Bitcoin Forum

I was shocked for reading a market breaking new as strange as this.

I paused and reflected again and again by applying this condition to other market assets.

I read from Blomberg that the price of crude oil has declined into a negative  of $-37.63/barrel.

What will happen to countries that depend solely on crude oil revenue?

What will happen to the investors in crude oil?

A very serious reflection is that fact that, is it possible for bitcoin value to also drop into the negative?

What if the following happen:
1. A ban in the demand for bitcoin and a ban in the use of bitcoin.
2. Backing off of bitcoin miners from the business of mining?

Could these causes bring the value of bitcoin to something similar to the historic oil Price drop of $-37.63?

What do you have to say about this?

bitcoin's supply is perfectly inelastic. It's not possible for it to be negative.

And oil itself isn't negative, thats just a futures contract. you have to take delivery of that -$37 oil. 1000 barrels. They are basically paying you come get it.

As storage capacity fills up, the Oil producers are still gonna keep pumping. They need someone to deploy tankers and make arrangement to store it so they can keep pumping more. Shutting down the supplies is a costly affair as they have to pay off employees and the loans taken for setting up the infrastructure. They are offering to pay so they don't have to go into the shutdown spiral.

Bitcoin has no delivery costs. You don't have to spend anything to remember 12 word passphrase or store it somewhere safe. Miners will simply shutdown if it ever becomes "unsafe" to run miners and produce bitcoin. What they will never do is to pay someone to take it off from their addresses.

Only in bitcoin discussion can we attempt comparing apples and generators?

No! It had reached to negative for a short moment and then again gone up. Currently the BRENT CRUDE is trading somewhere near to $16/barrel. However, this is also not a sustainable price so millions of jobs will be lost for this as OPEC countries will have to stop oil product to balance with demand, which has reached a record low due to the current situation.

But we will also have to understand that the situation is not permanent. As soon as the world comes out of the lockdown and the industries start their production - the demand for oil will come back to normal. Once demand increases, the price will increase as well.  


No for bitcoin! Bitcoin is not a traditional market asset. It's a good amount of production cost as well. In view of this, I don't see bitcoin going to negative value ever. A blanket ban can't be achieved on an asset like bitcoin, it has its own technical complexities!

The 2nd one is more serious and can't be entirely impossible! However, there's a chain reaction we need to understand. If we see existing bitcoin miners are moving out of mining, it would reduce the mining difficulty and it would give chance to another group of miners to jump in if the network difficulty reaches to an optimum level. We will never see a complete stop in bitcoin mining ever. There will always be a group miners waiting for an opportunity to start with mining provided it is profitable to them. So if one set of miner moves out, there will always be another set of miners waiting to enter the market. So while the 2nd option is not entire impossible but extremely unlikely to happen!

Hope this helps!  

Lol buddy, don't insult bitcoin. In your above sentence, bitcoin better be the apple while Oil is the generator.

Responding to the OP, the price of bitcoin can never be traded in negative figure, the only possible outcome is, the market will lack buyers meanwhile there'll excess sellers willing to sell their bitcoin at very cheap price but they won't find anyone willing to buy those coins off their hands. This is just an absolution though as the possiblity of this happening is nearly zero.

Bitcoin isn't been regulated by any government body that you'll think a ban on its patronage would be that effective to render the coin useless. China has tried that in the past but only had a short term success of affecting the price of bitcoin. Although it didn't send it to a negative value as that's just impossible.

Great comment.
But, look at the conditions I highlighted. What if those conditions were to be true, then what'll happen?

If there is no demand for bitcoin, then the inelastic will be forced to become elastic automatically.

I guess that you either didn't reflect enough, either trying to rise a fake problem.
There's a huge difference between goods/objects that take space (storage) and computer/virtual things that don't need warehouses.

The oil negative price was temporary to avoid getting the point they don't have any means to store it and also avoid shutting down production.
Bitcoin is generated in the same way and the transaction go on in the same way no matter what's its price in US Dollar. 1 BTC = 1 BTC.

So basically you compared apples with virtual oranges.

There are millions of dollars in lost Bitcoin! They will be lost forever, and more gets lost by unlucky people every day!

first of all that number is not price of oil exactly. that is the result of contracts that were made months ago by the companies thinking their storages would be empty by now and they can re-fill it with the oil that they receive now. but since the usage were reduced and a lot of other things that led to their storages remain full, they can no longer store the new oil they are supposed to receive now. so they have to pay a less amount of money that it would cost them to transfer the oil to their place and store it somehow to someone else to take it off their hands. in other words they are trying to lose less money.
that is not something that can ever happen in bitcoin! storing bitcoin doesn't cost anything like oil does!

1. who bans bitcoin? the entire world? that would never happen. one or two or even 10 countries banning bitcoin is not going to change anything as it is currently banned in some of them.
2. the same as #1.

you can never prevent people from using something that is decentralized.

This is not new to have a thought of what if bitcoin goes to negative value. We've seen people who were thinking of bitcoin to go zero then there's this scenario that happens to oil so people started to compare it with the latter. But you have to look for certain factors that might cause bitcoin to that percentage. But with this factor quoted below, it's highly unlikely that it will go to negative.


It can be back to a few centavos to 1 digit per piece but not negative.

This is why oil was in the negatives:


So strictly speaking, oil itself doesn't have negative value, the said futures contracts of oil do. Future contracts of oil that don't require you to take physical custody should still retain some value. But yeah, unless it somehow cost you money to hold Bitcoin (which can never realistically happen), no doomsday scenario can lead to a negative valuation.

