Bitcoin Forum

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Each day it becomes clearer what is happening to the Western economies.  Whether the bulk of the blame is on the Western World's high debts (probably) or China re foisting COVID-19 upon the world (likely) is not that important for the purposes of what we need to start doing NOW.  It looks like we are sliding into an Economic Depression.  And we are about to enter a Whole New World with its own "New Normal".  I believe it is clear that some fundamental restructuring of our (American and European) economies is an urgent matter.  But, this will be very expensive and take a long time to implement, and there will be much resistance to these policies.

It has now become clear that the Globalist Model has major defects.  There is some good in Globalism, but we now see that there is bad as well.  We need to be thinking about how to make our country/countries stronger and less reliant on dictatorships like Communist China (and to a degree authoritarian Russia).  The below seem to be fundamental things we need to begin ASAP:

Bring Back Certain Manufacturing

• We need to be manufacturing much more of our pharmaceuticals (including the vital precursor chemicals) here.  In US plants (Europe as well).  It is awful that we have to put up with Chicom threats to cutting us off our pharma.  I understand that many pharma companies strongly resist this (higher costs, they are not ready, etc.).  Well TS.  We should have started this process a long time ago.
• Similarly we need to start mining Rare Earth metals here in North America (Europe has some deposits as well).  These are vital to new technologies and for alternative energy (inc. electric cars).  We have to break down the barriers to opening rare earth mines, and to build the processing plants to turn the minerals into useful products (magnets, etc.).
• And we need to produce more electronic components here in North America and Europe.  Trump has already suggested to Tim Cook that Apple building more plants here in the USA would be a good idea.  We are very dependent on China in components as well.

Yes, I understand that doing the above would drive costs of pharma and other products way up.  OK, but look at what COVID-19 has done to us re driving up costs!  The above suggestions would also create a lot of good jobs, many of them just the sort of STEM jobs that we apparently really need in addition to safeguarding our security.

Rebuilding vital parts of our industrial base seems very important.  And time's a-wasting.  Let's get this started!

Build Infrastructure

For years (decades) we have been hearing all about the decline of our basic infrastructure.  Yes, it's a real problem (set of large problems), I have traveled enough to see how some of our infrastructure is in bad shape compared to what I see from time-to-time overseas.  Infrastructure is expensive!  Yes, I understand, also infrastructure projects are often huge magnets for fraud, cost overruns, poor workmanship, etc.

Nonetheless, properly functioning countries need to have properly functioning infrastructure.  I list out some (I make no prettense that the below is all-inclusive), but these DO seem to be necessary to get done.  And get started ASAP.

• Strengthen the electrical grid.  Our rickety grid is unacceptable.  It is also quite vulnerable to a variety of attacks by hostile enemies...
• Rebuild our railroads, ports and highways.  Probably our airports as well, although air travel may be declining for the next couple of years...
• Water & sewage systems.
• Cybersecurity, for obvious reasons.
• Energy: fossil fuels (how about using more natural gas?), alternative energies, conservation, etc.
• A properly functioning public health system, perhaps redoing the CDC and working with Europe to reform the WHO.

There are other items I'm sure I have missed.

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I assure you that I am not naive as to the very high costs of doing the above.  And the risks of massive waste.  But, these are important things that we must do, both for national security and for strengthening our economies -- making us more resistant and resilient to further DISASTERS that likely await us in the coming years.  They would create good jobs, and leave us better prepared for the future.


"The key is not predicting the future, but to be prepared for it"

-- Pericles (500 BC)

Too late. The world is addicted to cheap man-power and low interest rates.

It will be very hard to reverse the momentum. It could be done but it will be painful too. By painful, I don't mean what we saw last month. That was nothing.

Alas, I agree.  It would be extremely expensive to undertake all of what I sketch out above.  But, probably more expensive to NOT undertake them in the long-run.

But, upon considering the last month or two, it is clear that we are in a new era that is NOT compatible with extreme Globalism (which cheap manpower is a major component of) if we value stability and security.  And stability and security, IMO, are more important than the additional costs that will arrive...  

Energy is a huge problem.  Low pharma manufacturing capacity is a huge problem.  Dependence on China for rare earth metals is a huge problem.  Many, many problems, that WILL cost huge amounts of money to resolve them.


EDIT: You raise the topic of low interest rates.  There is a case to be made for raising interest rates, that would encourage SAVINGS (important) and discourage frivolous spending and debt.

I think there will be many calls for this. They will eventually fade away. What will happen is some concerted stockpiling. And then that'll get sold off or forgotten about. That's how humans roll. We carry on improvising until it's too late. I can't see that changing.

