Bitcoin Forum

Today I found on medium this nice article by Federico Tenga about long term storing of bitcoin to be gifted to future generations.
 There are a few interesting points to be considered, some of them I completely overlooked while thinking about this very topic:

So, have a read:



https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/16/blob4e35c365e0e836db.png
Hardware compatibility doesn’t age well

After a few thoughts he came with this solution:

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/16/blob98aec6fae348a517.png

Read the whole article here:


He has an (inactive) account here on Bitcointalk, maybe if you have enough comment we can summon him back to the forum!

I found this quote from the article to be particularly interesting:


And it made me wonder whether in 18 years, when the gift recipient has grown up, bitcoin will be as popular or as relevant.  It's a technology that might not age well in that amount of time--and I don't get the feeling that it's going to disappear or anything like that, but you wouldn't expect USB drives to disappear either.  People expect long-term growth from bitcoin, but the truth of the matter is that none of us knows what's going to happen in crypto.

Having said that, I think it's a fantastic idea to put aside some satoshis or whatever amount of bitcoin would be appropriate for a newborn.  It's a cool gift if nothing else.

Wow, I really enjoyed reading thr article. It's an interesting question with technologies and methods of storing data. I intend to leave some BTC to my yet unborn children, but I opt to keep up with the trends and transfer money from time to time when something gets outdated. It's sad that with bitcoin we have so many questions compared to fiat bank accounts. People regularly lock money for their newborns in banks that have been around for a long while, right? Surely, it does not have any guarantees, but it's just that bitcoin is not tested with time yet, so its way harder to predict what will happen.

I am an oldie, a baby boomer actually and that is why I am more passionate about this technology than even some of the younger people who are kind of taking it too much for granted. I wish we had this tech breakthrough when I was young, my whole life could have been so different. It's an exciting time to be alive and this is also my plan. To leave different amounts of Bitcoin in wallets for all the babies and children in my family and also for others as well, and trying to educate more members of my family to hold and even use Bitcoin. My goal is to get Bitcoin knowledge and satoshi to at least 500 people before I leave this planet, then I won't feel my life here as being a waste. Knowledge and self-worth are the two great gifts we can give future generations and also the satoshis of course.  :)

It's nice, as long as the world financial sector requires a new direction, then gifting some Satoshi to a new born baby today will be a huge gold in the future, when the world finally shift attention to the new digital gold. I hope the gift is well preserved.

Nobody knows, every day Bitcoin is running, the irrelevant scenario fades a little bit. If this scenario materialise, also your present will be irrelevant, but on the opposite scenario this could be a problem. If we are in this forum and we are reading this very article, it is clear which scenario we all foresee.


I can think many ways USB can disappear. I extracted the above image for a reason. Anyway this article made me consider paper wallet a a way to prevent technological obsolescence, something I didn’t think about, actually.

I think this is the main take-away of the article! Stash sats, not only for you, but also for your beloved ones.

It's an interesting article and experiment, but there are certainly some pretty big flaws in his arguments.

This is nonsense. With Amazon Prime and 10 bucks, I can have a floppy disk drive delivered to my door within 24 hours. With a car and a local computer store, I can get one within the hour. And this is a technology with is 50 years old and from a time when some houses had a single computer, maybe. We now live in time where every person, let alone every house, has multiple devices using USB - computers and all their peripherals, TVs, games consoles and peripherals, mobile phones, chargers, power banks, cars, etc. There is no way you are going to have any problem using a USB device in 20 years' time.

Again, although wallets may move on from BIP44 or BIP84, support for these will always exist. There is no way in 20 years people will have to manually derive these keys. There are far too many sites, repositories, programs, etc. out there. Only a complete failure of the internet would make every single one of these inaccessible.

If storing coins for 20 years I would also choose something like steel engraving, but rather because I wouldn't want to trust that the digital hardware wasn't going to degrade in that time rather than the reasons above.

A paper wallet doesn't really need any special tech. And a paper wallet + a time locked transaction towards that address already does the job.
I don't know, do more complicated solutions make the blogs or newspapers look more interesting maybe?

You are absolutely right, but also you have to consider you are giving this to a complete “unknown person”, with an unknown set of skills. Of course I think We both can figure out how to connect a 5 1/4 floppy disk to almost any device, or find the correct derivation or standard for any key, but you have to consider he probably wanted to keep things as simple as possible to deal with non technical person.

This is a sort of paper wallet.
A paper wallet doesn’t mean the wallet is made of paper. Paper wallet, in a broader sense, means you are storing the private key in “plain text” or some very simple encoding (this is subject of the article).
Time locked transactions are irrelevant on the case, as this is a gift, and you want the Satoshi to be in the immediate availability of the recipient (she could spend the Satoshi tomorrow, if she wants).

I too am terrified of the media for storing information, I have always had it: in the world of information technology there are many things that have been lost due to the means of conservation/storage rather than the format.
I always want to make a comparison with the writings on papyrus of 2000 years ago still preserved compared to CDs that lose their storage capacity well before than 100 years.
So I am afraid that many bitcoins will not be equally accessible in many years due to computer obsolescence.
Maybe the good old plasticizer paper wallet reduces this risk? But it certainly does not cancel it.

Wow, interesting subject to think and talk

If you think, USB can be aged in 18 years from now for example, and you can find another solution to keep the BTC, and It's essential to updating the hardware or technology in some years, not hard, because there is always a long time for transictions like floppy disks to cd.....cd to dvd....dvd to flash drives, it's dumb to no updating your files with the recent medias available

But a thing to consider, in 18years, BTC will still remain relevant?

The timelock is indeed optional, it's useful only if the sender wants to have the money spent only after a certain age.
And I meant paper wallet .. made of paper. I have to admit that this capsule is one of the simplest of the "complicated approaches", but I just don't see the reason for using (crypto)steel.

When I read that quote I was preparing to say the same...
And it's not only about floppy disks, got 40$? You can get a turntable (https://www.amazon.com/Byron-Statics-Turntable-Nostalgic-Replacement/dp/B07J2NZLZS/)with built-in stereo.
Cassettes, that's even easier...

Actually, with the amazing progress in technology, we're able to make all the things that went out of use cheaper and more affordable than they were when they were used by millions. So this is quite a false problem....



You plug the USB adaptor (https://www.amazon.com/HDE-External-1-44-Floppy-Drive/dp/B0099QUECK?ref_=fsclp_pl_dp_10) into the USB slot....
If that is rocket science....:D

I was thinking connecting to an iPad, actually.
What if there are no usb slot in 20 years? I cannot rule out this possibility.

