Bitcoin Forum

Hi

I saw todays dip and then read that a whale von Bitstamp sold about 3600 coins at once and tanked the price down to 6200 for a short period of time. Now it stabilized at around 7200 USD.

Why do these people do this? Are they just morons?

If they would sell their coins within a period of 3-4 days they could probably get close to 8000 USD for every single BTC ...

Pump ... Dump ... buy back lower
Buy Low Sell High

Yes they are morons  ::)



What you are saying i be greedy. All traders know that greed kills.
These whales probably made their whole year in this run.

it is very difficult to understand how the brain of certain people work, maybe that person had bought when the price was $ 3100 and realized that he had already made a lot of profit and decided to sell. That's why we need to have a big market that is very strong, so things like these will do not happen

They dump their huge bitcoin because they already made big money on that.
If they were able to buy at dip which is around $3300, a 100% profit is already big considering the amount of bitcoin they dump.

That's the logic here, they are whales and they are smart, no waiting anymore when you can make money at the price now.

Some took the opportunity to cash in the gains from the last days.
I believe that there's a possibility that somebody thought he'll be able to lower the price a lot more and profit, but failed to do that (the market didn't follow the downtrend and stabilized at 7000-7200).

They had to make money, very simple.

Selling at profit, buy back at the dipped price, rinse and repeat

But they get $8000 or close to that because they sell all at once, and not only that - they probably buy back some coins when price is drop to $6200 on Bitstamp. This is win-win situation for big players who can move market in direction they want anytime.

Imagine a possible scenario, few months ago you buy 5000 BTC at the price of $3000, which is investment worth $15 million. Today you sell those coins at price close to $8000 and get $40 million, profit is $25 million. In case you manage to buy at lowest price ($6200) you can get your 5000 BTC for $31 million and enjoy in $9 million of profit, you have bitcoin and cash - I would not call them morons ;)

How can you know that? The market becomes very unstable when the price moves so quickly, selling big amounts of coins when you feel that reversal is imminent is smart, because otherwise another whale will do it and will beat you to those profits. If there was more support across the order books, maybe whales wouldn't sell so quickly.

If i own such money i would definitely sell it all together to make the price drops hard then buy again at the new low. I will keep doing the same thing over and over to grab as much as I can!

I think they sell because maybe they buy when price was 4000$ and they could sell for a good profit, but they should not do this because if they wait more they can get a good profit if the price go over 10000$.

I don't think that the whales are a moron because they will have their strategy in the market which we don't know.
They will not tell what they want to do to us because that is their secret and they want to get the benefits of the downtrends.
We cannot say that they made a mistake by selling their bitcoin right now because I am sure that they are doing what it takes related to the market situations.

They just follow old models. Pump a few weeks. Look where the price stabilize. Wait 2-4 days. İf stagnation, dump. Then wait another 2-4 days how the market reacts. If nothing happens, dump one more... You will see, if we hover around 7k for 3-4 days the next dump to 6k will come.

This happened so often the last years.

People with 3600 coins probably are a not morons (at least in a economical view)

Unfortunately these things happen, you'll get used to if you follow the market, it's a strategy to sell high and buy low, because they have a high amount of coins

So many factors are involved. From what I have read this pump was a short squeeze by deep pocketed whales buying in order to liquidate shorts. When it gets to the top and no more left to squeeze they short the top(or short on the way up) then dump. It is actually fascinating watching this all unfold. But whales are our friends. They have helped drive the price to $20k. Im sure at times when there have been rogue players maybe trying to drive the price down and hurt btc they stepped in and bought. Does it suck that they dumped? Of course, but unless you were planning to sell they beat people to it first. It may continue to drop for awhile but im looking at it as a buying op for the real bull run. Just my 2c.
G/l

They are not morons.
Actually, they know exactly what they do. When they sell they drop the price and maybe they buy again instantly. The market is strongly manipulated by them and they have made many profits from these strategies.

Everyone takes the opportunity that has. And whales are in much different position compared to rest of us and they do something because just they can. But there are reasons behind their decision and they don't certainly care about the rest of the market.

You think someone sold 3600 bitcoins and didn't bought anything back?

I am 100% certain whoever sold that much bitcoin to dump the price actually bought it back from cheaper and got even more bitcoins. I am not a technical analyst so I can't really say what the support line was at bitstamp during those times but dude could have managed to break the support line go lower and then gathered as much as he can until the next resistance line. That way he guarantees that he is not going to be outbid by anyone since the lines are clear and he can break all of them whenever he wants to with the amount of money he has.

