Bitcoin Forum

So, we all know everyone is going on and on about Bitcoin mining wasting lots of electricity and how this is harmful to the environment, but have we ever considered how harmful other payment methods are?

Visa and MasterCard have about 65 million customers <old statistic> and we also have debit cards from Banks and also other payment cards like American Express and Diners Club etc. A lot of these cards are replaced once every year and it is made from material that are very harmful to the environment.

Cards are made of several layers of plastic laminated together. The core is commonly made from a plastic resin known as polyvinyl chloride acetate (PVCA). This resin is mixed with opacifying materials, dyes, and plasticizers to give it the proper appearance and consistency. - Source : http://www.madehow.com/Volume-4/Credit-Card.html

The average American has 2 to 3 credit cards and there were 304 million Visa credit cards in circulation in the United States and 545 million Visa credit cards in circulation outside of the United States in September 2014. Source : https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/market-share-statistics.php

There are about 189 million Americans adults with at least one credit card.

In Q4 <2014> cards in circulation looked like this :

Citigroup -    109,774,131

JPMorgan - 93,847,656   

Bank of America - 79,822,686
   
Capital One - 63,194,228
   
American Express - 54,900,000

Discover - 43,630,772

Synchrony - 31,030,786
   
Wells Fargo - 24,271,107
   
Barclays Delaware Holdings - 16,156,368
   
U.S. Bancorp - 14,440,681

So, looking at some of the statistics and considering that those cards must be manufactured with the use of electricity and also destroyed and ending up in landfills, then I would say Bitcoin's carbon footprint must be minuscule compared to this industry.

Feel free to add some updated statistics and also a graphical presentation of what those millions of cards would look like, if you had them all together. We would circle the earth a couple of times, if we had all the cards that were manufactured, since it was introduced many years ago.  ::)
   

i wouldnt start going down the road of XXXm slithers of plastic. as the materials used in creating an asic actually outpace credit card plastic

did you know the power cord(to wall socket) alone has more plastic than 5 credit cards
the styrofoam/bubble wrap that the delivery box contains also has more plastic than credit cards
and i havnt even started on the insides of an asic


the main debate about bitcoins environmental wastage is myth busted because most asic farms are set up in area's that have cheap renewable electric generation, meaning low coal/oil/gas electric generation linked to bitcoin

however visa/mastercard's datacentres, wall streets skyscrapers and all those individual bank branches use far more electric

Yes, but the purpose of this debate is to open people's eyes to the "hidden" pollution that are not talked about, when they target Bitcoin for their "wasteful" use of electricity and how harmful some aspects of other payment options are to the environment.

We have not even touched on the sourcing of the components/minerals needed to create paper/plastic notes and also metal coins.  :P

There are more ATM's and card readers out there, than all the ASIC miners ever manufactured and they use a lot more components to manufacture these devices.  ;)

everyone who has ever mentioned "waste of electricity" and "bitcoin" in the same sentence have been trying to attack bitcoin for different purposes. the thing is, the amount of energy used on its own is not an indicating factor about being wasteful or not. it is about why that amount of energy is used and what is given in return.
in case of bitcoin, the purpose which all of those attackers deliberately ignore is to have a unique global payment system that can not be shut down, censored, or controlled. it works 24/7 and literary everyone on the entire planet can use it if they choose to because there is no centralized authority that can prevent them for any arbitrary reason like being from certain country or nonsense like that.
for this valuable service, the amount of electricity used is nothing!

agreed
there are more PC's in banking skyscrappers, bank branches and data centres
more ATM's and merchant card readers

but the plastic credit card itself, isnt a stat thats gonna win the debate in favour of bitcoin

asic manufacturers are already solving the environment issue. imagine if we were using gpu's.
imagine it.. how many GPU's, motherboards and power supplies would be needed to attain 56terrahash(1 asic)

now imagine 80exahash(80,000,000thash) of gpu hashing is alot of GPU's and electric in comparison to asics.

the whole point of an asic is to be an asic. to concentrate all processing on one single task efficiently. the asic farmers also lase factory space in area's where they have cheap renewable electric. because asic farmers want cost efficiency.

the electric debate has ben myth busted ages ago. electric is not a debate that needs to keep returning because the problem thats been presented has already been solved

This is the upcoming technology for electrical power generation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power
https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottsnowden/2019/03/12/solar-power-stations-in-space-could-supply-the-world-with-limitless-energy/

So, in the future, electricity consumes at bitcoin generation won't be emitted any harmful constituents to the environment.

Actually no!

The circumference of the earth is 40075 km, the card is 8.5 cm, so that would make around 470 millions cards to do one lap.


Let's see you're comparing 149 million cards as a starting point with what?
13 million addresses in the chain with a balance of more than 10$? And that is global!
Let's compare the power consumption of all the bank in the world that serve billions with what? 400k transaction a day?


Of course, let's not count bitcoin atms, those are running on unicorns.


Coinbase has a nice office, binance also, so does bitstamp.
Oh wait, do they have servers and datacenters of their own? Oh wait, those run on carebears! Sorry!

That's what we really should be comparing Bitcoin's power usage too, because Bitcoin at the current state is nowhere near as efficient as banks. They have billions of clients while Bitcoin's user base is in 7-figure range. It's better to compare Bitcoin to unnecessary luxury, like those cruise liners that create more pollution than millions of cars. Bitcoin's footprint is rather small compared to many other things, and if someone uses it as an argument against Bitcoin, their are either misinformed, or don't argue in good faith because they are strongly biased against Bitcoin in the first place.

