Bitcoin Forum

Given that the national central banks are subordinated to the ECB, 2 Italians MPs asked the ECB on the legal status of gold reserves in the euro area states. Guess what? The ECB confirmed its authority!


So Italy may be the owner but they can't do whatever they want with!

Considering how things are set in the EU, such rules should not surprise us too much. To my knowledge some 70% of all decisions are being voted in the European Parliament, which to some extent makes sense for the big states, but not for those small countries with a small number of representatives.

To me personally makes no sense that I need to ask you what will I do with my money, but in this case with gold ECB has set a protective mechanism for some purpose.

Italy is the third country in the world by reserves of gold, but from what I read they do not want to sell gold to repay the debts which is the largest in Europe (€2300 billion in 2017). Italy has another problem related to gold, it is not clear who is the owner of gold - Bank of Italy or state.

More info :

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-gold-borghi/italy-government-wont-sell-a-gram-of-gold-reserves-league-lawmaker-idUSKCN1Q20Q1
https://news.goldcore.com/ie/gold-blog/italian-debt-financial-disaster/

It's funny and a shame at the same time that a country boastfully owns gold for its reserves, only to know in the end that they don't fully have the rights to spend it or use it on any things they like or wish to since they need to ask permission first for their own property. I wonder what would be the reaction of other countries if they found out about this. To be fair though, everyone under the European Central Bank would have the same treatment, or would have the same process if they'd like to use that gold in reserves (CMIIW, thank you) so Italy is not alone on this ordeal.

I don't see any surprising element in that! Because that's how the European union is structured and every national bank is affiliated with ECB who is the whole and sole owner of the currency in Eurozone! And yes, I clap for the first comment you posted which nicely shows the entire scenario by adding a crypto perspective to it.

That's one of the pain points for UK and that's whay they wanted to leave Euro zone to maintain control on their own wealth and didn't want to use that wealth to bail out poorer countries.

The situation with the Italian gold reserves really looks humiliating for Italy. At such moments, I understand how valuable Bitcoin is and I realize that it carries the freedom for all of us to manage our money ourselves "without the approval of the bank" and other regulators.

The situation in Venezuela with the UK refusing to repatriate Venezuelan gold also highlights the need for nations to have full control over their money. Bitcoin has advantages over gold in that it does not require physical storage and can be possessed by nations very easily. The key is having multiple highly-trusted people involved with strict oversight. I am not sure how this will be managed, but I imagine it will be similar to how nations manage nuclear codes or military secrets.

It's disappointing to know that gold in the said country is manipulated and that you have to comply and needs approval from the government before it works. That's the reason why we have to be grateful that despite both crypto and gold, we're still having financial freedom at some point.

I suggest that ECB is just trying to prevent capital outflow. As OP already mentioned this approval would only be needed then you make a transaction above certain amount. So you should understand that in someone is willing to send a hundred millions abroad then this process would never be easy and no matter if you are using fiat, gold or crypto. All those transactions are already under heavy control of the government.

I wonder why they have to take control of gold if it's something that we could invest in all our lives. If they could manipulate gold, how would investors take a chance to earn a good profit through it? I agree with you. We're still lucky to have cryptocurrency as an investment.

Its one of the biggest prices to pay for being part of the European Union, the EU knowing that one country's action can trigger a ripple effect within Europe can have this kind of power in order to prevent further damage. If Italy has move their gold independently without their authority various things could happen and other countries part of the EU might not like it. I do feel that we are just taking the words too literally here and Italy might have some control with their own gold in some given situations.

I guess, the reason why Italy will not be able to control their gold reserves is that, just like all of the countries there are a lot of securities and regulations the people need to use as their advantages. Even though they have a bunch of golds, it doesn't mean that they can easily trade it with another countries or buyers. Everything must undergo to a due process.

In the European Union, they actually do their best to control anything or regulate each of the countries. The is the point where even a nation will not be able to control their own assets and reserves.

UK has never been part of the eurozone, they kept their national currency and it is undoubtedly a good move, especially in case of Brexit. You need to know that the eurozone and the European Union are not the same. EU is consists of 28 member states, and eurozone of 19 member states. If some country enter eurozone it means that they have no control over their monetary and fiscal policy, which ultimately means that there is no longer printing money and that country is becomes dependent on ECB.