Both of these are very unlikely to happen, especially "ban in the demand", which even doesn't make any sense. Demand is not something goverment can ban, it is determined by desire or ability of people to buy something. Governments can't stop people who want to buy something valuable. If people continue to see bitcoin as valuable asset, they will buy it and hold it. For bitcoin to stop being demanded by people, it needs to lose all the properties that make him valuable. If bitcoin weren't decentralized, secure, scarce, censorship-resistant, etc, it wouldn't have value at all and its price would be zero, but still no negative

If there is no demand for Bitcoin, then the value will hit zero. It will not go lower than that. You aren't paying a rent for your wallet, are you?

Are you referring to these?


1. That ban has already taken place in the past and even until today. Bitcoin is still sticking around, right? If in case each and every country in the world bans the buying and use of Bitcoin, that does not necessarily mean Bitcoin will hit zero or a negative value. The online universe is as wide as the real universe. People can do as many things there. The good thing about Bitcoin is that a ban will remain just a mere word people can easily dismiss as nuisance. There is nothing to shut down really; there is nothing to padlock; there is nothing to takeover; and so on.

2. If every single miner is backing out, then Bitcoin becomes useless, zero in other words, but not negative. But whether it happens in real life or not is a different story altogether.

It is True that crypto currency is volatile but anything can happen, but bitcoin going negative is not one of that.
bitcoin is not only the king of blockchain and crypto currency, it is widely accepted and even countries such as China, Korea and India atr beginning to embrace it.

If a country as large as usa finally express acceptance and widely adoption of bitcoin, the price would surge even higher

I agree that Bitcoin cannot have a negative value. I think it's deeply related to the way price formation and trading works. Here's a quote from a Forbes article  (http://forbes.com/sites/sarahhansen/2020/04/21/heres-what-negative-oil-prices-really-mean/#edb78325a85d)about oil:
If you need to dispose of something because keeping it will involve additional costs, so you pay someone to take it, that's how you reach a negative price. Those who have BTC usually don't have associated risks of holding, so there's no need to pay someone to take your Bitcoins. This means that even if Bitcoin costs nothing, nobody would pay to get rid of it, and thus the price would never be negative. Even miners can just shut down but they surely won't pay people to take those Bitcoins miners mined.

There are a lot of issues behind the negative value of crude oil including demand to be collapsed, storage and other factors.
In case of bitcoin, even if there is no demand, still BTC will not be negative value because no one will be needed to spend anything on storage. If you check what happened on mtgox hack, you will get that it is impossible to get negative value for bitcoin.

 ???  I have read a few threads why its actually associated with oil price what to do with BTC

After a brief read, the way those hackers managed to steal those 2K Bitcoins was quite amusing. Forcibly reduce the price to 1 cent and quickly snapped up all of them.

Theoratically it's possible for BTC to go to the negative (provided someone's willing to payto rid Bitcoins off his/ her possession), but there's absolutely no logical reason to do so. After all, one could just dispose of them by sending the amounts to some unknown address or changing the password to the wallet.

The same with me from the previous day the market price of the oil drops rapidly and this is not a piece of good news it hits all over the market price and today there are a lot of people asking too does the market price of the bitcoin becomes negative? The answer is absolute No. There is a chance that the market price of the bitcoin drops lower than 1$ but still, it has a value unlike the oil also we have the miners to keep up the quantity of the bitcoin because miners too are the responsible on it if they stop the supply of the bitcoin becomes limited and also today there are a lot of people accepting the use of the bitcoin as the use for a transaction and this is good because by now they are starting to build and promote the efficiency of the future transactions of the bitcoin.

For the people wondering if Bitcoins become negative in value they will be paid to buy some Bitcoins , well it is not true.
Firstly Bitcoins can never be negative trust me. They are far too popular to go tulips .
There are people waiting around this world for the Bitcoins price to hit bottom so that they can purchase as much as they can , also the government have seen acceptance of cryptocurrencies like Bitcoins everywhere.
Bitcoins it is a risky asset and therefore we are always a scared of loosing the money here but at the same time we have seen ups and downs , but it always excelled .
With the central banks and governments creating their own online government bank currencies , one can imagine how the acceptance of Bitcoins will grow over time.
In a crisis like this with banks and governments failing , Bitcoins is much more effective and efficient in providing a major breakthrough for everyone involved , it opens up the opportunities of overseas trading and which is unmatched by any governmental service .
Also I understand that Bitcoins is not a safe heaven , but let's be honest: what is ?
Even USD which was supposed to be a safe asset for millions of people , trading in it , crashed out suddenly and the situation is not set to improve in the upcoming year , proves that the government based assets reaches dead end at any pandemic , epidemic or war , we need a currency like Bitcoins to neutralize the situation.
To let people choose and expand their horizons . Besides providing jobs , it has been proven to provide opportunities + having international transfers safer and cheaper .

1. How does exactly do a government ban Bitcoin? The answer is they have no power to ban this technology even if they try it so hard they will never ever prevent people from using it. Even those giant countries like China can't ban Bitcoin.
2. Even there are a lot of miners that will back off there will be tons of miners that will enter the business because of the great opportunity that they'll see from it. For example when 10 miners are backing of there will be 20 or more miners that will surely enter the business.

You are just becoming sensitive to this kind of topic when crude oil and bitcoin is a different kind of thing to each other. Have you ever seen a currency that became negative in value? of course never. When Bitcoin will be banned in the whole world, there will be some kind of association that will accept it. As you can see right now, Bitcoin is going strong amidst this pandemic and that is one of the reasons why your speculation is never going to happen at all.

Take for instance, miners pays for the cost of electricity generation to mine bitcoins n the hope of paying the cost when such bitcoins are sold.

In the case of zero demand, do we still need bitcoin? It'll become worthless while the miners and investors will be hugely indebted.