You noticed that I gave statistics of 2014, because I have no updated statistics and the statistics was mostly for the US..... so take that with more updated statistics and extrapolate it to a global number with all the cards that has ever been manufactured and then let's travel around the globe with that.  ::)

Ok, let's also subtract the +/- 4,000 bitcoin ATMs <Source : https://news.bitcoin.com/bitcoin-atms-continue-to-spread-across-the-globe/ > from the approximately 3 million ATM units globally and see how strong your argument is.  ::)  < Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automated_teller_machine >  - We not even counting the millions of card readers merchants use globally to read those credit cards.  ::)

There are currently only +/- 130 Bitcoin Exchanges in the World, compared to the 100 000s of Bank branches globally. "The US has slightly less than 8,000 banks/credit unions. For the rest of the world, you could estimate it by averaging 30 banks/credit unions per country, so for 220 countries/territories, that would be 6,600. So one could assume the figure would hover close to 14,600 +/- 1500 banks worldwide."  - <Notice it says Banks, not Bank branches>  ;)

Source : https://www.quora.com/How-many-bitcoin-exchanges-are-there-in-the-world

Source : https://www.quora.com/How-many-banks-are-there-in-the-world-1

Some more interresting statistics :

The Agricultural Bank of China is the world’s largest Bank by a total number of employees, main office situated in Beijing in China and founded in 1951. This Bank has 441,144 employees, it has over 24,000 branches.  :o

Source : https://www.worldlistmania.com/largest-banks-world/

Let's not compare Bitcoin with it's competition, because there is no argument that they are wasting less energy and contribute less pollution than Bitcoin.  ::)

Greed blinds you, you are impacting the planet negatively for your own gains (just like the real miners pouring Mercury into mountains and destroying many natural habits for a bit of gold)

Easy to point fingers at other people doing bad things, instead of admitting the truth about your own flaws.
"making others look bad, does not make you look good" This is not American Politics, this is our EARTH.

So let`s look at bitcoin and now and not point fingers at what we already all agree is a complete waste of power 2x (the $lave money) / (Us the peoples power) "YES IT IS SHIT COMPARED TO BITCOIN THE FIAT IN ALL ASPECTS"

But on with Bitcoin
Bitcoin uses more power than Ireland at the moment and increasing, according to this newer article (granted it`s been pretty stable atm, It will go up more when the price goes up)
https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/4/20682109/bitcoin-energy-consumption-annual-calculation-cambridge-index-cbeci-country-comparison
more power than Switzerland.

Anyways, even if the power is renewable power *which is great!*, It could be used for something more important like food production, or back up shelter productions for the general public rather doing random math equations.

But the fact is most people do not know: Wind and Solar, in order to create the wind turbine or the solar panels, you actually create more Co2 Emissions than if you were just to burn the traditional fossil fuels, than you will ever get back from creating the parts to make the "renewable energy" In fact you actually escalate the CO2 emissions at a ALARMING RATE.

Look into water, for that is the answer for the next 100 years, it also keeps the sea levels in check, When I was 13 I had my lawn mower running on water, by splitting the atoms of h20 and burning clean hydrogen which left extra oxygen in the atmosphere which we will need to terraform mars.  

So you make more oxygen, You keep sea levels in check, and you don`t create on CO2 emissions splitting the atoms of h20 like when building the solar panels or wind turbines. It is a triple win.

No I don`t think fiat is better, I know it is worse 100x, but I can still see that using more power than Ireland or Switzerland to "secure" a network, when there is other algorithms now that can do the same thing and do what the bitcoin does on a phone or two.

So it`s not a sarcastic "Yea right!!!"
It is right.   Bitcoin is wasting electricity and is harmful to the environment

I know you don`t want to admit it, I don`t want to either, I love bitcoin but
That is the truth.

This man knew it 10 years ago https://twitter.com/halfin/status/1153096538\
Life Inside a Secret Chinese Bitcoin Mine https://youtu.be/K8kua5B5K3I?t=285 "The rest can only be used as treated as waste material" Hazardous waste material.

No, actually let's compare it, let's not be mindless zealots that would sacrifice our own daughters if Satoshi would come back and say so.

You're comparing the whole banking section that serves billions with the current network.

But let's compare the bitcoin network with something its own size, it consumes more power than Austria, more than 8 million people doing shopping watching tv playing games runnign air conditioners and making millions of transactions a day. It consumes more power than 8 million need to live just so 400k can transact a day and 13 million can have their coin safe.

If you want to compare it to the whole banking sector of the world do it when it will reach that size and the same user amount, and by that time a coin would probably be 1 million $ and miners would spend more than 100 times what they do now.

There must be something that can be done to fix POW, not POS (I hate that system) but it's clear that there room for improvement and something must be done.
I do understand this f** energy is spent with a purpose, but at some point, you have to wonder if it's really necessary to put 100inch steel doors worth 20 millions$ to protect a cookie jar.