You will simply plug the floppy disk adapter in the matrix /tesla /ohmibod whatever their name will be in 20 years slot  ;D
That's what adapters are for!

I'd feel much more comfortable using steel than paper for 20 years. Protection from fire, water, rot, mold, and so forth. Hell, even just protection from the ink fading.

Then adapters will be ubiquitous. There is far too much data stored on USB compatible devices across the world that if some new standard was to replace it there would be no way to convert between the two.

Exactly. Another example: how many CD players are still inside modern computer devices? And we're not talking about past ages...

I really don’t know.
If you look at the image in the OP post the USB stick seems functional.
Maybe the author only wanted to avoid this scenario.  Or keep really simple, as said. That was his choice, not mine.
I only noted that he scrapped the need to rely on an hypothesis (the possibility to use an USB stick) going to the simplest yet more reliable form of storage.

Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't use a USB stick either but not because of the fear I won't be able to read it.
Just as you said, to keep things simple, and I would trust more steel than data on a usb stick.

But the fear that he is not going to be able to read it or there will be no equipment left is exaggerated.
If we right now can order a VHS player, cd player, cassette player with a click of a button then USB adaptors are safe for at least half a century.


And you can't find one to buy? Walmart (https://www.walmart.com/c/kp/external-disk-drive) has plenty.
Again it's a fake problem.

gifting? more like taking to consideration guys

It isn't. The image in the OP is not meant to be taken seriously, but even if it was, the USB stick wouldn't work. USB to PS/2 to 9 pin serial to 25 pin serial to parallel. It will fall at the first hurdle because the PS/2 adapter won't transfer data from the USB stick. I'm also don't think either the serial or parallel adapters would be able to transmit meaningful signals from the USB stick. Furthermore, parallel ports don't have any power pins, so the USB stick wouldn't even be able to power up. However, note the two empty USB slots just to the left of that monstrosity.

If you really needed to use an old computer with no USB functionality, you can buy a USB to header connector for less than 10 bucks or a USB PCI card for less than 20 bucks.

The USB ports may disappear. But there will be a different tool for the connection. Maybe everything happens with an eye scan. Our eyes or fingerprints are the key to a lot of information. I think Satoshi will be known in 100 years.

Out of merits now, but tip my hat to that technical analysis of an half-joke image.
Yes, now I looked more carefully, yes I do agree: power could be an issue there ( now I have memories about how many of those adapters I personally owned in my life....)

Yes, this is what I said on my post, but nobody read  ;D

There is always a long time of transictions
Even now, I can find in a few minutes how can I buy some device to read my floppy disks

€74 a piece for the Cryptosteel Capsule seems like overkill to me. I suppose you're paying for the waterproof/fireproof aspects, but as someone who already has a weatherproof safe, that seems pricey for a glorified paper wallet.

It looks pretty snazzy, though. I'll give it that.

Hello, the author of the article here. I agree that there will always be a way in the future to use past technology, surely you.  can buy all the necessary adapters on Amazon and find some software to derived an HD seed  with an out of fashion standard, but one of my design goals was to keep things simple. Today it would be annoying and time consuming to buy a floppy disk reader for a single use, and in the future it could be even worst: it's not hard to imagine a future were teenagers are totally foreign to the idea of physically connect an external storage to their device, as wireless and cloud alternatives become more popular. Obviously I may be wrong on this, the truth is that we just cannot know how consumer grade technology will evolve, so avoiding electronic devices all together seemed like the safest option to keep the redeem phase simple.

Moreover writing down a key on a physical support is just more reliable for long term storage than any digital storage medium.

Yeah I paid the premium more for the look than for durability concerns. Non-bitcoiners may not be able to fully appreciate a piece of paper with few words written on it, and may easily lose it within few years, so I wanted something that looked cool and that they would keep safe as if it was regular jewellery.

Welcome back to the forum!

This is probably the reason why he went to the top shelf version, if you could just use a safe, then you could just have written it in plastic and stored it there, but there is still the risk that if anything happens to you, that child you wish to gift might not have access to your fireproof and fireproof safe and they would end up losing the funds anyways.

I think this summaries the whole thing, many things might change in 18 years, you might not be alive, your house could be submerged in water and you could lose access to your safe but a steel Jewelry is probably the best bet and they could even wear it while growing up without it losing it's quality. Anyways welcome back to the forum.

This is a great idea as the giver stands to own a fortune if bitcoin rises again to any new all time height. But i hope he really backs up the seedphrase of the various wallets used in storing all these satoshis. Quite a chunk of BTC has been lost in circulation already, the least we can do is to compound to it.

It would be great but the question is what would be the value of Bitcoin when the new generation receive it.
Would Bitcoin still have a value would they be able to spent it?
Surely the device would be more advance so if we really want them to receive it properly we would have to keep on checking the wallet and make sure it is safe.

Even if bitcoin were not as popular or relevant as now after 18 years. It would still be a good souvenir to give. A piece of the first cryptocurrency that actually attracted the attention of the whole world and was the best investment for the decade 2010-2020. Bitcoin already has a place in history.

Actually the object is interesting, but will be prone to being stolen because the goods are in physical form.
I prefer digital forms online, because it's easy to access. Because the digital world will last long with the progress of the modern era.

It is a unique way of gift that can result in either happy or sad moment. It will be happy if it turns out that 18 years from now bitcoin will still exist and it's value will climb up to it's highest.

While the opposite one is once bitcoin is not existing anymore or it's value goes back to nothing. In any case, I like the idea as it is very unique and is very challenging for the receiver on how he is going to redeem the gift once he is ready.

Why don't you just tell the kid when he grows up the 12/24 word mnemonics? Depending on how much money we are dealing here you can probably just remember the words. Not that difficult.

When you make the wallet, just pick a mnemonic where you can piece together a poem or story and just tell it to the kid its entire life. When they grow up, tell them what the poem or story really meant.

Sure there are issues here where you can forget the words or just accidentally pass away but there are also issues with paper wallets or steel engraved bars which can also be damaged or stolen or misplaced after 20 years.

The USB is not a good method because who knows, maybe the chip inside the USB can degrade like some of those old burnt CDs from the 90s and just lose its data.

I find it quite cool to have such thing for future generations.

Just don't know if that Cryptosteel’s Capsule will still be working at his 18 years old or who knows, broken by something from real life event.

