Title: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: pandher on March 18, 2014, 03:47:47 PM Inviting constructive criticism, please dont post one line replies that hold no meaningful points.
So the question is, how do we picture Bitcoin as a decentralized revolution when a very high number of coins are hoarded by early adopters which results in quite the opposite. To me, the whole mining system looks like bull. Its like giving away lots of coins in first come first served basis. A currency shouldn't be given away like this, it will only lead to concentration of the wealth to a low percentage of people. This means that the original satoshi idea was flawed. Its right that we are experiencing something completely different than traditional fiat and we cant predict how things are going to be, but i dont see bitcoin expanding beyond a - gambling, trading and speculative niche market. Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: Luno on March 18, 2014, 03:52:26 PM You know at first, up until 2011 wallets mined coins by themselves. Everyone interested in bitcoin downloaded the wallet software, and started generating bitcoins to their own wallet by ticking a box.
Very fair and simple. Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: spazzdla on March 18, 2014, 03:56:21 PM You know at first, up until 2011 wallets mined coins by themselves. Everyone interested in bitcoin downloaded the wallet software, and started generating bitcoins to their own wallet by ticking a box. Very fair and simple. Like primecoin currently :). IMO BTC will become the gold of cryptos.. horded, held in mass by a few and to become one of if not the best store of wealth. Something like dogecoin will becoming the spending currency. As for the creation of money.. at least there are no barriers to entry for people with bitcoin.. TRY to get in on the fractional banking system and tell me how it goes for you. I don't mean take out a loan.. I mean make a loan out of thin air and lend it to someone on the promise that other people owe you money... In the 1200's we hung people for this.. now we give them massive bonouses for stealing from us.. disgusting. Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: arepo on March 18, 2014, 03:56:41 PM Inviting constructive criticism, please dont post one line replies that hold no meaningful points. So the question is, how do we picture Bitcoin as a decentralized revolution when a very high number of coins are hoarded by early adopters which results in quite the opposite. To me, the whole mining system looks like bull. Its like giving away lots of coins in first come first served basis. A currency shouldn't be given away like this, it will only lead to concentration of the wealth to a low percentage of people. This means that the original satoshi idea was flawed. Its right that we are experiencing something completely different than traditional fiat and we cant predict how things are going to be, but i dont see bitcoin expanding beyond a - gambling, trading and speculative niche market. if the mining system "looks like bull" you probably don't know enough about it. miners are always in competition with each other, and you can enter or exit the mining pool whenever you wish. not really first come, first served. --arepo Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: pandher on March 18, 2014, 04:15:15 PM Quote if the mining system "looks like bull" you probably don't know enough about it. miners are always in competition with each other, and you can enter or exit the mining pool whenever you wish. not really first come, first served. --arepo You probably didn't understand my question, i am actually talking about the early birds, not people with ASICS. And even if we talk about miners, why is so much precious energy being wasted to earn 0.00 of coins that a single person holds 5% of the total. The thing is that a currency should only be 'earned', not printed at home. Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: Asrael999 on March 18, 2014, 04:21:06 PM You are equating concentration of wealth - with centralization of control, they are slightly different things. Those fortunate few cannot create new bitcoins - nor can they exert control over the protocol, unless they sell coins to acquire significant volumes of mining equipment. They cannot create coins like a central bank, and they cannot influence the rate of coin supply without acquiring control of and then altering the protocol.
They can pressurise the price by selling coins, but the price could be pressurised by any major investment fund by pointing USD 1-5bn at Bitcoin and pressing buy or sell. To put that in perspective USD 5bn is just 0.0025% of Pimco's assets under management at the end of 2013. Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: arepo on March 18, 2014, 04:22:35 PM Quote if the mining system "looks like bull" you probably don't know enough about it. miners are always in competition with each other, and you can enter or exit the mining pool whenever you wish. not really first come, first served. You probably didn't understand my question, i am actually talking about the early birds, not people with ASICS. And even if we talk about miners, why is so much precious energy being wasted to earn 0.00 of coins that a single person holds 5% of the total. The thing is that a currency should only be 'earned', not printed at home. and again i can tell that you simply have a lack of understanding. i do not mean to be patronizing, at all -- you asked for constructive criticism! -- and it just seems now that you're moving the goalposts? you brought up miners in the OP... anyway, all i meant to say is don't think it's fair to characterize mining as first come, first serve. also, miners are securing the network, that's why they're being rewarded. the protocol rewards miners for making the payment system secure, so in this way they "earn" the bitcoins by providing a service to the bitcoin economy. edit: also, as if USD, the world's reserve currency, isn't just "printed at home [banks]" :D --arepo Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: RodeoX on March 18, 2014, 04:27:29 PM Inviting constructive criticism, please dont post one line replies that hold no meaningful points. Like the title of the thread? But seriously, you should search before posting. Your assertion has been made many times before and fully refuted by the fact that bitcoin is breaking out of it's shell. And has been for years now. Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: 5thStreetResearch on March 18, 2014, 05:23:57 PM Early adopters or anyone who wants to invest enough can hold large amounts of bitcoin and it still remains decentralized. Holding large amounts of bitcoin doesn't give you any sort of special voter rights, its not a stock, its an open source protocol.
Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: zimmah on March 19, 2014, 08:32:13 PM Inviting constructive criticism, please dont post one line replies that hold no meaningful points. So the question is, how do we picture Bitcoin as a decentralized revolution when a very high number of coins are hoarded by early adopters which results in quite the opposite. To me, the whole mining system looks like bull. Its like giving away lots of coins in first come first served basis. A currency shouldn't be given away like this, it will only lead to concentration of the wealth to a low percentage of people. This means that the original satoshi idea was flawed. Its right that we are experiencing something completely different than traditional fiat and we cant predict how things are going to be, but i dont see bitcoin expanding beyond a - gambling, trading and speculative niche market. why don't you create an altcoin with your own ideas and fix the flaws? also: You are equating concentration of wealth - with centralization of control, they are slightly different things. Those fortunate few cannot create new bitcoins - nor can they exert control over the protocol, unless they sell coins to acquire significant volumes of mining equipment. They cannot create coins like a central bank, and they cannot influence the rate of coin supply without acquiring control of and then altering the protocol. They can pressurise the price by selling coins, but the price could be pressurised by any major investment fund by pointing USD 1-5bn at Bitcoin and pressing buy or sell. To put that in perspective USD 5bn is just 0.0025% of Pimco's assets under management at the end of 2013. Most of the problems in today's world are directly or indirectly caused by the few persons who have the ability to literally print money, (the power to issue debt is also printing money, even if they aren't printing physical bills). It won't matter a lot if a few people have a lot of bitcoin, because once they spend them, they're spent, they can't simply print more. They could mine some more, but everyone can mine them, so the things are completely fair. But if i would print money, i'd be jailed, while if the feds print money, they don't get jailed. Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: pungopete468 on March 19, 2014, 10:49:31 PM The distribution of BTC wealth is actually spreading out; unlike other forms of money where the distribution is becoming more concentrated...
Check out this thread and donate to this guy if you like his work. Look at the distribution of coins since Jan of this year... https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=441336.0 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=441336.0) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- block# 281224 18/01/2014 num %noOut %dead %of tot %of act diff prev value %noOut %vdead %TotVal diff prev --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- = 0 23514852 0.00% 0.00% 90.4307% 0.00000 0.00% 0.00% 0.0000% 0.00000 = 1 satoshi (0.00000001 BTC) 404312 38.39% 8.86% 1.5549% 16.25% 0.00404 38.39% 8.86% 0.0000% 0.00000 > 1 satoshi <= 0.001 BTC ( ~1$ ) 886869 82.60% 30.55% 3.4106% 35.64% 176.95828 74.42% 10.98% 0.0014% 0.00000 > 0.001 BTC <= 0.1 BTC 727172 69.70% 9.69% 2.7965% 29.22% 15250.72224 74.92% 14.46% 0.1242% 0.00000 > 0.1 BTC <= 1 BTC 245947 70.84% 9.14% 0.9458% 9.88% 113788.15782 76.08% 11.52% 0.9268% 0.00000 > 1 BTC <= 5 BTC 98078 68.58% 9.46% 0.3772% 3.94% 240217.18620 70.37% 9.93% 1.9565% 0.00000 > 5 BTC <= 10 BTC 30908 72.21% 8.58% 0.1189% 1.24% 240951.40354 74.20% 8.57% 1.9625% 0.00000 > 10 BTC <= 25 BTC 24705 69.96% 8.99% 0.0950% 0.99% 411468.88705 71.48% 9.18% 3.3513% 0.00000 > 25 BTC <= 50 BTC 50080 92.92% 74.48% 0.1926% 2.01% 2325632.07964 94.55% 79.65% 18.9415% 0.00000 > 50 BTC <= 75 BTC 4493 71.56% 16.76% 0.0173% 0.18% 267891.63258 71.06% 15.27% 2.1819% 0.00000 > 75 BTC <= 100 BTC 5528 82.31% 8.27% 0.0213% 0.22% 521398.01969 83.32% 8.35% 4.2466% 0.00000 > 100 BTC <= 500 BTC 7622 70.62% 8.57% 0.0293% 0.31% 1700607.80414 72.06% 9.23% 13.8509% 0.00000 > 500 btc <= 1000 BTC 1482 74.22% 6.75% 0.0057% 0.06% 1142898.58759 76.01% 7.01% 9.3085% 0.00000 > 1000 BTC 1120 66.79% 10.62% 0.0043% 0.05% 5297668.25895 69.43% 6.39% 43.1478% 0.00000 Total Actives 2488316 69.82% 18.22% 9.5693% 100.00% 12277949.70148 76.04% 21.26% 100.0000% 0.00000 Total 26003168 6.68% 1.74% 100.0000% 12277949.70148 76.04% 21.26% 100.0000% 0.00000 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- block# 290455 13/03/2014 num %noOut %dead %of tot %of act diff prev value %noOut %vdead %TotVal diff prev --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- = 0 27988899 0.00% 0.00% 91.2040% 95829 0.00000 