People have already debunked the popular myth that Bitcoin is using more power than Ireland and there is a detailed explanation and debate on this forum about that. <I will look for the thread and then quote it here.>  ::)  - https://news.bitcoin.com/mainstream-media-claims-bitcoin-burns-more-energy-than-ireland-does-it/

It is good that you mentioned "water" in your argument, because I mentioned this ...." The Agricultural Bank of China is the world’s largest Bank by a total number of employees, main office situated in Beijing in China and founded in 1951. This Bank has 441,144 employees, it has over 24,000 branches." Source : https://www.worldlistmania.com/largest-banks-world/ in a previous post and you can think how much water is used by 441,144 employees on a daily basis. <Dig deeper into the source for more astonishing statistics>  ::)

Most Bitcoin mining farms do not have more than 10 people working on site.  ;)

Technology is evolving and what we have to do is seek to improve mining, look for a way to continue being decentralized, but without consuming too much electricity and polluting the environment. We can't make comparisons with others. we have to improve ourselves. In my country the cost of electricity is very high, imagine if the cost of electricity was ever too high in all country? What will mining look like? these are things that we have to think about improving in the future

The Internet also spends electricity, but you continue to use it

Yes , Bitcoin is wasting electricity.

Bitcoin is raising electricity rates for people on the same power grid,
that have absolutely nothing to fucking do with bitcoin.

Bitcoin is drawing electricity at an ever increasing rate, due to the winner take all failure in design of Proof of work.

All other financial institutions draw power at a fairly stable rate , considering it taken them over 100 years to reach there current power drain.

Bitcoin current draw would be acceptable if it was stopping here or only growing at less than 5% per year.
It is growing much faster than that and for what a pathetic less than 2 million onchain transactions per day.

The whole point to the energy waste is the high amount used is supposed to secure the network.
That myth is busted , since miners foolishly give a mere 4 mining pool operators over 51% control on a daily basis,
meaning no matter how much energy wasted , you're trusting 4 guys not to collude and bring the whole bitcoin network crashing down.

The facts are,  I can run a PoS network with each node using less electricity than an xbox.
That PoS network can easily exceed 10 million onchain transactions per day,
As long as their are 12 majority stakers, then it is 3X more secure than bitcoin,
it won't raise electricity rates on people having nothing to do with it,
it is not detectable by energy usage,
it can be run off of laptops,
it can change locations everyday.

Want to pretend like bitcoin energy waste is ok,
your delusion , enjoy yourself,
but it's causing miners to go bankrupt,
security danger increasing because you can't hide that power drain of a warehouse full of asics,
neighbors will complain to the utility as bitcoin raises their own electricity rates,
as bitcoin rewards end, transactions fees will have to grow exponentially trying to keep up.

Just because the black smoke coming from your car's tailpipe does not bother you,
don't think you're not pissing off the person behind you.
And it is only a matter of time before they do something about it. ;)
  
 

 

powr consumption is easy to estimate

75exahash

antminer s17pro = 56terra 2.5kw
antminer s9 = 14terra 1.4kw

75,000,000terrahash / 56=1,339,286 s17pro asics online
75,000,000terrahash / 14=5,357,143 s9 asics online

1.3m s17 * 2.5=3,375,000kwh
3.3gwh *24*365=29565000000kwh/year
29.565twh/year

5.3m s9 * 1.4=7,500,000kwh
7.5ghw *24*365=65,700,000,000kwh/year
65.7twh/year

so between the most efficient current range and what is deemed the least efficient the electric use is between 29.5-65.7
but here is the snag..
the asics have not been hashing away at a constant 75exahash network rate for the last 365 days. so infact the electric usage would be lower as the hashrate has been lower before todays stats


seems university of cambridge wants to stick with the least efficient asics and using the highest hashrate as a constant
when they say it compares to switzerland

however the most efficient asics have been out for months hashrates have ben lower so ill stick to a tw/y of ~30 rather than ~60

The fact that most ASICS lifespan is less than 2 years before they are just paperweights ,
is also an incredibly wasteful event.  :P

Ignoring flesh eating disease or bitcoin energy waste, in time they both consume the host.
 :)

FYI: https://www.inverse.com/article/57389-bitcoin-mining-s-incredible-energy-waste-has-been-captured-in-new-research
Banks .4 kilowatt per transaction
verses
Bitcoin 491 to 765 kilowatt per transaction
(Proof of Waste)

1. making bitcoin go to PoS is like making gold become available in everyons backyard as long as they have a spoon and a coffee filter.
imagine if gold could be mined for free.. the value of gold would drop. dont you realise yet the reason bitcoin/gold is so highly priced is because its expensive to attain.

2. mining farms do not even consume electric from the same 'consumer market' as residents. infact power grids make excess electric to cover occasional power demand spikes. and its this excess that usually goes to waste and unpaid, which mining farms do contracts for.
if you didnt realise power grids have multiple markets. residential, industrial and others. so please understand the bitcoin mining does not even touch the residential market.