Although it is sweet magnificient equipment he made i think there will be something in the future taking that as an adoption for other new equipments on the market with such potential.

It's time for us to wait and see if that baby feedsback here at Bitcointalk later :D

This is gonna be good. Thank you for this wonderful information. Actually, you can use this one to store bitcoin for a very long time and give your digital currency to the one that you want to give it to. In that case, you can just easily share your money to your children or your future recipient for them to continue the journey of bitcoin.

Well 18 years is quite a long time and a lot of things that the giver did not expect may have happened already during that time. With the speed technology is moving forward, it's not impossible that btc, or crypto, has already been replaced by another alternative to fiat. Bitcoin took almost half that time to be at the point where it is right now and a lot has changed since then. Only time can tell whether it's a good idea or not.

Agreed. I'd be glad to get this sort of gift now but who knows if it'll have any value in the future (except for the sentimental one, of course)?

True, but in this case I preferred to replicate the security model people are already used to with other valuables: you just have to keep it safe from thieves, and you don't have to remember passwords or mnemonics. For non-bitcoiners the main risk of losses comes from themselves, not from thieves

You should absolutely not be trusting your memory, especially not over a period of 20 years. You can guarantee at no point in the next 20 years you will be knocked on the head, be in a car accident, have a stroke, or any of the other 100 things that can cause memory loss? I don't think so.

This is equally bad advice. You should never "pick" a seed phrase. Humans are bad at being random, and anything you pick is therefore weak. Seed phrases should be generated by your wallet from your random seed number.

Memory is a difficult thing but if you teach 1 kid a rhyme of 12 words I am 100% sure he can remember it. Some things just stick with you the way ABC songs does. And if you can do it in a local language even better which is how I remember my mnemonics:) Use the local language version of it so even if international hackers try, they'll never even be able to bruteforce me;)

Life is risk. Saving bitcoin for newborn child is not bad. The coin is limited and only 4 million left to be mined and supply will reduce after halving. This can make the price to still increase in such a way the supply will decrease and the demand will increase and thereby price will increase overtime. To me, it is good because I believe at that time bitcoin will worth more than $100,000 because it is a limited coin.
But, if I am the man, I will prefer ethereum, litecoin or dash instead of bitcoin because if bitcoin price trend up, this altcoins price trend up in two to three folds compare to bitcoin. But as to what the man did, it is still perfect to me.

100% sure? Not even the smallest doubt? I don't know how old you are, but can you remember every rhyme or song you were taught in your childhood? There's not a single one you've forgotten, or even forgotten a single line to?

Also, if you teach a kid a rhyme, can you trust he or she will never repeat that rhyme in public or the presence of someone else?

Too high risk for my liking. High durability physical storage, such as metal, would be my preference for a 20 year hold.

It won't. The rate of increase in supply will decrease. The supply itself will continue to increase, albeit more slowly.

The best way to gift Bitcoin to coming generations is by introducing them to bitcoin and help them in getting started with bitcoin since that’s the most difficult thing new comers faces for bitcoin. I have already handed over my bitcoin keys to my son who is 12 right now in case anything happens to me and he is loving this new technology

an interesting article , the same thing was discussed in the topics about how to store your coins safely
the technology might not age well , but I suspect USB sticks won't be out of date in 20 years
I'd be more worried if bitcoin itself stayed relevant , anything could happen in 20 years , it could lose its value , for example
the best way would be a form of a paper wallet , laminated and put into a water,dust etc. proof metal case and stored safely
hardware wallets , usb sticks run a risk of a malfunction more than becoming irrelevant

If other country are introducing the blockchain at early age by studying it in school will be a good idea, so let's have those future generation to become aware what it is at a young age because there's a lot of kids right now that will create future and we might have a young satoshi with them, so let's teach while they are young .

It's going to be a good idea, I mean by teaching kids about Bitcoin and crypto it can make em interested in this field and maybe they can inovate it as some points. Furthermore Bitcoin will be more valuable and even stronger if a lot of people will join the community.

People also catalogue and collect old technology just like we do with everything in history. You will always be able to retrieve old data from old devices. It will just be antiqued by then. I mean people still have the very first Atari game console. How long ago was that? Like 40+ years. It's not like its unheard of to buy artefacts or relics years and years old. You can also re backup the files onto the newest media every few years. It really is not an issue. In fact you should back it up again not just to keep up with the tech but also to remind yourself you still have those coins. In 18 years you can forget a lot.

While I’m fine with the idea of Steel being used to store a BIP 39 24 word recovery seed, the Cryptosteel capsule does not seem a great option to me in general terms. Yeah it cool and such, but much more importantly, it should be pretty fool-proof as a premise. And it is not.

The capsule I find is too space limited. A 24 word recovery seed needs to be stored using 4 letter abbreviations (and someone then has to leave instructions as to that fact), using therefore 96 out of the 123 tiles. That does not seem to leave that much wiggle room to move tiles apart and read their values without bringing it all apart.

Here is the real danger: If the fastener you place to keep all the tiles in place is not properly adjusted (and this step is not fool-proof), and it slips, all the tiles could simply fall off the rod in a random manner, making recovery impossible. That risk defeats the purpose in my opinion, and I’d opt for another more static steel solution.

True that, as far as I know the innovation is really big between young people in crypto space. Some universities are actually having the new blockchain technology courses. If the person is into it from the young days then the future is definitely bright for them. Also gifting btc to children might be a great investment for the future to make a lot of money.

That's a fair concern, but I'm actually more concerned about fiat than Bitcoin, mainly so with how the demand for a tiny dot such as Bitcoin can only increase in the long run, thus the purchasing power of those holding it.

I think an additional demand factor for Bitcoin is the fact that physical cash is being banished slowly but surely. Bitcoin is the only digital asset that you can hold permissionlessly. In the same way, I strongly believe it will increase the demand for physical Gold because there will always be people valuing something they can actually hold.

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I'm a fan of anything that is durable and portable to be used as a wallet. I have been experimenting with steel plates that I engrave private keys in manually, and I actually like idea behind it. It's far more durable than a paper wallet, plus it can resist temperatures of ~1000 degrees celcius. Inside a safe, it's destined to last.

