Bitcoin Forum

https://www.forbes.com/sites/yayafanusie/2019/05/29/stronger-aml-enforcement-might-actually-save-crypto/?utm_content=92934236&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&hss_channel=tw-3972254294#73d10bfb7e78

Saw this article today and made me really think about this topic. What are your thoughts?

I feel like the KYC and AML companies such as Ciphertrace and Refinitiv are really helping with regulations and making governments feel better about crypto

regulations are not the same as consumer protections. people can still be scammed. just look at the mortgage and credit card sector that offer huge interest rates, not many/any months of payment breaks/error correcting before they enforce. and if the institution offering the credit does something wrong, they never have to be accountable.

regulations are mainly to make big well financed businesses that can afford to hoard large sums to pay for licences, get certified with shiny sherrif badges to police their customers. its a fake veil of trust having the title of being regulated, but once you pull the veil away you see the truth.
companies that are regulated get to write their own policy guidelines for how they will police their customers and report customers that perform tasks that are not damaging/dangerous to anyone else, but may (emphasis: may) result in some tax dodging mainly.

yes wall street only want to work with other wall street certified entities. all so they can have their boys club of shuffling funds around knowing the licence will protect and cover them.

this stuff keeps out the new entities and the individuals who could offer better, but just are not on the same level

crypto does not need saving from the likes of businesses with regulations. what crypto actually needs is to untie its dependence on fiat and become more a product/service<->crypto model without the need of fiat involvement in the middle

but there are always going to be fiat lovers who just want to never understand crypto. but just dip their toe into it long enough to increase their fiat balance and run back to fiat. and its these fiat lovers that care only about speculation a FOMO price spikes for greedy fiat gains. NOT to 'save crypto'

People are praying for KYC-AML and any kind of regulation thinking it will help for mass adoption. Yes, a little but not much.
Bitcoin was created to avoid all these limits but since some years people want it back as if they liked having a leash. F**k that, Bitcoin can become a popular alternative currency without stupid laws, not in line with reality. It's just helping the Finance to infest us.

Is this a good thing? They are helping governments to control Cryptocurrency investors and make the government feel better. But investors think anxious, and they worry when their identities released to governments, they worry that the government will tax their investments.

Just look at this:

ICO:

Humanityone and Cryptoinfinity, etc... - MASSIVE SCAM - Fake team (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5141351.0)

[FAKE TEAM MEMBER]: Zoptax Coin (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5147804.0)

exchange:

My Bittrex account has been disabled. (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2267728.0)

HitBTC scam! (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2556342.0)

casinos:

Cloudbet Stole 55.35BTC of mine (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5137525.0)

[scam] BetKing.io broke ICO promise and dropped token value 99% (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5122856.0)

if we had a legalized market, it would be easier to punish the scammers and probably the scam number would be lower

It seems like we are using different bitcoins lol. From what I see everyone is crying every time some project is asking for their useless ID. Thousands of normal (and probably retarded) users refuse to invest in ICOs with KYC because they are afraid for their "private data".

Without this legal stuff cryptocurrencies won't get any volume.

If you think that you can easily perform transactions, that are legaly controlled by the government, by just using cryptocurrencies then you are probably the one who is not in line with reality.

Yes but guess what? Scams will still exist, hey will use another business scam model. Anyone can create a website.
Do we have less scam with fiats since the last 2 decades overloaded with many regulations as possible? Nope, how it could be different to Bitcoin?
Look at the examples you posted, why create a regulation/law to punish someone scamming. If you scam, you scam, no need to create a new law for each item stolen.

Who ask for transactions legally controlled by govt. Surely not me.

How the volume comes since the years?

I also think that it helps governments feel better about it, since regulations is one is the most important things that decide if something is official or not.

I personally don't like those verification steps too much because i feel like they are lacking. For now, they are enough though. But having some ideas to implement more effective methods in the future would be a really nice thing.

Then no one cares about simple transactions. You can easily pay some online shop for example that accept BTC without passing AML.

If you need some crypto related service with a decent volume to work properly then those services have to do some AML stuff. Everyone have to deal with it as soon as the volume is big enough.
Same thing is also related to normal fiat services.