3. i think all those crying about bitcoin mining costs are those lonely hobbyists that have just 1 or 2 asics and are not 'getting rich' purely because they have to pay thir parents/landlords electric bill. i think its these hobbyists that should find their own efficiencies rather than blaming the entire bitcoin mining community.
yes i get it, hobbyists want PoS so that they can 'get rich' without any costs.. we all understand it. but sorry bitcoin aint free


the fact that mist asic miners make profit if they are smart enough to be efficient. means they made returns on initial investment by using what you describe as the eventual bitcoin paperweight.. and then
yep and then.. they sell the bitcoin paperweight for less than its purchase price to the altcoin community o they can use it as altcoin miners. thus getting even more return on original investment

must you forget a few things
1. bank transactions are only part of the overal flow of fiat. think about it.
people that use applepay(users own phone uses battery) which communicates to
applepays datacentre(uses electric) which then communicates its transaction to
visa/mastercards datacentre(uses electric) which then.. yep then communicates to
banks

2. a bitcoin transaction can contain many outputs (many destination/payments)

It's not really a strong point when they give electricity consumption on bitcoin as an argument. Here in modern days, everyone uses technology and electricity. It becomes a 'need' to people. And there are a lot more factors that consumes bigger electricity than bitcoin. I think every innovation to make people's life easier, has a negative impact on the environment. It harms the environment.

Everywhere you go, most of the things you do, has to do with consuming electricity. Even though you don't use bitcoin nor mine bitcoin, you still consume a lot of electricity. So to those people who use it as an argument, don't act as if you don't waste electricity.

Do you want a truly decentralized network.
All you do is make the inflation rate extremely low rewards,
this ends the free nonsense, as the coins purchased to stake do compete and are an expense.
This also presents the opportunity for Low fixed transaction fees , something a PoW network can never achieve once ASICS are involved.


Hate to break it to you, we are all on the earth and all pulling from it's limited natural resources.

There is no get rich without any cost nonsense in Proof of Stake,
Staking coins with too high an inflation rate price will collapse,
only extremely low inflation rate PoS coins are sustainable in the long run and their rates won't make you rich.
The only way you can get rich with them is as their utility grows so too will their price per coin.
(More useful as a real Currency than a bitcoin boom and bust scenario.)


FYI:
PoW network requires millions per month once ASICS take over to maintain their network.
PoS network requires less than $1000 per month to maintain it's network,
while exceeding the transactions capacity and an energy footprint that would not even be noticed.
That is as evolutionary improvement.
Staying on the PoW path is eventually going to run everyone using it off a cliff.
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/business-risk-management-sales-marketing-strategy-group-businessmen-people-running-like-lemmings-off-cliff-abstract-89778666.jpg

1. bitcoin has no inflation rate. its deflationary
2. PoS is not a cost. you lock coin up. get new coin cos of it. and then get to tak the original locked coin back later.
3. PoS is already failing the 'decentralised' debate as people are already syndicating/pooling their stakes into large lumps to share out rewards
4. and before you get started on any other proof of method that could be decentralised. sooner or later groups will find a way to game the system by multiplying the resources needed to gain the upper hand
5. bitcoin still uses less electric than pepsi does for all its refrigerators, so take your energy waste debate over to pepsi

      Using of electricity will be good for other business like electrical plant  and not wasting but with regards to the hazards of environment , will make sense and it should be resolve as soon as possible to save our mother earth .

Bitcoin makes additional coins per day , therefore it is inflationary.
It's rewards decrease over time, but it is still inflation until the rewards end completely.

Only a coin that burns more coins than it produces is truly deflationary.
(Such as a PoS coin that burns more in transaction fees than it generates in staking rewards.)

With PoS , you don't have to pool, it is optional, making decentralization possible.
(PoS is a cooperative network , while PoW is a combative winner take all network.)

With PoW, you have to pool to survive, making decentralization impossible.
(Due to ASICS and PoW Energy wasteful input costs.)

Pepsi has a greater utility than bitcoin, and is not using exponentially more energy per year.
I think that is the part you really like to ignore, bitcoin is exponentially wasting more energy yearly , Pepsi is not.

If I am not wrong, Bitcoin mining consumes less than 1% of the total electricity generation in the world. And is not like these mining farms are getting electricity for free. They are paying a rate, which is much higher than the cost of production. And there is no point in saying that Bitcoin mining is wasting electricity. Because in those countries where the largest farms are located, there is surplus electricity production.

And the argument that Bitcoin mining is harmful to the environment also holds no truth. The miners are ready to use environmentally clean forms of electricity, such as solar energy and nuclear energy. But it is up to the government to provide the power. The miners are compelled to use whatever electric supply the authorities provide.

pepsi has greater utility??
seriously... hang on a second i just need to laugh

do you even know where the pepsi liquid ends up just 6 hours after consumption....... in a toilet bowl
do you even know where the pepsi plastic bottle ends up just minutes after consumption....... in a trash can

nxt time you flush your toilet ask yourself, is the toilet a ledger that keeps the contents allowing it to be exchanged between people.

i really do understand your infuriation about not being able to mine as its costs are way above your abilities. but please dont try taking your personal circumstance to try make bitcoin become just as crappy and underlying valueless as altcoins

again. imagine if gold could be attained from anyones back garden using only a spoon and a coffee filter. the price of gold would not be $1k+ but instead less than a dollar. as no one would buy it for more than a dollar if they can get it virtually free themselves.
same goes for PoS. it has no cost. its only "value" is the speculation of utility

How many people drink pepsi,
how many people use bitcoin?

Now get a clue to which has more global usage / mass adoption / greater utility of purpose.  :)

Funny it is always the PoW guys claiming PoS has no costs,
maybe if you used one, you realize their are cost of coins & costs of nodes & developers & block explorers.
But having a $1000 monthly maintenance PoS network outperform $millions dollars monthly maintenance PoW network just blows your mind.
Which is why PoS network can have LOW FIXED transaction fees and your PoW network has to have Larger Variable Transaction Fees.

