Bitcoin Forum

I know many libertarians are doom-and-gloom about the US debt, but I for one take cynical glee in this whole situation.

Currently we are faced with a continual increase in our debt, along with the political inability to raise taxes or cut spending in any meaningful way. The only way out, without raising taxes or cutting spending, is to legalize and regulate some activities of the black market. There are tons of revenue streams, in online gambling, prostitution, and drugs (illegal and pharmacutical) that the US can easily tap into and would be a libertarians philisophical wet dream.

And it just seems that in boom-times (Reagan and Clinton era) nobody really took any of these arguments seriously; but I believe times like these are forcing society to come to terms with logic...we can't afford to continue criminalizing nonviolent market activity just because we don't like what it is.

I just don't see society ever acting on this freedom agenda unless it are in a crisis like we are in now...so I applaud the debt and the do-nothing congress. Just my cynical side speaking :)

I disagree with you based on your premise that there will ever be incentive to lower the debt. Our monetary policy is provided by a private organization that thrives on debt and they own the majority of it: It's called The Federal Reserve. The greater the debt, the larger the amount of the US's wealth they own. They'll happily hold claim over the political collateral that is the US and its citizenry any day over being paid off.

Your dream is a false one. The truth is the greater the debt, the greater our benefactor's power. Little can stop this machine especially the pretentious old men on capitol hill. They were the ones that signed this nation over to The Federal Reserve in the first place.

The only conclusion is the banker's continuing their endless cycle of laundering through their international monetary regime. They continue to dilute our money while they increase theirs (Gold). As they do this, the further we dive into slavery all made possible by worthless paper we consider wealth.

In summary, don't put your faith in puppets.

The US debt level is high due to the boomers not producing enough babies to cover their costs but its not alarmingly high.  As long as the dollar is the global reserve currency, you have nothing to worry about.

Remember the old saying: If you owe someone a million dollars, they have you by the throat.  If you owe someone a trillion dollars, you have them by the throat :D

Our debt load is so high that ever 1% increase in borrowing costs results in $160B a year spent in taxes.

Say we actually did balance the budget today and the yield on our debt rose 3% we would be looking at a $500B annual deficit ($5 trillion over 10 years since the snakes in Washington like to use that double speak).

Given US debt is at historical lows, the more is becoming less of a dollar hegemony and all the talk about "austerity" in the US is gnashing of teeth about reducing the deficit (not actually the debt) over a DECADE, I don't think we have anyone by the throat ... except maybe ourselves.

The Federal Reserve is not ourselves. It is a powerful organization that is not under our jurisdiction.

The oil companies are thinking about dumping it pretty soon.

While the government may become more open to legalizing certain businesses for tax revenue, we are also coming up with new technologies to avoid doing business in the old way and avoid paying taxes. Bitcoin is a perfect example. I think as government keep pushing for more taxes, censorship, and copyright controls, money, information/data, and business will become more and more decentralized, with stuff like buying and selling privately in secret overseas without declaring income, running data distributions through mesh networks, etc.

They will stop using Sterling for Brent Crude long before they stop using the dollar for West Texas Intermediate.  And there is no sign of that happening anytime soon.  So whoever told you otherwise misled you.

The Fed didn't put a gun to the American people's head and force us to spend money we don't have.  I would gadly see the Fed gone but Americans (yes that means ever single American including myself) need to take some collective responsibility.

WE spent $15T we never had.  Period. 

Oh but they did. They took control of the politicians that put a gun to our head daily.

We are not our representative's constituents; they are.

That won't happen until Americans can feel the debt impacting them directly. If every bit of new spending, be it war or stimulus, required a mandatory tax increase on EVERYONE to cover the difference we wouldn't be in this mess. But since we're throwing around money we borrowed from China and elsewhere, and didn't sacrafice anything ourselves to get it, no one cares, really.
Maybe if US defaulted on domestic debt only, crewing up everyone's treasury and bond holding they have either in plain investments or in retirement accounts, people would sit up and take notice. But I doubt that would happen, since naturally we would first screw the outsiders before screwing ourselves.

The. Debt. Is. Not. Going. Away. The people in power will succumb to the whims of the bankers far sooner than they would respond to the mere vocal whims of the people.

If the people truly want it to, there will be revolution by force; I certainly prefer this.

Our foreign debt is pennies compared to what we owe to The Fed and The Central Banks. If anything, it's just a distraction.

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user5/imageroot/2011/10/total%20debt%20to%20gdp.jpg

The US Germany and Canada are all considered OK.  Notice that the German government debt is bigger than the US one.

The UK is also considered OK as it controls its own currency.  Likewise Japan.

Spain, France and Italy are screwed.

All according to plan. The EU will happily consolidate Spain, France and Italy into the globalist monetary regime; further centralization, if you will. This will allow for greater control.

Japan has a private and independent central bank. The Bank of England is also independent of government authority and has private shareholders as well. These country's governments do not control their money supply.

Italy debt is mostly to themselves, so if they do get screwed, they would mainly be crewing themselves and their own pensions/retirements? Considering Italian family-oriented culture, though, I'm not too concerned about anyone starving in the streets.

Banca d'Italia is a private institution with private shareholders. So, no, they are not indebted to themselves but to a sovereign organization.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banca_d%27Italia

Hmm, I stand corrected http://www.concertedaction.com/2011/11/11/holders-of-italys-public-debt-and-government-securities/

Interesting. Italy might actually be sovereign. : O

Thank you.

The Bank of England is a government body.  http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/foi/disc091106.htm  No private shareholders.

So on your logic the British Government does control its money supply.  As it happens, you are wrong in that the BoE was made independent 14 years ago but its been 100% state owned for 70 years or so.

It's a government body in the same sense registered corporations are government bodies. The state is not a major shareholder; ergo, it doesn't own its own debt.

I will admit the treasury gets 25% dividends but that is only true if the back fully discloses its income. The Federal Reserve gave over $16 trillion in secret loans that remained unreported for quite awhile. Central banks tend not to be held accountable for these sorts of things.

The Bank of England is transparent.  The state is the ONLY shareholder.  All its actions are public with a 30 or 90 day delay.  Oddly, its not accountable.  Currently they are flagrantly in breach of their charter but getting away with it because the government has bought into its Krugman-type analysis of the inflation rate.

From the site:


"If the Bank of England has share holders do they get paid dividends, and what was the value of dividends paid in the past five years?'

And the answer to the question is they don't have shareholderS.

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/foi/disc091106.htm

'Does the Bank of England have shareholders? If the Bank does have shareholders who are they?'

The Bank of England is the central bank of the whole of the UK and was established as a corporate body by Royal Charter under the Bank of England Act 1694. The Bank was nationalised on 1 March 1946, and gained operational independence to set interest rates in 1997. The Bank is a public sector institution wholly-owned by the government...

Please please don't act stupid for the sake of acting stupid.  We already know your arguments don't make sense but that is no reason to act like you personally cannot read.

Well I agree that lowering the debt is not the goal, but rather growing the economy. And there considerable untapped growth in the black markets.

Heh, Hawker, why is such resentment worth your energy? Do I really have that much say in your happiness? You're stronger than this.

What?  Everyone else is allowed to be emo and not me :(  No fair.

Well, if this forum is truly full of people who thrive on angst and emotion, that would explain a lot.