Bitcoin Forum

Would the collapse of a Ponzi scheme effect the price of Bitcoin?
Though a hypothesis that the collapse of the Chinese Plustoken, a classic Ponzi scheme similar to bitconnect or countless others affected the price of Bitcoin, this seem to be accceptible although it's unlikely to be the major factor but distribution of stolen funds correlate very well with market downturns.

scams always collapse and so far we have had many scams some big and some small and they have all collapsed and none of them have ever had any effects on bitcoin price other than some small newbie panics and sells. because even though some of these scams may be big but they are not big enough in comparison to the bitcoin market size. not to mention that these scammers unload their stolen coins away from exchanges to avoid being tracked.

Ponzi scams with the volume of plustoken or onecoin, are capable enough to temporarily impact the price of bitcoin or any other crypto assets for real!

Plustoken has siphoned out around 2 billion dollars woth crypto assets and onecoin is estimated at 4 billion dollars! With this kind of volume in hand, if they start selling their assets in the open market, it will certainly flood the market where the demand remains constant! So the price will certainly come down for a specific time. So definitely a temporary effect will be seen!

Having said that, such effects are very unlikely to last longer!

not really, because not all use bitcoin, for example they use their own tokens or altcoins, if all exchanges don't add their tokens and altcoins on exchanges with BTC pairs, I think it will be safe, if you see some people maybe using bitcoin but Dumper will not happen, because the BTC they have may not be many of the big holders that have existed since 2010, so in my opinion there is not much influence with the price of bitcoin if there is a closure of the Ponzi scheme site

That is the truth when they are able to scam billions of dollars worth of BTCitcoin they will be looking to sell over the counter to avoid unwanted attraction by sending those coins to the exchanges but i am sure the coins will be tracked by chainalysis and other companies who are monitoring these movements and since these coins will not reach the public exchanges i am not expecting a huge price drop when they start selling the coins as millions of coins are trading outside the exchange on a daily basis.

Of course, if the money involved gets moved as transactioned by selling immediatly the gains achieved from the pronzi scheme.
Price would go down eventually as buy price would become lower and lower due to the demand becoming lesser as there would be more coins on the market.

That's because when you invest into such pronzi you are basically getting the gains from other people that invested in your place.
It creates a pronzi in such a way as basically when you buy bitcoin on the market. You are influenting market's price.

Everything is linked at same way since money is being converted from virtual to fiat.

Of course they have an effect, regardless how big or small the bitcoin-related ponzi scheme is. But of course, the size of the effect would also depend on the size of the ponzi scheme. Most of the time the effect is simply just unnoticeable. And yes, even though the scammers would sell the bitcoins outside centralized exchanges to prevent tying up their name to the coins, it still has an indirect effect on prices. Because if a certain ponzi scheme didn't exist(regardless of size), there would technically be less selling pressure on the markets.

It certainly has an effect, but whether it is significant or not depends on how long the project lasts.
Ponzi always uses the situation when bitcoin is dropping. After that, the Ponzi project will be destroyed by itself.

Most cases ponzi will end, because it has no definite product enlisted to it. This was all the currency who paid by itself and the new registered investors will pay for those old one. Particular members has no assurance with this scheme but eventually be broken down, when sudden business problem will occur badly.

Most have already said it. Ponzi schemes may impact the market in the short run, but the market knows that this impact is an irregularity. An alien factor. The market then proceeds to regulate or stabilize the market slowly, but surely. Ponzi schemes may scam thousands of users and may obtain millions of dollars worth of coins, but in the end, they'd still have to return it to the market, and they don't have an unlimited supply of it. A long term effect only happens if the ponzi scam actually lasts for lets say 10 years or so.

technically, everything affects supply and demand (and thus price)---even little fish like you and me. it's just a matter of how much value we're talking. 1 BTC sold on an exchange will hardly affect price. but 25k BTC or more? that could definitely have an effect in such an illiquid market.

the flip side is the plus token scheme pumped/propped up the market too. people bought billions of dollars worth of BTC and ETH to deposit into it. that must have had an effect on spot prices.

It is a scam so it won't be successful right?
I mean they will really collapse. That is their goal. To just vanish away out of thin air.

Well, I have seen a lot of scam projects and yet it doesn't even move bitcoin to a greater amount in value although the name is being dragged and those who cannot swallow it will just withdrew.
That may be the reason for the dumps that had been happening with bitcoin. But still, not in a large scale.

It certainly affect depend on how many volumes got by the Ponzi creator and if they accumulate large volume it can give a huge impact to the price of btc since those huge dump could create a massive upset to the price and to the emotion of the holders that's why we can see those panic sellers and market downfall.

But we shouldn't get panic since everything will be regain back since there's always a price bounce when bitcoin is cheap remember there are many whales who want to accumulate cheap bitcoins and they will pump it up for their gains.

That would even make bitcoin stronger because when we say the ponzi will collapse, it simply means that people are already matured.
Ponzi schemes are only successful due to people investing in crypto with lack of knowledge but eventually as bitcoin continues to exist, people get to know it better as the government are also recognizing it already and hopefully will fully regulate soon.