Now drink your pepsi before it gets warm.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSSNTu9kli5CPbhso_9abSvhnNthbXnmnhtCNmD5uyDfkXELW0o0g


FYI:
A PoS coin price would be a result of speculation and utility usage as a currency, while factoring in quantity of coins.
Bitcoin will never convert to PoS, it will just fade away from public use as only elites can afford it,  
while the rest of the world choose coins that are affordable and allow them to take part in governance of said network.
 
In bitcoin , you have a get rich scheme, pump & dump, with ever increasing energy waste driving up a manipulated market price.
Get rich scheme, then bitcoin is your huckleberry. (Like all merry go rounds, sooner or later the musics is over and that is the end.)

But if you actually wanting a virtual worldwide currency that is for the masses and sustainable and maintainable at reasonable levels,
then that can only be a Proof of Stake network.

 

This is a very short but accurate answer. I always say this to people who attack bitcoin saying it's bad for the environment. Electricity is being produced anyway and in most parts of the world there are no shortages.

The rivers won't stop flowing all of a sudden and water dams won't disappear because of some mining farms. They were there before Bitcoin and they will be there if miners go bankrupt. Stop mining and all this electricity will go to waste.

It's such a non argument. An example of that are the countless datacenters corporations such as Microsoft and Amazon operate. These consume way more electricity than Bitcoin, but nobody complains about them.

Nocoiners complain about Bitcoin's electricity consumption because they don't like it and think it has no value. If people think something has no value then it's by default a waste of electricity.

Back in the early internet days people were skeptical about the environmental impact of tech companies too, but now they somewhat depend on them, their electricity consumption is no longer an issue. 

Yes, but the purpose of this debate is to open people's eyes to the "hidden" pollution that are not talked about, when they target Bitcoin for their "wasteful" use of electricity and how harmful some aspects of other payment options are to the environment.
[/qoute]

Bitcoin mining and other bitcoin transactions need to.use electeicity is part of the growing improvement of the new tenhnology.
I think as long as bitcoin continue to exist and improve itsel how gain in the market isn't waste using electricity.
As many opinion not only bitcoin use a lot of electricity comsuption eve the multi national company use electricity. And i don't think bitcoin mining destroy the inviroment than the plastic manufacturing.

Hilariously i have 3 or 4 VISA/MC (still "valid") that could in theory not spend more than 1 satoshi (one is "Gold" lol), and now my entire country has to toss them, because Trump ordered American companies to leave so by the end of 2019 both companies will cease to operate here.

This obsolete method of payment should just go away. We are heavily dependent on debit cards, also operated by both American companies. Who knows what they will do at the end of the year, my guess is that they will bring the only non American debit/credit card company, Chinese UnionPay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_UnionPay).

There is little and not enough banknotes, and they are too small to buy things anyway. Hyperinflation renders them useless in mere months. So you can add to the pollution the actual printing of bank notes.

Agreed, Google says it spends about 0.0003 kWh of energy on an average search query. The US data centers use more than 90 billion kilowatt-hour of electricity a year. Source : www.forbes.com and this requires roughly 34 giant (500-megawatt) coal-powered plants. Global data centers used about 416 terawatts <3% of the global power supply> in one year and this is 40% more than the entire United Kingdom.   ::)

So if Bitcoin mining use 1% of the global supply and it supposedly equals the yearly use of Irelands power consumption, then we still have some way to go before we reach the 3% that data centers use.  ;D

Would that carbon foot print be the same when bitcoin becomes a mainstream currency?

In part it is right but not completely. I heard histories  how neighbors pleaded not to mine cryptocurrencies on villages because there was a negative effect for all who were also using electricity at that moment. It is checked out. There is no secret that any power electricity consumers reduce common voltage. Anybody can easily check it out with a voltmeter. Formerly minnig was much more cheaper than now and there is no a person, an organization to whom you can complain. Anyway I think  it is better to focus an own attention on investing.

I haven't seen any devastating effects of Bitcoin mining towards environment so far but yeah, in some instances, I agree to @franky1 that hobbyists are those who want BTC to go PoS in order to pack their bags (but I guess they won't even be able to do that as well) and earn on interest, but then the whole mining scheme of BTC would get into a dilemma as all those big wallets holding lots of BTC would need not to do anything but just lock it there alone and earn compounding interest over that. Those who mine with 1 or 2 or even 5 ASICs need to understand that if they try to use solar energy, it'd save a lot while consuming less artificial electricity compared to naturally generated electricity, not only would that save these guys a lot of electricity but this will promote more money making and less power consumption as well as least pollution.

Exactly! People are always quick to make and analyze Bitcoin without looking around for other services that are the real consumers of electricity in the world. The mining of Bitcoin uses lesser electricity compared to companies that uses electricity in the production of their major products. Not to talk about credit card and master card companies, recycling companies and oil & gas companies uses a huge amount of electricity in their production compared to bitcoin mining. The electricity used for Bitcoin mining should be least of our concern in terms of electricity usage. These people saying bitcoin is wasting electricity are just haters of it.