I guess the real test is dealing with the economic wreckage. No one knows how bad that will be or what the effects will be. Perhaps it will inspire some sort of sea change. I ain't holding my breath.

We're just the victim of a capitalist system and globalization and to be honest, I don't think it will change anytime soon because it's all so ingrained in the world.

Certainly, we will see some industries going back to producing locally to be less dependant but that will remain a minority and it won't make much difference.

It's at the level of mentalities that we have to change and our perception of money. Capitalism was good for a growth economy but seeing how they turned it...

Everything depends how long the crisis will last but I don't expect that something will change in dramatic way. People have very short memory and as soon as everything gets back to normal, people will forget everything they cry out now.
Economy will suffer the worst and that will leave deep trace but again some will use this situation for their own benefit, both countries and individuals.

Indeed the majority of people, forget fast but with this situation, we can't define normal like it was before. So after this global lockdown, normal will have a new meaning.
As for the economy, I can't say much for now. Both US and EU announce "supporting measures" with trillions...

What was normal though?

It wasn't going well before covid19 if that's what you mean. "Normal" was already going for a disaster. Covid19 only made us reach our target faster: Total shit.

Before covid nothing was "normal". There were still negative interest rates, excessive money printing, asset bubbles etc etc. If it wasn't covid, we were going to experience this sooner or later. I think we should have gone through this in 2001 tbh. Not even 2008.

We bought a 20-year extension from the FED and time is up.

The problem with the Westerners in general is that most of them do not want to get their hands dirty on laboring, that's why you have tons of 9-5, rank-and-file jobs in the West compared to anywhere else in the world. Also, capitalists never really think of things like large-scale economic implications of their ventures by outsourcing most of the jobs and investing on infrastructure wherever is cheaper. The result? China gained power plants and massive production facilities with an arsenal of workers willing to get underpaid as long as they have the $$$ to take home at the end of the day. The greed of capitalists on profits allowed China to gain the manufacturing edge, and Europe/NA plants are lagging behind throughput and output since they invested more on the Eastern front.

As for the pharmaceutical industry, believe it or not the Westerners have the competitive edge and tech against China. Most big pharma in the US alone have sophisticated laboratories enough to produce vaccines and drugs at a large-scale compared to the capabilities of Japan, SoKor, and China combined. Then again, it is entirely dependent on which superbug or virus arises, and SARS-CoV-2 is made in China that's why the Chinese made studies first than any other countries in the world.

For NA and EU to bounce back in the scene, massive loss on profits and economy would have to happen. Pulling out integral assets on the eastern front would certainly hurt the bank and may result to yet another recession along the way. Unfortunately, the manufacturing scene would be Sino-centric for a while before level-headed capitalists actually think that their own plants are lagging behind their overseas investments, and that it is only a matter of time before those same investments ruin what they started.

The problem of what you are talking about is cost. I am not only talking about the cost of building new factories, workers, electricity, raw materials, suppliers... and the corruption in each step. I am talking about the price of the final product mainly which is double or triple of the Chinese one.
A normal citizen is looking for gloves for example, he will not buy a pair of French gloves for $3 but instead he will buy 3 Chinese one for the same price. What's the difference? That's the real problem here. The same view will change when talking about cars for example, people will not buy a Chinese car with $10k but will buy a German or US one with +$20k.
Medical field is neglected by govs, big companies are profiting from it like hell, look to the price of insulin in USA, it is ridiculous, it is 50x higher than third world countries! Better to not mention the cost of active principle of medication which most countries import it from China and India.
What i am trying to say is not just having infrastructure covering all fields but also managing affordable and competitive prices. And until now, China is leading by far most of the countries.

But some will be thinking along the lines of - can we afford not to?

We are indeed awash with affordable tat but look at the social effects the current system has created - job insecurity, populist knobhounds, intergenerational resentment, rising living costs and stagnating wages.

Of course rejecting China may not solve any of that but some will feel it's worth experimenting with. I guess the real disruptor is AI and automation and that's the greatest unknown for all of us in the future.

Imagine the effects of genuine hostility between the West and elsewhere beyond the sniping we have today. It could be crippled in a couple of hours. At the same time it's possibly the most powerful form of keeping the peace between major powers we've ever known. No one can afford world war to happen any more. That may mean more proxy wars of course.

I second some of the proposals. A more "region-focused" economy will be more resilient than our current extreme-globalized one.

As @dothebeats and @snipie have already written the problem is that the current situation evolved due to labor costs which were too high in the "Western" countries for most "mass manufacturing" industries. However, this can change with automatization technology. A year ago approximately I read about a return of textile/clothing industry to Europe due to the development of highly automatized machines which reduced the need for cheap workers.

