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DRC uses child labor.

Every Tesla/powerwall sold is using child labor.

What's the societal impact of child labor on finished products?

It's the sad truth of any new tech that has to use certain minerals. They're most likely coming from places with horrible working conditions, child labor, people are dying while mining these things, and so on and so forth.

Though Tesla is trying to find a way to not have to rely on precious metals such as Cobalt -- see here (https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/21/17488626/elon-musk-cobalt-electric-vehicle-battery-science) as I think he's the one thats single handidly draining the supply of Cobalt. So, that probably isn't too cheap.

Since something like 2/3 of Cobalt produced comes from DR Congo, I wouldn't single out Tesla here, as many others are using Cobalt from the same source ( for example cobalt for batteries in our mobile phone most likely comes from Congo) and with many other companies  announcing electric cars, demand will significantly rise in years to come.

In a country that has one of the lowest GDP per capita in the world, world's 2nd rate of infant mortality, use of child soldiers in conflicts,  decades of dictatorship and overall instability, child labor is something that is  unfortunately very hard to eradicate. I just hope that DR Congo government will eventually start doing something in that regard

I feel sorry for DR Congo, that  area has been heavily exploited in past as well, and unfortunately history tends to repeat itself.  Belgium King Leopold II owned that whole country, and used it as private property from 1885 to 1908, and during that period millions lost their lives during brutal exploitation. Here is the link (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_II_of_Belgium#Congo_Free_State) if someone wants to read more about that somewhat forgotten part of the history.

Every enterprise has dark sides. They need to do whatever to keep the price low. They are sourcing material from cheap provider, it's not much of their concern how the product is obtained. It's largely the responsibility of the Congo's government to stop child labor and make provision for these kid to obtain proper education in schools. And we should rather pressure/help congo's government to make the change. Pressuring Telsa to stop getting Cobalt from DRC would have even more drastic consequences for those kids.

While I typically do follow this line of thinking. They don't HAVE to do this, no one is forcing them to do such. It's just the fact that in order to keep shareholders and buyers of the car happy, they're going to need to save money on certain things -- and buying cobalt from a place which treats their workers horribly is something they're going to do.

Profits are what business is all about.


I think this line of thinking is the better one, if this is the only place you're going to be able to buy this then this is what's going to happen.

And where can they source cheaper, worker-friendly cobalt? It's pretty much just DRC and Zambia and I don't know if the latter is any better.

I don't think Musk have enough clout to directly affect change in DRC. Maybe they can offer to pay a bit more to their mining partner in exchange for them only hiring adults and maybe other mining operators might follow suit? I don't see that happening though.

Even if, it'll be like the mica situation in India, those kids would just end up probably doing even more dangerous jobs if their source of income dry up.

Realistically, the best thing that could have happened to the DRC is the tripling in cobalt prices that have tripled the country's income from these operations.

That gives mine operators far more flexibility to deal with labor issues, even though that may be through international pressures.

On the other hand, just finding an alternative to cobalt is ignoring the problem of the child labor...

The history of the loot of Congo and the events that lead to assasiantion of Patrice Lumumba (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba) is one of the saddest parts of Modern History. Imagine what Africans could have done with a leader like him at the helm who advocated Pan-African unity in the 50s and 60s.

It is also somehow impossible to understand the  deep hatred that Africans reserve for Africans. Starting from the genocide in Rwanda to the current civil war in South Sudan, almost all the time these people are killing, raping and maiming their own fellows. They have had the concept of a common outsider enemy for almost all their modern history, yet instead of uniting, they have almost always been fighting against each other and letting themselves be manipulated by Western interests.

It's not the sad truth about any new technology, they're just after profits so they go after the cheapest raw materials. Sourcing from ethical mines is perfectly possible. Tesla isn't the only company that doesn't check on its supply chain, but they sure could do better than use Congolese mines.

Most new technology that comes to mass-manufacturing stage starts in the developed west. When it comes to rare earth elements, it is nothing new that people in developing countries get exploited. If its not rare earth elements then it is working condition of cheap labor in countries like India, Bangladesh.

There have been times when companies have taken positive steps to prevent such things but taking the moral responsibility for the whole supply chain isn't something that can be asked of them. This applies well to countries that have a stable, functioning Govt. For example, Walmart blacklisted one of the suppliers in Bangaldesh after that factory collapse of 2013.