Such can only happen in centralized project like crude oil not a decentralized coin like bitcoin, if bitcoin ever gets as low as $100 then the space is gone. Those in the tokenomics understand some of this and spend a lot to stay above some prices. It is also a result of politics and pandemic. At that negative I believe someone is already paying for it, Government most likely. The price is not really negative or less than $0, it means oil is in excess supply and no demand at all for it.

Anyone can simply throw away his private key and get rid of his bitcoin. I believe there will be no short of throwing away the private key, the dust bin is enough to do so. So, no, Bitcoin can never go negative value.
However, bitcoin to be valueless will take at least a few decades from now.

Hello everybody. I think that at the current level of manipulation, the value of bitcoin can take on any value, including negative ones. There is absolutely nothing to do with the nature of the market condition of an asset. Here the most important desire of the market maker. Any market is one huge lie. If the market maker cannot shake out certain liquidity from the market by his manipulations, why not take the most extreme step by lowering the price below zero. We can only be smart here - what bitcoin is widespread and cool. There is only one law - the law of the market maker.

Supply of Bitcoin isn't perfectly inelastic. Supply of something is said to be perfectly inelastic when the price of such commodity has no impact on its supply. In real world, nothing is perfectly inelastic. In case of Bitcoin, supply of Bitcoin in the market increases whenever price rises or falls by high margins. Many investors who were reluctant to sell earlier, become willing to sell in such conditions. We consider market supply (not real supply) to evaluate whether a commodity is elastic or not.

Also not to forget that new Bitcoins are still being created, so supply is not fixed (which is another condition for perfectly inelastic market).

So this isn't the reason why Bitcoin can never be negative. The main reason why I think Bitcoin can never fall below zero is due to the computational work involved in its creation. Anything which is created by spending value (electricity) always possess value.

Still too early in our era. Let our grandchildren worry about that, assuming they invest in Bitcoin too :D

If you ever worry about this, I promise I'll take them off your hands for free!

The chance to see bitcoin negative is the same chance than see the gold negative. Are things that never will happen... But why it happens with the oil? It was because people invest money in it, and when the oil company told them 'Where should i send the oil?' people start selling it like crazy. And some people were ready to pay for other ones to take those oil barrels.

Worst case scenario it will have 0 value not negative, however, it's so unlikely as Bitcoin managed to keep its value through hard times.  :)

The OP is maybe confuse and wondering if the same price crash is going to happen with bitcoin, I must say that bitcoin could also be looking that way as what the crude industry looks like but it won't be in zero.
Aside if you seen bitcoin at $100 would not you buy it? lol everyone is dreaming bitcoin to be at the price as if it was back in the humble beginnings of bitcoin, probably around a hundred of bucks. Pandemic is hitting us hard now you can actually see it with the markets, but crypto is at the position of taking off for upcoming halving and I think this pandemic is not going to be a huge problem until the halving is over.

Well if you know bitcoin market very well you will know that the market is always volatile and any thing can happen, just like the crude oil market if the demand drop the price will also follow. The covid 19 pandemic have dealt heavy on the economy.

it seems like the opposite to me. oil very much has (or recently had) negative value.

settled physically deliverable futures contract = a true measure of the underlying commodity itself. if you need to pay people to take delivery on oil, that tangibly reflects the market value. storage costs (cost of carry) are characteristic of the real underlying asset. it is unsettled futures contracts---or contracts that don't require physical delivery---that don't reflect the true cost of carry. these can retain value precisely because they don't reflect the true value of oil.

this isn't just about oil speculators being unable to store oil. oil producers in the USA are generally still operating at full capacity because 1. shutting down wells is expensive, labor-intensive, and can permanently damage the site. and 2. producers took SBA bailout loans and will operate until the money runs dry, then they will default and not repay the loans. all the oil they are producing has to go somewhere, even if they have to pay someone to take it.

this could never happen to bitcoin because unlike oil, bitcoin has no carrying cost.

Not really. It can't end up being on a negative value, since you won't be incurring any loss or you do not have to spend anything to store your coins. I am not surprised that you have never heard of negative pricing. Let me explain it to you on layman's term. The demand for oil fell due to this pandemic. But, oils are still being pumped at the same rate. Now, they are no longer being able to store those extra oils. Again, storing is also costing them a lot. So, they are giving away their oils and paying to get it off their hands. Now you might be thinking why don't they just shutdown their operation and stop pumping all those oils, right? Well, terminating and restarting everything is going to cost them a lot more!
I am sure you have heard of negative interest rate. That's another interesting topic.

First of all I want to say that it has nothing to do with bitcoin and I'll explain later.
Now, what happened? Because of corona virus there were made a lot of restrictions around the world regarding to travelling. Stay at home resulted in decreased car usage. You don't need fuel if you don't use car.
Price of crude oil become negative which directly means owners pay you to just own, store it. In economics we have one rule: There is demand - there is supply but current situation is the pure example of what happens when there is excessive supply but no demand. But situation isn't that simple right now because company owners can't just throw it and at the same time their storage capacity could run out in May so they have to get rid of it anyway. What's the latest deal? To pay someone to just get it. It's like, imagine what do you do when your phone is out of storage and have upcoming information to store? You are pushed to delete some information but you need it, it's important, so you are paying others to store it, in this case cloud storage companies. In this case both, cruide oil company owners and you are seeking for storage.

But such situation can't happen on bitcoin!
First of all by owning bitcoin you don't lose anything, you can receive 21 million bitcoin in your wallet without any storage issues or etc, then can just destroy it. No one loses by owning bitcoin so there is no need to pay any cent someone for just sending and storing of it. Even if bitcoin becomes banned all around the world, don't even think that miners will pay you just to get mining equipments, no, because those equipments contain parts that can be recycled and used for other purposes which means owners will get at least some money.