0.00% 0.00% 0.0000% 0.00000 = 1 satoshi (0.00000001 BTC) 404226 38.46% 8.87% 1.3172% 14.98% 116 0.00404 38.46% 8.87% 0.0000% 0.00000 > 1 satoshi <= 0.001 BTC ( ~1$ ) 960400 81.72% 28.19% 3.1295% 35.58% 3290 205.46665 72.92% 9.38% 0.0016% 0.53271 > 0.001 BTC <= 0.1 BTC 801923 68.62% 8.70% 2.6131% 29.71% 4503 16643.93961 73.09% 13.10% 0.1331% 125.91011 > 0.1 BTC <= 1 BTC 279701 70.15% 7.91% 0.9114% 10.36% -417 128703.60240 75.62% 10.03% 1.0289% -195.34508 > 1 BTC <= 5 BTC 115620 68.61% 7.85% 0.3768% 4.28% 149 281142.09035 70.40% 8.31% 2.2476% -48.72786 > 5 BTC <= 10 BTC 34479 71.96% 7.48% 0.1124% 1.28% -136 268161.60199 73.99% 7.49% 2.1438% -992.15838 > 10 BTC <= 25 BTC 27132 69.95% 7.96% 0.0884% 1.01% -246 449792.35866 71.40% 8.18% 3.5958% -4386.27554 > 25 BTC <= 50 BTC 54919 93.03% 67.55% 0.1790% 2.03% 108 2549675.80086 94.66% 72.27% 20.3832% 7448.90613 > 50 BTC <= 75 BTC 4685 70.54% 15.88% 0.0153% 0.17% -27 279575.04900 70.06% 14.44% 2.2350% -1522.37268 > 75 BTC <= 100 BTC 5675 83.24% 7.68% 0.0185% 0.21% -16 535713.99474 84.25% 7.76% 4.2827% -1448.45178 > 100 BTC <= 500 BTC 7937 70.52% 7.41% 0.0259% 0.29% 6 1806340.51304 72.78% 7.95% 14.4406% 1141.27544 > 500 btc <= 1000 BTC 1537 74.17% 6.18% 0.0050% 0.06% 5 1190338.68540 76.17% 6.45% 9.5161% 4683.98318 > 1000 BTC 1102 66.61% 7.89% 0.0036% 0.04% -1 5002431.02187 68.14% 4.48% 39.9915% -757.28839 Total Actives 2699336 69.52% 16.72% 8.7960% 100.00% 7334 12508724.12833 76.09% 19.70% 100.0000% 4049.98787 Total 30688235 6.11% 1.47% 100.0000% 103163 12508724.12833 76.09% 19.70% 100.0000% 4049.98787 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The number of wallets with 1,000+ XBT have decreased substantially. From Jan 18 the distribution of wealth in this category decreased by 3% while nearly every other area increased. Most of the 1,000+ XBT wallets are in cold storage so breaking them down into multiple different smaller wallets isn't very likely or desirable. More people are buying in and those who own the most coins aren't hoarding them... Give it a few years and you won't be looking at the same distribution. Compare that to any centrally controlled system and you will see that they are becoming increasingly biased towards the wealthy... Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: CurbsideProphet on March 19, 2014, 10:57:02 PM Inviting constructive criticism, please dont post one line replies that hold no meaningful points. So the question is, how do we picture Bitcoin as a decentralized revolution when a very high number of coins are hoarded by early adopters which results in quite the opposite. To me, the whole mining system looks like bull. Its like giving away lots of coins in first come first served basis. A currency shouldn't be given away like this, it will only lead to concentration of the wealth to a low percentage of people. This means that the original satoshi idea was flawed. Its right that we are experiencing something completely different than traditional fiat and we cant predict how things are going to be, but i dont see bitcoin expanding beyond a - gambling, trading and speculative niche market. First off, Bitcoin is a proof of work, there's no giving it away. Second, how else would you have it done? It's no different than the early days of the gold rush, the miners who got there first got more shiny rocks than those that came thereafter. The only other alternative is something like Ripple where everything is pre-mined and given out a small bit at a time but then you have a central authority doing the distribution. I don't see any way to make distribution perfectly fair. Life isn't fair. Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: gannicus on March 19, 2014, 11:39:55 PM The problem with bitcoins are not the hoarders, spending bitcoin like idiots will not change it and make bitcoin become mainstream. What bitcoin needs is easier ways to convert it quickly into fiat money, which is which most people care about nowadays, regardless if you like it or not. If someone who has never heard of bitcoin wants to buy bitcoin today he or she must register in some exchange, send documents, wait confirmation, send deposit, wait confirmation, buy it, and transfer to the wallet. If someone wants to sell it, it is even worse, because the person must also do all this and hope for the money to arrive to his bank account. The real "bottleneck" of the bitcoin economy relies on 2 or 3 big exchanges which all the connection fiat-crypto happens, added to a few spare ATM around the world where people can at most buy bitcoin for a price much above the spot. Take gold for example. People hoard gold, banks probably are storaging a huge fraction of all the gold, but this does