Whales do not become whales for no reason, they are whales because they know how to handle their money very well so whenever you think they did something wrong wait a bit more.

Someone made a buy order for 5000 bitcoin, i dont think it was a dump, or am i wrong here?

I think it's rude to call them moron. They have their own decisions and reasons of selling.
I'm sure that they wouldn't sell them without gaining anything in return. They have their own mind and manipulation of their earnigs. Maybe they have their own strategies that we didn't know.

The problem is Bitmex. Even if a bearwhale sell for 6k, and price recovers back to 7k, he will have profit from gambling with derivatives.

I think it's one of two things.

Either they saw the price dripping and panic sold into a thin book, or they thought they could actually dump prices into the $6,000s and that would spiral into a bigger crash.

Either way, it looks to me like we're going to stabilize off the $7,000 level and continue upwards.

It is intentional. It is to drive panic. They know how deep the order books are in each exchanges. They know how ripe the bitcoin price is for a correction (stochastic indicators and others). They will short sell of course and then buy cheaper. Markets are just like that.

The recent dump back to $6000 is a definite example that some of them are indeed morons, or perhaps it's just some sort of error on the side of the whales. We will never know the reason why would someone dump that big on a single exchange. It could very well be one shakeout/bull trap and some people may have taken the bait as was evidenced by the volumes of sell orders on different exchanges during the same time. At this point, the momentum for the bulls is still strong and we can still afford a lot of 'mistakes' from whales (hopefully).

Maybe it was the mystery buyer with $100m around $5k price cashing out? talk about a huge quick profit if it was...

Why would you ask if the whales are morons? As a matter of fact, they will not be able to reach their status today if they are morons.
And usually, those who question them are the people we must ask, what have you proven to consider yourself as an intelligent person?
I did not mean to offend. But the question is rude. This is not even an opinion.

If you have a question with their actions, then you must find an answer yourself why are they doing what they do today. I have this analogy
and I could use the movie Avengers: Endgame.  Avengers did not go back from the time where Thanos was only a baby and killed him? Are they dumb?

People who think about a single possibility is the true idiot. A person who knows 5 steps away from the first possibility will have the chance to play stupid and fool people.

That's not really true. I've seen countless whales market dump and fail miserably to push prices down, situations where they'll never be able to rebuy their coins at the same prices again. They're losing their status as whales and distributing their coins to smaller fish.

Just look at the Bitstamp whale from yesterday. He dumped down to the low $6,000s but the price basically never returned below $7K after that. If we continue up from here, it's obvious that whale royally screwed himself, whether out of panic or some misguided idea that he could dictate the market.

Smart whales scale in and out with algos like TWAP and VWAP. Only dumb whales (soon to be broke non-whales) who think they can push the market around announce their presence and market sell loads of coins at spot. This is like 2012 MT Gox level stupidity.

There could be things behind that that we might not know but it is clear that when viewed from trade it is stupid and seems panic. but let it go at least make bitcoin more stable and that is the hope of many people.

Why do you think someone is a moron because he made big profits? For some people bitcoin is just money machine, nothing more than that. If you read my post (number 7), you can see an example how to get profit in fiat, and to get bitcoin back. Selling everything on one exchange had its purpose, and that is to bring down the price as low as possible - they buy back those coins, and price is quickly recovered.

After all, everything comes down to how much money is in the game, $100 million can pump price $1000 in one hour, and 5000 BTC dump can do the same thing, only in the opposite direction.

Its their coin. They own it so they could sell it anytime they want to.

They aint morons. They have their own strategies doing that. If they fail then so what. But do you know who bought all that bitcoins to pump it again. It could be them too. Playing with the price just so they could profit easily.

They know bitcoin owners are weak right now because of the pumps that had been happening. It could be a good strategy to make them panic.

No they’re not morons they’re smart traders who know how to manipulate the market to make profits for themselves. In this scenario let’s assume he brought bitcoins at $3100 levels, and sold them at $7.5k levels now do the math and see for yourself the profits he got. It’s pertinent to note that no one can know for certain whether bitcoin prices will rise or take a dump, hence he’s justified in making that trade.

I doubt they are morons, since they are the ones making the money and controlling the market.

His action bought the bitcoin into its correction right now. Now, since he sold his bitcoin at around $8,000 he can gain good profit if afterwards he bought the same bitcoin at $7,000. This is just actually a strategy in trading and I am sure that guy is right now smiling because he made a good amount of money in such a short period of time. And with that kind of move, let's not label him (assuming he is a guy) really as a moron though what he did affected us all in one way or another in the cryptocurrency industry.