Steel plates cost a few bucks, and an engraving pen costs somewhere between $25-$50 brand new. Great value for money I would say.

the problem is 18 years is a long time, anything can happen in the future, not necessarily bitcoin is still growing at that time, maybe in the future there are other technologies that can shift the position of bitcoin, not to mention other problems, I myself just a few years have a lot of problems in crypto, I have several cryptos in different places, until I could no longer take it for various reasons, forgot the account, forgot the site because it's been too long not visited the site.

technology will continue to develop over time. so if we give our baby satoshi bitcoin now and keep it in a hardware wallet. I'm afraid that in the future bitcoin hardware wallets are outdated and irrelevant to the technology of the time. 18 years is a long time I am also afraid that at that time bitcoin was not as valuable as it is now. I better sell Satoshi Bitcoin to buy gold jewelry for my baby.

With the evolution of technology and looking back at previous products that stored data VHS, floppy disks, cds, and now USBS it is a similar pattern that eventually these technologies get dropped. VHS support has almost entirely been dropped and cds are now the new in. Well thats what we thought but now modern computers are shipping without cd drives and everything is moving to the digital world of downloading but storing a private key on the internet for it to be downloaded in the future is not a good idea at all. Luckily with Bitcoin we can create a physical copy of a private key and copy that over the a computer manually by typing that in. This is the only way of preventing issues with technology being developed and support being dropped for certain media options.

This is why when gifting Bitcoin the only way of doing it would be providing a private key to the recipient. The good news about providing a private key instead of storing funds on a USB is I don't see letters going out of fashion in the world of computing any time soon. I agree it could be a cool gift if it is worth something when they are older otherwise it is a pretty lame gift.

If you are worried about Bitcoin becoming obsolete why do you not have the same concerns about gold? The smart option would be to be invested in both and not have your eggs in one basket but even then both could become obsolete. What is obvious is that digital assets are becoming more and more desired as the internet and computers develop and physical items are becoming less so.

Anything that is exposed to air and gravity for a long time will have changing properties. Metal plates can rust in the incorrect environment as well as be a heat conductor. Steel plates can be worn down through aging and looking at how deep you are engraving is probably worth thinking about as well as the environment that you are storing it in. Paper and steel plates would probably be ok for most of our lifetimes but if you are storing it for future generations then thinking about these things is probably a wise decisions because when it changes hands to your "heir" it might not be stored in the conditions that you stored it in.


Without using memory techniques most of our memories are not that good and when that person ages things that they do not use on a daily basis will be lost. To remember something which has no meaning and is complex in its structure requires frequent use of it otherwise it will be forgotten. I don't mean complex in the words that are used but complex in that it does not make sense in English.

Yes you are right. Saving satoshi as a gift is not highly recommended because we are not sure if how long the does the crypto currency lasts. Whether it will be legalized in the future or it will be banned by the governments because using crypto currencies has a lot of disadvantages that they may use as a reason for crypto currency to be removed.

if used for a period of 2-3 years may still be possible, but to give a gift that has a period of more than 10 years then you should think again. because the position of crypto does not yet have strong validation from countries that could have made strict prohibition rules

Lucky are those newborn babies being gifted with Bitcoin. I'm sure that it will be a huge advantage for their future to have it. We all know that Bitcoin has a huge potential to go far in the future. 18 years would be long enough for those Bitcoin to be profitable. It's really a good idea because it will also benefit the future of those newborn babies. I just hope that they would pursue learning about it as they grow up.

I somewhat agree with your first point, regarding the second point, I didn't say to manually create a 12/24 word seed from scratch. As far as I know that is not even possible. There is some checksum that it needs to pass.

I just meant create a wallet, look at the seed, see if you can make a song or book out of the words, if not, delete and create another wallet until you find one that works.

If you got words like

happy chicken egg horse jumped water child sad wet ....

You can easily make a story.

The happy chicken laid an egg while the horse jumped over water and got the child to be sad because he was wet....

This statement did not make sense to me. How can a government ban a bitcoin? He needs to shut down the whole internet. Many jobs can already be done from anonymous accounts. Bitcoin has no owner. He has no power to ban him. Now let's get to the most important point. I think it would be a good move to give bitcoin to future generations.

I think so. This thread reminds me that with Bitcoin I can secure a future for my 10 and 13-year-old nephews. At least in 10 years I will save for them and teach them the value of Bitcoin. The 10-year-old already knows about some Satoshis that he won playing by reaching first place in a game.
Thinking about Bitcoin in the long term is the most reasonable in a wide range of ideas and such initiatives should be shown more often.

It is possible. You could pick the first 23 words, convert them to binary, calculate the checksum, add that to the end, and the convert back to get your 24th word. You would be able to choose from 8 different final words by changing the last 3 bits before the checksum. You absolutely shouldn't do this though.

Ok, sure. But how obvious is that going to be to someone else who stumbles across it or hears you repeat it out loud? The example you've given is fairly innocuous, but seed phrases are not like that. Go to https://iancoleman.io/bip39/ and get it to generate a few random 24 word phrases for you. Anyone who knows what BIP39 is, and hears a line or two of a story about a trumpet playing alien, an elegant scorpion or a drastic auction is going to know something is up. To hide a full 24 word seed in a story without it being blatantly obvious you are going to have to write at least several pages, at which point it isn't memorable, and so you should just have written it down on some physical storage like is recommended.

Furthermore, you are essentially relying on security through obscurity, which is not safe.

Give me floppy disk full of bitcoins and I'll make it readable for me, I saved old floppy reader from my very old pc do not a problem for me :D I think time isn't a huge problem, if old device has something small common with new one, then it won't be a problem.
That's really a good question whether bitcoin will be popular in 18 year or not. Technologies develop, things are getting older but at the same time everything new is a well forgotten old and it's really true. I think bitcoin won't be so popular and there will be another altcoin that will take it's place. I know a lot of people will come now against me but it's truth, the only way to get rid of it is to add new features on bitcoin and change it as time goes.

Of course it is possible of any of us to connect any device with anything.
But this is not the point of the article.
The author is that he wanted to make the claiming of those bitcoins as straightforward as possible as he's giving satoshi to a "complete stranger" with unknown techological skills. He don't want the receiver of those bitcoins get stuck in claiming her satoshi because she cannot recover an USB device/conntector/dongle or emulate current software or over ride who knows wich technological complication. The author apparently doesn't want the receiver to "trust" anywone providing help to claim those sats.

To those of you who are saying it might not be compatible in 20 years the plugs are not the software and even some connections like USB have aged rather well.
Some examples of hardware compatibility:
-jack connectors are used since 19th century and all of us probably still have and use them.
-RCA was invented in 1930 and we all still use them today
-RJ plug in use since the 70. All of us have them at home.
-USB is in use for over 20 years.