Yes, there are miners that are utilizing solar energy, meaning it contributes fewer greenhouse gases. Also, there is a mining farm setting up near a natural power source or grid. Though we can't avoid some miners for using electricity from polluting sources but yeah it is just a small percentage.

whoever consumes higher electricity the point is did the electricity being used in rightful way?because its not matter how much we are spending but the thing is this.

mining consumes but its profitable and can generate another form of energy,i have seen some videos that the heat came from mining rigs can be used as heater in cold countries so is this renewable?

but the topic is so true and i totally agree on this.

of course it does matter  . it does makes sense to use electricity on  the right stuffs  . mining costs alot of electricity which is not worth it at all if done on a country that has an expensive electric billing  because you will only end up paying more and not getting enough profit  .

bitcoin is not wasting any electricity but the people are the ones that use or do things that makes it consume electricity like when they mine a coin or use thier gadgets to access thier wallet and trading accounts . thier use can be dependent if it will harm the environment or not .

It takes a warehouse full of miners now to turn a true profit on the minting of Bitcoin and other proof of work based cryptocurrencies. It's becoming way too costly and mining the traditional way will eventual become obsolete, taking a back seat to consensus algorithms like "Delegated Proof of Stake".
  Mining was an excellent proof of concept for Satoshi to implement in order to demonstrate the mechanics of Blockchain & Bitcoin.

That type of blame is just like bullshit, When the president of the USA declared that There is no issue of environmental purpose, he doesn't believe that climate is being changed day by day due to heavy use of our vehicle and industry, Not only that but also we are producing a lot of polluting element to the environment everyday, so how they could consider that the activities of Bitcoin are harmful to the environment. Very silly, I think the thing should be reversed, Bitcoin doesn't waste any electricity in comparison to other economic activities, for me, Bitcoin and Blockchain relatively user-friendly and less harmful to the environment.

The process of harming the environment began a few decades ago, long before the advent of bitcoin.  Today, global warming will bring a lot more problems than we could expect and all because of the greenhouse effect.  It would be better if we thought about harmful emissions into the environment from industrial plants and cars, rather than looking for reasons to defame cryptocurrency.

The issue of plastic along with other hazardous material and electricity need to be addressed in both Crypto and banking system. Climate change measures must be implemented on emergency basis before it gets too late. Clean electricity (electricity from water, wind) is the solution to avoid climate change.

Also, don't forget about the problem with dumping plastic cards and other plastic items, it's very hard to degrade (unlike other items like fruit, wood, natural stuff), which slowly become mush and sink into the ground, plastic stays for centuries and ruins the Earth.

To be honest, bitcoin mining does have a pretty shitty effect on the world, but your looking at a single, tiny chunk that is chipping away at the world, there are a lot of other bigger fish out there and it just looks like you have a bone to pick when your talking about BTC "pollution".

Yes, rather than describing bitcoin as the cause for the global disaster happening through mining and other emissions. Decades back itself there were emissions that has caused global climate change. The same has been now getting more and more importance with emerging nature enthusiasts talking about environmental safety.

Now using it a chance some has begun to defame the cryptocurrency as a threat to the global climate change. This is completely a political play, hope the cryptocurrency network will go green with advancement supporting green energy production for mining which is the heart of the entire cryptocurrency network to function flawless.

It's true, we began ti destroy this planet long time ago. That stil doesn't mean that only older generations and old technologies are to blame. New technologies and cryptocurrencies also harm the environment, we have to face that, although not in.such big extend as some other human activities. But that doesn't mean we don't have to try to find better solutions when it comes to electricity and emissions that are connected to cryptocurrencies.

climate change and carbon are not directly linked. the science studies selectively choose to not include water vapour in the atmosphere numbers.
its actually water that cools the planet more and lack of water on land that causes it to heat more

rain forests are called rainforests for a reason.. its in the name. its not called carbon forests
with drainage waterpipes, guttering, concreting over land and ripping up forests and fields its the lack of moisture retained in land that then cant evaporate to cool the air. thus causes temperature rises

studies show that carbon is just 0.04% of the atmosphere. and was 0.03% century ago,
if 2^oc is caused by a 0.01% change. then how come other planets with 95% carbon are not 19,000^oc

if carbon is such a big impact then how come plants survival rate depends on a carbon content of 0.03% to 0.2% thus if w went below industrial era levels just 0.01% back, plants would suffer. but we can go up 16x changes of 0.01% and plants actually thrive

by the way even if we tried to go 100% carbon free. by filtering every bit of air in the atmosphere the atmosphere would not show as 0%

yes we are closer to doing more harm to wildlife by removing carbon than by increasing carbon.
i say this because carbons temperature impact is not a thing. but carbons impact to human and wildlife is.

so dont try bring carbon into the 'climate change' debate but into just the 'life debate' of animal lungs and photosynthesis. as they two separate 'environmental' subjects

climate is about water vapour % not carbon %. sorry, but it just is

You are really digging into something about the disadvantages of the two and I hate to say that cards are really something that can harm the environment compared to bitcoin that we are only using the electricity to mine them and few powerful rigs.

If crypto currencies will become the man currency then all the cards will be set aside and we can lessen the pollution that it can bring to our society.

Maybe one of the things we could all do is start by calling it a climate crisis, so that it's not just change (which happens naturally every century anyway).

I think Bitcoin mining is energy intensive, and yes we could do better with campaigning for miners to also try be carbon neutral, but at least mining provides a lot of benefits. Security, being number 1! I wouldn't want to use a shitcoin that doesn't protect me from 51% like BTC does.

