank-request

I'll still be developing my ATM software and back-end, doubt many on here will be interested in it though.

 
Normally, Spanish ATMs impose a regular limit of 1K Euros per operation, and by law do not require using an ID unless you are going to convert over 2,5K Euros. I figure (the sources I’ve seen and read did not specify) that they combines smaller TXs, but also some larger TXs via the usage of fake IDs; all in order to make their daily 100K Euro quota.

The IT shop reminded me of one of those phone parlours, where a lot of shady stuff goes on behind the scenes. I guess that at some point they will rise the requirements to install one of these machines, or lower the value that is transactionable in “b rated” type of commerce.

That’s introduces another debate: Is Russia considered Europe ? (total/partial)

That's also my guess. Probably not that the operator is in on the laundering itself, but the operator probably just chose to ignore what's happening due to the huge amounts of money being made.

That makes sense. But still though, they could get information(though could be slightly inaccurate) from the camera recordings and the timestamps itself. Narrowing down the potential suspects are still a step forward.

If one is already profiting a huge sum of amount from an unknown patron/benefactor, it does not matter what that entity does or where the funds come from as long as the operator is making moolah. I don't think the operator knows of the shady activity, but rather choose to not know about it.

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Puts bitcoin ATMs in quite a bad light. This might tighten already existing regulations and prerequisites before setting up a bitcoin ATM. It'll be harder to procure documents and get passed now knowing that such things can be done in a large scale, that's why I've been questioning for quite some time now if bitcoin ATMs are really *that* important in today's society with only a handful really involved in cryptocurrencies at this day and age.

These illegal transactions are ruining the name of Bitcoin in other countries. Sometimes, controversies are the reasons why most countries are afraid to adopt it as a currency.
Crypto ATM is what we are all aiming for but due to these crimes, I don't think it would be easy for it to be implemented.

Weren't there limit to each withdrawals to such ATMs?

Banks can always find ways to avoid all these laundering, even if they used fake IDs they can't just withdraw that much like 9M Euros in 3 months, that would be suspicious so if they already find it out the first month, it would have been avoided.

Well thats a blown investment opportunity...

The owner of that ATM, my god! 100k daily volume?

I've looked into the Bitcoin ATM's and if Spain is similar to the States, then I'm sure those Fees aren't super cheap like a traditional atm.

Some ATM's charge 10-15% the transaction. On a low end, that owner was pulling in north of $10k daily just from fees!

Man, I need to get into that bitcoin ATM buisness and set a few up on the Mexico boarder  ;D


Na, watch some movies. Depending on how much your looking to Wash - these guys will pay upwards of 20-30%.
You have to figure that 100% of the money is Dirty and is basically worthless unless washed.

Getting in at 7% sounds like a killer deal for these Narco guys. No-wonder they were putting in millions

Such news are actually bummers for the crypto community. No matter how clean we want to stay, no matter how diligently we pay our taxes, there will be always a group of criminals making use of cryptos to run their operations. These things are actually bringing down the reputation of cryptos big time, especially when it comes to the front page of a well known newspaper.

I feel real terribly sad when cryptos are linked to the terrorist attacks and crime gangs because all our good efforts instantly goes for a toss!

Google tells me they are in Europe, the books say the same.....my heart tells me they are no far away enough :P, but that's another story.


I was talking mostly from the criminal side of view because paying maybe 10-15% in fee is like the mob paying protection money.
Still betting that the whole ATM business was actually run by the same guys that were laundering money.
Just as the mafia is running casinos.

It makes no sense otherwise.


@DdmrDdmr do you have some info or pics of those ATMs ? I've only managed to get this one and can't make anything out of it probably it's not even from the event...
I'm curious about the model if it's one with active cameras or just surveillance one.
https://i.imgur.com/ZesBbZY.jpg



This is exactly what I'm not going to do!
Forget movies, those are not free money, they might be dirty money but they still have costs behind them, you have to pay people for the laundering, you have to take the profit after all the guys in the chain and the merchandise  (whatever that might be) has been paid for.

So it's not 10-20% out of 100 euros, and you end up with 80-90
It's more like 10-20% out of 100 euros from which you also have to pay 30-40, so it's coming down to 40-60.

The video where the image you post came from can be seen here: https://www.elperiodico.com/es/sociedad/20190508/cajeros-automaticos-bitcoin-7443430
A direct link to Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0f628fNzFkk

For some weird reason, the image blurs-out the brand of the ATMs, and in the process half of the ATM itself (I guess they do that while not proven guilty  :)).

The white ATM seems to have a camera or something like it in the top enter of the screen. I can’t make it out on the black ATM, but there is a circle on your image on the top of the screen thar resembles a cam.

Edit:

- The left hand side ATM may have a QR reader/cam. I found their website: https://www.btcfacil.com/es/atme01 (costs 10K + VAT), and this video shows a cam image on the ATM's screen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=39&v=lPQiyv-HpjU -> around 32 seconds into the video).

- The right hand side ATM is this model: https://coinatmradar.com/manufacturer/63/bitnovo-bitcoin-atm-producer/ It also has a cam.

Imagine the case where a drug dealer converts the dirty money to potatoes chips and send to Colombia. Will the potatoes chips reputation damaged? No. Replace it with gold, will it have a damaged reputation? No.

