Bitcoin Forum

As far as I can see, we are surrounded by the ones who are willing to become rich quick through bitcoin and other altcoins. While they are doing this, we are missing a lot one of which is the ideas of satoshi. Because of these people, bitcoin is getting negative comments by the ones who are losing money in short term and telling a 'scam scheme' to bitcoin.

A Manifest to The Community

1) We need to go back to the roots
2) We don't need institutions to back us up
3) We need to apply the decentralization through getting the nodes out of the centralized servers firstly(aws, google cloud etc.)
4) We may delay the mass adoption thoughts until we fix some centralization issues
5) This forum needs to be decentralized too




edit for the manifest, morely as an explanation

1) The main idea for Bitcoin is to make the system decentralized and control our own money. We are leaving this through wanting to carry the price ATH whether it is with institutions(Libra, ETFs, Bakkt, and other governmental projects) or some other ways which doesn't include the roots of Bitcoin and ideas of Satoshi.

2) As I explained above, as far as I can see, people want the price to reach high so that they can make their money 10x-100x. To do that, they want institutions' investments. Check the news, oh hey Bakkt reached daily new volume record. We should be inelastic with the news regarding to these regulation moves. Libra may not get approved, we don't need it. This shouldn't affect the price or this shouldn't decrease the mass adoption. We don't need these.

3)I have seen a report stating that more than 60% of the ETH nodes are on the cloud servers, they are mostly on AWS.

On the other hand, once, Binance CEO stated that AWS issues affected the users. I don't have the full information about what are affected but this shows that 'we have a problem'
https://twitter.com/cz_binance/status/1164768489040535559

4) We, asap, want mass adoption so that the price can reach ATH. Let's not think that simple and work on some issues we have as I stated on 3rd. How to delay it? Well, we may not spread much about bitcoin and cryptocurrencies before we clear the scam ICOs or scale issues or centralization issues. Otherwise, we will lose them forever if they come to a system which is not set yet.

5) We may have a voting system, decentralization means dividing the power.

What centralization issues? Can you please elaborate?

Apart from the technical nitty gritties and debate between centralization and decentralization, First and foremost thing, we need to use bitcoin as a currency! If you look at bitcoin as an investment, you are getting it wrong from the first moment!

Having said that, bitcoin also needs to be adopted widely to go back to the roots. Unless we have a place to spend bitcoin for our daily needs, we ain't gonna use it as a currency! So each of these parameters are inter-dependent! It's use as a currency won't be developed unless it is adopted widely. And to make it widely adopted, institutional support is needed!

We can't be really blind and throw away opportunities for the sake of being centralized while the economy worldwide is strongly inter-connected!

Why? It's almost unnecessary, and I'm not sure how you're going to decentralized a forum anyway(P.S. Steemit is not decentralized). Bitcointalk is working really well right now in it's current state, and I think making it decentralized is very likely just going to bring in more problems than advantages.

They aren't backing anyone up, they are simply trading Bitcoin, and it's their right to do so, Bitcoin does not discriminate, everyone is free to use it.



Who we? Regular users rarely host nodes in the cloud, it's mostly done by enterprise, go preach to them, if you want.

How can you delay something that is done by the masses?


You can't have a decentralized forum that at the same time has moderation.

I think that similar to how Gold has been and is viewed as an investment instrument, so we need to look at Bitcoin like. First of all we must understand that we've never encountered something like Bitcoin which fulfills both the store of value and method of payments functions. Even if Satoshi has created Bitcoin with it to be used in day to day transactions that doesn't mean we shouldn't speculate on it. The truth is that it is a deflationary currency, thus is bound to increase in value as the supply shrinks more and more over time. Do you think Satoshi created the decimals just to be there? - We don't really have a use for the "satoshi" unit NOW as it is not even worth more than 1 cent. But as the price grows and we go into the 6,7 digits numbers we will make the transition so people mostly use that term instead of BTC.

Perhaps, the author meant the debates around regulations. Do we need the authorities of various countries to impose regulations on cryptocurrencies or not? It's a difficult question because if we are pro-regulation, the second question is how far can we agree for it to go in return for safe (100% legal) usage of Bitcoin.

