Bitcoin Forum

I hadn't checked my nano in a while so upon firing up my ledger live it prompted me to update my nano firmware.  I followed the instructions.  Since it wasn't a brand new device and had bitcoin on it I chose the option "restore my device". 

After installing bitcoin apps, under my portfolio the account has a 0 balance!

I've checked the receive address and compared to the address I initially sent the bitcoin to from my exchange and they are different.  If I go to blockchain.com and the blockchain explorer the initial address has the exact amount of btc that should be in my wallet right now.  And of course if I check the current "receive" address in my nano it has a 0 balance.

Any suggestions on how to fix this?

We'll need a bit more information to help you out first.

At any point during the upgrade process did you have to re-enter your 24 word seed phrase? If you did, are you sure you entered it correctly?

On Ledger Live, try adding a new bitcoin account and ensure there are no previously used accounts there that you have simply forgotten to add.

What is the first character of your old receiving address (the one with the BTC present)? What is the first character of your new receiving address?

If you checked your address/addresses on an explorer and the balance is correct, that is a good thing. You could have made a mistake and entered a wrong word while restoring your wallet. Are you 100% sure you used the correct words and sequence? Go back and check the words again and make sure they are correct. If you enter a different word or sequence, you will see a completely different set of addresses with 0 balance. 

Yes.  So I did re-enter the seed when ledger live prompted me to manually reset the nano.  I entered the 24 words and set a new password.  Everything went smoothly.  Yet same result with 0 balance.

The first character is 3 for my initial receiving address was 3.  Since the update after installing the bitcoin apps I have both a segwit and native segwit account.  Of course both 0 balances.  The native segwit beings with a 'b' and the segwit begins with a '3' as well.

That's a big relief to hear.  I did manually reset my nano for a second time and reentered the words just in case and I had no issues.  The result was the same though.  And it still shows a 0 balance on my bitcoin account.

Interestingly though every time I reset the nano and reinstall the bitcoin app its coming up with the same address with a 0 btc balance.  It doesn't seem random but I can't understand why it changed from the initial address that had was on the nano pre update.

How did you check the addresses at the moment of sending the funds to the wallet? And how did you input it on the exchange? For what I've read so far on the topic, you may had had some malware on your browser that changed the receiving address to one that's not yours.

That's alarming.  When I made the initial transfer I checked the balance on my ledger live and had no issues.  I can check the transaction details on my exchange and those addresses matched up just fine before with the nano.  I initially hit the receive tab on ledger live to get my address and verified with the hardware, then used the native copy to clipboard button on the ledger live to input on the exchange.

I think Csmiami is asking whether you confirmed if you had written down the seed phrase correctly when you first initialized your Ledger.  It's a good habit to get into to verify your seed phrase right after you create it.  There are many ways to verify the phrase, I do so by recording a couple of the bitcoin addresses, then resetting the wallet and restoring it using the seed I just created.  The addresses I recorded and the addresses in the wallet should match after restoration.

Your current situation could be caused by one of the words in your seed phrase being incorrect.  You may have written the wrong word on your paper backup, or your backup might be correct, but you're typing one of the words wrong.  For example, I've had trouble with library and liberty in the past.  Luckily had written the right word on my paper backup, but I kept reading it wrong when I entered it into the wallet.

There is a 1 in 256 chance you could be entering one of the words incorrectly and still passing the checksum, so this is highly unlikely. Therefore, if your seed phrase was accepted by the Ledger, then chances are that it is correct.

Can you confirm that you previously viewed your original address (which has bitcoins on it) in Ledger Live, and it all looked correct (and you didn't just view it on a block explorer)?

There are two possibilities which occur to me as potential explanations for what is happening here:

Firstly, did you previously use a passphrase on the Ledger Nano (this is different to the password you can use to unlock Ledger Live, and the PIN you use to unlock the Nano)? If you did, you must use the exact same passphrase again to access the same accounts and addresses.

Secondly, your original bitcoin address was in a different account or derivation path to the default one. This may be solvable by trying to add additional bitcoin accounts in Ledger Live, or it may need you to import your seed to another wallet where you can manually try different derivation paths. Try adding additional accounts first.

Not at all, I had misread the situation... I thought that he had sent the coins from exchange to wallet, then restored the wallet and then the coins were missing. "addresses don't match" kinda confused me; sorry for creating some confusion and I guess a most likely panic attack on the OP.

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I'm not sure as to how Ledger works, but is it possible that when he restored, the address with funds was "archived" or something similar, and that's why when clicking on "Receive" he is seeing a different one?