The pinnacle of the ponzi scheme at a time when the price of bitcoin is soaring is that scamer always has to do anything to get a lot of bitcoin, of course the ponzi scheme always involves bitcoin and other big coins, but I think it will not affect the price because the ponzi scheme always ends in catching up .
So the price of bitcoin will not be influenced by the ponzi scheme.

Ponzi Schemes would collapse but would later on rising again with their new strategy. It will surely affect Bitcoin positively and negatively. There will always be scams and fake projects and the best thing that we can do is to get rid of it. We can't deny the fact that Ponzi schemes would always exist where there is an opportunity to earn.

It has an effect, yes, but it's limited. It isn't like how hot weapons affected the entire world permanently, but rather how an artist dies affects the world, it's temporary. No matter how huge the scheme is, it would still be limited by the time it could actually be in effect. That, or if Ponzi schemes transcended and they actually affected the concept of BTC or any other crypto for that matter, which is pretty much close to impossible. Ponzi schemes collapse when the market has gotten over the scheme and has regulated and stabilized itself.

It won't Directly affect the price of bitcoin but these things are really notorious and are really spoiling the name of bitcoin and Cryptocurrencies at whole. These things make people worried about their investments and also make governments worried about bitcoin. How will any country decide to incorporate crypto in their financial system when on one side numerous scam go on with such currencies.
Well I feel most of the altcoins who have raised money from the public in form of ICO and are not working on their product are also scam. Because they are merely showing that they are working by updating their social media channels regularly in reality there is nothing going on behind the curtains and this type or currencies contribute to around 30% of market.

Temporary and not permanently this is the effect of such Ponzi events that had caused the price of Bitcoin to fluctuate but I think it is not that a big of a change because the price of Bitcoin is still moving in a direction basically a good one,

I think the Ponzi scheme will just become more relevant as the Bitcoin progresses its price year by year, people will just have intentions to just get what they want and I think this issue will not fade away and as long as there is Bitcoin criminal will continue to get their hands on it.

It doesn't matter if they continue to rise they will still gonna fall once they are all busted. So far there are lots of scam projects has been down but Bitcoin is less likely affected with it. Once the investors are dried out with these scammers they will no longer going to exist but sad to say scammers will always find their way to take advantage of those investors.

Not always the outcome and price of btc can be affected if the said funds of said schemes are way too big enough to affect the entire market.
Yes, we have seen in the past on how Bitconnect scam do affect but it isnt really that a serious thing to think of yet price can anytime
recover after such event.Talking about ponzi scheme rates, i can say that they are much more lesser that this year but not totally being shutted down.

Well, there could be one way of affecting the bitcoin price which would be the scammers selling their bitcoin to fiat currency and running away with it?

However, that doesn't equal to a "ponzi schemes equals bitcoin drop" type of deal, that is not how it works. It "may" affect the price, but it all also depends on how much people are hyped and want to buy, you can sell 1 billion dollars worth of bitcoin all at once but then as long as there are people who would like to buy 1 billion dollars + 1 dollars the price will go up.

Numbers were just made up for a bigger and more easily understandable example, of course nobody can sell 1 billion dollars worth of bitcoin but even if they do, we won't be buying that much back that quickly. Plus, even if ponzis sell their coins, we eventually buy it back so it is not in their hands anymore and we would be safe.

When we talk about ponzi schemes, most were related with bitcoin for the promotion purpose. Some understand it in the right way that there is no relation between bitcoin and the ponzi. Some receives a misinterpretation which is the cause for having some bad image for bitcoin from the common people who are much interested into bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies investments.

depending on the scale, a ponzi scheme as large as a plustoken can cause speculators to panic for each of their large fund transfers, and eventually sell large chunks some time afterwards. Scam businesses like this have never been seen selling every small part because of activities that are always tracked. even if most of the funds are sold in ethereum and cause bitcoin to rally a small increase. But speculators understand that it only lasts a while before finally falling sharper.

Humans are constantly trying to explain everything around them. That's why when price rises or falls, they desperately search for the nearest news event in an attempt to understand what happened.

So when price spiked above $10K in October, it must have been the Chinese president hyping up "blockchain" that caused it, right? And now that price dumped to further lows, everyone is latching onto this Plus Token scam. So predictable!

Do these events affect price? Sure. Are they the ultimate cause? No. Supply and demand is way more complex than that. A lot of traders and investors are taking profit or shorting the market for the same reason the Plus Token scammers are cashing out. That's what you do after an explosive rally: you take profits and hedge cash value.

Every month new Bitcoins are mined and sold on the market which creates a downwards pressure. Something like a ponzi dump can increase this pressure and make the price drop but does it really matter?

For every sold coin there's a buyer. Don't think that when somebody is dumping he's throwing the coins away. People are ready to buy at every level and the greater the dump the more buyers there will be. Short-term price doesn't matter!

We're currently building the foundation and launch pad for the next rally. So enjoy while it lasts.

The effect would be minimal and I think we're done seeing that. When these scammers start selling the stolen bitcoins, there are investors that are already automatically waiting for a sudden dip for which they jave conducted an auto buy order.

This is the cycle and it will be an unstoppable cycle.