Well, governments can't keep ignoring crypto forever, especially if it's expanding, so there's really only 2 options - they ban it or they regulate it. I wouldn't want to see crypto banned, it would make things harder for us all, we'd have to use shady exchanges or risk trading p2p with strangers, banks would freeze our accounts if they'd find that we use crypto, and I won't even start talking about legal problems.

I think the article is making things too dramatic:
Well, how about none of these options? How about banks and governments losing their power over our financial freedom so that Bitcoin can be for everyone? Okay, I get it, financing terrorism and laundering money are bad. But you know what? Banks are regularly caught in money laundering scandals, and governments finance terrorists in some situations. Moreover, both exist as issues with fiat as well, even though fiat is rather controlled. Or what, shouldn't they ban all cash, then, because people can use it anonymously?
I think it might be okay to impose KYC procedures on people with very significant amounts of money, but the cause definitely does not justify keeping track of every transaction and the identity behind it.

Despite all the security measures offered by cryptocurrency, the government would still reject it. The government would always be an antagonist and would stay firm in ignoring it. KYC couldn't make the government accept crypto. It will always be against it as long as they couldn't manipulate it. 

Nah, there are governments who brutally hates crypto and even though there are companies that who are trying to track down everything, they won't give a s**t. On the other hand, do we really need regulations to really curb out scammers in the ecosystem? Would it be better if we could use our common sense before investing on something? If there are AML/KYC would it make any difference at all?

Even with the existence of KYC, the government will still hate cryptocurrency because it's a big threat for them. We all know that they don't want financial freedom and they want to regulate crypto. Kyc will not be a reason enough to save crypto because it couldn't even give us the security that we're all asking for.

Stricter regulations won't save crypto. Admit it or not, no matter how tight security is against scammers and money launderers, they can still find a way to get bsck and do their nefarious activities all over again. It's a part of the community already, and the only way to combat this is to educate people harder against some scams in the making. Always remember that prevention is better than cure, and for crypto, the cure is almost impossoble to acquire once the damage has been done.

Anti money Laundering enforcement is the sure way to track down all the bad guys that has bring crypto down. With a strong AML enforcement set by all government to track down crypto users, it might reduce the scam and trace all the money hacked or stolen through false crypto projects.

Let's say everyone wanted to go through the KYC procedure.But what can you say about anonymous cryptocurrencies? Can you destroy them or decrease their demand?

Lol. The bad guys are part of the 1% club in crypto. In order to hit these bad guys you want to punish the good guys accounting for the other 99%?

If people weren't so naive and stupid, scams would be way less of a thing. Most scams can be prevented simply by having people use common sense. If something looks too good to be true, it mostly is. The potential 'gain' there is to make isn't worth the risk/reward ratio. It offers odds worse than a casino where most people lose anyway. You think you can beat that? Think again.  ::)

Would you like paying taxes and get tracked for every satoshi that you own? That is what these services are planning to do "Impress the Governments"

Who wants to make the government feel better? Satoshi doesn't. Dissolves the entire point of holding crypto. You either run decentralized & anonymous or pay taxes and get tracked. I choose the obvious one.

Crypto doesn't need any saving in that sense, it's not going to disappear simply because of scammers in the ecosystem - it's simply a tradeoff between freedom and regulation. Scams are actually less impactful now, because crypto economy became bigger, so an exit scam of one business won't shake the whole economy, like it was in the past, and for bigger businesses it's much better to play fair and aim for the long run. Regulation mostly comes because crypto can become a major part of money laundering schemes.

KYC is a scam. Not even if I buy a car I need KYC now here everything needs KYC for what reason?

KYC is being abused and is not helping. Stop believing these lies articles. If telling people where you live is ok then ok can I have your KYC? I just start an ICO tomorrow and demand KYC and money.

It doesn't even make sense since most projects fail or are scams and never even get to the part they have to worry about the law. Maybe they should run a decent project before they worry about the law?
Like maybe stop scamming...