Similar to electrum using new addresses every time you click "receive"

Yes I did verify on my ledger live.  It was the only app I used to check my portfolio throughout 2019 and I had no issues with my balance.

I don't recall setting a passphrase.  And it doesn't prompt me to unlock either nano or ledger live using a passphrase.  Just the PIN for the device and password for LL.

When I try to add bitcoin accounts through LL I get an error in the process saying "Can't add a new account before you've received on your Bitcoin 1 (native segwit) account".

It could seem like a possibility there's not much else to explain this situation.  But to the best of my knowledge I'm sure I have the correct seed words.  This is my first and only crypto account and I was careful to check a few times while writing them down.  Although I've never recorded the public keys.  I didn't know that I had access to them...  Could the keys shine some light in this situation?

I think you read the situation correctly.  I initially sent the coins from exchange to wallet early last year.  I've had no problems accessing and checking the balance.  But yesterday when I plugged my nano to ledger it prompted a firmware update and reset my device.  So I "restored" my wallet and now the balance is 0.

So I did hear somewhere that addresses are reset similar to what you said about electrum.  But the correct balance seems to exist on the "old" address when I check blockchain explorer.

So your addresses are of the non-native segwit type if they begin with a 3. Will it allow you to add a second non-native segwit account? Note you are not trying to add a brand new account, but to import an account which already exists.

No, they won't provide any additional information.

The next step is likely importing your seed to Electrum to find your coins.

If you use Electrum you can open the other accounts, but that may not be necessary.  Does the account you have access to right now show any transactions from the past?  Was this your account, and do remember creating multiple accounts in Ledger Live?  If not then your accounts and derivation path are not likely to help.

If you want to check anyway, download Electrum from here, and here only: https://electrum.org/#download
Here's a tutorial on how to verify the download, a very important step when using Electrum: https://bitcoinelectrum.com/how-to-verify-your-electrum-download/
Here's Ledger's tutorial on how to use your Nano with Electrum: https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/articles/115005161925-Set-up-and-use-Electrum

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There's still much hope.  Compare the words you wrote down to the words in the Bip39 word list.  Look for any words similar to yours that you may have mistaken when writing down the seed phrase.

Bip39 word list: https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/master/bip-0039/bip-0039-wordlists.md

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That's not how hierarchical deterministic wallets work.  Each HD wallet can generate large numbers of wallet addresses, but they are all part of a single account.  You can generate multiple accounts by modifying the derivation paths.  All accounts will have different addresses.

The situation you describe would put all the funds into one single account, and Ledger Live would show a balance if there were funds in any of it's addresses.

Thank you.  The only way I know how to add any new account brand new or preexisting is through "add account" under "accounts" tab in LL.  And that yields the same result.

The current accounts showing have no transactions.  I've tried importing the csv to check logs and they're empty.  No portfolio activity.  When I initially transferred coins to my wallet I made 2 accounts on the nano.  Each with its own separate transaction from the exchange.

So that means that even though the address being shown when I hit the "receive" tab is different from the initial coin transfer address from a year ago, they should all be a part of the same account?  If that's so shouldn't the balance be correctly populated?

I will look into electrum as my option after checking with the bips and resetting my wallet one more time.

Thanks for the clarification.

Ledger would have imported those accounts if you had the correct seed.



Correct.  When you click "receive" in Ledger Live it will display the next unused address.  Most wallets behave similarly.

In your case, whether you sent bitcoin to two separate addresses in the same account, or whether you created two accounts and sent bitcoin to one address in each, Ledger Live would display your entire balance if you had the right seed phrase.

Things that spring to mind:

1. "Gap Limit" issue... if the original accounts were setup using the Chrome App and NOT Ledger Live, it's possible the coins were sent to an address past the gap limit or even a change address (if selected from the drop down menu instead of using "receive" tab)

2. Valid but incorrect seed... there have been instances in the past where users have managed to get seeds confused and use a wallet for a while but have a seed written down that doesn't match that particular wallet. Not likely given OPs claim that this is their only wallet.

3. Multiple "Accounts" within Ledger... 1st account is currently empty, so Ledger Live might not see if coins were sent to "2nd" accounts. Could test using Electrum and specifying 2nd or subsequent accounts in derivation path (ie. m/49'/0'/1')

4. "Forked" accounts? I know that there were all sorts of crazy things happening when the BCH fork first happened with the "split" accounts in Ledger Chrome App... I'm not sure if Ledger Live still looks for these? Was the device originally configured/setup within Chrome App or Ledger Live? ???