It is only countries that does not know how to control the emission of carbon in their country that are very much concerned about bitcoin being a disaster, for countries like china and the United states, they already have the things that they do to curtail this and in curtailing this does not mean that they will stop every technology that has such emission of carbon, but they have the gadgets that will be out in place to reduce the manner and way that they are being exposed to the atmosphere.

When it comes to electricity, countries like china has a very strong electricity and a very cheap one that no matter how heavy the machine in mining bitcoin is, they might never feel the effect of it on their power system, so we should stop complaining of bitcoin consuming power but countries should be the one to expand more in what they generate.

Alright I think its a little unfair to bitcoin,the planet has always been in a bad shape for as long as anyone can even remember,yea bitcoin in its operation kinda contributes too,but it definitely isn't to blame

Humanity was polluting the environment even before bitcoin came in. They blame bitcoin mining because it uses electricity but even ordinary hardware appliances uses eletric power that is on 24/7 like for example aircon that is in corporation. We're all contributing to the earth's destruction and btc mining is not only to blame here. If they want to blame something blame it to electric fossils or blame the one who discovered it.

Basically even them creating technologies that only utilizes electricity such as electric cars, motors, etc are also contributing to the pollution to the environment because in the first place where does this technology get their electricity? From coals burning to power the city. So, there's no excuse if bitcoin mining might have impacted the world but what if they use bitcoin and see the benefits of it? They always blame they don't even know what bitcoin is capable of.

OP is talking about justifying bitcoin mining process by comparing how traditional banking system is awfully destroying green environments but I feel bitcoin's mining process must need a revolution in terms of ecological friendly yet without compromising its security part. POS was a long discussing one to replace the current system but that is not going to happen in my understanding.

Then what are the possible solution against bitcoin mining's environmental issues?
Wasting electricity is not an aspect here but how much heat it will be producing. Because, individuals or separate organisation will bear the cost of electricity and may compensate that with mining rewards. When ASIC companies start following emission control like standards for heat producing then there are possibilities for new level of ASICs to be invented.

This must be an essential thing bitcoin enthusiastic or at least governments must work on regulating mining related things so that in long run we may not harm our beloved nature on our part.

Bitcoin mining industry may grow in million times from what we are having today in coming years hence producing heat due to bitcoin mining may turn as a ecological problem in some perspective unless otherwise mining equipment manufacturing companies will not work on their heat emitting levels.

Electricity produced from non renewable source itself is harmful to the environment. If bitcoin wont use it some other thing will consume it. The problem not is bitocin but electricity production from non renewable sources.

Proof of Work's real/true potential , as used in Bitcoin, I believe, has not been fully understood yet. What was termed "wasteful", could be Bitcoin's greatest breakthrough.

Thanks Adam Back for the invention of HashCash. 8)


https://medium.com/macro-narratives-in-blockchain/tokenization-of-energy-crypto-mining-proof-of-work-the-reinvention-of-energy-financial-markets-2230866f32ed

Now mankind is massively switching to the use of solar panels, wind farms and other renewable energy sources. Their production and use is becoming cheaper. Therefore, the use of electricity for the extraction of bitcoins and other types of cryptocurrency cannot be a real problem. When mining cryptocurrencies, heat is generated that can be used to warm homes and for other people’s benefits. The problem of environmental pollution during cryptocurrency mining is completely contrived. This is no more harmful than ordinary production.

There was a study/analysis about Germany's love, and investment on renewable energy, and that it actually made electricity production more expensive.

Plus all the debates on the "wastefulness" of POW, especially in Bitcoin, is debatable. Energy tokenization, separation of money and state, and more topics will come to show that it's the real breakthrough in the invention of cryptocurrencies.

Using renewable energy not only reduces environmental damage, but also reduces the cost of mining. Therefore, mining companies are now interested in switching to renewable energy sources. So the theory about the harm of mining on the environment is considered incorrect.

It's honestly one of the more desperate measures that people take in order to slander BTC.

Any rational human being would look at this and say that BTC has no further bad impacts on the environment compared to something like traditional banking institutions. They seem to forget that these banking institutions use up just as much if not more power (and physical space) as decentralized networks like BTC.

It's laughable. Wasn't there even a news article about how BTC is essentially just using up excess energy on the grid anyway?

Indeed, the reality of mining bitcoin requires large amounts of electricity, therefore some parties accuse bitcoin as a destroyer environment.
In my opinion, those who think like that must be the haters of bitcoin, who are trying to destroy the popularity of bitcoin.But this will be
very interesting compared to what the bank has done so far, so I am very happy with it the explanation in the opening post is that banks are
more damaging to the environment by producing payment cards that use destructive plastic raw materials environment. With this it's clear
which one is more damaging to the environment, therefore I as a supporter of bitcoin feel surprised if it still exists who accused bitcoin as an
environmental destroyer.

I think today we are dependent with electricity. The businesses cannot proceed without electricity. Even without bitcoin we had already using electricity. Bitcoin is just part of our daily tasks and duties but basically we are using it more than what we consume from bitcoin transactions. Even with our daily household chores and comodities we are utilizing it. We must not blame it to bitcoin. If we want to conserve, we must start it within out household and to the offices we work at.