I think that the more regulatory policies introduced the better! I'm just happy to be at the fulcrum of the Bitcoin movement. Clearly the more the governments accept Bitcoin, the higher the price will rise and the less volatile the market will become.
   For those that think regulation is bad, surely they are sadly mistaken, but not without reasonable doubt. Freedom without order is anarchy, as order without freedom is tyranny. When the freedom of cryptocurrencies converge with the order of governmental regulations, everyone profits. As long as the order doesn't stifle the innovation.
  

there's such a stark contrast between old school bitcoiners and these get-rich-quick late adopters. the second group is just greedy and desperate for prices to rise, either so they can recover from 2018's losses or so they can get rich quick. they don't give a shit about decentralization or privacy. so they're happy to cheer on the rise of blockchain analysis companies because they think it means government legitimacy = price pump.

where have all the cypherpunks gone? :-\

they are in it for the money they can generate from selling out their data mining and analysis
I feel what they are doing is more like invasion on people's privacy, similar to what google does on its users' online activities
what governments want is the ability to control cryptocurrency, also to know who and what people do with crypto

anybody who says this and believes in that, has not understood what decentralized cryptocurrency means. bitcoin doesn't need saving, and AML KYC is not going to solve anything in the altcoin shitshow market either.
as for bitcoin it will continue operating and be adopted more and more even without government intervention. because that is exactly what bitcoin is designed to do and that is the main reason why it was  created in first place.
as for altcoins, the scams will continue to happen, the shitcoins will continue to be created and the fund raising shenanigans will repeat with different names such as IEO, GSIO (government sanctioned initial offering) while scamming people all the same.
the only thing AML does is help government have more information what people do with their money and also tax them on it. nothing else.

which is my question how to do that, while crypto is an anonymous currency. very difficult for now because of the many decentralized exchanges such as Idex and Forkdelta. so I think AML is difficult to fully implement.

Personally, I have no problem with the KYC requirement which many projects and platforms are implementing in the name of being compliant with the laws of the country. However, I also understand that we can never be sure that our information is actually safe as anybody can decide anytime to monetize them for any reason. I think the best solution for this is to use a platform which utilize the blockchain technology for our data for safeguarding purposes and where we only have to do one time submission of pertinent data and documents. I know there will always be people who are not comfortable with any form of KYC...and for now the best solution for them is to avoid any service that requires such instead look for other alternatives.

Go back to sleep. You are delusional. Why are you here please tell me? You obviously have very little understanding of what liberation is. Good luck to you paying tax to a government that wastes it. Regulations just make things harder and give more control to the government. The government has nothing to do with crypto, it was made for the people by the people and there is nothing you or anyone else can do about it, so seriously dude go to sleep. THis isn't the place for pro-government and pro regulations. If you want that sell all your crypto and use fiat. Regulation doesn't mean safe. I bet you one of the people that have given out your KYC. WHen exchanges get hacked and your personal info is leaked good luck to you.

Even as a small child yo utqaight not to give any personal info to anyone no matter who they say they are. Would you give your KYC to a stranger in the street? Please man get real they use this regualtion crap to hide behine what they really do. It isn't the holders they need to worry about its the people running the exchange. I will never give my personal info out because legally I don't have to. Please learn the law. If an exchange wants my KYC that's fine but then I want the KYC of every single person working at that exhange or guess what?? They hiding something.


Ok... YOu think its safe?? Can I have your KYC please? WHy not?? I can just run an ICO and claim to follow laws that are made up to begin with. Can you not understand its all bullshit. Go to your local authorty and ask them if you should be giving your eprsonal info to strangers. You are insane. Exchanges are not safe. No KYC is safe. Echanges get hacked and you lose your cryprto and your identity.

Go do some research about identity theft. People can destroy your life. YOu think its safe? Sorry but my family and their safety is more important then any law. I know I am not a crimanal so I don't need these regualtions.
They ask KYC when you move hundereds of dollars. Its a hostage tactic. YOu sound like you bow down to authorty. I bet if I pulled you over while you were driving you would stop just because I have a uniform on. Hell you would probably do anything I say. Slaves to the system.

"Central" Regulation = Central takeover of crypto.

By the way, why request for all these when you can just use fiat currencies? Besides, most centralized crypto companies are already kyc/AML compliant.

Excessive "Central" regulations will effectively turn Bitcoin & other cryptocurrencies into fiat currencies.
Currency seizure, Privacy violations, Centralizion, price manipulations,  censorship, economy manipulation, fund mismanagement, shared debt, will become a norm in crypto. Is that what you want?