3.  That's an interesting one.  I did have 2 accounts, although each did have coins in them.  I'll try to edit the derivation path to your specs and see how that goes. 

As for 1 and 4 they the accounts were set up using a Ledger Live app and not a chrome one.

2.  Has been suggested a lot although I am 99% certain that I have the right seeds, I'll keep that in mind as a possibility.  If all else fails I'll have to do a btrecovery or something.

I appreciate the suggestions.

Provided that the wallet was set up using Ledger Live, your seed is correct, and you didn't use a passphrase, then I agree that multiple accounts is the most likely culprit here.

Follow DireWolfM14's links above regarding how to download, verify, and install Electrum. Create a new wallet by selecting "Standard wallet", "Use a hardware device", and then "Next" on the screen with your Ledger device selected. Choose "p2sh-segwit" on the next screen. This should show you a derivation path of m/49'/0'/0' at the bottom. Create this wallet and check for any balance. (It would also be useful to check if the any of the addresses in this wallet match up with the empty addresses you can currently see in Ledger Live.)

If all those addresses are empty, then repeat the steps above, but change the derivation path to m/49'/0'/1'. Then again with m/49'/0'/2'. I'd probably try 5 or 10 accounts just be sure.

I'm curious about this (and hopeful for the OP that it's that simple,) but if, for example, I had created two Ledger accounts, and then emptied the first, wouldn't Ledger Live still import that account since it has transactions in it?  If that is what's going on with the OP's situation, wouldn't he at least see some transactions in that first account, and wouldn't Ledger Live allow him to create (or import) the next account in that case?

I just tried those steps and no luck.  I tried the different variations for derivation paths for p2sh-segwit (at least 4) and did the same as well for native and legacy just in case.  Each time I deleted the default wallet and started over.

https://i.ibb.co/sKxbzBK/Screen-Shot-2020-03-31-at-1-28-13-PM.png

This is what I'm seeing each time.

Have you tried to clear cache the Ledger live?
If not yet try it first so that it will resync again or reinstall the ledger live and make sure to download the latest one because they recently updated their ledger live. Or try the ledger live on mobile it maybe shows the correct BTC addresses and balance.

If it still doesn't work try to contact the support of Ledger nano they might be able to solve this issue.

- https://support.ledger.com/hc/en-us/requests/new

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It seems a bug according to ledger support from twitter here https://twitter.com/ledger_support/status/1242808607504203778?s=21

Did any of the derivation paths generate an address which matches your currently empty receiving address on Ledger Live? Which one?

This is very strange. Are you absolutely sure you didn't previously use a passphrase and link it to a PIN on your hardware wallet? Are you absolutely sure you restored from the correct seed phrase for this wallet?

I concur... it's looking more likely to be caused by either:

1. BIP39 Passphrase

or

2. Incorrect backup seed

In both of these cases, recovery could prove very difficult if OP doesn't recall details of either :-\

But if you look at OP post with screenshot, problem is not only with Ledger Live, but also with Electrum. We can conclude that it's not about the user interface, but that OP is not entering correct seed, or he is forgotten that he set passphrase with his account.


That tweet is about portfolio value, in case presented by OP it's about something else entirely. The fact that the seed does not create addresses that should be recovered clearly shows where the problem really is.

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I recently checked my seed using two Ledger devices (S&X), and encountered no problem - all accounts/addresses have been successfully created by using seed from S model on X model.

I suspected that jeje10036's problem is with this seed phrase from the start.  He either wrote it down wrong, reading it wrong, entering it wrong, or he forgot that he updated his seed at some point, and he's using the wrong one all together.  There's also a distinct possibility that he attached a Bip39 passphrase to a secondary pin, which he's forgotten.  If his memory is as shot as mine, the fact that he hasn't tried to access his wallet in some time isn't helping him.

@jeje10036, I would suggest you try to recall if you have updated the seed at any point in the past, or if you had created a secondary PIN.  If you reuse PINs It might be worth trying others that you have used in the past.  If all else fails, continue to compare the seed words you have to similar words on the Bip39 list, maybe you wrote one down wrong, and it'll become obvious to you when you seed the comparisons side by side.

This situation should stress to all of us how important it is to keep accurate records of all your cyrpto information, even the old stuff that you plan to never use again.