Italy is part of EU and eurozone, and that means that they are not masters of their own destiny. Role of ECB in Italy’s national debt is significant over the years, they make some very bad decision (for Italy) in order to punish political euroskeptics in that country. This is how things works when some country renounces its sovereignty and national currency.

One day most of the average joes using banks as custodian for their Gold will figure out the exact same thing.

Bitcoin gets rid of the dependence on these custodians, but people as always need to find out the hard way why Bitcoin is such a powerful tool. Losing money has always been the most effective way to get people to understand how toxic banks and governments are. Better late than never I guess. ::)

It's only a matter of time before governments will allocate a portion of their freshly printed fake money to Bitcoin in order to for once actually own sound and useful money.

The euro has since its creations been a major problem for the countries in the south of Europe and been a major benefactor for Germany and some of the other northern EU countries. 
Italia and some of the other EU countries with most dept needs to leave the euro and go back to their own currency so they can start paying back their own debt.
ECB is now on a monthly basis buying debt in every EU country to keep the countries like Italy alive

What is puzzling about the subject is how the banking system draws its strength from people forgetting linking money with gold and then dump society into debt in order to get a better life.
Remember to add a link to the source, I searched on Google and found the data outdated.
I thought there was a link between this news and the economic tensions between China/US and the return of alliances.

Germany was able to repatriate the gold (or at least a large part of it) to its country. The country may not be a big holder like Italy but it is a major country of the EU.

So ok guys, let's compare. Why then do we complain about banks that impose these same types of limits? We can also argue that it is to avoid the outflow, you will not be in debt, your account will be in good standing, money laundering, <insert any excuse>, etc. It is exactly the same principle not to be able to fully control your funds. Ah no, not your funds, the bank.

Bank of Italy is not the same with the State? I mean this banks is not owned by the Government?

So there will be a chance for bitcoin to be accepted in Italy if the government realize that.
But still, it is difficult if it's related to the regulations in that country because that will need a long time before they will approve of using bitcoin in their country.
But that doesn't make sense if they cannot control and use their own asset and reserves because how they can run their economy if they cannot do that.

There is nothing surprising here. All 28 states that are part of the European Union, have combined their economic resources and on the basis of this have created their money - the euro. Therefore, of course, they should have some restrictions on disposing of their gold and foreign exchange reserves. This is necessary in order for the euro to be provided with both gold and other material values ​​and does not lose its value.

The European Central Bank is doing all it can to stop the Euro from losing its value but it is not working, today the ZEW climate index which measures the business climate in Germany disappointed compared to previous readings and this adds to the Euro losing value to the dollar which is the big rival.

Well, that's what you get when you decide to give up the sovereignty of your nation, and/or to put your assets into the hands of someone else, especially a central bank, and especially at that scale.

Have a good day,
The Cyberius team.

The Brexit has been very painful for the UK and there is no clear picture of how this can eventually affect their economy and that of the Eurozone. The decision to leave was based on the fact that it is losing its pivotal sovereignty which is at the heart and soul of a country. When you don't have a control with something you thought you own...the joke can be on you. And this is what Italy is finding out. As part of the European Union, they are now subordinates or under the people who are unelected based in Brussels.  

A day will come when countries realize that most of the Gold in this world are not secured in vaults, but rather that the Gold has been sold to fund wars and preventing global economic collapse.  ::)  It is already rumoured that the supposed large Gold reserves in Fort Knox is gone! <Audits are not done and the US are very secretive about the Gold quantities that are supposed to be in that vault.>  ::)

Gold prices are also controlled by large cartels, so a few super rich people or organizations are manipulating the value of Gold owners wealth.  ;)

As you can see Italy has a little different way how gold is managed, their central bank is key player when it comes to gold.

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It is very interesting how this story is become actual in the political and public life of Italy. The government allegedly had the intention to sell part of gold reserves in order to prevent increase in value added tax, but problem is in who is control gold, and where this gold really is.


