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For a long time I was thinking that [fiat] online casinos are required to run licensed software just to ensure the players that they don't cheat, but then I understood that there's another side to it - casinos are traditionally a good spot for money laundering, so the government needs to be sure that the house doesn't create fake winnings for some players. As you know, the provably fair system guarantees that neither the player nor the house cheat, but when both the player and the house are the same entity, they know the result of the bet before it is made and can alter it.

Do you think it's possible to create a system where a third party can verify that the outcome of the bet wasn't known to any of the parties ahead of the time?

I don't think that would be possible or feasible.
For that to happen there should be a central regulatory entity that should maintain a different hash of it's own and provide it to every casinos. And the result should be the combination of the three. With current market where there are several ways to implement the provably fair system. It would be difficult to convince casinos to use the same system. And the third regulatory party involved too would require a operation cost as it would keep providing as well as self verifying every bet.

You have an idea in which gambling could be used for money laundering and so on. The Chinese nationals are actually taking advantage of it. They establish gambling sites where people can clean their money. Probably that idea is too costly for the casinos to accept, as well. In fact, the casinos will lose a lot of profit for their operation as the authorities could use that third part of the software as an advantage to casinos. It is like self-destruction for the casinos by giving the rights to the third party to software admins to place a 100% winning rate bet. Nevertheless, yes, their gray area of the source of income will be compromised as well.

I think this is possible to do but requires additional costs because the third parties also needs funds to develop the system and also finance their operations.
However, the opportunity to continue to use the casino as a place for money laundering is still possible, with the casino cooporate to commit fraud unless the system itself is made by the goverment that has the most interest in combating money laundering.

We are in the modern world now were all we want can created as long it is all about the technology everything can make a solutions.
Yes, i think it was possible to make, but it requires a lot of brain storming, research about money laundering and also the funds/sponsor for you project are also needed.
Your ideal system is very helpful because many people are cheater that's why creating a third party system is a fair to all gamblers/

Personally, I don't think there will be any problems in casinos that are well controlled and work with some honest licensing companies. Auditing is a very important factor in this regard. Any well-controlled casino will make its best effort not to make a mistake. However, as we know, online casino can be easily published with a few simple scripts. And it doesn't even have to have any license. For this reason, players like us should be conscious of this issue first.

I think things like this already exist, probably for mostly the Crypto-based casinos. Regulator could use the tool/system ("provable fair verifier", I guess) for their own verifications, of they are not doing so already. Such tool could be more reliable than the non-crypto based ones( assuming there is such thing like that outside of crypto).

I don't think a central authority checking casinos is a good thing since this goes against the decentralized anonymous nature of crypto which is why I don't think this is feasible at all.

I guess you misunderstood his post. The provable fair verifier tool that you mentioned can help check whether bets are legit, but what if the bets are placed by a single entity(House = Player) in order to conduct various operations? This is what op tried to convey through his post.

I guess this would be depending on the game, speaking about games where there is a house edge and they are claiming they are provably fair and they get a license for that then for sure that system is correct, otherwise why are they so confident.

Now on your concern if it's possible that a player would know the outcome, if the system is provably fair, no one would know until the game was process, otherwise its not probably fair.

Gambling game sites that already get a license I think that's fair because they have become the best to be home in the game.
I don't think that's unfair because there are already many people using it, so what are you worried about here?
So whatever happens with the results of the game then it must be ready to accept it because it is a risk in gambling games so in my opinion its unfair cannot be proven even though we already knew the results before.
Only think positively what we play in that house.

I admit I don't have any idea how such a system could be created and how it would possibly work but I think that is very possible. If a system could be made verifiable from the side of the players then it could also be made verifiable from a third party. I think gambling regulators will definitely come up with such a tool, if they have not yet, to make sure gambling casinos are not just becoming a money laundering system.

They have to because if they cheat, they'll face the consequences, when a gambling site applies for a license, it's not the gambling site that will dictate on the terms, its the government, and therefore gambling sites has to follow the requirements in order for them to pass and will be granted a license.

if they cheap the government in any way, that's called a violation of the law, and there is a corresponding punishment on that, depending on how serious the case is against the gambling site.

I guess it is impossible to last long, gamblers are also not too stupid they can pay attention or calculate, unless the game is full of luck.
if not, it will be difficult even for a few moments.
they can be reported if the law does expressly issue this regulation.
or their casino will be quiet because people will find out the cheating sooner or later.

They would need to abide if they wont like for their business to be fucked up once they've been caught.Of course they are fully aware on terms and regulations that they should follow.
I wont say that their totally fair.It would vary on the house if they would consider on making those shady movements for their benefit but for a big business like casinos then
i dont see a reason for them to do such thing.They would prefer for their business to go long term rather than being busted on a short period of time.