Why when it's about Bitcoin the mass population feels the need to label it as criminal paradise currency.

9 million euros in 3 months through 2 atms? that'll never draw any attention! ::)


all they'll have is pictures. they already have pictures from the fake IDs. in most cases, without additional links to their identity, this isn't gonna be enough to conclusively identify anyone.

Well, because it is. I can sell heroin, shove 100k into Bitcoin ATM's and send it anywhere instantly. Can't do that with gold, or anything else really.

If that is happening in many countries, I guess that the adoption of bitcoin will not run smoothly because the government will have a bad opinion about bitcoin and the ATM.
The ATM will be used to make an illegal transaction without checking the transaction in the camera that is available in the ATM.
I think now people already thinking to invest in bitcoin especially after they read on that news, but I still hope that they still believe that bitcoin is not just for the illegal things, but bitcoin can also be used for good things.

Their limit is too huge where they can withdraw up to £2500. I think they planned it well and did it for a short time. Crypto laundering and hacking is getting worse these days and I just hope that it won't affect the reputation of Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies.

Wait, they had two ATMs in the same location side by side?
What the f word.

If this ain't shady I don't know what could be called shady!
You have 12 ATMs in the entire city (according to the map) and two of them are installed side by side in this shop?

What do they sell in that shop to have that much customer traffic, marijuana?  ;D ;D ;D

IT related stuff. Looking at the video, the store name indicates that it is (also) a Consulting and Financial Services corporation. Funny thing is that, looking at their website, you can download from it the "Guía Anti-Money Laundering” … I guess they forgot the "anti" part … the irony …

You can sell heroin, inject the money to buy gold (no gold ATM yeah but it's not the point) not different. So?
What people do with Bitcoin is something else. Otherwise, we would need to agree to say that the dollar is also a criminal paradise currency.
Before Bitcoin was alive what were they using do you think? Gold, big banknotes

You can't buy gold at a machine and be untracable, then send the gold anywhere in the world instantly.

Bitcoin is disruptive. Bitcoin allows people to bypass whatever it is that governments and banks subjects them to, and this might be a scary thought for those who always relied on governments and banks. Governments are our friends, right? And banks do everything to protect our money, right?

If you also add the anti Bitcoin propaganda, specifically meant to brainwash the average person, it's clear why people still see it as a criminal currency. Propaganda is a powerful tool that governments very frequently use to manipulate their own people. Don't underestimate this.

It's going to be a long process before people really figure out who the bad actors are. ;)

Right that's why I wrote "no gold ATM yeah but it's not the point"
It's even easier to buy gold and to be untraceable compared to Bitcoin. You can't transfer instantly yes but it's not a problem for them, they are not looking for a Paypal alternative

I always thought they are in both. Most of Russia is in Asia but their Capital is in Europe so there's no straight answer to that. The best one would be they are located on the Eurasian continent and and lie partially in Asia and Europe. It's officially called a transcontinental country.

I see nothing bad for Bitcoin in this news. They were using a number of things to launder money like credit cards, fake IDs and sim cards. They also had bank accounts. Let's not blame Bitcoin for what people are doing with it.

Gold and cash are just as decentralized as Bitcoin, but offer way more privacy because there is no way you can track transactions conducted by criminals who exchange these assets somewhere outside in a parking lot.

I can buy gold without an ID from local jewelry or pawn stores (of course not an infinite amount), while I can't buy Bitcoin as easily. The only way to buy Bitcoin locally is to search for sellers around you that are trusted enough.

People credit Bitcoin too much for its usefulness and privacy that it offers to criminals, while Bitcoin in reality is a horrible tool for that. If people understood how Bitcoin worked they would know that as well.

That was exactly my point. But since the media prefer to publish articles on this kind of subject, people only remember that. On top of that, how many researches have been published to finally say that the percentage of BTC transactions related to illegal activities is very low?

just for the drug industry

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_drug_trade

Interesting news, indeed! Imagine they are detaining the ATM machines as if criminals in their own rights. Okay, am sure the machines are processed as big evidence of the mayhem and they also contained necessary information that can be used in filing cases against the operators of the money laundering operation. This can create a black eye against Bitcoin temporarily but this should be serving as a reminder to all of us not to use this new platform and opportunity for illegal purposes.

The authorities are effectively saying that in case the drug dealers want to launder their dirty money, then they should do that through the big banks (just like the HSBC, which helped the Mexican drug mafias to deal with their revenues). Now I don't have any stats to support my claim, but I think that the turnover at these ATMs is too small to be used by drug kingpins. Some of the low ranking street dealers may be making use of these facilities to launder their stuff.

This and it is worth to mention, that Bitcoin is not the best option for criminals, because LE is learning fast how to trace them (even when they have been mixed). It is not easy to cash out or shop with illicit Bitcoins these days.

@AGD
Yes, that's why we have a saying in my country. Go sweep at your house before looking at others
By the way, the last time I asked myself a question
Almost all banknotes in circulation contain drugs. (Contaminated currency (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contaminated_currency)) Compared to Bitcoin which has a limit supply, in 50 years all bitcoins will be contaminated