Can Bitcoin help with that? At a first glance, Bitcoin is a global currency and would also favour a "global labor market". But if it becomes a mainstream currency it could have an effect which may help: it may slowly level out differences in labor costs. At least office jobs are in theory doable from every location on the world with Internet, and this would mean that if all labor was priced in a global currency like BTC, it could lead to increasing worldwide competition between workers, which in the long rund would thus lead to a reduction of national/regional differences in hourly wages.

This would mean it could get increasingly difficult for companies to save costs "escaping" countries or regions with high labor cost, and it would give them again incentives to manufacture locally again (with improved technology).

Very unlikely to happen. Right now, the only concern that every single country has is to get rid of Covid-19 once and for all. And I don't see that happening, there are over a million cases as we speak, and the numbers don't seem to be going down. China, who thought that they stabilized the rise of Covid-19 cases, had 3000 new cases yesterday. And this won't end until there is a goddamn cure.
 
What you're suggesting is very unwise to do in midst of a pandemic. Sure, instead of relying on China, we get to start relying on ourselves, but at what cost? Any country tries to bring this proposal to the public, its gonna cause a mayhem. Maybe things could change after the pandemic is over, but until then bringing new people in to launch factories, dig up raw material is only going to make the Covid-19 pandemic worse.

As for the cost, trillions of dollars are being spent on this pandemic, its going to be a bloodbath coming out of this, every single country will have to basically do a fresh start, there is going to alot of layoffs, companies are going to vanish overnight, things are going to be more horrible, we just can't see it yet. 

I didn't want to develop this but job insecurity for example is the fault/ due to the wild strict version of capitalism adopted by the USA. +6 millions jobless? That's crazy, i doubt that Europe for example reached that number. I am neither supporting socialism or communism but a soft version of capitalism may be the best choice.
Personally I believe that each country has to secure its basics infrastructure which is essentially health and food, at whatever cost. The difference between the price of surgical mask made in USA vs China for example should be covered by the govs or there is another option, whenever locally made drug or medical equipment is available then insurance will cover it while it will not cover imported ones.
Back to reality, govs covering something is communism-like and no one likes it, insurance covering expensive things is a pure delusion  :-\
Everyone is claiming to support his country products while buying cheaper ones from foreign countries. Globalisation. Last thing I read on social media is an American buying a phone case from China. Coronavirus they said? Nothing will change...

They should increase their focus more on building a vaccine or something to make the pandemic go away a little faster, second is that they should build a system that helps in preventingthe further spread and contractiong of the virus, and lastly, I think that the government should strategize on how will they create a fund stimulation that will benefit especially the poor.

The vaccine is on the way to finish, and many countries are trying to find the vaccine, but the process will not happen fast. There are many things to be tested before the vaccine can be given to the patient, and I think that will need some months before they can get it. Healing the people who infected and searching the other infected people and isolate is an important thing right now before the virus spreads to more people. So after the government knows who is the infected people, and they can quarantine that person to get cured, the government will think about the other way.

Trump has already called for a $2 trillion spending bill for infrastructure. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-31/trump-calls-for-2-trillion-infrastructure-bill-to-create-jobs

It's not as crazy as it sounds given the unprecedented unemployment numbers. Infrastructure spending is a band-aid for that since it creates lots of temporary jobs.

I'm less convinced about the manufacturing angle, although China's widespread defective medical products during this crisis was notable and could affect future demand for some Chinese-made products.

Experts say that a fully effective vaccine is not possible for at least 1-1.5 years. In this case, a drug that fights the disease should be found more urgently than disease prevention. But more importantly, in this process, studies should be done globally for production models that will sustain the world economy. I think our primary need is basic food and health supplies. First of all, if we can act together in this area, then we will have no problem with hunger and insufficient health services.

If we can make progress on issues such as joint laboratory studies, sharing information, joint steps can be taken for both treatments and needs. In this, people who are competent in health of each country can be brought together. Since the source of this problem is now the common problem of the whole world, it is obvious that more people will be hurt unless they act together.

The capitalism we have is a long, long way from what its proponents will admit to it being in public. It has a huge socialist streak however that socialism is restricted entirely to corporate interests who get bailed out, indulged and protected while the real people are left to rot.

Look at defence procurement. They ration the work they give out between companies very carefully to make sure they all get a piece of the pie. It's sensible, you can't let entire arms of industry die, but it's no different from a politburo handing out stuff to different tractor factories no matter how dire they are.