I think the collapse of a Ponzi scheme will affect the price of bitcoin but it's not much. There will be some panic investors and sellers but they are not the majority of investors in the cryptocurrency market.
In the history of the cryptocurrency market, I've seen hundreds of scams, typically bitconnect, but the market is still standing and growing.
Bitcoin is a strong currency and I believe that people still believe in bitcoin despite hundreds of ponzi scams.

It would definitely affect the price of Bitcoin (Crypto Ponzi scheme collapsing)  in a good way.  Many had stayed away from Bitcoin because of this scam company.   Once it is routed and the integrity of cryptocurrency is established, it will definitely attract more investors and enthusiast in crypto community thus creating more demands for Bitcoin and as a result it will affect Bitcoin market positively.

There are different Ponzi scheme in existence, some will never have an influence on bitcoin because it is in no way attached to bitcoin.
There are ways in which some bitcoin traders have made bitcoin Ponzi in many countries, the run their trade with those who doesn't even know how it is done, they get money from them trade with it. That also has very little way of affecting bitcoin. If only the trader is very wealthy in bitcoin.then, they have influence on the price.
The Chinese plustoken is well attached to bitcoin and it's high effect on bitcoin is not least expected.

Scams like Ponzi schemes are unlikely to affect Bitcoin significantly. To put it differently, do regular scams, let's call them dollar-only, affect the dollar valuation when they close the shop? Apparently, not. But it is essentially the same with Bitcoin as these shops don't affect or undermine the cryptocurrency infrastructure itself. However, this is not the case with cryptocurrency exchanges, especially the biggest ones. If Bitfinex was able to push the prices up many times all the way to 20k, it should also work in reverse as well, and it does indeed

The bottom line is that we should care about semi-legit exchanges, not so much about outright Ponzi schemes

I think the current decline in bitcoin has nothing to do with the fall of the Plustoken Ponzi scheme. because the tokens do not pair directly with bitcoin. there is a possibility that some of the investors will move their assets to bitcoin but that value will not be too large, so it will not have an impact on the price of bitcoin. because the bitcoin market is bigger and stronger. bitcoin decline is now common.

collapse in what way  ? when they are destroyed and got busted  ? or collapse when the investors put in thier money and it suddenly declared as  a scam  ?   either way , both can still affect the price of bitcoin   .

the first one can affect the price in a good way because if ponzi's got busted , people will now only invest on the original btc but if people got scam by a ponzi  , chances are people will scared to invest in crypto related stuffs such as bitcoin

Did the collapse of PlusToken really affected the bitcoin price?
Is there any proof into it?

We are all just speculating here that it did but we ain't really sure.
We are just looking for a reason of every dump and pumps that is happening all over every crypto currencies.
Some says it was Ethereum which was affected the most but looking at its value there is not much changes at all.

I guess we could say, it doesn't really bother the value.

There was some speculation, but I don't think that the price will be affected long term.


Again, we have seen a lot of Ponzi scheme in the past, billions worth, but BTC still remains dominant as it used to be. Because investors really know that bitcoin is the best investment and not those Ponzi scheme. It could impact the price, but not so much in the long run.

Well, it could be temporarily. Besides it would depend on how huge the allocated cyptos are. Indirectly speaking, many people avoid crypto currency because of these circumstances they are being prevented by fear of losing money with this fraudulent ambitions. Thus, potential crypto enthusiast, might be a trader or investor gone decreasing because of this. What I mean, is the potentiality.

It happen in past maybe, when double investment site really popular. Bitcoin price really down, but don't know because of that or anything else. But i still remember a lot of ponzi sites appear and with it's promo and then end, 1 end, the others come. Maybe after that people really aware with something like that. Maybe only a few player which still make investment in that kind of sites.

That will definitely create a market distortion but it is one that will be very short lived so there is no reason to worry and if anything it could be a good chance for those that are looking to buy bitcoin for the best possible price to take advantage of the situation and accumulate as much bitcoin as their capital allows them, you should always be looking at everything that happens as an opportunity and try to see how you can benefit out of it and that would be a great opportunity to buy bitcoin.

When Bitcoin change owner on long term nothing changes. There is not any more Bitcoins in existence. So there is no reason price on longterm should be any different. It can be different on long term because of FUD.

What does ponzi scheme has to do with the price of bitcoin? Your title was kind of misleading. At the first glance, I thought you were comparing bitcoin to a ponzi scheme (like those people who regret not investing on bitcoin when the price was low and now is trying to spread hate) and I was about to bash you.
If you are talking about everyday ponzi scheme, then no it won't affect the price of bitcoin. If you are talking about those ponzi scheme taking place in the crypto world, then yeah. It might affect the price of bitcoin depending on how much they were able to scam off people.

Ponzi schemes will always be there even without the presence of bitcoin. In my opinion, it should not affect the price of bitcoin unless they are directly related with bitcoin and the money involved is huge that it can make a wave in the current trading price. But then again, there will always be like this no matter what. Scammers trying to empty your pockets.

Though not it affects the price directly but it gives doubts to the people leaving to have some worries and may stop them from trust in investing crypto.
Ponzi scheme will always exist in the matter that they could still find a whole in crypto and the bad thing is that they could still have found a victim for this. May this kind of trick is a part of crypto journey, it is in our part to know about it and not being caught. 