This is not just a question of the sale of part of the gold reserves, but also where the gold really is. A really comic situation, you have something very valuable, you need money and you can not sell it because some politicians in the other country does not agree with that.

https://www.bullionstar.com/blogs/ronan-manly/italys-gold-enters-the-political-fray-but-who-really-owns-it/

Ah, you see the point now. Luckily there are a few countries in the EU still able to make whatever they want roughly speaking. Germany and France are 2 examples but there are surely some others. The main reason is that both countries have a law above the ECB and EU regulations. For how long no idea, but nowadays we're ruled by the EU and not our own country.

I know for a fact that there are several countries recently starting to worry about their gold/gold reserve. Some purchase in mass (Russia and China) and some either repatriate to be safe (Germany) or start to ask 'my gold is still here?". Remember me a story (don't know if it's true, I watched it in a documentary à la Alex Jones). The Queen of England had requested an audit concerning the gold of the Bank of England. It was so denied that she decided to go herself to The US. and check it out.

No, it is not funny in that way.
The thing is that Italy used previously the gold just as we here use altcoins for collateral and now they want to sell it but not for paying their debts, just to cover expenses.

People are acting like what, how is this possible but they tend to forget that those rules were put in place a long time ago, the minimum reserve requirements, the debt to gdp ration, limits to expenses vs budget, a lot of those were known for years and countries agreed to those when they joined the EU.

They didn't care about it first because they weren't in trouble.
Now they act like somebody who has bought a phone with a one year warranty that broke one month after it was over, cursing and enranged why he has no two years warranty like the most expensive ones :P

Well, in case of the EU it's understandable. Italy benefits from the stability of Euro, which is regulated by the EU. If separate countries had the right to do whatever they want with their gold, it could seriously complicate things with keeping the prices and money value under control, and it would be a threat not only to that country, but to all others that use the same currency.
If Italy doesn't like it, it can always go for Itexit :P
With crypto we indeed have financial freedom, but it also has associated risks. Extreme volatility, for instance, truly makes it difficult to use cryptos as money.

The parallel between the gold reserves of the central banks of European countries and cryptocurrencies is well drawn. It is really absurd when the private key of your wallet lies with a stranger and without his permission you cannot manage your funds. Apparently, therefore, cryptocurrencies so quickly conquer the world.

That is basically renting someones golds. That is literally the type of work you do when you invest your money into a bank and get interest in return, you give your money to the bank, they guarantee you a return and you just leave it that them. Afterwards banks can do whatever they want with that money, they can loan to someone else, they can invest into stocks they can do whatever they want.

Same goes for insurance companies too, you give them money so you get insured but in the end they have the money so as long as you do not need insurance for something they can use it however they want. This is not that much of a big deal, it happens all the time in regular peoples lives like the ones I mentioned so a country doing the same is just fine in my own opinion.

So you are telling me it's no different from private individuals "owning" gold but cannot simply withdraw it whenever they want?  ;D

Recently we keep hearing about countries fretting about their gold reserves. You think they're preparing for a possibility of the gold standard returning?


Maybe the situation is like with the Federal Reserve in the US?


All those long lines at the bank when Greece declared bankruptcy should have been a wake up call to people living in the EU. We only own the money that we have access to. Banks can always cut your access to your money that they are "keeping".

I do not see anything unusual. Italy is a member of the European Union, in which there are common economic interests and obligations, and they follow from the fact that they use the single currency - the euro. It would be the opposite, surprising if Italy used the euro and, moreover, also enjoyed the full amount of its gold and currency reserves. Part of the gold reserves of each country - a member of the European Union must reserve under the coverage of the euro. This is quite logical.

What's the point of holding any gold reserve at all then?

If your central bank needs the gold reserve to maintain monetary policy in some sort of extreme black swan market event, if you still need the approval of ECB, wouldn't it be a bit redundant given that there is a risk that there may be delays as to approving the gold transaction/or being entirely rejected?

Again, sovereignty is extremely important when it comes to reserves in my opinion. That's a part of the reason why I believe BTC used in nation's reserves will be more common in the future, since you simply don't need to outsource the storage to another country.

Nations like Italy now under the auspices of the EU have lost their own sovereignty when they joined the economic block thinking that they would be benefited by such a big cluster of nations. Of course, they get to participate in the opening of new markets for their products and services but now we know the many sacrifices required of these countries. At the end, only Germany would bloom with the EU project. Let's hope that Italy will realize soon of the folly of being a part of this block.