If any politician proposed the measures they give their masters to the average person in the street they'd be immediately hounded out for being a flat out commie.

Agreed with pugman.

I dont think it will be over so easily even after the cure gets found. We are only at the beginning of what's about to come. You see the unemployment rates in the US is still soaring. These people won't find new jobs suddenly.

 The soaring U.S. unemployment rate could approach Great Depression-era levels (https://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/guid/CE034E96-75B5-11EA-8BD5-378253C2B750)


March was only the beginning.

Maybe!

Perhaps on the contrary, April may be the beginning of the recovery period. Nobody believed that things would grow that big in January. Until the middle of March, the WHO did not take the situation seriously until the last stage. A treatment method to be found can start putting things back on track. Nobody can say that the effects of this bad times will not last for a while, but recovery will begin gradually.

Stop also implementing the economy at war and use war to turn the wheels of the economy because the American arms industry will continue to produce and contribute significant figures to American GDP.

American First, Make American great again is a good ambition, but regardless of who is responsible for this virus whether China or Europe, in the name of humanity, each country helps each other in the hope of mutual symbiosis in overcoming the corona pandemic.



Agree, the effect of the great depression, the subprime mortgage crisis is clear evidence that the greed of capitalism must be borne by the American people and the whole world, while the frontman of capitalism remains rich. This is also evidence that laissez-faire has failed to sustain the economy.

What America needs to do from now on is to learn from history so as not to repeat the same mistakes in the future. As a barometer of the world economy indirectly through the US dollar has transferred the problem to all countries in the world. The world bears the economic problems of the United States.


Small changes have a big impact, I don't know how the policies of small and medium businesses in America are just that, the community there can start the consolidation of the bottom of the pyramid so that money rotates and benefits the economy of the lower classes and working class.


The existence of debt and interest practices encourage a person's courage to speculate. Money should only function as a means of payment so that money continues to spin and provide benefits to many people not concentrated in the hands of a handful of people who ultimately cause the economy to stall due to speculators. The action of speculation George Soros had brought an economic crisis in Southeast Asia in 1998, an example of the greed of the capitalist that brought suffering to millions of people.

Recovery? You really believe that? Even the virus completely disappears tomorrow, its effects won't disappear. Millions of people have already lost their jobs. Millions. That's when the death count is below 100k (65k right now) and it is increasing.

The world will never be the same after this. Many companies will be bankrupt. (Especially airlines) Globalization has failed.

Producing our own pharmaceuticals,electronics and mining rare metals on own territory sounds good in theory,but in reality it will be way more expensive and probably not so efficient.
In this "NEW WORLD",where we produce everything in our countries,the costs of production will go up,so everything will be more expensive,while the salaries might stay the same(or they might go down).
Be ready for increasing levels of poverty.This might be the "new normal" for the western world.
Anyway,I don't think that the western countries will give up on globalization and close their borders forever.

Even if Trump has called for this 2 Trillion, its the expenditure cost to be used up until 2025, and right now nothing is going to start, cause there are more things required than just infrastructure. I am taking about basic essential needs, if every country goes for lockdowns on a longer period, we'll soon be out of food, and other resources at hand.

And besides, no one even knows when this whole infrastructure thing will even start, so I wouldn't keep my hopes up only based on this.
While, its a given that China is known for producing shit tier products, its still cheap, and that same reason is why every single country depends on them. If cost wasn't a factor, China would be long gone, same reason why most people still eat non-organic food.

Its going to take a lot, and expenses of trillions of dollars if any other country wants to emerge on top against Chinese markets. And right now, every country is suffering, while China is picking up bones and leftovers, and by the time this is over, and other countries reach a position to recover, China will be on top whether we like it or not.

The peak of the virus is yet to come and I think on this second quarter we will see a more case of the Covid19. We can only rise up again after the virus and of course if there’s a cure already but for now, many people are losing their job and many businesses are suffering big, even big companies are now struggling especially the airlines company.

1945-1973 Capitalism. It will happen. Expect much more expensive state and much higher taxes. Question is what will tax payers do. We are not in 1973 anymore.

Yeah well, probably not going to happen any time soon.

Seems like most of the economy now is investing, banks and top 100 companies.

So far, world trade is still dominated by China. And the beginning as an imitating country becomes a country that is reliable in modifying a product so that it has added value. So that China is known as the World manufacturing center.

The competitive price factor is indeed a determining factor in the behavior of Chinese goods in the international market. Abundant resources, cheap labor, Chinese government support for foreign investment and also the ease of project funding are factors that support Chinese products having competitive prices.