Another thing that should be stressed with HD wallets (hardware or otherwise) is to confirm that you have written down the correct seed.  Every time I create a new seed, I create a watch-only version of that wallet, then destroy the original.  I then restore the wallet from seed and compare it to the watch only wallet.  That's the only way I verify seed phrases, no other method instills such confidence.  It can be a pain in the ass with a 24-word seed and picking one character at a time on a hardware wallet, but it's money we're talking about and the confidence is worth the effort.

If was trying an invalid seed phrase, the Ledger device would not accept it. With a 24 word phrase, there is only a 1 in 256 chance of swapping a word and the seed still being valid, so it is unlikely this is the case. It could be an entirely different seed altogether, though.

He reset the device during the update process, so any passphrases attached to secondary PINs will have been wiped. If the issue here is a passphrase, the only chance to recover the coins will be to remember the passphrase.

I just reset the cache and still the same results.  I'm still waiting on their reply.  Given the current situation I am expecting a bit of a wait.

I just checked the twitter and that's interesting.  I wonder if what they're describing applies to me, my accounts don't add up to anything but 0.  Also have my fingers crossed that whatever bugs they end up squashing might help anyone in my situation.

So the original derivation paths gave me matches to my empty receiving addresses.  When I set up a default wallet with p2sh segwit I left the derivation path as it was, e.g. m/49'/0'/0'.  I tried the same with native segwit with m/84'/0'/0' which also yielded a match to my empty receiving address (I have 2 empty accounts populated in my ledger live.  But in the list of address on both accounts there is no match to the addresses with my original coin transactions.

I am almost certain I have the right seeds and compared with the bips github just to be on the safe side.

I don't recall ever setting a passphrase to my hardware wallet.  Previously accessing my wallet required my pin only and I had no issues.  Also it doesn't prompt me to enter a passphrase, either when I activate it or when I do a soft reset (restore from previous).

That's actually a good point.  I'm not counting out the possibility of wrong seeds as many have suggested but had I gotten them wrong shouldn't I have gotten a "incorrect seed" prompt?  And having two or more recorded in the wrong order is even more of an impossibility to me.  Just my opinion. 

So I'm wrestling with the possibility that in the course of a year not only have I gotten a year older but what if I've also lost some brain cells in the process.  And if there is a possibility I created a passphrase that I don't recall I should consider it.

So if I understand correctly, having reset the device, the passphrase will still exist but the secondary PIN I associated with the passphrase is wiped?  Is that correct?  In other words if I go through the process "settings, security, passphrase, set up passphrase, attach to PIN", then I can set up a new secondary PIN and as long as I get the passphrase right during this process, the correct accounts should be able to be added?  I guess I'm also trying to figure out if this is how to validate a passphrase since I don't ever recall being prompted for one.

 :).  Quick update guys.  I just recovered the accounts!  So the culprit was the 25th word.  After all this time I had not remembered that I added a passphrase!  Many of you had suggested that the passphrase could be wrong which pushed me to look into the BIP39 passphrase set up process and my old records again (more thoroughy).  And I realized I set up a 25th word (passphrase)! 

Steps I took:
I reset my wallet and reinstalled ledger to be safe.
Did a restore and entered my seed words.  Set up ledger live linked to wallet.
Installed bitcoin app and added bitcoin accounts.

At this point everything was the same.  0 balance on both segwit and non.

I navigated to settings, security, passphrase, set up passphrase, attach to PIN.  This wasn't very obvious, to me at least, because if you had forgotten you had attached a passphrase to begin with this step feels like setting up a brand new passphrase.
I set up a secondary PIN and "set up" a passphrase using the passphrase I recovered in my records.

After process was complete, unplugged nano and at PIN prompt I entered my secondary pin attached to my passphrase I had just set up.
I went to add accounts and voila!  What a load off!
 

Thank you guys for taking your time to answer questions and discuss and not judge me too much, as I'm still learning this.  I learned a lot of things and every suggestion you guys made helped me find a solution. 

Some great news in some trying times! Really glad you managed to recover your coins.

Using a passphrase like this provides two benefits. If your 24 word seed back up is compromised, then as you just discovered, no one will be able to access your coins without also knowing or guessing your passphrase. You should keep your passphrase backed up separately to your seed phrase so if someone discovers one, they don't immediately have the other.

It also provides plausible deniability in the case of a physical attack against your person. You can unlock with the original PIN and show the attacker accounts which are either empty or hold a small amount of coins. The attacker has no way of knowing about additional coins which are hidden behind the secondary PIN.