In my opinion it is impossible for the price of bitcoin to be negative, to be zero is very unlikely. I think bitcoin is not possible losing demand,
with all the benefits we can get from bitcoin. And also bitcoin can't be banned by all countries, the proof is now the number of countries that
legalize bitcoin continues to grow.

Very remarkable explanations. I also see some insignificant variable costs associated in storing our bitcoin. The cost include, buying devices for that purposes, buying internet subscription to download software wallets etc.

Shouldn't we factor these cost into our analysis of the possibility of bitcoin becoming negative.

This is response is outstanding among the comments on this threads. I want everyone to pay attention to this particular comment as I ask this question.

With due regards, kindly explain what you mean by 'privacy of bitcoin' and 'censorship of the bitcointalk forum'

Thanks

Never mate because you must not compared Bitcoin to other physical form
as they are not meant to be.
Bitcoin can become lower in price but won't end the demand so it is impossible to turn zero value and will never in negative.
and also even Miners stops mining yet the value will remain as people will continue to use this and never to be abandoned .

The negative crude oil price was very absurd and kinda funny.There's no such thing as a "negative price" in the normal world of market economy.
A negative price of -37 USD means that sellers will have to PAY YOU in order to convince you to "buy" their product(which is free).This is absurd and it will never happend.
Most Oil producing countries will be fine.Russia will face some hard times in the short term and the rich monarchies in middle east will have to cut their spending  for luxurious goods for a while.
Anyway,the Bitcoin price can't become negative,it might go close to 1K or below,due to a mass worldwide ban,but it will never be close to 0$ or below 0$.

he's trolling.

bitcoin privacy is better than ever before. in the coming years, we'll have taproot to obfuscate transaction type and dandelion to obfuscate IP address. taproot will even obfuscate atomic swaps for mixing purposes.

privacy at the open protocol level is lacking today, but mixers, coinjoins, payjoins, and TOR are a solid baseline defense against blockchain analysis. they can throw heuristics at us (which taproot will make totally ineffective) but even now, blockchain analysis is mostly probability based. most of it would never hold up in court.

by "censorship" i assume he means BCH and BSV stuff gets moved to the altcoin forums or deleted.

Bitcoin is value of crypto other country because Bangladesh is not accepted in bitcoin. Bangladesh govt don't accepted in bitcoin. bitcoin is illegal for Bangladesh but not other country. So other country accepted bank or booth and other payment getaway. Bangladesh some are people are using bitcoin they are not proper way to get more profit because Bangladesh govt can,t accepted in this currency.

Uuhm,  ::) ???I don’t think that such can happen to Bitcoin. There was a reason why the Oil market has dropped to a negative price. The news has it that in a bid to avoid incurring storage cost, the sellers are now paying their buyers to take deliveries. This is the first time that such has happened in history, and to be sincere, a lot of people in the past would have doubted that such a thing would ever happen, but now it happened.

So in the case of Bitcoin, I am not going to doubt it, neither am I expecting it to happen. It would be better that it never happens, because a lot of people would see that as an opportunity to make some foolish comments. Bitcoin will keep growing, and as the years goes on, the community will grow along with the price.

I don't think that it will ever come to that and the reason for that is the fact that it has a limited supply and the supply withing the circulation is also dictating how much the price will be (supply and demand), unlike oil, bitcoin is a currency and oil is a commodity, right now the pandemic is ravaging the world and making a worldwide lockdown which in turn will make people unable to go to their jobs and it also means that there will be less transport that is going to occur, which greatly affected oil prices because again the supply and demand does not match obviously, my point is that bitcoin will never go in negative value because it is a currency, for context, did the value of Bolivares go negative?

To have a negative value, the cost to keep an asset should be more than its viable cost to sell. If there are laws to ban bitcoin and punish even if we hold it, then we gotta pay others who are going to hold it for us for a fee. And if that fee is greater than the value of btc,  voila! You just got paid to receive bitcoin.

I am even pleased with the current state of the oil products market. Mankind has long had to gradually abandon the use of oil and stop polluting the environment. We have practically unlimited sources of energy - these are wind and solar energy. The current situation in this market and the apparent abrupt climate change may make us finally take a different look at the use of natural resources.
Cryptocurrency has a completely different nature of its functioning. Here completely different problems are possible and negative cost does not threaten her.

The first case is very unlikely to happen. We have passed that period when we got scared that bitcoin was going to be banned the world over. It rid not happen then and I do not see it happening now. The second case is likely to happen but I do not think all miners will leave at the same time. There are miners who do what they do for the love of bitcoin. Those miners will not leave.

The block reward (block subsidy+transactions fees) is the only reason why miners continue to mine coins in the bitcoin network. If there weren't any incentivizing aspect like that, the bitcoin network wouldn't exist at all. Nobody is mining just for the love for bitcoin, because this is very expensive process to prove the work. Miners are selling their time and electrical power to be rewarded with bitcoin. Some of them do love bitcoin, but still they likely have to sell it all the time in order to cover the costs. Satoshi Nakamoto designed the network so that there would always be an incentive to keep it safe. He understood that no one would work for just love alone.

the case for WTI oil has a reason why the price is minus. it is because their supply is abundant while demand is not as much as inventory. I read in some news that the cost to temporarily stop production is greater than making reservoirs for abundant oil, so they make the price minus, or even pay for anyone who wants to hold the oil. well, abundant supply and production is the reason, while bitcoin has limits for it, even mining also requires time, and demand is very much. for now, I don't think the price of bitcoin can be the same as the price of the WTI oil.

That would be a massive pull out if that thing happens but how could they do that if they already establish and got a good benefit from mining bitcoins, can they do this with the the other alts? maybe yes but for sure its for short term only and for sure if all miners will not synchronized for sure there will be a different figures on results and I don't think they will leave bitcoins either since this is strong crypto among the others.