One of the Chinese government's supports for the export of Chinese products is to deliberately devaluate or decrease the value of its currency. Yuan supplied, reproduced, washed into the market. The supply is propagated in the market through its large foreign exchange reserves. China does not want to be like the US whose currency is too strong, so that export competitiveness decreases because the price of goods is too expensive.

Well, tax payers and what they want to do depends on how they think their taxes are used and how well it is spend back to them. Look at USA state Vermont and Colarado for example, they do spend a decent amount of tax just like any other state but the amount of tax evasion is a lot less there, why? Because they believe their tax actually goes back to them, look at places that are in more south, like Texas or Kansas and what not, there are more people who are evading taxes there.

However the real trouble is the huge companies, companies like facebook who try to move to overseas to Ireland and what not to pay less taxes while making their profits in USA, look at the cruise ships right now, they literally moved their headquarters to Bahamas and so forth to avoid paying taxes but now asking for more money. So basically tax payers would pay their taxes, as long as they see others pay as well and it is used back to them.

Never too late, USA, Europe and other nations of the world over dependent on the Chinese market is a dangerous one. People must be taught to lead a moderate life and the society must adjust to suit that. Companies that are domiciled i China should be returned back and the government and private companies should review labor terms, and reduce tax paid by these companies to ensure they remain i their indigenous countries otherwise we may soon be at the mercy of China as it's headed. 99% of my gadget are made in China.

I'm not certain if north america contains rare earth metal deposits. It might interest people to know afghanistan was said to have trillions of dollars worth of natural deposits. Which could be one reason why russia and later the united states tried so hard to occupy that country.


Its not necessarily manufacturing itself which is expensive in the united states.

It may be more accurate to say america has the highest corporate taxes in the world coupled with a higher average cost of living. Both of which contribute to higher cost of labor. Making manufacturing prohibitive. Corporate tax cuts and reduced average cost of living both carry the potential to reduce cost of manufacturing which would allow america to be more competitive as a manufacturing base.

The issue could be easy to solve, if only we can accurately define the problem.


The main issue with infrastructure. The government collects taxes specifically to maintain infrastructure. They collect road taxes, gas taxes, telecom taxes. And many other forms of infrastructure related taxation. Revenue which in theory is supposed to be spent on upgrading and maintaining roads, gas/petroleum infrastructure, internet and telecom infrastructure. Those infrastructure taxes are always diverted to other pet programs. This has been the standard trend for decades upon decades which is the reason why infrastructure is neglected and poorly maintained.


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https://i.imgur.com/4eqYBtD.png

The war on Afghanistan was primarily about oil. Afghanistan is crucial to a central Asian pipeline system that bypasses Iran and Russia, which would bring cheap petroleum to the US and UK. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1626889.stm


https://www.npr.org/2017/08/07/541797699/fact-check-does-the-u-s-have-the-highest-corporate-tax-rate-in-the-world

If corporate tax rates are cut, how do you expect to replace that tax base? By cutting social entitlements?

I'm expecting the opposite. This pandemic is showcasing the frailty of the US health care system, which is mostly employer based. As unemployment becomes rampant, the number of uninsured is soaring. Meanwhile, insurance companies are planning on jacking up rates by up to 40%.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/11/health/nurse-last-words-coronavirus-patient-trnd/index.html

This situation is coming to a head. This may be the tipping point where the US finally moves towards universal healthcare.

As is happening in Indonesia today, many anti-mainstream economic observers explain that it is better for the rupiah to weaken significantly against the dollar by design than the rupiah to weaken against the dollar by accident. So it's different to see an economic failure by design or by accident.

For example, conducted by China, the weakening of the Yuan from a kind of ordinary people is seen as a weak economy even though it is China's strategy to keep its trade balance surplus even though the US is implementing a currency warfare.

Trump's economic adviser Larry Kudlow is bullish about on-shoring of American businesses. He's even suggesting the US government should "pay the moving costs" for companies who want out of China:


I have no idea how workable that is from a policy standpoint, but if nothing else I can agree with this:


https://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2020/04/10/kudlow-pay-the-moving-costs-of-american-companies-leaving-china/#111d5c0113c6

One way or another, the entire current situation in the world depends primarily on the rate of spread of coronavirus.  On the one hand, in order to preserve the life and health of people, quarantine is needed, and on the other hand, this quarantine negatively affects business.  Some politicians have already stated that there are two options for overcoming this situation.  The first is to wait until the vaccine for coronavirus is created, but for this you need to wait at least six months.  And another option is to give people the opportunity to get sick with a coronavirus, they make the body itself struggle with this problem, and they will have to sacrifice many lives, and at the same time, the business will be able to work more or less somehow.  I’m just in shock and I don’t even know how to react to such statements of politicians.