They can cheat but as said, nothing do last forever and yes, players arent that dumb not to detect any rigged situations.

Yes, its possible I remember hearing a similar discussion in bustabit or bustadice chat room (forgot which one) and they explained this kind of provably fair to one of their users that was curious. I think you can also find this topic being discussed in their main thread. There's positives and negatives to it but still possible afaik.

the what ? the verfication of bets  ? or as known as provaly fair system  ? and what is its negative side  ? i dont think it has but i can only say that its a good idea that they implement such system because this  is for their users to verify if the site is legit or not .

 online gamber will be more confident if a platform is provably fair than compare to not    . the topic is also on other gaambling forums and as well here too  .  there are explanations that have been laid out if how those stuffs work   .

It's only possible if the offline casinos remove their slot machines and replace them with computer systems connected to one server. The physical slot machines can't be connected to a single network so desktop computers will be needed there. It will be very similar to the online casinos that we have today. Imagine the website as a physical casino floor where 10 computers are given to play Roulette and another 10 computers are given for blackjack and another 10 for Plinko. All of these systems are connected to a central server which ensures that the games are provably fair.

That doesn't look much feasible because majority of the players visit physical casinos for experience and relaxation. If this is implemented, casino floors will look more like a cyber cafe!

Yes, they should be fair because regulators did their part as they are doing their best just to manage the platform or casino that most of us are using. Cheating in gambling must be prohibited and should not be tolerated so that those people who will scam and hack the casino will face the consequences of that. Most of the people who use hacks are in a gambling section where crypto are being used, they see that there is more money in crypto than in gambling casino who only use fiat currency. Sadly, our regulators are still having a hard time fixing the problems in a certain gambling casino as it is not easy to handle it. That's true that license is essential so that the gambling casino is supported by the government. It is not that hard to have the license aifthe gambling casino is legit and follow some standard or they fulfill the requirements that is needed.

You guys are funny. You want regulators to help make casinos fair? We have crypto gambling and provably fair concepts which already mean we can prove for ourselves the game outcomes are fair. Regulators can't do much. They can force audits, and then we can get certifications from third parties but how do we know for ourselves that things are fair? Only by provably fair algorithms!

I think maybe that is work in the land-based casino because the government can control the casino by requiring the owners to send the report to the government. The government will know if the casino cheats them and use the casino for money laundering. But I don't think that will easy if it's applying in the online casino because every owner of the gambling site will stay anonymous, and only a few people will know about them. It is what I am thinking so far because I see that on every website, it is difficult to know who the owner is.

Verification of users are also important so it is necessary to implement it in all of the gambling casinos and site as people are really good at fooling people. Hackers should be detected if it entered a certain gambling platform, manipulator are the one who's very affected. Verification of bets, identity, and etc., of the customers should be strict so that fairness in gambling will stay in its casino. Working hard regulator manages to become more fair when it comes on giving service and managing our casinos so that all of the customers will also be comfortable and enjoyable.


It is perfect for this season as you can't go outside to gamble and many of us prefers using online gambling, customers online will enjoy and be satisfied as this gambling casino is very fair and it value customers rights to have a safer gambling experience. Everyone wants comfort while playing with their money so that gambling casinos should verify its customer so that scammers will not enter their platform. We don't understand the effort of the regulator because we don't see what's happening inside the gambling platform, the thing they make is not that easy to do most especially when you're in a wide and popular gambling platform.

When a casino is regulated, regulators will ensure they can't cheat against its gamblers, that's the first priority, and 2nd is they can't cheat against the government as an everyone single profit the site will earn, the government is entitled with a certain percentage as tax.

I thought their firs priority is the tax.. lol..

Tax is the lifeblood so that should be, but anyway that is not important, what's important is the site will comply with the rules so they will be able to continue their business and continue to make profit as well, of course if they choose to cheat, they can certainly do that, but that's their call as they know the risk and the consequence when they get caught, not only they destroy their reputation, they could also go to jail.

A few ideas:
- The government manages server seed hash;
- Use future block hash, for example Bitcoin block hash (only applicable for some games);
- Compliance with KYC and AML (regulated).

Well, if we talking about regulators, the outcome won't be fun.

I am not sure the government will go technical on just approving the license, they may have an idea about it but they will only be limited to monitoring and implementing sanction for violators. Managing would be the job of the gambling site, they are responsible for their actions, therefore they need to comply everything.


This is given, we can expect the site will implement this and gambling would not be as easy as today.