If they’re holding bunch of BTC’s then they could likely dip the market a bit but its effect to market is only temporary just like other ponzi’s that dumped their stash. If same scenario happen in the future its like another ordinary day in crypto.

in my opinion does not affect the fall in the price of bitcoin. I knew Bitcoin in 2014 and at that time there were a lot of Ponzi schemes. but prices keep going up. the falling bitcoin price factor is the fact that bitcoin has not yet been received in major countries. besides that because the market is indeed in a bearish pattern.

Ponzi schemes will not stop the growth of bitcoin but it will tarnish the image for new investors. People are more cautious these days compared to previous years. But altcoin ponzi schemes have started to come into light where teams just escape with all the investments. Regulations on new projects may prove effective in stopping these things.

Bitcoin is not a ponzie scheme like Bitconnect that people needs to convince you this is a good investment, or implies the promise of future returns. Bitcoin promises no such thing. In a pyramid scheme new investment is paid to previous investors. If investment stops in a pyramid scheme the entire thing collapses to zero. BTC acts just like a stock, If investment stops in BTC it's value simply stops rising, if people sell, it goes down. Thereby it cannot become a pyramid scheme technically, but it can become like a crappy stock.

Let me allay your fears that the colapse of ponzi scheme has no any effect on the price of bitcoin, so many ponzi schemes had been bankrupt in the past remember the popular MMM ponzi scheme at a stage they deployed bitcoin as a means of payment it eventually collapse whatever amount of bitcoin transferred or stolen between the participants has no significant effect on the price of bitcoin.

Bitcoin is a Ponzi scheme.  Anything based on artificial scarcity is a Keynesian scam by default.  As per the Aristotle definition, money is required to be a physical commodity rescource.  Plato claimed money can be an imaginary widget, but Plato was an authoritarian statist who believed the state should control and run everything.  

So Bitcoin doesn't even make sense when Plato's only reason for making imaginary widgets money was to give the state more power.  That's what eventually does happen in Bitcoin too, though.  Because tokens are non-fungible and transaction validators are designed to centralized, making it a permissioned ledger, Chinese social credit score, cashless society slavery system that abolishes the 5th amendment with everything you do being tracked and monitored in real-time.  Good work, slaves.

They are not bankrupt they just simply turned scam and run away the money of their investors that's why we see them stop their operations but actually it has affect since it could create a massive sell off and just imagine if they got millions of dollars stole and sell it instantly it create a price downwards and maybe it could create chain reaction to the panic sellers.

Although yes, but will be a little. Because supply of bitcoin is really a lot. And people who do ponzi maybe like people who trade in market and i think it is only little amount from total circulation of bitcoin. But maybe if a big exchange, hacked and all sell into BTC, maybe it really can affect. Because people's belief get affected too.

How's artificial scarcity any different from any other scarcity?

Regardless, if we follow your logic through (or whoever you took this idea from), then any money is "a Keynesian scam by default" for the simple reason money could function as money only if it is a store of value. When money loses such capacity, it stops being money (as the example of the Zimbabwean dollar has clearly shown). But being a store of value necessarily requires being scarce, as something abundant cannot be a store of value simply because it doesn't have any market value (read, there is nothing to store)

Bitcoin is a store of value if nothing we have to put on, it is simply dying. However, it isn't the way it looks like cause many people are still in trusting Bitcoin and store their money on it as a currency instead of the future use.
And if we think that this is just a pyramid scheme or any scamming issue, supposedly it never takes 10 years to exist but rather to see it collapse long time ago.

anyone remember the biggest scam in crypto?
zenhash cloudmining, ? XPY.

they are legal company, have "real miner hardware" and selling it in global market, but right now is scam.
i think anything in bitcoin ecosystem can turned into scam even bitcoin its self.

after all bitcoin get mined, i dont think bitcoin can survive, because the cost to running will be amazing, and the transaction will be slowly.

Ponzi will always be there, searching for people who don't want to search for knowledge or information. They will get trap in the Ponzi scheme without they realize if that is true or not. We will see a new type of Ponzi because the Ponzi scheme will always change following the trend, and the Ponzi scheme will try to get as many people as it can to get their money. So you need to be careful and always search for the news from the other source.

Scams are everywhere, I see scams that collapsed multiple times already but I don’t see any effects on bitcoin. Well, I guess it will put bitcoin on the lighter note which may results to more investors but I don’t see much of an effect on it. Bitcoin price moves unpredictably with no specific clue what made it move like it was and scams collapsing it may give a positive impact on bitcoin.

everyone is newbie in first time learning anything. no body  born in a pro state  ;D
bitcoin rising price is the reason way more people fall in ponzi scheme, they see bitcoin rising price from $10 to $19.000, then they want profit lie it too.

Its value may be determined according to the greater fool theory but it's definitely not a Ponzi scheme. ::)


Who cares what some ancient dead guy thought? In this day and age, we apparently value digital commodities too.

Humans have always evolved both in thought and in life. We should respect what is left behind, not indifferent, inherited and promoted. But in this case, clearly it is an outdated thought, in an era where all transactions are possible on the internet, it doesn't have to be a physical supply of goods, but, in my opinion,  it has to show the same power as physical goods to survive.