Returning some production to the United States from other countries is quite expensive. All of them were handed down due to rather high salaries and other financial indicators. Of course, they may return, but then they will need to sell drugs more expensively, and this will reduce demand. The only option is assistance from the government, which compensates for part of the costs.

The price of every item should be reduced by not returning to any country's production N America and Europe got to start trading immediately. at present, things are decreasing consistently with things in the country People are unable to try any work. within the case of the trade agreement between America and Europe if they assist the helpless people of each country together then ordinary people can live normal lives.

I think not, it is not that easy to forget what this pandemic brought to us because there are many people who are dying and many people who are suffering. Some people aren't that stable enough to sustain the lives and food of their family. Some people have no work and no pay, they are just relying on the government just to survive this quarantine.

We have different classes of lives, not all of us can afford a lot of supply and foods for a month, some are homeless and have nothing but clothes. We will never forget how disastrous this Covid-19 pandemic to all things here in the world. Economy crashes and the government is trying its best to manipulate and manage it properly.


How can be an economy crash will be use as their own benefit? Governments are suffering most especially those who are countries that isn't completely developed. Those countries who are over-populated besides China, like India, they are the second largest population and they are having a hard time controlling their people.

The cheap labor comes from the third world countries though. Thats why the first world countries make sure to keep them in third world and not allow them to develop further and compete with them. It is a part of the world politics and policies. Though currently the divide is less known because everyone is cooperating if needed.

Thats called overthinking. People will suffer from this condition no matter a cure if found or not. It is currently a very grim situation.

Governments are already doing what they can. People have to make comments sitting from home though without going to the real scenario, which is not called for.

I'm not much for conspiracy theorists but speaking at least in my part of the world, my state's actually used pretty much all of the past crises to their own benefit. Sure, the 1997 Asian crisis was bad, it resulted in huge bailouts (at expense of taxpayer) and joblessness, but the government stepped right back in to steady the ship for a lot of people, got really popular and stayed in power for a really long time past expiry date. It even used the crisis to deflect politics going on at the time (student riots etc).

Same thing 20 years later now. We have a lot of deep issues but the depression, impending joblessness and covid-19? States distributing stimulus cash. Miserable sum but people are people and they will remember the cash for next election.

Building infrastructure is the most used solution in order to kick off the economies again.
However, this would happen by printing more money in order to drop it to the economies. It is very risky to do so as it will create inflationary trends which would be damaging to the economy instead of helping it.

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I am starting to see China getting more criticism re exporting Beer Virus.  I saw a headline today (did not read the piece though) that the Foreign Minister of the British government has become hostile to China, and perhaps they will act.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/boris-johnsons-stand-backs-trump-china-well-have-ask-some-hard-questions


China has just announced export blocks of medical PPE  just today: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/logjams-new-china-export-restrictions-freeze-medical-goods-destined-us  CHICOMS are not our friends.


I reiterate that to bring back pharma, rare earth mining & processing and electronic components would indeed be hugely expensive.  I mentioned that at the beginning of this thread.


Finally Trump may announce a big US infrastructure program at 6:00 PM EDT: https://www.zerohedge.com/health/trump-hold-major-news-conference-6pm-will-announce-reopening-guidelines-2-trillion-stimulus


[ZeroHedge is on fire today]

This is all expected behavior. Economic crises breed populism and political scapegoating: (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/04/coronavirus-class-war-just-beginning/609919/)


In the west, this crisis has only exposed (not created) the condition of an eroding middle class and increasingly destitute working class. Wages have barely risen in decades while corporate profits have endlessly risen.

The question now is, will the working class now turn their ire towards their corporate overlords? Or will they let politicians channel their anger and desperation into racism and political scapegoating, and maybe even a military war against China?

What we need is not the infrastructure buildings but more on producing pharmaceutical needs and equipments. I think we have enough infrastructures for electricity and etc.

At present pharmaceuticals are needed to guard the health of the people This disease has made us all understand how important it's to other things Many countries are going to be ready to control the disease sooner if we make different health care tools.

I don't think that this month is the recovering period because there are still a lot of countries where the number of cases due to Covid-19 is still increasing over time. The spread will be not that easy to stop as people are really transmitting the virus from one person to another gradually.

We have no idea when this pandemic will end, we have no idea what to do with next months. Hoping that our scientist quickly develop a vaccine or cure as soon as possible so that the recovery period will happen. In China we can't say if they have already the vaccine because they cases there become stable but we have no proof yet.