I think there are some casinos that are doing that, the backdoor per se. Do you think all casinos are honest to the core and following all the rules and regulations? and the provable fairness, I guess it is the responsibility of the casino itself. maybe the government rep will randomly check but it will not be on a regular basis. though I don't have the knowledge about the govt checklist on how they check legal casinos but i guess they will not be so strict if the casino has already acquired gambling license.

A lot of difficulties will be associated with the fact that in different countries cryptocurrency has a completely different legal status.
In some countries, this status has not yet been determined what to take cryptocurrency out of state control, which means it can also be used to launder money through a casino.

They will prioritize the safety of the gamblers as that is the recipe for them to continue collecting taxes, if the site keeps its good reputation, they will continue to be profitable and they will also continue to pay the taxes due to the government.

In short, it can once crypto itself becomes well-regulated there. Until then not likely we'll see legit and fair crypto gambling to regulators.

Provably fair is provably fair, there is no reason to check anything else, even if casino itself creates a user themselves and gamble they do not hold any advantage that is not in the gamblers itself, they are risking as much as other gamblers. The only thing they can actually get out of creating some gamblers themselves (so faking the user number) would be marketing, if you have hundreds of people playing on your website at all times others will think you are cool and will join as well and you will have organic 100+ instead. That is literally the only thing I can think of right now.

There could also be competitions of wagering where they fake numbers and just lose to themselves to get the win and not pay to others. However, there is no stealing investors money by gambling, you lose equally at all times even if you are the house making a new gambler.

Fiat based gambling sites need to be audited well to avoid money laundering but giving the rights to third party doesn't look great idea to be honest.When crypto gambling sites claims that they are provably fair means they are having nothing to cheat so verifying the random bets will be enough to check their legitimacy.

+1 to this!

Once your gambling site had been approved then it does signify that it already complied with the rules this is a no-joke business if we do talk on expense or on how big it is.
Its just too dumb for you to mind on doing shady acts to make money on that particular time and of course you will surely think about long term aspects.
I agree that increasing or faking out numbers is one of market strategy that been commonly used and im not surprised with that one.

Casinos which are primarily based on accepting cryptos doesn't rely on the regulation and so does the users using them up. But rather the reputation of the site are considered to an extent. Some of them do have open source code which does prove that the casino is running a provably fair site and they aren't scamming the players.

If the outcome of a particular bet is to be known to the gambler or verifying of such an instance by running up a script, it would violate the gambler user agreement with the casino and vice versa. I rely on the trustworthy casinos like FJ, Cryptogames, Freebitco for my rolls and the probability of themselves scamming is of utmost null.

I don't want to be pessimistic but I'm not sure the government can do this. In what way the government can ensure people that they guarantee the real winning in a match (not fake winning)? Even the government can make a certain regulation, but it can be manipulated as it is totally the authority of the gambling sites (company). It is the trust-based between the gamblers and gambling sites (company), people will leave them if they know the gambling sites (company) are cheating. And I think the gamblers now are quite smart.  :D

I don't think the cheater will use online casinos for money laundering but I don't deny this possibility at the same time. The fairness is relative for both player and casinos, so finding the gold balance will be feasible solution for both sides. Regulators work hard for seizing the funds of money laundries but it will be the forever if everything is encrypted with the help of decentralized blockchain technology.

Crypto casinos has nothing to do different with the regulators and the regulators do not really care about the crypto side of the business, as long as the casino itself is regulated. On top of that, each need to remember that the regulatory challenge is the exchanges and wallets, and not the operators.

Blockchain tech BTW solving this issue easily, so if the casino is blockchain based, its easy for the regulator to do their work

I think that will not be necessary because there will investigations when that happens and I think that is not worth it because you have to spend money to have the maintenance of regulators, it is more beter for investigations because I am there will be audit trail.

Why would casino would still risk on doing that when they have the house edge and they can win most of the time.
There is a saying that "casino always wins" that is true that is why they are profitable and their industry is growing, and most I can read int he news is that gamblers are cheating on the casino, popular ones are gambling cheating vegas.

I think it would be possible if it weren't so useless. Provably fair system allows players to verify any bet to ensure that all mathematical rules have been followed. In case of including some regulator or other intermediary, players require to trust not only casino owners, but also that third party, which could be a bad actor and cheat on their part. If casino doesn't follow rules or try to cheat with altered hashes, it could be revealed after a while anyway. What we might need here to implement is a system similar to decentralized blockchain where consensus rules are clear and can't be changed.

The regulators would already check the gambling site that will apply for a license, and they will not approve it if they will not pass the requirement.
Well, along the way, it's also possible that the site could cheat since not all the time the regulators are operating, but these days, gamblers are already smart, they will do an audit of their own to determine if the site is still trustworthy.