Well, that actually depends on your point of view

If we assume that the defining criterion of a Ponzi scheme is paying profits to earlier investors with the funds obtained from more recent investors (as per (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme) Wikipedia, no plagiarism intended), Bitcoin fits this definition pretty well, at least as far as its speculative part is concerned (which is the best part of it anyway). You can only earn dough by buying coins at a lower price and then dumping them on someone else at a higher price

Ponzi scheme can’t be stop, there will be more like this but on a different system. Bitcoin should not be affected by this one, bitcoin should continue to grow despite on those scammers, and investors should focus on the best system which is bitcoin, ponzi scheme will never succeed if people are well educated, this is the main problem.

Ponzi and bitcoin has ALWAYS been hand in hand, there is no worry about ponzi somehow destroying bitcoin because we have seen ponzi schemes as early as 2013 if I am not wrong, definitely could be one beforehand as well but the earliest I remember was 2013.

The biggest back in the day I remember was a cloud mining company, I zenhash or something if I am not wrong because those guys sold hashes to people and people bought it and it was super profitable for everyone involved and in the end it turned out they were just paying from the money they were getting and eventually they had to stop since they couldn't sustain it (no ponzi can). So in 2020, we will see a lot of ponzi, we will see a lot of bad people stealing bitcoins and selling them, none of that will affect the prize at all.

I don't think a Ponzi scheme can grow that big, to the point of crash the market. I mean to take down bitcoin or send it up you need a really big amount of money. If the get that money for sure they can withdraw it all and send the price down, but as i say, is hard for a ponzy to get that amounts.

A Ponzi scheme is an actual investment scheme. It promises returns on investment (which Bitcoin does not) and requires that the operator collect investments and dispense profits.

You're basically just describing the activity of speculation. Under your definition, gold and fine art seem like they would be Ponzi schemes too.


That's literally what the greater fool theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory) means, and it applies to all assets, not just BTC. Ponzi schemes are much more specific.

The problem is not like that, the original development of Ponzi was due to a lack of user understanding of some currencies, it became a form of fraud through profitability that would attract many investors without knowing this model. But recently, people have become more aware, but Ponzi still exists in many forms. The specific cause is the participants themselves, they take the risk and take part in it the way they gamble. Profits can come with first people or no one. A game of chance

The image of the bitcoin got tarnished because of the scammers who are using it for ponzi scheme. There are now many victims of this kind of shit investment. Government in my country always reminding the citizens in order to avoid this kind of scam investment. We can avoid fraud investment like ponzi scheme if we have knowledge about what we are doing. Newbies should not believe to the bitcoin investments that offering high returns in short period of time.

I expected that you would come up with something along these lines

Not you personally of course but you as anyone supporting your point collectively. That's why I said beforehand that it depends on your point of view. But there's even more to my point than you probably think (read, it is more substantiated than it appears at first glance). You say that under my definition, gold and fine art could be considered Ponzi schemes as well. But this is a wrong assumption, and here's the distinction which allows to clearly and reliably separate the wheat from the chaff, so to speak

Both gold and fine arts have wide uses outside speculation. Put differently, it is far from the pristine "buy low, sell high" paradigm. More than 50% of gold is used as jewelry which has little to do with speculation. Jewelry is not bought with the goal of selling it later, so in this way it is a type of final goods. The same with fine arts. Collectors are looking into their art value, while their speculative value only coming from this worth. This is not the case with Bitcoin which is thoroughly speculative and mostly used with that paradigm in mind (read, speculation)

We already know that the Plustoken scam ponzi is what caused the price of BTC to decline. They did analysis of the large movement of coins from those ponzi wallet owners and they determined that BTC usually declined in a similar time span.

Its no different than the Bitconnect ponzi that popped back in Q1 2018. Its actually what started the bear market, people heard about the Ponzi and assumed the all crypto is a ponzi and people stopped investing or they pulled their money out.

The plustoken ponzi was generally only Chinese oriented and they basically had people on the street trying to get people to invest. These were retail people who never heard of bitcoin. And they actually had to make an account at an exchange, buy BTC with their money and then buy the Plustoken. So its one speculation that we went from $3100 to $14000 due to the Plustoken retail demand buying BTC.

isn't it the other way around?

the bitcoin/altcoin bubbles popped, which killed demand for BCC and caused bitconnect investors to pull their money out. that caused bitconnect to collapse under its own weight.

Read the news about it, Plus token creators estimated to hold over 200,000 btc and regularly dumped it to the market since August when the price of bitcoin above $10K.
They run away with over $3 Billion dollars in cryptocurrencies, specifically bitcoin, ethereum, and EOS.
Oh yes, to avoid being tracked, they use the mixer service before sent it to exchanges.

Analysts have now uncovered that these scammers are still dumping their cryptocurrency holdings on the market. According to Ergo (@ErgoBTC), the amount of Bitcoin the group holds may even be over 200,000 BTC. Assuming all the known mixed BTC has been sold off from early August, that brings the average at around 1,300 BTC sold per day.