The morons are those who bought when bitcoin pumped and sold after the whales dumped on them. It might even be that it is them that initiated the current bull run. You can't call them moron, they are geniuses.

Maybe that wasn't a "whale" ? I mean I know we call everyone who has a lot of money a whale these days but in real world people call rich people who usually keep making a lot of money whales. So for example, in casino world, if someone comes into your casino and plays 10 million dollar bet that night and leaves and comes back next month to do the same all because they are just having fun there that means they are literally whales, they don't care about that money.

Now this person who did all the selling and dropping the price could be an early bird, does he have a lot of money? Sure, does that mean he is a whale? Not in the sense I just talked about, that person is rich but he just got lucky, he is not like wall street CEO rich who keeps getting millions of dollars no matter what.

They could sell all their bitcoins at 8000 USD without moving the market, even in 2 days if they wanted, however it is far more profitable to sell most of it at 7500-8000$ and wait for the price to tank further, without them spending more bitcoins and re-buying at 6200$ pumping the market right back up, almost instantly getting 15% returns, they also know the market is bullish right now and will very likely just climb back up to 8000 and beyond so they are just accumulating more bitcoin ''for free''

LOL wish I were such a moron whale holding 5-digits worth of BTC that allow me to manipulate the price at my will  ::)

Why do you think they do this? Because it's fun causing a flash crash? The whale who did that probably decided to cash out massive profits before it's too late, some people set exit-points at certain prices, it's called having an strategy in a highly volatile market, that whale probably had one at +8k, nothing moronic about that.

A whale just refers specifically to the amount of bitcoin they own.  Some are smart and shrewd some are dumb and lucky but either way they are whales

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/b/bitcoin-whale.asp

It doesn't make sense to dump all those coins at once, especially on a very illiquid exchange like Bitstamp. They basically put in the best offer and kept changing the price as it went down, creating algo bots to sell on other exchanges which do arbitrage.

Most likely it was manipulation to liquidate the $200 million longs on Bitmex which seems a common thing to do because people usually over-leverage on that exchange.

They did an investigation and said that nothing deliberate was found however I don't belive its the entire story.

Why they do? Because they want more money even if they have huge amount of money which is enough to manipulate trillions market cap coins. ::)

They can bring down the price for a while but when others reacting to it then that is their real success so they bag huge profits by buying them at low price.

i don't trust things i "read online" and neither should you. for example in this case was it really one whale selling 3600 bitcoin or was it 3600 bitcoin sold in that period by traders tanking the price? there is a big difference here. looking at the charts it is a sharp drop but if you zoom in to minute intervals you can see that it is traders panic selling which is a normal thing specially when they are using bots with stop loss orders and watchers to execute them so when a drop happens below their threshold their bot kicks in and starts selling so the big drop shapes up sharp like this.

this was a manipulation though because it started by a whale(s?) selling down to that threshold to trigger the sharp drop so that their shorts could be filled. but the size was nowhere near 3600BTC from what i can see.

Thanks for the clarification, but in the minds of the people, whales are usually smart, and those who are moving the market are smart whales since they can take advantage of their power by manipulating the price for their own interest.
If I am a whale, I would be alright to be called as dumb whale as long as I have the money to sell and satisfy my financial needs.
My satisfaction level is too low, I'll be happy with 1000 BTC,  ;D

What about the futures market for Bitcoin, there must be some immense players on there who are willing to take out giant bets on the price falling because crypto is so alien to them and in their opinion worth nothing at all hence no risk to sell off massive amounts.     If we have leveraged players like that available it means they must rush to place the contract into the real exchange, perhaps placing it immediately is less dangerous to them then doing so carefully over a long time period


The more you have, the more there is to lose in being wrong.   I'm not sure I want that worry every time I go through the day or try to sleep knowing I bet BTC to go down so much.     I think crypto will defeat the whales eventually so long as its used by and is useful to the people around the world.   Global natural holding and use of BTC will create bigger waves then even a giant whale can swallow

Thats how market works Buddy! when they sell high prices with tons of bitcoin, then many people will panic and sell. prices fell then whales returned to re-buy, tell me where was the stupidity you saw? they are smarter than we imagine, sometimes it's hard to guess what their plans are. if we know what they are planning, maybe we can avoid losses and profits at the right time.

They are smarter than us and they can manipulate the market if they want to.  Whales have that strategies and even more effective with side, they'll wanting more panic sellers cause they are the one who are greatly benefiting for this.  If we don't have trust with the market,  will simply near into becoming one of the panic seller.