Yet, in countries like Congo, that have actively suffered due to developed country interests (Patrice Lumuba, the post-independence leader of Congo went to US, Canada and UN for help but didn't get any as Belgium convinced them that he was a "communist"), I think people like Elon Musk can take responsibility to ensure that the business they are giving to Congo remains exploitation free and bring the fruits of labor to whatever populace works there. This needs some social media activism from the Africans, if they can agree to rally together.

I don't think there's much alternative, hence the need to help DRC fix this issue.

Yes an increase in prices might allow them to pay decent wages but I don't think that would stop them sneaking in kids to save costs. Only with the central government becoming stronger to implement laws would it be truly stopped.

So I think it's going to be a gradual change. Miners start earning more, government gets more taxes, government gets to improve policing.

Agreed. But gradual change is a really good thing, and is based on long term relations and reasonable requests.

I agree with you @tsaroz here. The pressure must be on the Democratic Republic of Congo government. They should strictly impose the law on child labor, good practices in mining and so forth. The government has the power to address this issue unless the government turned blind eye and become complacent on this issue, this will continue.

It's interesting that they're advertising electric cars as environment friendly but they don't recycle their batteries. In a couple years these batteries will turn into piles of waste.

the popularity of electric vehicles starts to grow explosively, so does the pile of spent lithium-ion batteries that once powered those cars. Industry analysts predict that by 2020, China alone will generate some 500,000 metric tons of used Li-ion batteries and that by 2030, the worldwide number will hit 2 million metric tons per year.
https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28

It's free market. It's not the DRC that uses child labor but the parents of those children that allow it to happen. The child is not the responsibility nor property of the government. If parents and human rights activists allow it to happen they are to blame. Tesla doesn't strike deals with children or their parents but companies who offer to do this or that at a certain price.

Tesla does:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122631_tesla-launches-battery-recycling-at-nevada-gigafactory (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122631_tesla-launches-battery-recycling-at-nevada-gigafactory)

https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e (https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e)
As do others:

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/for-dead-ev-batteries-reuse-comes-before-recycle/ (https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/for-dead-ev-batteries-reuse-comes-before-recycle/)

https://earth911.com/eco-tech/toyota-launches-hybrid-battery-recycling-program/ (https://earth911.com/eco-tech/toyota-launches-hybrid-battery-recycling-program/)

In certain parts of the US, lets just call them "The Redeck Meth User States" people are actually stealing hybrid batteries to sell to the scrap yard / recycling centers.

Harder then stealing your rims, but I guess it's a lot more money. I just really want to know how they are getting them out of cars w/o people knowing.

-Dave

Yes. Problems like this would take several generations to fix. Better let it slowly fix itself than, you know, bomb the country into freedom. Thank goodness tech companies don't operate as much as the banana companies used to.


Was it the DRC that used child soldiers in a war? Anyway, yes unless it's forced labor at gunpoint, then the parents are to blame. Even if they are not forcing their children to work. Sometimes children would just work voluntarily out of hunger and pity for the family.

Anyone that lives in a developed country is contributing to child labor. Just about every clothing product you wear is made in some sweat shop by some poor kid living in China or another third world country. The only way to stop something like this is to buy locally made products but the fact is, people don't want to play higher prices for good that are outsourced through child labor. We don't have to endorse child labor, but we sure as hell won't stand up to it by adjust consumer practices. I'm not going to blame Tesla when Nike, Adidas, and just about any other clothing company is exploiting child labor just like Tesla.

funny part is
avoiding say a grocery store that buys food produce from factory farms, to instead go to a farmers market to buy organic food from a 'local'  FAMILY farm. usually means the children of the family are working for free labour as part of their 'chores'

remember the whole point in schools having a summer break so that the kids can help on the family farms around harvest time
but hey. give american thanks giving that god provided all the food.. and dont give the kids the thanks they deserve

I'd guess they're producing more than they're recycling, but it's good effort. I like that they're at least trying.


Some cars like the Prius have them under the back seat, accessible through the trunk. They just have to break the trunk lock and it's up for grabs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjlLnzK-yYA


Yes before 2003. It's still a savage country but going from making children into soldiers and sex slaves to employ is some progress. It's Africa. These people used to murder women and children with machetes only a decade ago.

If these kids didn't work, they wouldn't have anything to eat.

They aren't slaves. They don't work because someone forces them to.
They work so they can earn food.

If companies didn't purchase their products they would die from starvation.

Oh, I thought that was Rwanda. I just hope this income from cobalt would actually lift the country from poverty rather than become another resource curse, like diamonds were for other countries in Africa.

....

 Never think that your own experience is adequate to solve a problem in Africa. One day on the ground there is quite enlightening.