I do not think that the price of bitcoin can be negative, halving is done so that there is no currency inflation, the number of ATMs for cryptocurrencies is increasing, more and more countries are starting to use bitcoin more than before. Therefore, it is difficult to imagine such a thing as a negative price.

The lack of privacy is not a problem of Bitcoin but people who choose centralized exchanges. I feel totally anonymous holding and exchanging my BTC, as I never do it on platforms that require KYC.
Regarding the negative value, oil went negative because it sold for less than it costs to mine it. Bitcon can easily go into that kind of negative.

If we are talking about the security of the bitcoin we don't have a problem regarding with that because all of the information and security of the bitcoin is already encrypted, just many people said that the bitcoin is not secured because they already experience some errors and scams but this is not the mistake of the bitcoin itself it is all about the user because by visiting the unsecured platform, fill up a form that is came from u known sources, clicking a link came from emails. That is the cause of too much damage to your devices and this is not quite good, because it causes damage to your accounts because they have no access to your devices. @OP in terms of the negative value the bitcoin does not have any chance in terms of getting negative value because it is used for every transaction so the market price and value of the coin may circulate and still has a value to maintain, we all known that the price of the coin came from the lower price too, the price may bring down but does not reach a negative value.

What are you even talking about?
This is the definition of shitposting. People could learn from you how to write a decent looking but meaningless paragraph. You just took a bunch of words like "the bitcoin", "price" and "value" and mashed it up in a random order. Great nickname by the way. This really looks like something an assface would write.

For more than 10 years now nothing of that sort has happened and for the next 10 years, I do not foresee anything. I can only see the growth and adaptability of Bitcoin. I cannot comment about the forum as I still consider my self new here.

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That only happened in the USA and not Globally. the Brent crude price which is used by most countries was still holding and is still holding on.

As per my knowledge crude is a non-reusable physical entity. It can go into negative if Global consumption becomes zero. Bitcoin is a digital assets so it is only available digitally and not physically. If the global internet shuts down then it will disappear or in other word vanish. It can never go to into negative numbers but end.

and we will count another 10 years again that nothing like this will happen so OP is just wasting His time asking this stupid question here.

Bitcoin will Grow and lose many times now and in future but not to the extent that the price will goes negative like OIL share last month.
because crypto is not like Stocks and also not that affected or physical world.

The price of a barrel of crude oil declined to a negative $38 as we know is due to the effects of the Covid19. The transportation system is paralyzed worldwide as a result of covid19, therefore, there is no demand for crude oil to create fuels.

After leaving the state of emergency we will gradually recover. It is a chaotic situation but keeps the faith that we will recover. We need to be optimistic, imagine you I live in Venezuela that we depend on oil exploitation, we also gold and other minerals but we are blocked by the USA. It is a terrible situation for us.

A shocking way to put historic oil price drop in perspective
https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/drop-in-oil-prices-could-go-swimmingly-for-you/ (https://nypost.com/2020/04/20/drop-in-oil-prices-could-go-swimmingly-for-you/)

What you need to know Bitcoin has been a long journey today ten years since it was founded, at first only a handful of cryptographers were known, Bitcoin initially only used a payment method called the dark web, very grateful to current Bitcoin users for special attention to the mainstream since 2013 until now.

Along with the growth of the global era that supports the government, people who understand Bitcoin as a potential revolutionary crypto, with a large increase in demand with a total capacity of only 21 million units available, thus making the price always positive and expensive.

Bitcoin cannot be valued from crude oil or the reduction in oil in the world, both in terms of its usefulness or otherwise, bitcoin does not become negative only in favor of the world's crude oil, ada banyak hal yang dapat membuat Bitcoin positif.

What you really need to know is that Bitcoin in the future depends very much on its users and also these two factors, 1. The method of media trading / buying and exchange 2. as a storage of high-value currencies such as investment.

I don't think the price of Bitcoin will be as ridiculous as the price of oil, because Bitcoin is not controlled by any particular person, and the price of oil is ridiculous because of the common Covid-19, and Bitcoin may rise because of the Covid-19, because of the different paper money. If everyone uses Bitcoin / Crypto Currency in case Covid-19 is found, then there is a risk of getting a lot of protection from Covid-19 in terms of transactions, considering that aspect. May be able to laugh with it, I do not think the price.

But this comment go to the opinion of almost all the comment on this thread.
According to what commentators have said is that to store bitcoin one doesn't require payment for storage unlike oil storage which is the reason for the negative Price of oil.

So, can we further clarify your stance on this?

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[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

That’s the worst thing that can happen to bitcoin and we all know that any country can make such move to ban bitcoin, and create chaos to cryptoworld. If bitcoin becomes negative, then we are all stuck to the system of our government who always print money. Well, its good to have gold as well so when bitcoin dumps, you still have the gold.

I do not think it can become negative because it means that somebody will pay you if you own btc rather than we paying it currently to buy bitcoin. Also one of the case I think just if needs to happen would be only if a country makes it legal currency of their country and when people do not want to have btc then just in case govt may give money to people to have it and use.

I don't think there is any relation between Bitcoin and the price of oil, or there will be any effect on Bitcoin like the price of oil, because the price of something goes down when the demand for that commodity goes down a lot. I can't compare it to oil as the day is increasing. I think no matter what the restrictions are, people can't stop using Bitcoin, I live in a country where I get 2-4 years in jail if I find out I use Bitcoin, and I have to pay cash, but I Thousands of people in our country are using it without stopping, but it will be the same in all countries, which is what we are doing.