The Italian central bank (and every central bank of an EU country that had accepted the euro as a national currency) had delegated a part of it's authority to the European Central bank.
I don't see anything surprising that the ECB has power over the Italian banks.

A number of countries are storing their gold reserves in the United States. For example, half of the German gold reserves (approx. 1700 tonnes) are stored in the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while another 20% or so is located in London. Last year Turkey pulled out 220 tonnes of gold reserves from the United States. I don't know how much is remaining. 

So what this really means is that they implemented and approved laws, and apparently nobody until now knew that meant giving more control power to ECB?

It would be stupid to believe no one was aware of all the powers ECB have over EU members financial system. Within the EU there are people who place the interests of the Union at first, although some decisions do not make sense for the internal affairs of individual countries. In this case some Italian politicians have suggested selling a smaller amount of gold, but they open pandora's box from which some very illogical things came out.

ECB confirm gold can not be sold, it is not entirely clear who owns the gold (state or Italian Cental Bank), and they even can not say how much gold they have and where exactly the specified amount is stored.

Water is wet. Countries have never controlled their own gold, it's a much more complex array of variables which involve game theory that collides with other countries and their jurisdictions. It's not easy to deal with gold when you are storing it overseas.

Similar to Bitcoin, if the gold is not sitting on your own banks, it's not yours. Maduro should have known better and not store it overseas.

One could argue that Bitcoin is a better store of value than gold, but it would also have problems. It's a click away from someone wanting to betray you. It has it's pros and cons. But all things considered, Bitcoin wins the match.

In my opinion this only applies to some countries, such as poor and developing countries, because the average country needs funds and indeed they may have natural resources but not on the other side, which ends up in debt to other countries. then the debt that keeps rising plus interest makes the country have to pay with their gold.
Mostly large cartels only control 1:3 of the gold in their country.

If Italy is not the owner of Italy's gold then who? is it the USA, World Bank or the Earth itself but it's the European Central Bank  >:(

The only thing that I can see why ECB claiming its authority to Italy's Gold is they look it as a primary collateral to Italy's debt so as soon as they pay it then they can do whatever they want to their own golds.

 

This is very serious, you own an asset that can make you feel good and financially free and yet you have no power to decide what to do and when to use it. This is somehow embarrassing to the state of Italy. Well the government of Italy may want to consider investment in bitcoin. 

well thats how EU  works and as part of the eu youhave to obey the rules and i do think those rules are made for the best of the eu member. i do think bitcoin has a great potential but i dont think eu will allow you to sell your gold to buy bitcoin. Bitcoin still so volatile and its not good to invest nation reserve to something that unpredicted and still have a legal issue in other countries.

You are out of context, some started to speculate of Italy selling its gold reserves because Italy has huge national debt and their economy is in bad shape.



You cant be more wrong in this situation. EU is doing exactly what they should regarding economic policies. Italy has a huge debt, their economic is in bad shape. And they are refusing to cut their spending to get their economic act together. If their current government is stubborn and does not understand that they can not live only on debt, EU has to act. In the end ECb has to bail them out on the expense on others if their economy goes down the drain.

Tradition

When Sen. Ron Paul asked B. Bernanke "Is gold money?", Bernanke answered no.
"Then why central banks keep gold reserves?"
... "Tradition!"

Pinocchio Bernanke...


Gold reserves storage too doesn't need to be outsourced...

In the European Union there are many contradictions between countries and the leaderships of different countries and the European Parliament. Moreover, it often happens that the European Parliament comes into conflict with some countries and due to constant conflicts and bureaucratic difficulties many problems either are postponed or are not solved at all. The problem of the EU is that the countries dont have a common unity. Each country continues to think about its benefits and defends its interests.

If countries decide to store the gold reserve outside this is their responsibility. Who is forcing countries to store here or there? IFM has no choice to store gold somewhere (since it's not a country) but all other countries do have the choice. The same goes for citizens by the way.
The US and London have the biggest volumes, that's why countries decide to store gold there. If they decide to sell, it can be sold quickly.

It's no different in any other country. There's always higher powers that be that control assets such as gold resources. Anyone that thinks that the politicians that supposedly people elected with their votes, can unilaterally do business their gold reserves is deluded.