Where more and more whales flow into the market they get competition as well and cant manipulate that easily anymore where they got different entries and exit points against each other.

Whales are not stupid, their calculations are better than us, there are various reason why they sell the coin, maybe they already got the profit and maybe they hope they can create a panic sell and could buy cheaper again, its impossible the whales will sell that huge amount without any good calculation

They know what they are doing and they also know their capability. Though manipulation will get hard for them but trying to attract panic sellers and get benefits from them. They played the market well and I'm not thinking that they are stupid also, in fact, they use this market to improve their lives and take advantage over panic sellers.

The more you have actually I think the less you would care about the fluctuations.  Its definately I worry I think I would embrace  :P

I wouldn't categorically say that they are morons.

But they know what they're doing here. They know how to play the market and the emotions of investors, specially those who are very young at this market.

They can sell at whatever price they want and then probably buy more when the price dips. So if you don't know how to ride the waves then surely you will get drown and let a expensive lessons.

If you bought like 5000BTC below $4000, how much of a moron are you if you can sell each coin for an average price of $6800?

Most of the people people would laugh in your face if you told them that the price would go over $6000 this soon. Morons are those who sell their coins below the price they bought them at. Making millions in profits in a fairly short period of time makes you a trader I would respect a lot. No hodl bs, just straight rational thinking and thus profit taking.  :)

It wasnt that they are selling but the way it was sold.  If they slow rolled their sells they would stand to make a lot more than the way they mass dumped into market buys clearing the book on the way down. 

I get your point, but slow rolling as you call it, may result in another whale to tank the price down, and then what? You missed out big time. It's literally eat or get eaten here, especially with how the price wasn't able to hold up much longer around the $8000 level. The slippage as result of thin orderbooks is quite insane in crypto, so it's not that uncommon that whales will use an inflated price to cash out.

Currently we're yet again attempting to break through the same resistance, so it's going to be interesting to see if we will again face a massive dump.

Some whales are definitely morons, there’s no doubt, at least when it comes to markets.

It’s impossible to know though if they’re just dumping into a thin book and unintentionally accumulating slippage, or if this guy was actually trying to move the market.

If this guy was just dumping coins for fiat, he’s an idiot, because it would likely be impossible to rebuy lower again with any certainty. But If he was positioned on Bitmex to profit from the mass long liquidations, it’s a different story. This may have been a way to sell thousands of coins to fiat while simultaneously recouping them with shorts on Bitmex.

The wildest speculation so far that I have seen is that BitMEX was behind the dump to liquidate the crap out of the long positions, but another conspiracy theory without proof to back it up.

Overall, having that many coins by default grants you a massive advantage over the rest of the market due to how thin the books are, so from there it makes sense to have a leveraged side trade on BitMEX.

There are no set rules that makes side trading illegal or whatever, so traders are free to do it. People here are upset that the price went down instead of up, that's why they call it manipulation.

Instead of say that they are morons, actually they help us to pump bitcoin price. Even it is only rumour, but whales who pumped crypto price is can be logically accepted. And about people who lose because buy in high price, the risk is taken by ourself.

It is not that they are idiots, maybe he needed the money or maybe he was interested in a much more juicy investment than what he had here, it may have influenced some information handled by other people and that came to him and decided to sell, because if he left If you win that, you could have gained much more with another type of investment in a more stable currency, since the most stable currencies are the safest and the first ones to give very high profits when the bitcoin rises or is placed in a bullish trend.

The Strong Hands are operators who have squared all their movements very accurately, maybe the idiots are the ones who think they are idiots, because these people have many analysts who work for them and their own criteria, because they handle large amounts of money and these large amounts are supported.

In addition, no one can be a fortune-teller in thinking that in 3 or 4 days it would increase, but it is necessary to emphasize that those sales were to himself in another account to test the price range and to lower it so that the market reacted, then it could have been that has sold those coins to the same causing a possible bullish reaction, and won in the same way, because the whales, strong hands make such movements to deceive operators, this is very normal in both the crypto market and the stock Market, usually the whales always win, with very little failure percentage they lose, very few times they do it.

We are not interested in whales pumping the market for us because this action of their end up damaging the market badly and pulling lots of people down, the same way they acted in 2017 and damaged the market badly is the same thing you are inviting here.

Whales are just here for their selfish interest but we need large firs and large financial institutions that will take bitcoin seriously and start using it and also introducing it to their customers, if we can get a massive adoption from these people, then the market will pump naturally that even if people are doing shorts, it will not pull the market down.