Don't wanna be off-topic, but I just have to: don't read Bloomberg

Will be for bitcoin become negative value if many countries stop for bitcoin become legal investment and not available for every one trade with exchange, look when bitcoin got problem with hacker make bitcoin price drop and always every years get big moment when exchange market hacked, how come if every months have exchange hacked.

That's close to impossible but still have probabilities since bitcoins still uncontrollable and it's on open market if people will not support this coin anymore for sure the dumping of price will happen but since bitcoins itself is well rooted in this industry for sure any single movements regarding on its negativity on value will be hard to achieve since one thing is for sure here many people will backed it up since this is the most well known cryptocurrency and much been adopted well compare to other alts.

Bitcoin is entirely different from oil. Bitcoin can never be zero or below. The only scenario where i can see bitcoin going to zero is people stop using bitcoins and there is no demand (maybe an issue is triggered in the blockchain). If that happens, bitcoin will be finished. Don't expect bitcoin to go to zero and bounce back from there. It will be dead forever if it goes to zero in value.

You'll eventually get used to these type of comments, my friend. They're almost everywhere because quota.

Do you remember about bitcoin innovation?

Bitcoin offers many benefits for all users and bitcoin is not solely abount trading and in my opinion there are some things that make the price of bitcoin will not be zero, is:
Global accessibility, Every bitcoin user will benefit from it, especially related to global accessibility. We can accept and send bitcoin anywhere and anytime with just one click.
Cost efficiency, We do not need to think about transaction costs that are too much even though transactions are carried out between countries.

In my opinion all innovations from bitcoin strongly support that prices will not be zero. Adobsi which continues to increase will allow it to continue to exist and continue to be used primarily by the bitcoin community itself.

Wow this is a  long thread. Has anyone mentioned that it was the West Texas Intermediate May contract that resulted in the negative value, and not the price of oil in general. Brent crude was still trading in double figures per barrel.It was simply the result of the unwary speculators being faced with having to accept physical delivery without any storage capacity. Bitcoin is stored ( recorded) on the blockchain, so there is no equivalent situation.

And what makes you imagine a situation where there is "no demand". I can't see bitcoin having no demand. If people believed in bitcoin when it had little demand in the years back, how then can bitcoin demand turn to zero.

Oil never turned to a negative price... Oil FUTURES contracts turned to a negative price. There is a big difference between the two.  Can bitcoin ever go to negative in value? Absolutely, why not? Bitcoin is far from having "made it".  As Andreas Antonopolous so often compares the life of cryptocurrency to.. we are just in the beginning stages just like the Internet.  "The internet of Money".  How many companies that were around and dominating internet wise back then, around today?  It's not a perfect comparison, but the point should be clear...things changes, and those first out, rarely maintain for long periods of time.  Bitcoin could be replaced by a bigger better crytpo coin, driving it's value to zero one day.  Anytime soon though I don't see it.  There are too many activities (illicit or not) that bitcoin has helped that I don't see if falling to zero anytime soon..but the possibility remains.

You cant tell and yes, it might really be nearly impossible for that thing to happen but there would always be a possibility.
We wont know if there would be another crypto which would be more better than btc but that kind of possibility is nearly on zero.
Its really hard to believe that bitcoin would go negative in value but we should expect that there's always a chance but basing on its current
demand then its no surprise that people would have the same input.

I don't see any reasons or any scenarios that will make Bitcoin negative in value.

One thing more, don't compare what happened to crude oil to Bitcoin because they are 2 different assets. Its not the Oil's price itself that went negative but its the futures that went negative. The news media didn't state it again and left the readers misinformed.

It happened to Crude so there is still a chance that Bitcoin will go not to negative but to zero maybe but the chances of it is like in lottery or even lower. Almost impossible for it to happen.

Bitcoin will never go to negative because it has demand that's not printable supply like paper money making inflation not possible and a revolutionary technology backing it up and it is not like the centralized monetary system that it has a single source of authority thus making it extremely difficult for banks or governments to shut it down.

From the previous weeks, we are seeing the market price of the bitcoin rapidly falling down, but this is not the same like the other market price of the coins bitcoin does not have the capability to make more downward of the market price because most of the people today are using this kind of coins to make more sending funds and payment transactions so there is no chance that it will reach the negative value also we have the miners which are continuously making an producing more coins to the community. In the other hand, the bitcoin will never get a negative market value.

First, crude oil sold only a portion of the futures contract that expired at zero, but the base price for effective futures did not fall. As for bitcoin , despite all these harsh conditions in light of the current crisis, it fights and continues to succeed, which proves that it cannot end so easily.

You just broke someone ribs @BrainBoss, am old and was advise by my Dr. to be more careful with joke that could possibly rib out my life  ;D, sincerely speaking the oil negativity wasn't forecasted by some random soothsayers who are all the time at war with Bitcoin. Hope they learn that Bitcoin and cryptocurrency still make a good investment platform. In my opinion, from now to 2140 I can't see a negative value from this trending technology that some of us have seen as a save investment package.

It had done it more than once in the past and can do it again. It's not like Bitcoin is immune to negative drops.

It was on the negative when it was trading for 300 dollars in 2015 and it did the same thing twice in this recent bear market. One time when it went to 3000 dollars in 2018 and briefly this year.

Negative doesn't mean below 1 dollar. It means below the price of mining.

Of course this will not happen to bitcoin because when there is no more demand for bitcoin then in the end bitcoin will die and also, bitcoin is not centralized and bitcoin has a limited supply which is very likely that demand will always be there until its value will at least continue to increase despite the level fluctuations in this market are huge but that is not a problem as long as bitcoin trading is accepted or recognized worldwide.