Given that around 1,800 BTC is mined per day, that’s around 72 percent of daily mining rewards being sold off by PLUS daily.

https://i.imgur.com/8WNLUNR.png
source (https://beincrypto.com/plus-token-scammers-dumping-1300-bitcoins-on-the-market-daily/)

Definitely it will affect Bitcoin market price negatively most expecially if the Ponzi scheme are with the use of Bitcoin and crypto currency. You see for yourself when the numbers of ICO turned Scam people lost trust in them and stay away from investing in such business and that action by investors had negative effect on Bitcoin price and that crypto currency market in general.

Something bad that happenned in crypto not only have negative impact for market. Usually if there are a lot of bad things that happened, people will generalized what is bitcoin and think if bitcoin is only ponzi scheme. And make the others afraid even to know it or maybe make investment in it.  And negative impact because of that is worse.

Someone must have shared some misinformation to the public if that's what they've been thinking about of bitcoin. At some point ponzi scheme and scams might have affected the bitcoin price. But i think it's not that too strong to make the bitcoin market suffer for the wrong information that's been shared by the others.

As usual where Bitcoin would really end up on getting involved when it comes to scams and other ponzis- which media do even give out negative publicity towards it which do worsen up the situation
but as we can see where bitcoin havent affected much and these dumps and fluctuations are just being part of its growth.We wont see any low levels soon it might not be a guarantee but
at least we do see that theres such demand.

And there is a high chance we will not see any affect at all even if it happened, the volume of bitcoin is huge, the ponzi scheme will need to be enormous to cause any effect on bitcoin but at the same time if the project was so big we will know about it and its impending doom so it will not take us by surprise decreasing the effect that such a ponzi scheme could have on us, all in all I do not think any ponzi scheme will have any lasting effect on this market regardless of how big the scheme is.

If it’s a major Ponzi scheme using Bitcoin then yes it would have an affect on Bitcoin price. This would also be the case for a problem with a major exchange such as MtGox or Cryptsy.

Isn't that the rule in getting profit on trading?  Buying at a lower price and selling at a higher price?  If bitcoin falls into that, pretty much all of things that is sold in the market  falls under it.  Like gold, silver etc.  

Perhaps in the short term, if the scheme is very widespread and there is millions of investors.

However in the long run there should be no tangible effects on bitcoin's development nor price. We've seen the collapse of Bitconnect and that I think did not even trigger any short term detrimental effects let alone any long term ones.

You're overworrying I think. Most people already distance these ponzis from BTC in their minds. Besides it is unlikely that ponzi operators would be dumping their proceeds all at once on the market straight away.

That's true but it still doesn't mean they won't affect the price.

In the case of Plus Token, it's speculated they've been slowly dumping since they exit scammed in June. Chainalysis reported 2 weeks ago that they had dumped 25,000 BTC since June, with another 20K waiting in the wings: https://blog.chainalysis.com/reports/plustoken-scam-bitcoin-price

Coincidentally, the market topped in June and has been downtrending ever since. :P

Always have thousand way for scammer to make ponzi or hype project with using bitcoin as their label name, every one have know how to increase profit whit bitcoin but when some hype project use bitcoin as their background way many people have manipulated and trusted whit hype site, they don't know give fake news about bitcoin and try to give support with their member about they are legit project investment.

ponzi scheme will slowly diminish in the crypto space as it's getting regulated.
People has learned from their experience, they are more matured now and they can make good decision.

Although the market is bad for the last 1 year or so, but it has been an opportunity for us to realize our past mistakes and we will never get victims of scams anymore, though this kind of act will not be stopped but at least it will be totally minimize.

The future I see in crypto is that bitcoin will continue to go up, while ponzi will eventually die, they are quite opposite so they don't succeed together.

You miss the whole picture

It is definitely true with respect to trading, but if it were only about trading, we would have a classic Ponzi scheme with any tradable asset. However, the difference between gold, silver and other real assets, on the one hand, and some scammy tokens, on the other, is crucial and definitive. Real assets are called real for a reason

And the reason is that these assets have plenty of utility beyond just trading. Then buying low and selling high stops being the only useful option available to you. With Ponzies, the only way their tokens can be of any use to you is when you sell them higher than what you bought them for. That's their only utility and distinguishing feature

That will probably be the most lasting effect from those ponzi schemes, while they are not going to damage the price of bitcoin that much regardless of their size the real problem is that people are going to begin to associate the scam not with the people that got their money but with bitcoin and this will slow adoption as those people will most likely prefer to avoid bitcoin from now on and if anyone that is close to them inquires them about bitcoin they will only have bad things to say about it.

If there were sizeable ponzi schemes that collapsed then even so it should not really affect the price of Bitcoin because there are far too many variables to consider before any price fluctuation would occur.

You are just equating "Ponzi scheme" with "speculation." That's ridiculous. The most basic feature of a Ponzi scheme is it promises investment returns under fraudulent pretenses. The point of investing in a Ponzi scheme is to yield ROI, not to buy low and sell high.

Reaching some arbitrary measure of real world usage doesn't define a Ponzi scheme either. It's a form of fraud. Even if your definition applied, Bitcoin is frequently used as a medium of exchange and even a unit of account. It's a "real asset" through and through even if you don't think very highly of it.