Creating a third-party system to oversee the affairs of an organization or company has never yielded any positive results to my understanding, instead it causes delay and distrust in the system and most times increases the expenses to run a business. Assuming there's an automated method that this can be done quickly (which I'm quite sure can be achieved using the blockchain) then I'll recommend it should be encouraged.

Creating any company to over a companies doesn't make the work any less easier or faster. I strongly believe the cryptocurrency gambling platforms has been quite fair to their possible best since over my stay in the space, I haven't encountered much complains regarding the unfairness of the crypto casinos.

I don't think either that third party companies will help cryptocurrency gambling companies to work better. Cryptocurrency gambling industry shouldn't rely on centralized authorities when it comes to verify if cryptography really do things as it was algorythmically programmed. Decision must be found through using of methods that apply in blockchain rules. Without third party, without intermediaries, trustless. If anything requires trust, it can't be verified, so it is not provably fair system.

never see a gambling site that used a third party service or company for verification matters   .  there are sites being created for opening bets archive that arent related to that site but this isnt a big deal as its only bets that your trying to open and not the verification of bets if the bet made is provably fair or not   .

third party service/companies is okay and can help a gambling site improve on other things even on security  but cryptography and blockchain should work traditionaly the way it was built  .

For land casinos, they are required to do all these checklists https://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=62, but it's not "provably fair" like what we see in online casinos. With the same logic, online casinos may have to do strict auditing similar to it, which is ugly, and after all the hassle, it's not provably fair per se since auditing stuff can be gamed, just like the Enron case.

You are right because in the time that they would get a license, of course there would really be test up about fairness of the site before they would be granted of such license
but still not a sure thing that it wont be changed soon according to their likes.

I agree that gamblers nowadays or even in the past are quite clever in terms if they do find out something shady is happening.I dont see for gambling owners to
risk out to cheat their users and will give out bad reputation into their site.

Crypto gambling sites don't need to prove their provable fairness because they operate outside the scope of these regulatory agencies.

Because of this, these sites don't need a system to prove that they are operating fairly, since they're not going to get a license anyway. Instead, these platforms just do what is necessary to prove to their players that they are operating fairly.

Most platforms just allow players to check their seeds to see that they haven't been modified. That's about as far as they go unfortunately.

And for how long it will continue like that? If there will be big cases of money laundering, the regulators and law enforcement will turn their attention to crypto casinos, and they will be forced to move to the darknet, which will be bad for their business, since it would make their sites slow and harder to access. In this light, legalizing is an alternative to that, but it would make them more expensive to players. However, it would also mean for players that their winnings will be legal.

Note, I'm not saying here that legalization and regulation are good or bad, I'm just discussing the future of crypto casinos.

I think with the provably fair system that casinos use can't alter the bet or know the outcome because it's the "provably fair" part of the system, right? With the gaming law in place in some places, their job is to give licenses to the ones who apply it. So, therefore, I don't think they would be ultimately deciding the regulations just on the "provably fair" part of the online casino, it's the entirety.

I'm talking about the provably fair part since they've been doing it with bustadice, it's kind of like a multi sig where it's divided to three parties. Here's a quote from bustadice's thread explaining the whole thing.

That definitely sounds like one of the working solutions to the problem of not so provable fairness. Another proof of unnecessity and uselessness of third party controls, all problems can be solved within a particular casino. Nonetheless, some problems still exist, for example, necessity of trust to people controlling game server and audit server, they still can collude and change some bets results. There is no problem I guess when casino is reputable, they are long enough in gambling business and likely won't cheat, although I can't be so sure in case of fresh casinos.

Definitely, in the early days when dice was still starting to be popular, there are sites that are not license but because we trust on the provable fairness, we still gamble because we believe on them and they are called as reputable site, how much more if they will be regulated, more safe for the gamblers.

Regulators job will issue a license under a certain conditions and licensee should comply all of that for them to get the license, and in that condition are rules that they need to comply which is for the fairness of the casino and their responsibility to the government which is the tax.

Yes, they are having guidelines and protocol, on which party should they give the license to operate, and when the time they will give them a licensed they are also going to monitor the progress and the all the flow of the website, so that both parties are having a secured transactions. Regulators needed to be transparent in all means, since we are talking a large amount of money in here.

Most of the casinos are aware of this issue. If a casino starts running without a license, they will be facing some problems in the long run. The authorities are also not stupid. None of the casino will be willing to support such huge crime. Now, lets say a dummy casino was made to launder money. They will have to eventually move those money somewhere. If they wants to convert it to fiat currency, it will have to go through an exchange. The exchange will have AML and KYC policies, thus the launderers will eventually get caught.
The only option they have is to make direct P2P transaction. Now if they could make a direct P2P transaction, then laundering the money through a casino makes no sense.