There are people in bitcoin community who will not allow price of bitcoin fall to zero. These are bitcoin believers, maximalists, cypherpunks , etc. No matter what is happening with bitcoin, they keep believing in it and keep buying it especially when it falls. Although you know what. There is no such thing as "no demand for bitcoin".  Bitcoin is not just regular asset for speculation. It is a new technology that can not disappear after it once showed up. This is no demand for bitcoin, this is demand for the possibility to change our monetary system in the way that serves not only governments and banks, but all human beings in the world. Such a technology just cannot fall to zero.

But what makes people stop invest in Bitcoin? It is also rather impossible as I think a too small chance happens. Bitcoin is growing in adoption and the use of a digital payment tool. For me, it is a positive sign that Bitcoin can survive a long time. As it continues, it is doubtful to see the negative value of Bitcoin, even the value will be bigger because of its advantage.

That's the thing! No one will ever stop people from investing in this crypto currency. It is one of the best investments you can have right now, and if you have it earlier, the better. If there will be some way for people to stop investing in bitcoin, then we can talk about this but even though there are a lot of scams, dumps, and hacks that are happening, people are still using it since they know that in the near future, it will give them a good profit.

Unlikely? Try impossible.

Bitcoin will never go to zero. But I do see it dropping to around $500 in the next 3 years.

You're just changing the definition of "negative", which is not what OP asked for. He asked if the price can be negative in mathematical sense, and the answer is clearly no, because Bitcoin doesn't have any big costs for storing/moving it, like oil does. The cost of mining isn't relevant much, it's miners problem, not holder's. And there's not even such thing as universal price of mining, every miner has their own bill that can be very different from what other miners have.

There's a huge difference between mining for Bitcoin and oil. Countries in the world can easily increase the volume of oil that they can produce as most of them are not producing at the maximum capacity. If this were to applied to Bitcoin, the increase in the difficulty every 2016 block would be enough to counter the effects of the increase in resources. Even if it is done to further their political agenda, the effect is fairly limited.

To the reason for the negative oil value; storing oil incurs losses and if there is no use for oil, it would make more economical sense to dump them off to someone else. Since no one wants it, they would pay people to get it off their hands. Bitcoin in comparison, doesn't incur any expenses and this scenario would never happen to Bitcoin.

I do not know if I am right or wrong about this, but from what I understood, the reason why the price of oil turned negative is because there is no one buying them. The sellers are even begging the buyers and paying them to buy oil. So in this kind of situation, for sure there is going to be a negative price. But in the case of bitcoin, I don't see that as something that's possible.

For Bitcoin to even drop to dollar, I think everyone that's into it and investing in it will have to quit from it, and that includes the exchanges. I can't even imagine such a thing happening. Bitcoin can't and won't drop to a negative price and that's it.

I don't know if that can happen, All I know is Bitcoin is different from oil. We all know that both rely on supply and demand, The recent oil crash reason is mainly the coronavirus. The oil storage of the company is so full because they can't sell oil very much in this situation. It is one of the reasons why oil experience a sudden dump. On the other hand, Bitcoin would probably crash into zero when i. Internet connection was cut all over the world (Bitcoin is unusable = no value) ii. All mining is stopped iii. End of the world. There is much reason but bitcoin price would step below zero I think.

Actually that is possible, I witness some of the coin drop to 0 and comeback within a minute the reason behind this is with the certain exchange, there's one trader that got fucked-up and sell all of his holdings until it drop to 0 and some or buy until it got to millions. I don't remember that certain exchange but there's a issue in the past like that. It's possible but also impossible.

It's possible on a random exchange to happen but  impossible as a general, and as the whole bitcoin itself, I hope you are getting my point  :)

Funny thread ;D

And - to bring in a completely new opinion - yes, it can become negative, for a short timeframe. The probability is extremely low, but it can happen.

Let's consider the following scenario:

Bitcoin has "died", i.e. nobody wants to buy it anymore, the blockchain has stopped to work. Basically the same scenario thousands of altcoins already are suffering from.

Now someone wants to "revive" the currency, for example if he quietly mined a lot of BTC alone for almost zero cost or got Bitcoins for free from people who stopped using it. However, people are so reluctant to use Bitcoin that they don't even accept it in the form of an airdrop.

So ok, what could this guy do? Well, offer money or another kind of gratification for people using Bitcoin. (This is basically what some ICOs/altcoins are already doing, if you think it well). Let's say he gives out 1 BTC to everybody and additionally gives 1 USD to the first 1000 participants of his airdrop who are proving that they're using a Bitcoin client. He hopes that after his airdrop finished, the currency would be again in use, and the price would start to climb so he can sell his remaining Bitcoins for a lot of money.

As he's the only market participant "selling" Bitcoin and he's doing so for a negative price (in my example, the price would be -1$), so the price of Bitcoin is becoming negative in this case ;D (It would go to zero or higher again after his airdrop has finished, but the question wasn't that it can "stay" negative).

We never know what will happen in the future and we never know bitcoin will have a value or not in the future. Because everything can be happened on this world, especially with the media it can make something bad will go to a good thing and something good will go to a bad thing. I see bitcoin will be very usefull in the future, the technology is something that can't be separated by human being. Especially for transaction place, bitcoin can replace it. You can see how much price that will be spend for someone if he intend to transfer money? How many parties which are involved? And bitcoin can resolve it.

Fine statement. This is how its associated with BTC. Agree first that the economy are parts that fits together.

Do you know there are certain oil investor's that also invest in BTC or cryptocurrency. So, if there money go down the drain that'll affect the demand for BTC...
when the demand for BTC is less price will plummeted.

So, there is a chain reaction when any variable adjust in an economy.

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You actually have a solid point with this lines. For a better understanding can you explain what you mean by those terms and what can cause BTC to take negative values based on your example?