The phenomenon you are indirectly referring to is known as the greater fool theory. (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/greaterfooltheory.asp) It's a market phenomenon and investment strategy, not a fraudulent investment scheme like a Ponzi:

I'm curious as to why you refuse to look beyond speculation

Since this is what ultimately determines whether speculation is synonymous with a Ponzi scheme (as its modus operandi). So it is definitely not like I'm just equating "Ponzi scheme" with "speculation", or some exotic variety thereof. Put differently, if it is only about speculation and nothing else, then you can be certain that you are dealing with a fraud. Okay, you disagree, I understand, but would you disagree that most altcoins (aka shitcoins, for the record) as well as the best part of ICO's are a form of fraud functioning in a Ponzi-like manner and environment, where profits can only come from later investors?

When ponzi and hype project use bitcoin label in their website and product many people can be manipulated and make investor have scam much money, we know detail how ponzi and hype working although use bitcoin or coin label in their website name, example with Bitconnect where giving 1% every day profit landing and your coin keep the same value after pass their contract more than 100 days, but what did you get now BBC have been scam.

Well that's the sad reality, whether we like it or not scammer can't be totally eliminated and no matter what we do they can do something around it. As investors it is very important that you fully know everything about the project because scammers will stop at nothing and they will make sure their projects look like a legit project and it may be very difficult to detect it, it pays to know the makers and whose behind those projects.

Invest only with altcoin have listed with bigger exchange market and have higher volume transaction without try for investing with ICO, IEO and try for investing with project look like bitcoin, when you invest with new project investment you have ready to know what bigger risk because when investing with ICO and IEO you don't know will be good investing or not.

Bitcoin itself is not a method to make more money, that is what many many people use it for but reality is that the creation purpose was to create a new currency that was better than the current fiat system we have and to that point bitcoin managed to actually build something that is better.

What we put on top of that and buying lows and selling highs and all those Bakkt things and leverage bitmex things etc are all because people used bitcoin for that, which goes to show you that we are the reason why all systems are broken, communism didn't worked, capitalism failed, socialism got destroyed, whatever system you throw at humanity they found a way to use it for personal gain and not improvement of our society. Bitcoin intended to be different but ended up in the same place.

Depends on the general market demand for Bitcoin.. and it also depends on whether they dump the whole thing (supply). Seems like they'd find it a little hard to dump since most centralized exchanges place kyc limits on withdrawal of large funds. Normal hackers will likely avoid them.

Ponzi has nothing to do with Bitcoin, we should never associate Bitcoin to Ponzi scheme, these Ponzi operators are just using Bitcoin to their activity, so even if these Ponzin schemes like Plus Token go down, it will have no impact on Bitcoin because it is a technology and Ponzi is scam scheme

Well,  one of the negative stigmas in the crypto world is the development of cryptocurrency projects which instead of earning Bitcoin and make profitable even though they use a Ponzi scheme and this is what makes some ordinary people judge BItcoin is a negative thing that is not good if you invest in it. Of course, we hope that Bitcoin has a good image in the eyes of the world

Ponzi will always be there, looking for people who don't want to search for information or expertise. We are going to get stuck in the Ponzi scheme without knowing whether or not that is true. We're going to see a new type of Ponzi as the Ponzi scheme will always adapt following the trend, and the Ponzi scheme will seek to get as many people as possible to get their money. You must therefore be vigilant and always find the other source for the news.

I agree with you.

Sadly some ponzi schemes will collapse after the scammers behind them make lots of money and some will be collapse beforehand but all in all it is clear Bitcoin price is related to far too many variables to pinpoint.

you are absolutely right that we want a better image of bitcoin in the eyes of world, but most of the people adopt the wrong ways in this field inorder to get a quick and easy money due to which the victim people are considering bitcoin a bad thing. Ponzi scheme is one of the wrong ways that make people fool and get the money of people illegally.
but i think we should teach those people who are considering bitcoin bad that you can use bitcoin in a positive way.

theoretically yes, a scammer cash it out. of course it's just a little penny compared to the bitcoin market cap .
but the trust to crypto currency will got more affected from that cases. of course we talking about negative effect .
general people will more familiar with btc is ponzi nests than btc in the right defenition.

But did you really expected any different? That is just human nature, humans are always looking for a way to gain an advantage over everyone else, and they can do this under the rules established by their society or by breaking them, those using ponzi schemes to get money are operating outside of what we consider acceptable and if they are ever found most likely they will be jailed, but when people use bitcoin to speculate with it they are actually using bitcoin as intended, after all with bitcoin you can use your money as you want and if they want to speculate with it then they are using it in the right way.

It's an interesting thing to think about.

If the ponzi operators theoretically dump their coins as soon as they pull an exit scam, and the scam is of some magnitude, then yes, the effects on the bitcoin market COULD be detrimental in the short term.

But at the end of the day, it won't have any weight in the long run because these ponzis simply use bitcoin as a payment method and doesn't represent bitcoin in any way. The fundamentals of BTC's network and technology is what drives long term prices, not third parties.