Software compatibility is also not that bad. Most DOS programs can still be run on Windows 30-40 years after their release.

This is not something which is new. There are people who gifted 1 BTC and more in 2013-2015 with a hardware wallet on birthdays n occasions. I think it's really a good gesture to the future generations.

If you pick 100 random persons how many of them do you think can run (I mean, use the program for the purpouse it is intended for) a MS-DOS program on a today computer? 50% being generous? Probably the author studied a method to increase the probability for the person to get hold of their fund greater of that.
 

Random people? No chance would it be 50%. I'd put the figure at less than 5%. Probably at least 50% of them don't know what MS-DOS is, and of the remaining ones, a majority would have heard of it but not have a clue how to get it running. If, however, you said to them "If you can get this program running on MS-DOS, you will inherit $10,000", I'm reckon a majority of them would be able to consult Google and figure out what needed to be done. Money is a powerful motivator.

The same applies here. If in 20 years' time BIP39 hadn't been used in 19 years, but you gave someone completely unfamiliar with bitcoin a 24 word phrase and told them it unlocks $10,000, I'd bet they'd be able to access the coins within a day or two, either on their own or with the help of a friendly community such as this one.

I remember that my grandfather told me that back in the day when there was a new family member some families had the tradition of buying something that they knew will be valuable in the future, gold or silver were popular choices but you could buy other stuff as long as it was valuable, and this seems like just a continuation of that tradition but now instead of using precious metals we could use something like bitcoin which will most likely keep existing in 18 years.

Investing in something that could really be valuable in the future is a good idea. We will never know what the future will bring for crypto after a decade or two and if ever storing it in a device that we can use today will be accessible during that time. The phase of technology is to fast and it's a never-ending development as time happens.

If its just about gifting bitcoin then why should it be limited to new born babies. We can gift bitcoins to our friends and relatives as well. We can even gift it to ourself. I am 24 and I can certainly gift myseld some bitcoins to be used at the age of 40. Matter fact, am gonna do that for sure.
I was actually saving some BTC to be used in future, so why not turning it into a gift for myself  ;D .

at least we give something of value to future generations, because maybe in the future bitcoin can have a place and more useful use for many people. if you really have good intentions, then I think it should be done too because we provide assistance to people in the future

This is to make sure that the recipient will then surely have the bitcoins stored on it but if we can't afford to buy a ledger or a trezor it would be fine to store it in an online wallet, write down or make the address a QR code for the next generation to essily have
 Definitely, a perfect gift for a long term basis. In addition, they could consider giving gifts some elders just to make sure their funerals will be then paid off readily.

That's a nice idea. But while others are arguing whether it will fit or how to plug it in the future since we all have no idea how fast will things going to innovate, I'm thinking that if that baby would care about Bitcoin in the future? Will he be that interested with crypto?? Well it depends if crypto becomes a mainstream about 18 years.

But that's really a great idea though we don't know what will be bitcoin's status after 18-20 years

I also have think that storing my cryptocurrency for my grandchild would be a great idea because it might have a good value in the future, but i also started to think that if i store it in my online wallet it could get hacked in the future. Thanks to Federico Tenga, he gaves me an idea how to store my crypto in the future generations, since every devices always upgrades you need to make a device that can also be compatible in the future.

Regarding the gift yes it is definitely a good idea and an unusual gift at that which would take some beating.

Now when it comes to hardware wallets I think there is something important you touched upon. More and more laptops and PCs are adding USB type-C sockets while retaining USB type-A sockets. Apple have said they will stop using USB type-A altogether and are using only USB type-C which caters for Thunderbolt.

Once upon a time it would have inconceivable that desktops and laptops could be sold without a CD (then later a DVD) drive, just as once upon a time floppy disk readers were essential parts of the devices.

What will the future bring for hardware devices that might be put away for a generation or two so they can benefit from crypto that was passed down to them?

This is especially true when you know that BTC is a deflationary currency, that as long as it will exist will gain value towards fiat, which is inflationary. You can buy just 0.1 BTC now, which isn't a lot of money, and bet on it surviving another 10 years. If it does, I'm 100% sure it's going to be worth at least 1000% more than it is today. If it doesn't, then you'll lose $700. No new TV for you my friend, you'll spend more time with your family ;) A fair trade if you ask me.

Interestingly, when other mobile phone and computer manufacturers try to get rid of the headphone jack or in this case the legacy USB slots, they are facing serious resistance from all corners, but when Apple does it, it suddenly becomes innovation and a risky but very forward looking vision.

I'm really glad that with a paper wallet or other offline form of storage where you can always have access to your keys, you don't have to worry about getting yourself ready for the next big change in technology. The risk with paper wallets or physical coins such as Casascius is that you have no clue how long the private key will remain readable.

Adam Back recently tweeted (https://twitter.com/adam3us/status/1210160590687223810) about an absolutely stunning 1000BTC Casascius coin, where his point is pretty much the same. What if the private key is no longer readable? You literally risk 1000BTC, in 10 years most likely worth +$100 million.

You are going to trust an online wallet for 20 years? Are you insane? Given how frequently third party services, exchanges, wallets, marketplaces, etc. come and go, the chance of any given online wallet still being functional in 20 years is incredibly small. This is a terrible suggestion.

I wouldn't be worrying about the conversion from USB-A to USB-C. You will always be able to find adapters between the two for only a few dollars. What I would be much more worried about is trusting a hardware wallet for 20 years. Most of these devices have barely existed for 5 years. We have no firm evidence to suggest they will still work just fine after 20 years locked in a box somewhere. A bit too much cold or moisture exposure might just been enough to render it useless.

Yeah, even if the private key was engraved in steel, I wouldn't want that much money accessible by only one method. Every method can fail. Unless I was planning to sell it, I'd be opening that up and backing up the private key at least twice more.

You know what's good with that idea? It is the capability of you to export the private keys if you want it to, so the compatibility issues could be solved in the near future. Though, I do not think the USB port and some compatibility issue could be a problem anytime soon, because I assume this is already the standard in having connection between external drive and the computers we have. Though presenting allot of converters do really help our drives to be usable in the future.

i also think this way  . usb's were already handy and perfect to store some data's including our private keys but there are still other device that can carry our private keys   .  though i believe that investors wont stop to invent portable stuff's and they could invent something that is smaller than a usb and micro sd's but still there would be adapter available so that we can still use our old devices    .  kudos to the man that do those said task  . hope he update us here in the near future  .