The only true sovereignty is in Bitcoin, the rest is just subjugated by an elite which has nothing to do with you, me or anyone in here. Which is why Bitcoin continues to be insanely undervalued until it's at least 8 $trillion marketcap.

Well, not all countries are free to choose the storage location.
For example, Italy isn't, as Central Banks are so powerful that they decide about it, and not only about it but in general about how to manage the gold reserves of a country.
That's the reason of the Italian Gov's motion

Italian officers must know about this ruling since they put their gold reserve on the Euro area states. They did this for a purpose and for sure something is happening that we can’t know. So if you compare this into cryprocurrency, its just like putting a money on the exchanges just like the example given above. Its not too late for Italy to do something, there are still ways to save their economy for good.

Maybe,
or maybe Central Banks decide to store the gold reserves of a country in the US and London because over there it is easier for them to manage those reserves for currencies manipulation purposes

Of course, Italy cannot dispose of its foreign exchange reserves. After all, this country belongs to the European Union, has united its economy with other states and therefore uses not its national currency, but the euro. This obliges at least a part of its gold and currency reserves to subordinate to allied needs in order to secure the euro.

Italy just sold share of their most northern port Trieste to Hungary. Croatia and Slovenia both refused to sell part of their ports to Hungarians, Italy did not hesitated. They dont learn it seems.



Euro is not backed by gold but by

http://ir-ia.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/germany-tank-leo-690x367.jpg

This is exactly why Juncker wanted an EU army and all the members can thank their lucky stars they never got one.

That is why cryptocurrencies were invented .
At the end of the day , there are bulls , the market share holders only have a descent amount of control enough to just sell only a small amount which is profitable to not only them but to everyone too.
They should just invest the money in cryptocurrencies so that it infact could be theirs .
Not even fiat kept in bank can be ours , it's the government's property and they can just freeze it anytime.
Gold unless it's kept stored in your house , is also the same.

I would not agree that Euro is backed by any european army of with weaponry. EU is actually divided to interest groups of countries, and if time is come they will defend their interests. If someone thinks the Portuguese or the French will die for the interests of Romanians or Poles or vice versa, that person lives in a big misapprehension.

EU is at this point strong in such measure how strong is the Germany and France, and all other countries are just listen and follow most of time. East of EU is a bit problematic because Hungary, Poland and some others countries do not want to play strictly by the rules, and countries like Romania, Bulgaria or Croatia only serve as a source of cheap labor for west EU.

Italy is somewhere in the middle of this story, but fact that they have over 130% debt (second largest in the worlds) of their GDP and fact that 70% of all decisions are made in the European Parliament does not leave them too much of a maneuver space. They need to listen ECB and be obedient, if they say "your gold is not exactly your gold", then there is not to much to say on that.

Nope, it's backed by this:

https://i.imgur.com/9Bid6gC.jpg


Why wouldn't they?
They've died for Mali, for Kuwait, for South Korea and for a lot more, Portugal sent troops to East Timor :P
Who would have thought that France and Great Britan who had been at war for centuries would spend a century as allies in both WW?

Vietnam is begging the US for support against China, an aircraft carrier was deployed there last year...
In 1970you would have believed this is going to happen?

it has always been and will continue this way, that everyone will protect only their own interests.  And if these interests coincide, then only then can there be any associations.  The European Union is already outdated and has become a bureaucratic structure that cannot fully protect itself.

Yup I totally agree.  And if we look in past I am sure many times Portuguese and French soldiers were fighting for Romania.   Europe was a continent of wars. Every single country fought most of time. When they closed one war they opened another. It was that way for 1000 years. EU stopped that.  EU is huge project. It is an infant and of course have lots of enemies. All strong countries are afraid of united Europe.  Al the rest are happen to have free trade with Europe. Japan, Vietnam, South America. Whoever is liberal can join to prosper.

In my opinion, this is a normal state of affairs. If the states combined their finances and their foreign exchange reserves and on this basis created a common currency - the euro, then they are obliged to coordinate their financial actions with the European Bank. If each country continues to dispose of its gold and foreign exchange reserves at its discretion, then the euro will be completely unsecured.