not matter to make gold "mainstream", because gold can be bought and sold easily around the world, which is not the case of bitcoin today. You may love bitcoin and have a thousand reasons to defend it like I do, but you all must admit that there is no practical way to trade (and when I say trade it is buy AND sell) bitcoins today and to make it worse one of the biggest exchanges just went bankrupt weeks ago. You may come and give me thousands of small bitcoins business that allow people to trade them quickly (I particularlly don't know any, but I suppose they exist) but that's still the problem - they are small, no one knows them, and that's why bitcoin is still unable to "break its shell". This shell will be broken the day I can buy and sell it quickly and with a huge depth on the buy and sell side.
Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: cbutters on March 20, 2014, 03:06:42 AM "gold will never be a good store of value because only gold miners have gold.... If gold were to be adopted only people who mine gold would be rewarded, therefore gold will never become a good store of value...."
Do you not realize how ridiculous this sounds? over time mining is less and less relevant.... as the mining shrinks until it is gone, and the bitcoin will flow out into the hands of many. Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: Bonam on March 20, 2014, 06:38:27 PM Quote So the question is, how do we picture Bitcoin as a decentralized revolution when a very high number of coins are hoarded by early adopters which results in quite the opposite. To me, the whole mining system looks like bull. Its like giving away lots of coins in first come first served basis. A currency shouldn't be given away like this, it will only lead to concentration of the wealth to a low percentage of people. This means that the original satoshi idea was flawed. Miners aren't just given bitcoins for the heck of it, rather, people operating mining hardware are what allows the bitcoin network to function. Even after the block reward is zero, miners will continue to make money off transaction fees (assuming that BTC is successful). There has to be an incentive for people/businesses to process bitcoins. Title: Re: Bitcoin will be unable to break its shell Post by: CurbsideProphet on March 20, 2014, 07:25:48 PM The problem with bitcoins are not the hoarders, spending bitcoin like idiots will not change it and make bitcoin become mainstream. What bitcoin needs is easier ways to convert it quickly into fiat money, which is which most people care about nowadays, regardless if you like it or not. If someone who has never heard of bitcoin wants to buy bitcoin today he or she must register in some exchange, send documents, wait confirmation, send deposit, wait confirmation, buy it, and transfer to the wallet. If someone wants to sell it, it is even worse, because the person must also do all this and hope for the money to arrive to his bank account. The real "bottleneck" of the bitcoin economy relies on 2 or 3 big exchanges which all the connection fiat-crypto happens, added to a few spare ATM around the world where people can at most buy bitcoin for a price much above the spot. Take gold for example. People hoard gold, banks probably are storaging a huge fraction of all the gold, but this does not matter to make gold "mainstream", because gold can be bought and sold easily around the world, which is not the case of bitcoin today. You may love bitcoin and have a thousand reasons to defend it like I do, but you all must admit that there is no practical way to trade (and when I say trade it is buy AND sell) bitcoins today and to make it worse one of the biggest exchanges just went bankrupt weeks ago. You may come and give me thousands of small bitcoins business that allow people to trade them quickly (I particularlly don't know any, but I suppose they exist) but that's still the problem - they are small, no one knows them, and that's why bitcoin is still unable to "break its shell". This shell will be broken the day I can buy and sell it quickly and with a huge depth on the buy and sell side. I agree with what you're saying but it's all baby steps right now. Sure it's not as convenient as it needs to be to convert fiat to Bitcoin but that's why the infrastructure needs improving. If you look back even a year ago you can see the improvements and the capital flowing in. Things won't change overnight you just need to look at the overall trend and decide if it's going in the right direction. Bitcoin right now is all about foresight, people need to get away from the "early adopter" or "missed the train" mindset, we're still very much in the infancy of Bitcoin's potential. |