This pandemic is really a misfortune for us, it affects a lot of sector such as agricultural, economy, business and etc. The government should really support those families who have nothing to support its members, people who are not that wealthy enough to sustain lives of their loved ones.

Government should have make a precise and proper planning and allocate some funds for its people to survive this quarantine. Many lives are taken by this virus because of its uncontrollable life-threatening effect, most especially to our elder people. Hoping that the people should follow what the government told them, always stay at home and never go out without errands.


Each country should focus first on how they will fight this virus before focusing on their economy, they should take care first the health of the people and never waste time to those nonsense things like military power. They should use all their funds for the sake of people, to support their country so that somehow they can feel the recovery and complacent to this pandemic.

Take care of people is the keyword. Not only physically but also mentally. Each country needs to campaign for covid-19 anti-propaganda so that the mentality of its people is also healthy. WHO's global health emergency with lockdown solutions creates a mechanism of economic warfare sustained by fear and intimidation, with devastating consequences.

Second is to take care of people's economy, not only the government but each individual is responsible for the people around them who are struggling. Top managers & CEOs are awaited by their brilliant thinking in driving the economy when a pandemic occurs. Make real innovations in the name of humanity. Is not management already embedded in your blood. Get out of your comfort zone and challenge yourself.

Learn from China in handling the second wave of covid-19. China combines management science, technology, leadership to prevent the massive spread of corona back in China without turning off its economy. China now really keeps a close eye on anyone who comes from abroad, even though it's its own citizens. Corona suspects and corona sufferers are also accepted in China both Chinese citizens and other citizens provided they are willing and must follow strict quarantine procedures in force. In the end, the transportation industry & hotel industry can start running again.

I just read a news saying that China does not allow American companies in China to make medical devices out of China. It is clear that China wants to make it difficult for the United States and European countries to lack medical protection for doctors who are treating patients. Obviously, the world sees the ugly face of China. The US is investigating whether this virus COVID-19 comes from a Chinese laboratory. If that is the case, then China must pay billions of dollars in damages to countries around the world. The best solution is that the US and European countries should withdraw their factories to other countries that have cheap and friendly labor costs, such as Vietnam, Taiwan, India ...

Considering the globalisation and capitalism i simply don't understand how something so indispensable like food and the labor involved in it is paid first then a worker in Fintech company. I believe we should review our values and understand that we are not the center of the universe. Perhaps in the new economy we will value more the nature and the resources around us. This is what Europe and N America should do.

I doubt that China does it so that everyone would have to buy from china or even they are probably not doing it so that Americans and Europeans can't protect themselves or anything like that. I hate Chinese dictatorial government that basically kills anyone who opposes them and anyone and their whole family as well, however if you think with a bit of logic you will realize that China has all those places for themselves first, if you need masks would you allow your own manufacturing factories to build some for Europeans or would you force those places to make it for you?

China probably needs like 100 million masks per day at least, you can't use the same mask all day as well if you are a doctor so probably even more, which means they need ALL the mask factories they can get their hands on.

Most of people believes that China created the virus to gain some of their interest politically and economically but if that's the case then they should have not make their own country as the epicenter, if their target is America or Europe they could have just easily transported it carried by stealth aircraft and drop it somewhere. Even without pandemic, China is the main producer of all, don't you ever wonder they have the biggest economic step from the previous years?

Seems like you're angry about anything that involves China huh, but I think you are just so bored that thinks of this way. Come on.

China won't need it if they don't let people go outside, or just of most of them. 100 million mask per day would costs too much for the government to manufacture, that's quite impossible to do at all, aside having total lock down would really help deescalate the situation, so why not use the solution that requires not that much money?

Simply, Chinese is an economic scoundrel, while America is a thug bastard. Facing the world with colonialism. Starting from colonialism 1.0 to colonialism 5.0. We know in the world there are two economic models, on the left side there is socialism and on the right side there is capitalism.

Countries that dominate the world continue to compete for the survival of their respective nations. To survive, they annex other countries and prevent all means, no guilt, no hard feelings. But strangely, many governments in the world see the colonial state with open arms. China, through the OBOR project, turned nearly 70 countries into extended quasi-territory, with financial debt traps. China is the winner in the dominance of the financial world.

America lost some of its domination compilation coz being challenged by China. This finally pushed America to strengthen its MILITARY DOMINATION. America chose to use thuggery to mess up the world, including its biological warfare so that the world is unclear, chaotic, and needs to control the world called America.

For me, I would say that the op has a really good idea here. The world seems to be relying on China for almost everything.
A lot of things I buy these are usually made in China, like seriously, it should be like that. We shouldn’t be relying on just one country for everything we want to do, we ourselves should also producing most of these things we need, especially in the area of pharmaceuticals.

