Bitcoin Forum

I'm not holding my breath, so would be pleasantly surprised if approved.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/07/on-bitcoin-etf-approval-closer-than-weve-ever-been-says-bitwise.html

Today, I'm closer than I've ever been to my 100th birthday.  Doesn't mean it's going to happen any time soon, though.    ::)

It's only going to be a "very exciting week" for the people buying the hype.  Still not expecting to see an ETF approved for at least another year or two (and would be happy if it took far longer than that).

Well, not unless you are already 98 years old and is the oldest breathing member of this forum. The way I am seeing it now, the hypes and exaggerations surrounding ETFs have already died that is why the Bitcoin community has already stopped thinking too much about the possibility and the resulting positive influence of the existence of ETF on the market. This can especially be true with what recently happened with the Bakkt futures.

I am predicting that the SEC will be deciding not in favor for now with the creation of the ETF as proposed by Bitwise Investments for many reasons and the number one concern with that decision is that we are still in the same situation as before when we talk about regulations and the establishment of safety nets for the customers of the said platform.

Yes, maybe two or three years from now one or two ETF platforms can be doing good business but for now let's just accept that it is nearly impossible to gain its legal and regulatory approval.

Given the recent influx of institutional investors which have significant lobbying power, I wouldn't disagree with these statements.

It's just that at this point, I don't think that anyone is really counting on an ETF to be finally approved apart from the institutions who issue out these ETFs in the first place. We've seen enough rejections and people hyping ETF approvals up in the past that the market has sort of become desensitised to this type of news.

Besides, I'd encourage anyone to think about what ETFs actually bring to the retail users of BTC? Next to nothing, unless you want to diversify your retirement portfolio. It's time to stop placing such unwarranted emphasis on these approvals, imo.

We have been here several times but the ETF always got rejected again and again, we might see the hype in the market until on October 13th, a good thing though, especially for traders. SEC will have another argument of disagreement about why bitcoin ETF can not be accepted yet, volatility and manipulation still the best reasons for them.
However, if it really happens, better to hold btc as much as possible at this point.

The way the SEC looks at Bitcoin is this; pumpy dumpy scheme of $160 billion is looking to enter a $4 trillion ETF market..... No way, at least, not without a proper regulatory framework.

Tether might play a role of importants too as to why the SEC is holding back on an ETF, and I honestly can't blame them. In no shape or form do many institutional players think a Bitcoin ETF would be a welcome addition, unless their bags are filled and they have an incentive to shill an ETF.

The best thing is that we never needed an ETF, and won't be needing it in the future. People just assume they do because they think institutions are forming a queue to enter. Vaneck's Bitcoin "litmited ETF" trust (https://www.vaneck.com/institutional/bitcoin-144a/overview) thus far has ~64BTC in it. If institutions were really that interested, the numbers would mirror that demand.

they're in such an awkward position over this ;D

Overall, Wall Street wants this, because Bitcoin would be better squashed flat, except the realization that it cannot be realistically done has now been and gone.

so it could well be that the time taken over this has more to do with trying to figure out a way to manipulate the ETF yet simultaneously maintain it's credibility. that's not going to be easy with a digital bearer instrument like BTC.

if I was Wall Street, I would:

• hold the ETF as long as possible
• get some programmers into the Bitcoin developer team
• throw as much FUD as possible at BTC in as many ways as possible in the meantime
• accumulate BTC
• wait for some kind of systemic crisis (large or medium sized) to push an extra huge BTC pump
• try for another hard fork to completely switch the developer team, using your planted devs to lead it

watch out for parts 2 and 6 in particular

I wont be surprised if there would be an another delay announcement on October 12. These guys do really love to play on communities feelings when it comes to ETF approval.  :)

I think that some want it badly, but some others (powerful, old school) don't. I guess that there's a lot of ugly politics there too.
Of course, the ones that can, do accumulate without telling (and did that for years).

I hope that the dev team is good enough at watching their back for points 2 and 6. It's not only Wall Street that can try such (evil) tricks.

they are more than expecting it, I should imagine. We have a reasonable suspicion that Mike Hearn, Gavin Andresen and Jeff Garzik (Max "Trojan Donkey" Keiser's favorite) were the first wave of corporate saboteurs, their hard-fork takeover attempts and Bitcoin clones were intended to usurp Bitcoin and failed miserably.

One thing to consider is that not necessarily the new  Bitcoin developers are the saboteur plants, those who want to turn Bitcoin into a nightmare system would be strategically lacking if they'd tried to use up all their ammunition in one attack. But which long term members of the Bitcoin dev team are trying to make it fail is not presently obvious, at least to me (or seemingly anyone else out there), possibly because they're waiting for a good opportunity.

None of this matters that much, there's little difference between a Bitcoin programmer advocating a bad idea for good reasons or bad ones. If we as the users don't have the wisdom to choose good development plans, or choose against bad ones, then we'll get what we deserve.

They have said this a thousand times already. I have seen news about this “deadline” of theirs for Bitcoin ETFs ever since 2018 and the news is always about the deadliest deadline being set and after that date has passed you will see a follow up news that the deadline has been extended to another month or so saying that they need more time on matters like this. So I wouldn't get to happy about this deadline since I have seen this before  and I will only believe it ones it already happens.

squashed flat in terms of price?

what's your take on the age old claims of manipulation in the gold market? commingling/rehypothecation to inflate the paper supply, leveraged shorting schemes to keep a lid on prices, etc. with gold pricing so highly centralized by the london bullion market and comex, it seems conceivable.

do you think that's impossible in the bitcoin market?


well said.....