And thank you for taking the time to come back and explain what the solution was and provide a good detailed explanation of how you solved your issue. Too many times, we either get a post that just says something like "Solved!" or "Fixed it!" and provides zero details which is completely useless to anyone searching through threads looking for similar issues... or the user simply disappears into the ether and no one knows what the end result was.

Kudos to you... glad you got it sorted.

Only in a situation where the attacker is a person who does not know the capabilities of the hardware wallet, and who is naive enough to believe that someone has a hardware wallet with a few dozen dollars on the accounts. When someone puts a gun to your head or a knife to your throat, you have to be a big fool not to answer every question. Also, such physical attacks are almost always targeted and well-prepared.

Passphrase is a very good extra protection for seed (in case of Trezor wallets highly recommended), but as we have seen in the OP case, it is not something to be taken lightly, because many will face the same problem in the future - they will have seed, but they will not be able to remember of passphrase.

Well, if this is a concern for you then set up two passphrases. Have a very small amount in the "base" addresses, and a little bit more in under the first passphrase - a small enough amount that it isn't a huge deal if you lose it, but a large enough amount to make it seem worthwhile to be using a hardware wallet. Store the main bulk of your funds under a second passphrase. That way you can given an attacker the base wallet and the first passphrase, and still have your second passphrase securing the bulk of your funds. Only if you have been careless enough to either broadcast the fact you have a second passphrase, or obviously linked all the wallets together using blockchain analytics, will an attacker even know a second passphrase exists.

Still worried an attacker might continue to push after you reveal the first passphrase? Then set up three, or four, or ten. Or store the majority of your funds on a completely unknown and hidden airgapped device or paper wallet. If an attack is targeted and well-prepared, as you say, then it makes no difference where you store your funds. If they know you own them, they can continue until you hand them over.

Am I the only one who thinks it's unwise to store the bulk of your wealth in a hardware wallet? 

Lets forget about the five-dollar-wrench attack vector for a minute, the the philosophy of a hardware wallet is contradictory to the principals of bitcoin's creation.  It's a third party device that we are trusting with our wealth.  Don't get me wrong, I use a hardware wallet and don't feel threatened, but lets look at it for what it really is.  Ledger's firmware isn't open source, and although highly unlikely, there could be a something malicious embedded in it's code.  The Trezor is open source, but that leaves it vulnerable if it's physically attacked.

If I were to make anthologies; I would categorize wallets in this fashion: A hot wallet I would consider as cash in my pocket, a hardware wallet I would consider as a checking account, and a cold wallet I would consider my savings or retirement accounts, and I store my wealth accordingly.

It's highly likely you're trusting someone somewhere along the chain... Unless you have created a handcrafted paperwallet, with a selfcoded app to convert your dicerolls/coin flips into a private key.

Otherwise, you're trusting your wallet software (yes, even 'open source' unless you have diligently checked every line of code in the wallet and every line of code in every library that the wallet uses)... you're trusting your OS... you're trusting your hardware... you're trusting your PRNG etc...

The "rabbit hole" for this goes deep.


Hardware wallets provide a nice blend of security and convenience. You get a nice mix of the "ease of use" and convenience of hot wallets and security of cold wallets with the keys being "shielded" from the world.

"Don't Trust, Verify" is a nice ideal... but in practical terms very difficult to get 100%.

If you are using an app, then it must be running on something, so you have to trust the hardware manufacturers and the delivery chain that delivered that hardware to you. As you say, you can expand on this endlessly. At some point you will always be trusting someone for something.

The same is true in your daily life. You trust complete strangers that you have never met to keep you alive at all times - every architect and builder to make sure the buildings you enter don't collapse on you, every city engineer to make sure the gas pipes don't explode under the street, everyone involved in designing and building the car/bus/train/tram/whatever you ride to work to make sure doesn't derail/malfunction/crash/explode, everyone involved in growing, harvesting, preparing, packaging, delivering, and serving your food to not make you ill, etc.

It's all about risk. Does using a hardware wallet bring with it a level of risk? Of course. Does using a cold wallet or paper wallet bring with it a level of risk? Also yes.

If you can set up a paper wallet completely offline, using human generated entropy by flipping a coin, converting your coin flips to a seed manually, leaving no traces, etc., etc., then sure, such a set up would be more secure than a hardware wallet. However, such a set up is also not an option for >99% of crypto users, and while it brings with it a lower risk of trusting third parties, it brings with it a much higher risk of messing up, doing something wrong, and either losing access to your coins or your coins being stolen.

For the vast majority of crypto users, a hardware wallet is the best balance between security and simplicity.