I tend to think it does in fact affect the fundamentals

And not because it adds to volatility (though it is about that too) but for the image that such use produces. Indeed, it doesn't change the technology behind Bitcoin, but technology without adoption is pretty useless on its own. When people lose their money via Bitcoin as was the case with PlusToken, their overall attitude toward cryptocurrencies changes and not for the best, to say the least

And yes, I know that the dollar (for example) is used for nefarious purposes as well and probably much more in general. But this use is still minuscule compared to its other uses, good ones, so it doesn't affect its image so much

Ponzi schemes will not stop bitcoin's rise, but the reputation for new investors will be tarnished. Some days, people are more vigilant than in previous years. But with all the investments, altcoin ponzi schemes have begun to come to light where teams are just escaping. New project regulations can be effective in stopping these things. However at the moment they stop only the minority of the criminals

Ponzi schemes have been around for a long time, either in real investments, or investments in crypto, indeed today there are a lot of ponzi schemes that occur in crypto currencies, the step you have to look at is to stay away from unclear new projects, analyze the project, of course from fundamental and whitepaper

pyramid schemes will not stop bitcoin's rise, but the reputation for new investors will be tarnished. Some days, people are more vigilant than in previous years. But with all the savings, altcoin ponzi schemes have started to come to light where teams are just fleeing. New project legislation can be effective in stopping these issues.

Lol. I bet you that even after all these shared experiences and information about ponzis and hyips, there will still be people who will fall for it 😁 that's why i think their schemes would just keep on trying to keep up with bitcoin's progress. At this point in time, crypto users should know well not to waste time and money in these ventures, but the promise of quick, easy money is just too difficult to pass up for a lot of people.

When bitcoin wasn't much popular, ponzi scammers used some others payment methods to scam people. But when Bitcoin become more popular crypto currency then all ponzi scammers moved into bitcoin. They start their ponzi scheme with bitcoin payment method. So indirectly we can say ponzi scheme would one of reason bitcoin dump. Scammers choose bitcoin for their safety, because its irreversible and can't be trace who is behind of that scam. So when scammers sell big amount of bitcoin, it would effect on bitcoin prices. Because there is lots of ponzi scammers and they are continuously doing that. But that effect wouldn't much longer, since people will buy bitcoin again for invest on ponzi, LOL. It's not surprising to me, still there is lots of investors who believe they could get big return from ponzi. Perhaps some people got profits who came first. That's why more people often jump on ponzi scheme due to greedy nature.

In my own opinion Bitcoin was an equivalent of a slow lottery for many people, myself included. I don't think of myself as a great investor, or visionary, or extremely smart. Just like I don't consider these things about anyone who got rich off bitcoin. I got lucky, that's it. And so did they. It is extremely unlikely bitcoin will do 100x from here or even 10x-20x. But we need noobs to believe that it will go really high. they need to put up buying support for someone like me to dump my extremely appreciated coins into, so that I can buy a new Lambo.

Right, there's a lot of warnings from this forum alone about Ponzi scams but there's still a lot of people who fall for this type of scam. It only shows that some people are concern about the returns but not willing to do any hardwork and as we all know Ponzi scams promises investors of higher return of investments without doing anything.

Who care if they sell their bitcoin? I hope they sell their bitcoin and never come back. People who invest in ponzis are idiots and you could say they are scammers to if you know how a ponzi works and still invest because your gains come from the loss of victims. We all better off with such idiots out of the crypto universe. We don't need people who promote and support ponzi we better without them.


The thing is they care about returns they will never get.

Many people like for investing with ponzi during early could giving much profit but at the middle time for project investment running many member faced trouble with their withdrawing, if you look interested with ponzi scheme project only joining on the early time and never participated after long time running because their fresh balance have been empty.

Ponzi scheme and bitcoin always have close relation. This is all because of the scams and Ponzi schemes getting promoted in the name of bitcoin. In a survey about Ponzi traps associated with cryptocurrencies, the majority have fallen without proper understanding. Most were with the thought of investing on bitcoin as the promotion always has some comparison with bitcoin to show their project the best.

I don't think there is going to be a ponzischeme bigger then Bitconnect, in the cryptoworld.
And Bitconnect probably didn't have much impact on the price of Bitcoin, Now also a lot of people know about this kind of practice and they wouldn't get fooled so easily.
If anything Bitconnect made us smarter about the type of scams and magnitude people are willing to to go for.
What I do question if Thether is maybe used for creating a fake higher price, what will happen then if it turns out Thether doesn't have all the money they  put in to Bitcoin.

Maybe the other way around,.. the collapse of bitcoin will totally eliminate the ponzi.

That's why there are ponzis in crypto space is because they are using the popularity of crypto to run their ponzi scheme, and those people who are eager to earn but has no or limited knowledge in crypto will always be the victims, even if the market will be regulated, they will still exist though I expect the scams will be minimize.

I don't think that the collapse of bitcoin would eliminate the Ponzi, scammers are everywhere as long as there is money involved they will never be gone. And mostly most of the victims are the people who have no enough knowledge with a certain thing that is why as tips for newcomers always remember that never enter in any field without having any knowledge upon it. Talking the effect of the collapse of Ponzi on Bitcoin, let say that they have a little bit significance in the market because I am pretty sure that they are the one who caused a panic selling on the market because if they did not release it in any exchange they might encounter a problem eventually.