I meant in the Wiley Coyote way, lol



tough topic.

the trouble is, perhaps the last people we should listen to on this topic are the prominent voices protesting naked-shorting manipulation. If you've seen these people doing their thing over the years, I find the most interesting co-mingling to be when guests talking straight gold price manipulation get mixed together with guests telling me about lizard-people aliens guarding the Vatican. The credible tellers of stories about gold manipulation k-n-o-w, must know, that they're being interviewed alongside people that just suddenly slip in unrelated details that sound like they were taken from the plot of a Marvel comics movie.

To wit, gold market tale-teller Catherine Austin-Spaceships (;D) once spent a half hour talking about trillions of dollars of missing money in US gov departments, then suddenly for no apparent reason, dropped this line:

"...and did you know, there are spaceships fueling up using the rings of Saturn?"

...and went straight back into talking about detailed legislation involving unaccountable US government audit trails ::)


There's a whole bunch of mystics, clairvoyants and tarot card readers who involve themselves in the gold market stories, and it is a psychological trick to put you off or to distract you with nonsense. It's hard to find anyone with apparent credibility that hasn't associated themselves with someone who has none. So, I've heard plenty of stories, but the evidence is thin. Not that there's no evidence, just that there's a big incentive to kick up a massive, multi-layered smokescreen. I mean shit, these people are just lining up to tell you untold secrets about "real" money; when you really stop to think about it, the motivations of the person telling you should be closely scrutinized. Anyone with who knows anything important is probably either too wise, scared or greedy to start talking in public, maybe we'll find out something more concrete when it no longer matters.

Also, this exciting news has already run out of its own hype. The ETF might be approved tomorrow, however, everyone has moved on to the next bitcoin hype. It might not move bitcoin's price anymore.

Sportsbooks should begin offering odds on this hehehe.

Hoping this news are make good news for the long waiting and a lot of reset about the etf approval, the truth is I am not exciting this new set of the date of etf approval. I still believe without etf crypto is still strong but if god wells if the etf are approve by US is better because this can help for the community.

I feel like every time ETF is brought up, we end up with like overhyping it and saying BTC will moon, etc, but the reality is, ETF, being closer then last time is not even that good of news, the last couple of times we got nowhere with ETF and I'm just going to say it'll get rejected again in a week or 2 from now.

It's not going to be much of a deal for regular retail users anyway, but it'll be interesting to see what happens next, I do think Wall Street on a whole does want this to happen though.

Rejected. However, the good news is no one might be caring anymore. Bitcoin is up regardless of this bad news hehehe. The hype behind it, approved or rejected, has clearly gone.



The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) has rejected the latest attempt at creating a bitcoin exchange-traded fund (ETF).

The SEC announced Wednesday that the ETF proposal, filed by Bitwise Asset Management in conjunction with NYSE Arca, did not meet legal requirements to prevent market manipulation or other illicit activities. The SEC placed the burden on NYSE Arca, rather than Bitwise’s proposal itself.

To date, the SEC has rejected all bitcoin ETF proposals, citing market manipulation and fraudulent activity concerns.

Source https://www.coindesk.com/sec-rejects-bitwises-latest-bitcoin-etf-proposal

The rejection by SEC on the Bitwise Investments ETF proposal is not surprising to me as the odds are really against it. I think that SEC for now is not inclined in any way to approve of such a platform due to the many grounds cited in the decision which had been the same reasons for the rejections of other ETF applications in the past. To the SEC commissioners, this is not the right time, the market is not really ready for ETF and there is no adequate infrastructure and parameters in placed to counteract possible manipulations and frauds. Surprisingly, there seems to be no pull on Bitcoin by this negative decision and this means that we are all past waiting for any ETF approval and in reality ETF does not matter at all as the whole industry has already moved on without it.

Again, it's rejected. That will happen over and over. I think they are not ready to approve bitcoin and they still searching a way to delay the decision. I don't wait for approving or rejecting ETF and I think many people are tired to wait for that status. Approve or not, bitcoin will rise and in that time, people will see that bitcoin can run without any regulations.

The reasons cited seem to be merely excuses for rejection, not the main reasons. At root I think the main reason is that it is not controlled by any governmental agencies and that alone is enough for rejection in the short term.

Already get numbed when it comes to this part when we do talk ETF matters. SEC doesnt really tend to approve any of these ETF's.Why? There's someone above that do control
when it comes on making such decisions.Government doesnt like decentralized things on the first place so why would consider out on approving anything that relates to it?
It sucks when theres rejection but people seems doesnt care anymore.

Agreed. Price manipulation was also mentioned. They do not want to give that privilege to the people outside the privileged. Similar to the privilege of money laundering which the cryptospace opens for everyone.

If Libra is released, I predict a Libra ETF approved before any bitcoin ETF hehehe.

Libra is essentially a digital version of the United States Dollar. So there will be no "price manipulation" for Libra. It will be similar to investing in the US treasury bonds. On the other hand, Bitcoin has its own exchange rate, which is independent of any other asset or fiat currency. And there is enough evidence available to claim that at least some of the exchanges are rigging the order books.