I agree that there's no need in decentralizing the forum, but I think it's possible theoretically to have a decentralized forum with moderation. For one, moderation can be automatized (auto-deleting posts with certain words or posts which were reported to moderators X times). Another way to go around would be to decide the banning cases by voting or something like that.

Correct. Bitcoin will work with or without them.

Do you have data on the percentage of nodes that runs on those services? You could have a point here, and a first start would be if you run your own node from your home.

Why and how? I don't think that's something you can plan, but I also don't see a reason to want to slow down adoption.

That's funny coming from someone who just created an account here. From what I've seen, forums that claim to be decentralized still run on a centralized server.
But feel free to create a decentralized forum, I'd love to join one that works!

its too late to inform people that btc is meant to be spent daily because for once they are here to earn btc, keep it like investment. i don't think anyone is going to spend their BTC to pay for the products they buy every day while they pay for the high transaction fee. if there is a stablecoin, its the stablecoin that we may be using to pay for anything. its not satoshi's idea i guess but i think this is where we are going now.

BTC is opensource, satoshi knew it can be forked and copied. its his idea too.

I have seen a report stating that more than 60% of the ETH nodes are on the cloud servers, they are mostly on AWS.

On the other hand, once, Binance CEO stated that AWS issues affected the users. I don't have the full information about what are affected but this shows that 'we have a problem'

https://twitter.com/cz_binance/status/1164768489040535559

It doesn't matter what we want, the legislators won't consult with this forum or Bitcoin community when they will write the laws that will regulate Bitcoin. And they surely won't ask us if we want regulations or not in the first place.


Algorithms, including AI, can't separate spam from normal posts well enough to use them on practice. Automods exist and are used, but they don't cover all the cases.

As for voting and reporting, it's all not Sybil resistant.

I disagree on this point, people actually spend Bitcoin on products and services. It is difficult to implement that into a physical store, most of the transactions happen online. This forum for example, services are rendered daily in exchange for bitcoins. Many gambling sites also accepts bitcoin transactions. If we can trade Bitcoin for these, then we can trade it for a wider range of products.

What high transaction fee are you referring to?

Well, Uniquely as it was only Loycev knows I don't want to certainly judge someone but it is their decision to give merit or not and it is my decision as well to not give you one, but I am asking the same question as you did but certainly it is how the forum works now,

Anyway, for OP if there is really a forum site that can run in a decentralized system please share the link here or give a link to the article if there are developers doing it, but I certainly am getting used to this forum and it is surely satoshi's idea to simply make a forum like this so this is Satoshi's idea in the first place.

1) I'm not sure if that is possible, the crypto-currency scene is constantly evolving and institutional investors and regulators now have their eyes upon all things crypto.
2) I agree we don't need institutions to back us up. Cryptocurrency seems to have a life of its own.
3) Not sure If I understand correctly
4) Mass adoption is inevitable with Facebook pushing the forefront and on the frontline for the crypto community. Any blunder Libra makes will set the standard on how other companys choose to navigate the law.
5) I doubt the forum will ever be decentralized, it seems to be in good hands. The community is meticulous with how things are run, if you don't agree just check the Meta sub-forum.

I don't understand why there is the need to delay adoption, the projects created to serve crypto users are meant to spread the use of BTC and cryptocurrencies with usecase which satoshi's idea can also be applied. Facebook should be able to help but the issue could be because its facebook who will be releasing this stablecoin which has a shady behavior when it comes to privacy. There isn't the need for decentralized forum. If we do need it, there is steemit.

In my opinion, from the OP point, the ideas of Satoshi can be implemented, except for points 4 and 5 for now can't be run.
Why should we delay adopting bitcoin until the centralization problem is fixed. Because of the problem centralization is related
to the government and banks. It must be resolved by the centralization itself. I think the point Next, the decentralization forum
 needs to not be implemented because it is in the common interest. There must be something
control this forum, so there is no chaos.