It is going to be painful but we have to do it. Ever since this Coronavirus started spreading, China has been dominating in sales of all things health related. If other countries were producing these things by themselves, they wouldn’t have to rely on China to do it for them.

...

China continues its lies, still spreading its filthy propaganda blaming the USA.  

Yet who was it shutting down Wuhan Airport to Chinese domestic flights while allowing flights to/from other countries?

Who does not let anyone into Wuhan's virology lab to look around?  The CCP could allow Western scientists in while being escorted if they are paranoid about secrets (and just what would those secrets be?).

*   *   *

Bring back pharma and precursor production to the USA (and Europe!), looks like medical equipment (PPE for medical people) from China is garbage as well

Start producing rare-earths here as well as Europe (yes, they have some in Sweden and Estonia, also India, Brazil, Canada and Australia)

Bring back production of electronic components (hearing me Apple?)

Again, I understand all of the above would be very costly, but XiFlu has costs us some $6 trillion and counting..........


Would be delighted to hear about other industries that would be important to bring back as well.

Developed countries compromised their quality by manufacturing and exporting from China, now they are spending more money than the actual expense for the quality product.

But now countries seems work up.Companies are preparing to move their manufacturing plant to other part of Asia where cost of the product is still effective hope China will learn their lesson from this covid spread.

Seriously you say the truth, but I won't really blame most companies that want to manufacture all their products in China lol.
It is not that other countries can't manufacture all those things by themselves, but the thing is that there are lots of low-wage workers and companies are manufacturing there to be able to get production on a low cost. But, I believe that the coronavirus outbreak has taught us all a good lesson that we shouldn't always be relying on one country for everything, we should try as much as possible to do things by ourselves.

The health sector is very important for the government to put their focus on. If they don't focus on the health sector and keep developing it as much as possible, in a situation like this it would be a difficult case to handle, though I don't hope for such a thing to repeat itself.

Manufacturing in China is not cheap. China have expensive workforce. And with constant GDP growth it is getting more and more expensive.  Cheap workforce is in Southeast Asia and in Africa. Also in parts of South America.

I believe Americans and Europeans will do it soon if Covid 19 is well controlled. They have even stepped up further lowering interest rates so that businesses have money to maintain and do not need to pay taxes on some industries badly affected by the disease. Don't worry too much about economic policies, they're good enough to recognize and know what they should do next. The important thing now is to be aware of the people. they should know to isolate themselves at home and that will help the economy in the future a lot.

I agree this is almost impossible. Unless a really serious cataclysm or a third world war will overtake us.
I hope that neither one nor the other will happen and we will be able to adequately get out of the current situation by improving our standard of living.

I don’t think that building infrastructures is appropriate now because there are shortage in budgets so the more buildings the more expenses and this cannot be afford by the dropping economy
Printing money is never a good action because this will only bring down more the economy and that is what happening in other falling countries now.
At least you have already answer your own advice mate.

Yes, wish the best for our world. After witnessing the situation of more than tens of millions of people in America who were unemployed and had to beg for food to survive, I felt so sorry for them. But this is just an "economic" pandemic. This virus will soon be under control and our assets will still be there. We just owe it and when we get the job back, we'll be able to pay it back quickly.

Amazing Article , I think you should actually try and get your government listen to these facts. 
I do think at this time of quarantine small farmers and other small business owners are getting affected a lot , therefore soon it would be a very bad situation for them , I think government should start giving them incentives or leave the middle man and transfer the vegetables and fruits from them to the people in need .
One needs to make a local website and the local authority should actually monitor it and people could actually exchange services there since the import and export is now banned .
The small businesses should actually gain a lot of support so that the local ecosystem could flourish on its own.

All your points and all your "we must" rest on one thing - everyone wants to be programmers/managers/entrepreneurs/etc and no one wants to be a plumber/warehouse worker/conveyor worker/[any other "low-skilled" profession]. People do not want to get their hands dirty and are used to all the "non-prestigious" work being done for them by others. "Higher education is necessary for everyone!" they were talking, and they were running up student loans. "You should create your own business, not working for your Uncle Sam," they said and they after they increased loans rate too.
A person SHOULD be able to get his hands dirty and not consider that he is losing face. If people will think that working as a gardener/garbage man/shop assistant is for losers we will never get economy back

People should be prepared for this. Everything in the world is cyclical. From cycles of economic and social recovery, to collapse and disasters. Everything has different levels and gradations.
But over the course of life, each person faces global ups and downs, and he must prepare for this. After all, this is inevitable and can happen at any time.