Reading through the comments, it seems a lot of us here don't really believe that KYC-AML laws is not the key to unleash the real purpose of cryptocurrency. However, one issue of the governments has to be resolve, and it's about money laundering! We know that illegal money has been laundered here in cryptocurrency with ease that no one can ever trace. My point here is, while cryptocurrency hasn't been performing as it was designed to, which is decentralized in a sense independent of the fiat money, the government has to something. Just as they said, there are only to options: ban or set up AML laws.

I think people fear that with regulation there will be major shift in crypto as we know it but honestly I think with regulation there will be a change in cutting out any scams or bad actors. We might not necessarily need government but cyber security firms like Ciphertrace that are pro-crypto and the government trusts.

AML really just watches major movements of money that look super suspicious. My thoughts are this is actually super positive for the overall ecosystem in terms of volatility and distribution

Having pro crypto cyber security firms like ciphertrace is what we need to help with proper aml

I honestly think there will be AML regardless of whether people want it or not. There has to be common stomping grounds between the public and different governments. I hope privacy coins will stay around but honestly the compliant blockchains are going to be the ones that persevere through the years

Most of us do not give two shits about what the government feels about Bitcoin, because their agenda will never match the needs of the public for Bitcoin to succeed. They want total transparency and zero financial privacy for their citizens, which is a Win for them and a loose for the public.  ::)

It would be nice if they can meet us somewhere in between, but I think that will not happen soon, because they have enough power to force whatever they want on to public citizens.  >:(

So we continue trying to bypass centralized government control and allow oversight.  :P

You said it right. It's transparency that we need especially if the transactions are already on a public ledger why wouldn't we want to explore transparency of illegal movements of money? Especially if there are cyber security companies that work to do this that are pro-crypto. They aren't trying to take down the system...... just take out the bad guys

Fraudsters can also provide kyc verification for users, so I would not call it a clear indicator of the legitimacy of a startup. And for a long time I could not understand why it was necessary at all for them to submit my documents when it was not known where they would use them. But apparently it was just an attempt to deceive investors and show themselves as a real ICO project, and not a scam

Making governments feel better about crypto? Sure. Making banks and businesses feel safer (and not about making the world a better place, but about keeping their licences!) about dealing with crypto-related enterprise? Absolutely.

But saving crypto? From what? People have been using and trading Bitcoin for as long as it's been around, and not because of AML enforcement, but despite it!


Other than exchanges with licences, yeah, this is my thinking actually. Someone asks me for verification and I'm suspicious. Mind thinks = you're using Bitcoin, why're you asking?

Kyc and AML are necessary procedures for investors to ensure that the project complies with financial legislation. If you do not know how to choose a ico I would advise you to study the educational section for crypto investors on the taklimakan platform. There are training courses for beginners where explains all the difficult moments of cryptocurrency functioning and tips on how to choose the best ico or sto project for investment

All the concerned parties in an ICO that has the KYC process have a better chance of receiving recognition from banks and other financial institutions. The ICOs are also more likely to follow the anti-money laundering regulations.

If the startup project conducts a IEO sale phase, they will not ask you for personal information. Especially if the exchange is decentralized. You should also pay attention to where the project plans to add its tokens before deciding whether to invest there.

That's true and agree with you, the list keeps growing and there is not much that we can do, if not for the like of ICOEthics, scammers will not be caught and the millions of dollars that are lost will be doubled, we need regulation to stop scammers and save ICO or do away with crowdfunding.

I think you are wrong entirely. There really isn't a way for them to make a bunch of money of the data of people's transactions? That makes no sense at all. Instead it's the exchanges that bring these good guys like Ciphertrace to help with tracking of any mass movements of money. They are pro-crypto

No people just need to stop being greedy and stupid and giving their money to scammers. Crowdfunding is awesome and works very well. Many cool things have been brought to life because of it.


They can monitor spending habits and then other data. Don't forget google record your habits and that is how they target you with the different ads. They may be able to sell this info to other companies. I have had phone calls and advertising sms sent to a phone number I never gave anyone. They got it off a list no doubt.

It would make sense that if countries already has AML regulations in place for fiat wouldn't they want to do the same with any currency? I know it varies country by country but I think it's going to have to be necessary to have something in place and firms like ciphertrace in place to help with the proper technology for crypto