I don't necessarily agree with these arguments, which claim that Bitcoin mining is harmful to the environment. But at the same time, we may need to seriously think about shifting from a PoW mining algorothm to a PoS algo. Even now, a lot of money is being spent on expensive chips and graphic cards, on top of huge amounts of electricity. Why should we continue with this system, when we have a better alternative (PoS)?

Haters say much against Bitcoin, but the objection of wastage of energy against Bitcoin is very absurd. The comparison you have drawn between banking system and this digital technology is great. It has clearly shown that digital currency offers you more benefits with less disadvantages, on the other hand banking system is more involved in damaging environment and it also offers less benefits. If still people talk against about Bitcoin, they are just talking useless.

Yes I agree that It's nothing compared to other payment method, the data that you've posted on the OP only in a one country, how about the rest of the world? Paper usage, electricity for the ATM machine, etc. Well bitcoin is nothing, it might bring impact to the enviroment but I think not too much, it doesn't need paper, plastic card, ATM machine, etc. We're only use electricity where we have an alternative such as renewable energy.

Bitcoin mining is wasting electricity? How? I thought every miners pay their electricity bills when mining bitcoin? When calculating your income the most part of it goes to electricity bill, any bitcoin miners on here should correct me if i'm wrong unless they are mining illegally which can get them arrested

It's true that bitcoin's mining requires a large amount of electricity, but that doesn't mean it's affecting the environment. I mean people can also use clean energy to produce electricity and then mining bitcoin. As you said people who are saying that bitcoin is a waste of electricity are just dumb or they hate bitcoin. Electricity will be wasted only if you're using it without any profit and in the mining cause you're earning bitcoin through it, so that doesn't make sense.

No it doesn't "requires it". People mine because its profitable for them. In this lies the solution, it won't always be profitable, as time passes it is less so. So all you have to do is wait and the market solves the issue by itself.

Electricity is not free, especially the non-renewable ones. The renewable ones have install costs but at least don't need fuel periodically added to it, just some maintenance depending on type.

PoW is working fine the way it is and the mining is ending as it has performed its duty already. Most bitcoins have already been made, the reminder are a progressively less and less to the point of absolute crawl in the year 2140. You already know 18m bitcoins were made, what is left to mine are the ever diminishing leftovers that won't justify investment in large facilities anymore.

The time for Bitcoin mining is coming to an end, and then you won't be able to accuse it anymore. And there was no need to do anything, it was done since the beginning in the design.

Even solar panels are not 100% environmentally friendly. Harmful chemicals are used during manufacturing of solar panels. The same is the case with all those mining rigs and graphics cards. And also, the electricity currently used for Bitcoin mining can be rather used for providing power to hundreds of millions of people, who are without it as of now. I am not a big supporter of the PoW mining. It makes Bitcoin vulnerable, as a 51% attack can be executed if you have enough processing power for a few hours.

Then it can then be debated that modern technology is harming the environment.


But where is the "waste". It generates tokens as incentives, distributes stateless money for the public, achieves distributed consensus. Christmas lights are wasteful. Stop Christmas.


Bitcoin has reached a level that it's more profitable for bad actors to be honest because the risks/costs are too high.

Plus, https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=4391393.0

Are you sure of that? You can DYOR, but about 90% of the world's fiat money is digital. Plus for the 10% in paper money, you want everyone to account for them by hand to save electricity? 8)

This statement is completely flawed. In a cash <Fiat> transaction, a lot of things must happen to complete that transaction. Let's start at the beginning :

1. The coins & notes must be manufactured. <melting Copper/Zinc/nickel takes a lot of electricity and the same for paper & plastic>
2. Those coins & notes must be kept secure in a fortified building with lots of CCTV/gates/office/safes etc.
3. The coins & notes must be transferred to Banks <consuming fuel>
4. The Banks place the notes in vaults and then in ATM's that runs 24/7 on electricity.
5. People withdraw the cash and pay for goods & services at a merchant that use electronic cash registers .
6. The merchants deposit the cash back into the Bank or armored cars fetch the cash from the larger merchants & retailers. <fuel>
7. The Banks use devices to coin coins and cash, using more electricity.
8. Damaged or old coins and paper money eventually are destroyed. <burnt or melted down, causing pollution & using electricity> 

Can you now see the much bigger impact of Fiat currencies on electricity and pollution?

Wrong again. Once all bitcoins are mined, mining will not stop. The Bitcoin protocol is written in such a way that when the Block reward expire, miners will compete for the miners fees and if transactions increase, the miners fees will be more than the Block reward.

There will always be some kind of incentive for people to fire up their miners, because without miners there cannot be any mining. We also hope that the scarcity and demand for bitcoins will increase, so that the price of bitcoins would skyrocket and that the miners fees would be enough to sustain the motivation to keep on mining.

The Lightning Network will also be a source of income for people who will host the Lightning Network hubs.  ;)  Sidechains like the Lightning Network will have a huge impact on miners in the future.  ::)

Both bitcoin and banks are harmful to the environment but those bank card are more harmful and not good to our health if it will be burned. Bitcoin mining has an adverse impact on the environment specially the rapidly increasing use of fossil fuels for Bitcoin mining and transactions but bank cards are made of PVC plastic which is more harmful compared to bitcoin which is digital and only use electricity and energy. I think everything that can be used by the people had a bad effects to the environment specially now that we are using modern technology.