It is good that we are trying to gift the satoshi for the next generation because we all know that the price of the bitcoin just like nothing but by the time goes by the amount of the coin increasing rapidly and becomes profitable like now. It is not impossible may happen again and to make sure the future of the next generation that we will pass the satoshi to them. We cannot tell what is happening on the market, or it will continuously give a profitable income until the next generations. But still, if the people consistently support the cryptocurrency, it will last long forever.

I think this is a better idea then wasting it on collage  :P
People often forget about their kids future because they simply trying to survive but if you don't save for your kids very early on then you may never. The fact you can create a crypto bond is very cool and ensures a trustless way to keep the bond intact until the date it releases. It would just suck if you cannot get the coins out and need to since the price is good. Im is unsure what you would do in that situtation.

May I know the username?

If you store the private in the USB, make sure you do things.

1) Store your private keys in two different USB and store them at a different place. This is for the purpose that if one USB got corrupted, you would have a backup.

2)Do not store any other data on that usb and do not use it for your daily tasks

When you gift some satoshi to the younger generation, give them the USB and keep them saved in a locker where they can be accessed by everyone.

He answered in the thread:


As far as I know Federico is not really active here, but you can try to summon him. Maybe he will be notified somehow.
Even more if the question is relevant!

Initially, I was notified of this thread in a DdmrDdmr thread dealing with dying with your coins (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5284824.msg62200187#msg62200187), and so in my post in a more recently created thread about transferring your wealth in light of attempting to prepare for death (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5462812.msg62735116#msg62735116), I mentioned that I was planning to go through this thread, and so here i am.  I finally read through the thread, and it ended  up being different from my initial expectations.

Maybe if some of you might have heard Saylor suggest that there might be some consideration in terms of dying with your coins in order to thereby pass all of your coins on to the then existing bitcoin holders by making the bitcoin more scarce, and so I was thinking about this thread in that light - even though I ended up being quite wrong.

I got the sense that there was a bit of promotion of the cryptosteel idea, and some skepticisms regarding having too much reliance on technology and so a lot of that makes sense, as well as having back-ups and maybe no single point of vulnerability - which could even become problematic if you fail/refuse to tell anyone about your coins and so are they going to recognize the value of some piece of paper or even a piece of metal with some words on it, if they have not been given a certain amount of instruction.


I had initially merited adaseb's earlier post in this thread in which he mentioned the creation of some kind of song or poem or story, and even though I kind of thought of it as a bit dumb and complicated and vulnerable for some the reasons that o_e_l_e_o pointed out, o_e_l_e_o's post also reminded me of one of my cumbersome ways that I had travelled with a wallet at various times between 2018 and 2022, and even though I had some back ups in other places, I wanted to have access to that wallet on my various electronic devices including my couple of phones and a couple of computers that I had been traveling with in case any of them got taken I had that story that I had created on each of the electronic devices.. .. and I did not ever need to use it in any kind of an emergency situation, but there were several times that I had tried to go through and to figure out the key (and it was a 24 word key) from the story and the formula that I had created in order to identify the words, and I frequently got confused.   

But surely it was not easy to put together a story from those 24 words without it coming off as kind of weird and awkward and to still fit into a kind of way that I could figure out which were the words and what were their order.  It was some point in 2022 that I had come to a conclusion that the wallet was overly vulnerable, so I had zeroed out the balance of whatever funds were remaining in it.. but I did not quite come to the conclusion that the way that I had written the story was overly vulnerable. even though it was a bit of an awkward kind of a story and perhaps if the awkwardness of the story is identified, and then there might be a bit of an expectation that the 3000 words or whatever it was would have had been part of a 24 word seed, then maybe there could have had been some kind of algorithmic attempt to figure out the words - but at the same time, i sort of split them up into a few parts so all of it was not within the same story... so yeah, maybe I was more vulnerable than I thought, but it was likely one of those kinds of ways of storing private back up keys that was so complicated that if it was the ONLY way that I had to get at my wallet, then maybe I would have had ended up losing the wallet... For me it was ONLY a kind of back up way of getting  at those words while I was traveling at various points in time and even if I no longer had my hardware wallet, I could go buy one and then plug the 24 words into it at some remote location.. if needed. and to have enough funds to to take care of quite a few possible emergency situations that could come about and have some ability to be accomplished through bitcoin.


I agree with your overall sentiment coolcoinz, but your 100% certainty of a 10x price increase in 10 years is quite striking, even if you might end up being correct.

I do like the idea that you paint though - because several of the posters in this thread stated that we don't really know what bitcoin is going to do so anything can happen, blah blah blah.. bitcoin might go up and it might go down and its a coin toss.. and surely that is bullshit on the other side that could cause someone to either not invest into bitcoin or to engage in various kinds of trading or selling along the way or even taking unnecessary risks because "no one knows if bitcoin is going to be valuable" in 18-20 years.

I think that the point that you clearly are making, whether we talk about buying 0.1 BTC of a $7k bitcoin (which would be $700) in early 2020 versus buying 0.05 BTC right now of a $28k bitcoin, which would be $1,400, we still likely have good chances of being way up on our bitcoin 10 years, 20 years and/or 30 years down the road as compared with other places that we might have invested that same amount of value and just sat upon it.  We don't even necessarily need to get 10x in the next 10 years or even 5x in the next 10 years and 2.5x in the following 10 years and 1.25 x in the following 10 years, even though maybe i am understanding the asymmetric nature of the bet and the seeming decent likelihood that bitcoin is at least likely to keep up with inflation and surpass it in value, but like you mentioned, even if you end up being wrong, the most you are out is $700 in your case and $1,400 in my revised case of purchasing ONLY 0.05 BTC.

So a similar thing ends up being true in regards to if we might be passing down value, yet we cannot be really sure if the value is going to be up or down, but we still might presume that whatever value that we choose to put into bitcoin today that we have decently good chances that it will remain a good asymmetric bet, and it may well not even be true that we are locked into having to keep the value in bitcoin for 18-20 years or that we have locked ourselves out of the value (like a timelock) because there is nothing in the OP that presents the topic in that way, and probably any kind of safe, prudent, practicable and reasonable approach would include some kind of ongoing checking on the functionality of the keys from time to time. .. and surely people likely do get lazy in some of these kinds of matters and maybe wait too long before doing some kind of a prudent check of the ongoing functioning of the keys or maybe if these ways of checking would vary depending on what might have had been our storage mechanism...and/or the back ups.