Africa is at once beautiful, and terrifying.

Its disheartening that countries themselves cannot protect children that are the most vulnerable members of the society but are waiting for corporations outside the country to comply with corporate standards and frustrate them to do the right thing which is what is happening in DRC. Tesla will release a statement to talk about how they are ensuring their workflow does not involve child labor but really who will go around checking everyday to ensure this is being complied with? It can only be reduced but not eradicated and its not Tesla's fault to wanting to source raw material where it expect it to be the cheapest for it to carry out its own activities. The shame is on the government and people of DRC who have failed to protect its citizen and future of the country in no distant time.

Yeah that's not going to happen when the country is plagued by corruption, abuses by the government, and no democracy at all.

Like yes -- would it be great if the government there would take some of the money from the cobalt mines and put it towards developing schools in the area, or further healthcare research, or something along those lines.

It truly would be great -- but it's going into the pockets of warlords.

Well one is free to dream. Botswana managed to escape the chaos and wars that befell the other diamond-producing countries so they might be doing something right that heavy exporting countries like DRC can learn from. Rwanda also made several improvements since the 94 genocide it seems.

I believe there would definitely be development in these rare resource exporting countries, especially with China starting to invest in them. What that would that mean for the people is what's uncertain, especially since China isn't particular about their partner's policies regarding rights, etc.

Oh do I think it is possible for this to happen? Yes. But you truly do need to have a government which is willing to give up power and to have faith in their system. You can't think you're the only person who can do your job, or that you're the only hope for the development of the country.

Typically rulers in these countries lead for decades, because they think they're the only hope for this country. When in reality they're not.

You have to believe in the system of your nation, and not the system of yourself.

Unfortunately DR Congo and Botswana have very different last 100-120 years, even though they were both colonies. DR Congo history is way more violent with longer history of exploitation, and way less democratic. As @squatz1 mentioned, their presidents tend to rule until they die, while Botswana has longest streak of democratic elections in Africa.
Botswana was once as poor as DR Congo, but their political stability helped them to use their natural sources properly, and until that is improved in DR Congo, there won't be much progress, no matter what kind of natural resource they find there.

Regarding children working in those mines, some are definitely forced to do that, but for some that is  the only way to get money for food. I read some interview recently with 11 yo that is mining cobalt. His parents are dead, and all he has is his grandma, and it is up to him to provide food. Kids there don't really have much choice, eventually they could be recruited as child soldiers, as that is still going on there. Sadly, there are worse things than Cobalt mining for kids there...

I was born in Cameroon and I spend a lot of time doing business in Africa, the reality of 'exploitation' in Africa often comes down to the following quote

"the only thing worse than being exploited, is not to be exploited!"
- Joan Robinson

Without intervention, it'll be a slow climb. As the people's lives improves and become economically-free, they'd start asking for political-freedom, with more say on decision-making.


Most article I've read chalk it up to luck and determination, with a group Tswana chieftains even going so far as to travel to England to set-up proper diplomatic ties. So yes, they managed to secure political stability and that has helped them weather the diamond discovery.

Currently, I think it'll be better for the government to grow big enough first to stamp down armed groups which is hurting the stability of the country (these are those that hire children as child soldiers). Then the political freedom for the people will come later as more of them become affluent enough. Of course some people would think it should be the reverse but that's just my opinion.

investing into africa becomes pure madness.

eurasia is the way forward.

It is these leftists idiots that don't understand that banning child labor will kill the children.


You can't sign your way to prosperity.
It's the current reality that African countries have almost no incentive to be invested in because of bad laws etc. that caused people to earn so little with their work that parents simply can't earn enough to feed themselves&their children in the same time.
In a lot of cases the kids need to work if they want to live.
The only thing that can change that is to open up the market and set way for the market forces to increase the wages&prosperity.

This is true, but when we go deep to know the beginning for such a situation. It is the corporate network that evade the resources for their benefits through some agreement as the natives doesn't know the value of the resources and its usage. This at some point busted and natives took control. Now though the natives mine and sell the minerals it is the corporate who fix the price. This is the reason for such a worse suffering of kids. Not only Tesla each and every firm benefiting out of it is supposed to do what is necessary and give the life the kids deserve.

Tesla is suppose to be environment friendly. Well the first step is to be able to repair something which is legally yours and not throw it on land fill.
Companies should be required to produce schematics and repair manuals that a freely available for any product they release.
Tesla Hacker: The Rogue Mechanic Taking On Tesla
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ytm_GnTkl0