Imo it's still not too late to say that bitcoin could be spent every day, many are using it as an investment because of the potential profits. When you're given two options between spending and investing most would likely going to picking investing because who doesn't like getting more than what you currently have. But there are sill a lot of people spending bitcoin for products and other things you can't cross them out. If there were less people spending bitcoin over time, merchants, companies, etc would've stopped by now.

I think you'll discover that old hands in this space aren't very excited about Libra, ETFs, Bakkt, etc. It's the newcomers -- who are looking to get rich quick -- that are most excited about them. Over time, the get-rich-quick investors either leave the market or they come to actually appreciate Bitcoin and decentralization.

We can't stop people from using cloud servers to run nodes. All we can do is make running a full node as easy as possible by maximizing scaling optimizations and minimizing new bandwidth/storage requirements.

We need decentralized money, and that's what Bitcoin is for. But not everything needs to be decentralized -- this forum, for instance.

interesting! How would be that possible and what difference would it make? Is there anything you don't like about the forum in its current status?

I didn't get your point here. Vote on what?

I just want to post my qualms about the last item pertaining to the decentralization of this forum. Bitcoin is decentralized and that is very good but making this forum decentralized is too much. If we make this forum decentralized then there will be no more admins regulating this bitcoin forum and chaos will occur. Also pertaining to upgrading the website, doing maintenance, paying the servers and hosts who will be the one to do it if this forum becomes decentralized. If this forum is decentralized and there is no consensus this forum is dead a long time ago.

The roots would be back in 2012 or something, where we didn't really care about adoption, it was a smaller community with little to nothing in terms of money, and it was mostly a p2p system where users would buy items for BTC.

Not sure if that's the best world for bitcoin - having companies like Amazon, etc being able to take bitcoin as a payment method, and having a world that is partially bitcoin-friendly is great, and provides a lot of convenience for people.

It'll be hard to turn this forum decentralized but it's a good idea and does fit the theme. How would you recommend we solve centralization issues with BTC, and delay adoption though..?

I agree with some of your suggestions here but I am sure that you must be aware that since Bitcoin is decentralized we don't have any central figure or leadership that can decide on the many suggestions you are bringing here. And even if there is someone leading Bitcoin, it might take some form of a superpower before many things you brought up can be implemented. For example, talking about scams projects, how should we implement clearing them out of the marketplace? To do that, you need some regulations and who will be implementing them, the government or the industry itself? Remember that we don't have self-regulation yet in this industry but that can be a good way to start with this mess. There are so many good things that are not coming true as we many times deviate from the ideal settings all because we are living in a real world where imperfection and weakness of human nature abound. Yes, it is quite easy to say we should reset or stall things for a while but who should we entrust the power to decide on this matter and what are the parameters we should be following? Am sure a debate like this can be taking us more than 10 years.

i agree with almost everything you said here but there is one thing that i can't agree with. you say we need to delay mass adoption to fix these problems, but that is not how you fix a problem. you have to "change" people's perspective and more importantly change the way current people are introducing bitcoin to others.

for example one of the biggest problems is that people are introducing others to bitcoin as a get rich quick scheme or a cash cow. and when these new people with this view come in, they also fall for the altcoin scams and go into their web of deceit and lose money. eventually we see an increased number of "gamblers" instead of people who are here because they liked the idea of a decentralized currency.
which is why i say we have to first change that view.

then it wouldn't matter if people are also excited about profit.

We cannot clear the market from fraudulent ICOs and scams if we don't want regulatory board to oversee the market. If no one would impose and implement such regulations, scammers and exploiters would just be able to continue what they're doing without worrying about being penalized. We need at least one organization that would be responsible for crypto-related projects and have legal signings to make them responsible for their investors.

There are many Bitcoin <BTC> nodes that are not being run on centralized cloud services and we saw that when there was a fork war with Bitcoin Cash and also when we had a war with the Bitcoin XT guys. They ran their nodes on cloud services, because they had money to burn on the free coins that they were selling and since then, these coins has faded into history and the nodes in the clouds went with them.  ;D

Bitcoin has 1000's of full nodes that are not running in a centralized cloud service, but rather on an inexpensive Raspberry Pi setup or old computer at someone's home.  ;)

Ok, i'll bite, how and why? Like Reddit? Would every newb vote weight the same? What if someone made just 100 accounts and vote with those? In all cases there would just markets for paid votes to promote shitcoin projects thus rendering the whole system useless. Also i don't get why this forum should be decentralized anyway.