And you do not take into account the fact that a sufficiently large number of coins are lost without the possibility of returning them. Do you think this process can be stopped? No, it's not. Therefore, this process continues and will be in the future.
It’s even hard to imagine, but it’s impossible to exclude everything at the moment that a large investment company, as a result of some force majeure circumstances, will lose access to a huge number of coins. This is in place. This happened more than once.
We see that the coins are being mined, but the value is not growing proportionally. Something is wrong here. And what? Most likely, a speculative component, but this is not the point.
Are there options for transferring crypto after death? The question is, of course, rhetorical. It's just a matter of choosing a method. How to present it to those people who have never dealt with all this and know nothing?

It's a common problem with all self created schemes or ideas like this one. It seems obvious to you at the time, but skip forward a few weeks or months without thinking about it and you simply forget the intricacies of what you've done and make it very difficult to recover. To add to what I said on that old post you quoted - not only do you have to shoehorn your 24 words in to an awkward sounding story, but you'll also need to make sure none of the other 2048 commonly used words from the BIP39 word list are in your story. No point having a story which contains 100 words from the wordlist and being unable to remember which are the important 24 words.

If you need to carry a wallet with you, then a hardware wallet is the best solution for this. If you need to hide the fact you are carrying a wallet with you, then I would likely encrypt it inside a hidden volume which could be decrypted if forced to reveal some dummy sensitive data.

If bitcoin is still relevant and good in 20-30 years then this is a good idea. Not only will it be a very useful gift for kids in the future so they can have a boost for their financial needs, but it will also be a good introduction to the world of Bitcoin and cryptocurrency as they have something to start with. However, using flash drives, USB, and other hardware can be pretty difficult for the future generation to use as I am sure other hardware storage will be developed and the hardware that we use now will be phased out or will be replaced, the ports will be replaced as well, making it difficult for them to use and access the satoshis we gifted them with. Hence, I think using a paper wallet will be better, as long as it is stored properly and it can be guaranteed that only the kid will be able to access it once they are of the right age.

For anyone who wants to know more about paper wallets or for those who are not familiar with them, here is a post by Jake Frenkenfield about paper wallets and everything there is to know about them: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/paper-wallet.asp

Thanks for being willing to introduce bitcoin to a certain number of people before you leave Mother Earth, I have almost gave up on introducing Bitcoin to people, illiteracy in my country have blindfolded many people around me, but a simple plumber who restores my water pipe issue brings back my lost zeal, he accepted bitcoin as payment and that got me good.

It's a shame that the majority of family members want to compete, they hope I fail and they want to be the last man standing, while I don't want to compete with any of them I just decided to leave them be, I mean, Bitcoin isn't something we can force on certain people, it's not because they won't understand, but their compete habit won't let them learn, after all what do I know?

The Lord is your strength @qiwoman2, my advice is we can't force Bitcoin on them, but we can always do our best and leave the rest, Bitcoin will survive, and many unborn babies will benefit, it will be a good view watching from the other side too but I pray we live longer to at least experience how things will unfold for Bitcoin.

Cheers.

You seem to be one step of where I was when I created my scheme and one step ahead of where I plan to go.  I had a way of identifying the words, but there were likely hundreds of words in the story that were also potential BIP39 words because I did not engage in any kind of elimination - since I considered my other ways of identifying the words to be sufficiently good (even though prone to errors including memory errors like we have both acknowledged).


Much of that time, especially if I was on a longer trip, I would already be traveling with one or two hardware wallets, and I think that my system was not so great, but those wallets tended to have other seeds on them.  .. so the balances would not be more than a few thousand dollars if I was passing over borders.. but if you remember our price rises in late 2020 to early 2021 and then again in late 2021.. the 2020 value had kind of far exceeded what I had considered to be prudent limits since we largely went from around $8k to $64k in that first run.. .. so even something like $2k would have turned into close to $16k.. so some actions might have had been prudent, if there might have been times in there might have been a crossing of a border or something like that.

By the way, I have found the use of the extra passwords (25th word) and abilities to have multiple other wallet portals through the use of such 25 words to be a very interesting and helpful feature, and sure I am not as familiar with the use of the brick pin or some other ways in which the technology and the various practices/use cases are continuing to develop.  Sometimes I like to see something in play for a while before I start to try to use it myself, and the 25th word kind of scared me until I started using it.. the same was true in 2017 when I moved a large quantity of my BTC off of various exchanges in order to minimize my exposure in that regard... once you put some of the self-custodial matters or even some of the tricks into practice, they become more familiar and even start to seem like they can be adopted in ways to bring higher levels of confidence.. but surely not without some of the own risks of forgetting your 25th word for example (or even making it too easy, as another example).

This is what makes me really stop on telling people around me about Bitcoin on which it would really be turning out that im a bad guy on introducing things that really looks like an alien to them on which it would really be

just that ending up that you are really that tending to hook them on something dangerous which it do really sucks on having that kind of feeling on which our intents arent really supposed to be that way but it turns out that we are really that tending them to put people in harm which is really that totally the opposite.This is why i have decided that its better to be silent and would really be minding my own business and would really be continuing on what im doing in terms of accumulation. Im just letting that recognition and adoption to have its move since its something that cant be stopped. The thing that i dont really like is that im getting blamed
on something which i havent done and having those kind of regrets and bashes that i shouldnt have introduced something to them which it did really result in losing money.
Just let those youngster do able to learn up things neither by other sources or methods or paths.It would depend on a certain person if they would tend to fasten it up at least even on the smallest scale or type of introduction.

Not really is the word as I could see that he posted once this year as far back as February but has been gone since then, perhaps follows tbe forum passively as a guest.

Yet again, it was a carefully thought through plan that had a the right considerations and the course of execution is maintained in the hands of the parent or guardian of the child. Let's hope they don't try to be funny with it by accessing it themselves before the expected 18year time frame on any course.

It's no new news that the course to bitcoin and its keywords seed phrase safety have been met with several views on what could be considered best and somehow, we could only hope but, the fast pace at which technology continues to advance from micro to nano and now simbless devices are been produced, 18years seems like a far distant time for the establishment of gaps between today existing  innovations but then, it wouldn't much on the importation of wallets so, I still see the move to be potent.