[moderator's note: consecutive posts merged]

If the current proof of work Bitcoin were to become the main currency in the World, we would all be left breathing hot ash from the smoldering remains of our cooked earth.

The price of bitcoin can never be negative because the selling price in the current cryptocurrency market works a lot. Bitcoin can hold the number one position as a developing country in the world at present so we need to read it in a positive market to bring it to a better position with the developed world banking. The system is being launched and bitcoin through banking as the price level at which we can say with payment in bitcoin never negative, can not be expected to be positive, it's always something to positive, then we will be able to market in valuable.

It has been proved in this thread that Bitcoin can't be negative even if the worst is to happen because unlike oil we don't pay to store Bitcoin.

But, from your remark, I want to say that bitcoins may not always be the number one digital currency in the market.

With the innovation of other coins in the market if bitcloins don't innovate too it can be displaced in ranking.

Anyways, anything can happen in an imperfect world like this until we have earth 2.0 (lol).

Oil price was negative for a brief moment as there were no more storage left and the pumps were not turned off to check the demand.
For bitcoin even if the demand plummets, there would be no constrain of storage as miners and any trader can store any amount of bitcoin without any cost and even offline.

This is better question in its core, than it seems at first place.

“Value” is always different for same object/service to different people. I give You sample from BDSM world. Some people pay money, to be whipped, while I would pay NOT to be, leave room and mistress the same for both cases. You should easily see, how differently me and the other person value some… service?

Now, this is also conver table to product and objects. I now for sure, that BTC is a scam, and whilst many who lose eventually real dollars in there, are just greedy bastards who eager for free effortless income, there are definitely exceptions. For example loving grandmother giving grandson live savings for “investment” so that he could start his own independent life. She is a victim. BTC separately has zero value for me (I really would not pay a penny), but the fact, that we are dealing with scam here and possibility of hurting that lovely grandmother, lessen value of BTC for me even lower. In fisherman words: “I would not take BTC, if You paid me to do so.”

So yes, its possible to have a negative value. myessayplanet.com

Correction: No currency would ever be negative - They can only equal to 0. The prices of oli was negative because they cannot find a place to store them.
Correction 2: A value of something is determined by the equilibrium.
Correction 3: Don't have the mindset of Bitcoin is a "get-rich-quick" thing. It is not. The value behind it is from the miners and the technology behind it.

PS: IF Bitcoin [or any other cryptocurrency] were to be in negative in value, simply, you just need to burn your private keys/seed (or send it to a burn address). (note: Most exchanges DO NOT Support trades in NEGATIVE terms so I suppose that this would be very unlikely to happen).

In my opinion it is not possible for Bitcoin to be negative in value, even though the price of Bitcoin continues to drop
to the lowest, Possibility zero in value. But that is very small possibility that Bitcoin zero in value can be seen that
Bitcoin demand has increased. This is what makes the price of Bitcoin go up. So I never hesitate to invest in Bitcoin.

For now, it's not possible as there are many people who already using this system, aside for being an assets for
investments there are also
businesses and establishments that caters this system and already adopt the use of this for payment transactions.
It's depends from how the supporters will embrace or dumped this assets.

I think I agree to some that it can also drop to that price but will never stay there, it will just go back up.

The scenario I am thinking is the Satoshi Nakamoto good and evil theory. Since he is holding a million bitcoins, if he is good, he will be holding that Bitcoin and if he is bad, he will be selling that huge amount to take it down. It is just a theory but with that huge number, I know the price will drop and there will be others that'll follow.

As I said, it can still go up from there. It might not even reach zero since I think it will just skyrocket after dropping.

Unlike oil, Bitcoin does not have funds for delivery. So it's just not possible.

Surely that all exchange will never admit that claim because the very first to be affected is their businesses.
How can you expect investors will stay if they admit the Zero value in future of bitcoin.

and besides only fool will buy this stupid story,imagine pricing more than thousand of dollars as i speak coming from $20,000?
this is a 10 year run so expect that increase instead of decrease.

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Panic is our  enemy and this is what those Fud spreading wanted to happen so let us not help them win,we must keep our Heads up and instead of selling?better buy more and more.

If we look on bitcoins value since it was created,it never become zero instead it go up to thousands of dollars until now. So,let us say, if the demand will decrease or their is no demand at all (Which is impossible) the bitcoins value will not become negative instead it will remain at the value where there is no buyer or demand. It means the value will become zero but not become negative. We can't compare the crude oil to bitcoin because they have different nature,usage and value.

Bitcoin is different from the oil. The oil is a commodity and it price can fall below zero (rarely) but bitcoin is a currency and you won't find any currency below zero. This is just not logical.
If you compare it with USD, it can fall to zero but that again is impossible to happen in real world. There are always buyers who are willing to buy bitcoin cheap.

Forget about the negative price. I don't think that the price can get near zero, because of the principle of controlled supply. As long as a single user remaining in the market, the price will remain above $0. Is it too much to expect, given that we have more than 100 million users as of now? Even a scam coin such as Bitcoin SV can have a couple of million users. Then what will prevent Bitcoin from having a minimum of a few million traders, even if something catastrophic happens and the value plummets? I would say that the level of $3,000 per coin that was reached in Q1 2019 was the bare minimum. It won't go lower than that.

I don't think bitcoin will ever go to negative because it will never go to zero at the first place.
Even if we consider the above scenario happening the price might fall down rapidly but it won't go to zero.
There are many people who will consider holding bitcoin rather than selling it for zero.

I don't think that's possible. It might not even go down to zero. There are times that Bitcoin will have a huge dip like what happened in 2018, but it's not possible anymore for BTC to go negative balance.

Unless if all BTCs were mined (probably in 2140 or a quantum computer), this is what we are trying to figure out on what happens if there will be no more BTC miners.