So, what is the centralization issues? 51% attack or what?
we can't delay mass adoption, it's flow with time and bitcoin doesn't mean to be scale, segwit and lightning network should be enough for now.


The decentralized forum was satoshi's idea too or just yours?
You can say this forum more or less decentralized as the founder left bitcointalk, and Theymos as the only one administrator left has the management rights, until Cyrus became another administrator.
No one owns the forum on his name.

Theymos said;

Cobra also owns the bitcointalk.org domain name. I consider the forum to be basically owned by or at least dedicated to the Bitcoin community, though; I don't call anyone an owner of the forum. Link (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3284381.msg34255007#msg34255007)

Bitcointalk.org:
 - Cobra has ultimate control over the domain name. I have access to the domain name settings.
 - I run the server. Cobra has no access to the database or server.
 - The BTC is held by myself and the treasurers. Cobra has no access.

 bitcointalk.org. Fun fact: The name "bitcointalk" was invented by Jeff Garzik, and he's the one who bought the domain.

So, I assume Cobra is Jeff Garzik.

Come on don't be too idealistic. We must think more openly and accept various ideas, it does not mean all must be approved and applied, but this is more to attitude.
System decentralization has advantages and disadvantages, especially bitcoin, most governments see and realize the good opportunities of bitcoin, it's just that they still worry about the negative side because it cannot be fully controlled by the government. That is why there are various ideas related to cryptocurrency that are more "friendly" with the intervention of the authorities. Everyone has their own tendencies, right? there are always those who agree and don't, we must respect that.

Well, which has more affect on people/community? Facebook can spread its centralized coin or USA government can tell their citizens that bitcoin is illegal and they will create a cryptocurrency on blockchain system. So, they have the good hand, we need to organize and fire back to them. We need to spread these thoughts and hold the community. People shouldn't be afraid of having bitcoin.

Check the comments of politicians. Do they tell more about bitcoin or blockchain technology? You know the answer.

What do you exactly mean by this?


We can't control anyone who wanted to enter the market, after all this it is open and free including institutional money.


I maybe wrong, but those who run full node doesn't used centralise servers.


Adoption will come, it's just a matter of time.


The forum is working as designed, so why changed it?

---

Again, this very issues you mentioned are not really issues, but an offset of what this technology has become, and just like other technological advancement, it has to evolved as well and that is what where witnessing right now.

Wonderful point OP and I so much agree with you that we need to go back to our root because it seems that we are all miss-interpreting bitcoin and using it for just investment alone, meanwhile satoshi idea of the cryptocurrency is to create a peer to peer payment system and this is the angle for which we are supposed to take bitcoin.

it is when we take bitcoin from this angle that we can fully get the best of its vale, but as you also said, all these centralized projects that are coming up in the cryptocurrency world is really defeating that purpose which it think we should all start thinking of how we can embraced decentralized projects more, including decentralized exchanges because this is also one of the area where I think that we have gotten it wrong.

It’s shameful that 99.9999% of people only care about the price and how much money they can make. No one asks anything about the Fundamentals or the technology of #bitcoin and because of that reason is why so many people lost their money by believing they can make a quick buck when they don’t know anything about what they’re investing in, this was needed to happen. Especially to get rid of all these shit coins and weak hands, those idiots who only care about their financial gains.

For #bitcoin to hit ATH 85% of all shit coins have to die and everything is possible.

***We need to apply the decentralization through getting the nodes out of the centralized servers firstly (aws, google cloud etc.)***
nothing like running a node on a raspberry pie https://www.amazon.com/CanaKit-Raspberry-4GB-Basic-Starter/dp/B07VYC6S56/ref=asc_df_B07VYC6S56/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=366315397608&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14664430780159514008&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9010790&hvtargid=aud-829758849484:pla-833869585324&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=74356900537&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=366315397608&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14664430780159514008&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9010790&hvtargid=aud-829758849484:pla-833869585324