I've had the same reservations too. Part of me believes that bitcoin would endure and would remain relevant for years to come, but on the other hand I can't help but be pessimistic/realistic about the tenure of things and think that something else will surely take its place in the future, if not a whole paradigm shift of cryptocurrency and decentralized finance. Tools utilization is another thing as well, but with the trend that things are going to I think we'd still be able to use USB sticks with future computers, just bear in mind the fact that even though nobody uses those goddamned mouse and keyboard adapters anymore, computer companies still leave them up for some reason. I believe that if things go well and we don't kill ourselves with war, at least enough for us to see how things will go through in the future, we'd still be able to use regular old USB sticks, so trezor wallets are still relevant and all that.

if we're being honest, you're not to blame for people's inability to do their own research. If you introduce them to Bitcoin, and they make rash decisions without understanding the intricacies, thats on them. Its like giving someone a car; if they choose to drive recklessly without understanding the rules, who's at fault?

Introducing someone to a new concept doesnt make you a villain; it makes you a visionary. And for those who bash you for their losses, remind them that the stock market isnt a guaranteed win either. People lose money there every day. Its high time they take accountability for their decisions and stop scapegoating others. You're on the right path by minding your business. Let the naysayers wallow in their self-pity. The world needs more educators and less blame gamers.

There is some truth in what you are saying Blitzboy, and frequently I find myself telling people about bitcoin while at the same time suggesting that they don't come crying to me if they lose money on it or they fuck something up, and frequently people see my approach as NOT sufficiently advocating for what I am saying that they do because I am not standing behind it sufficiently enough... and yeah there is ONLY so much that any of us can do (including letting people know that they are responsible for their own decisions, including not deciding and not acting), and maybe sometimes we do end up getting more raveled into helping someone (and holding their hands) in way too many ways, and it can be a difficult balance because some people actually need some hand-holding in order to really get started enough and to a far enough place that they can be thereafter be let out on their own.

Also, how well might we know the person, and are they really listening?  If they are asking their own questions, then likely they are listening, and sure some people might not ask very many questions and they still might be absorbing some of the information, so it might take several follow-ups to confirm that they sufficiently understand the information that has been shared with them.

And even in the case of something like inheritance or passing down gifts, there may well be some value in following up 1, 2, 3, 5 years or more down the road to figure out where the other person may be and if they have sufficiently retained the information that might have been shared at a point or several points earlier.  

For sure interacting is likely way easier, but interacting can vary, so if you might tell your 10 year old about some bitcoin related information, and then you might not yet be at a point where you are comfortable with the 10 year old interacting with bitcoin, even though it could be possible to go down that road.. or if you are interacting with older relatives, some of them may or may not be willing to share some of their own finances, and they might have their own ideas that could get in the way regarding how to present matters or even trying to suggest that they "need to" learn something (technology) that might relate to something in which they already have  a lot of opinions and experiences (maybe not good opinions/experiences, but still).

I think some of this depends on how willing and self development they are ought to be because you could try all means to pass information and knowledge to people but the abilities and desires for such people or groups of person's to dilute those Information given to results as a point of interest ( there are some fellow who loves the words "bitcoin" but had barely give it a time).

You and I know today that for someone to be fully bathed in bitcoin and all tells that relates with formation and configuration and reserved on self development that leads to self study and reliance. Though it's pretty much cool learning and gaining the knowledge from those whom we may think that are better than them but willingness to put more efforts to practice depends on personal interest.

 I don't think holding hands could solved the problems of those who are wishing for a self development as I think we are in a computerised world were information could likely be source and diluted without having to be much more depending on personal tells from those whom we may introduce to the space.
The world is fast rising place which everyone I mean, anyone are liable for whatever lose the incurred while accepting to ventured into bitcoin investment. The truth is before investment we should first accept the risk aspect before the benefits aspect of it.

Sure, there likely needs to be some motivation for learning and/or taking some steps to set up a wallet or to learn about how to use a bitcoin wallet if there happens to be "free bitcoin" inside, and maybe the recipient of the gift is not going to pay attention until the amount gets to be over a certain amount or they perceive some kind of value that they can get from the gift (the bitcoin) that they perceive to outweigh the costs upon them to have to learn or to have to listen to a parent who is "lecturing at" them.

Maybe the giver teaches the bitcoin recipient that the recipient has a duty to pass on and to hold the family legacy, and maybe that could be an incentive for some recipients to want to learn and to take on such responsibility.  Sometimes it is not clear how to inspire someone who might otherwise not be inspired or feel some kind of a need to learn.

Yes it's true. Interacting Bitcoin information to a 10year old can be sometimes uncomfortable. considering the fact that the mental ability can not comprehend Bitcoin. But one thing Is for sure. the journey of Bitcoin does not start a day. People usually become interested in learning, expecially when it's a money related discussion.

If you discuss Bitcoin information to your 10year child and he can't comprehend, you tell him about the inportant of Bitcoin the value and what the future will be and how much you have accumulated, he will be triggered to learn faster. It will definitely take alot of time for them to fully understand, but never the less as you grow in Bitcoin ability also try to grow with your children. Don't always see them as children.

Just like the topic, gifting Satoshi to the future generations to me I sugest that educating your child/children on Bitcoin at early stages is the best option. So that when they are more advanced you will not be afraid of losing your Bitcoin to an outdated Bitcoin storage facility. Or being afraid of the type of USB or hard disk to store. Because when dey are fully aware of Bitcoin even when you are no more on planet Earth and a new update on Bitcoin is available dey will definitely figure out a way to extract Bitcoin or update it.

I don't really disagree with anything that you are saying Samlucky O   - except maybe I am trying to suggest that it becomes very difficult to presume the level of motivation and/or ability to learn that people have - and from my perspective, you seem to want to presume that the fact that there is money that can be gotten, then they are going to pay more attention and even realize the importance of learning - which may or may not end up being true.

We see a lot of examples in the world in which people appreciate money that they get for "free" much less than they appreciate money that they had to engage in their own proof of work to acquire and to build and to maintain.

And people also have different kinds of personalities, and yeah, maybe with the passage of time and through repetition, we can start to recognize the extent to which someone is becoming more motivated or less motivated, but I still doubt that we can count on any of those kinds of things progressing in the direction that we would like in terms of the abilities of people to retain information in their memories or even what incentivizes them, even though a lot of people are incentivized by money, but not everyone even though some people will still be incentivized by some of the freedoms that money could provide them in terms of getting other things that they like.. including maybe the ability to not have to work (meaning that they can choose their activities rather than being forced) or the ability to feed themselves with higher quality food, which sometimes people might not realize sacrifices that they might be making in terms of their own dietary choices based on marginal price differences.