Bitcoin Forum

Goldman & Sachs recently held a conference call and discusses the bitcoin and gold in the backdrop of Covid-19 pandemic.

And attached below are the slide materials:

https://resources.goldman.com/content/dam/pwm/direct-links/isg-calls/client_call_materials_27May20.pdf?sa=n&rd=n

And according to them, (no surprise) , "Cryptocurrencies Including Bitcoin Are Not an Asset Class"

https://i.imgur.com/tols3TX.png

And in their conclusion, they said that bitcoin is not viable as investments.

I'm sure a lot of eyebrows have been raised here, Twitter will explode and will criticised Goldman & Sachs statement here.

What are your thoughts?

What they really mean:

• We can't manipulate it.
• We can't control it.
• We can't generate it.
• We can't mess with it in any easy way.
• Therefore, we think it's pointless, ignore it.

Is this the reason why Bitcoin has been pump in the last 24 hours?  ;D

Cash flow? I think Holders will disagree with that, as Bitcoin is 'cash saving" for majority of us.

Hedging inflation? Again, majority of us do believed that it can be it can be an instrument against uncertainty, just like we have seen during this pandemic.

And it seems that they just cherry pick their argument to fit their obvious narrative.

Quote from Tyler Winklevoss:


https://twitter.com/tylerwinklevoss/status/1265701227477839873

Well, they are bound to think within their traditional mindset. As a consequence, they end up trying to describe and assess Bitcoin within their own terms. And as expected, Bitcoin would fail. But whatever. What do you expect from no less than Goldman & Sachs?

Lovely statement! It is so complete that I can't even add anything else!

Probably that's the reason Goldman & Sachs is trying to prove to their clients. If I am not mistaken, the subject of their client conference was "Implications of Current Policies for Inflation, Gold and Bitcoin" and they have tried to decide whether bitcoin is an asset class or not! Anyway, I am happy that big financial corporates like Goldman & Sachs are showing their respect towards bitcoin by looking at it as a competitor!

-Goldman Sachs CAN manipulate cryptocurrencies,if they want to.They are currently manipulating all the markets they want-stocks,bonds,fiat currencies,etc.If they can manipulate something,they can control it
-Goldman can buy some mining equipment and build crypto mining farms somewhere around the world to mine cryptocurrencies,so they can hypothetically generate cryptocurrencies.

Your points might sound cool for the average crypto enthusiast,but they are far away from the truth.

This Goldman Sachs analysis is the typical "cryptocurrencies are too volatile and risky,don't buy them" type of FUD that has been around for years.

 

Exactly my thoughts.

Other issues against Bitcoin & other cryptocurrencies tackled in the report were:

• Used for illegal activities such as money laundering, ponzi schemes, darknet, ransomware, etc.
• Young market and susceptible to hacking

^ No matter how many times we debunk all those claims, the same old issue will be brought up/recycled in the years to come by the same group.

---

The report dismissed Bitcoin not an asset class but they don't have an opinion whether it's a currency or not? They described characteristics of a currency but that's it. Are they leaving it to the readers to determine whether bitcoin/crypto is used as a medium of exchange, serve as unit of account, and  a store of value?

Bitcoin is a competition to banks. It allows people do the same things like some of the banks' products, but with lower fees.
Of course, since instead of making them money, Bitcoin makes them lose money, they will advise as much as possible against it.
Maybe they should think of hiring a PR company that's free of dinosaurs, else they too will become extinct in a not so far future.

2018 - Goldman Sachs to Open a Bitcoin Trading Operation (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/technology/bitcoin-goldman-sachs.html)

2020 - "Cryptocurrencies Including Bitcoin Are Not an Asset Class"

Perhaps they are really 'threaten' and see bitcoin as competition today. And there are reports that people are putting the stimulus package on bitcoin and I think that is the big issue for them.

Anyhow, it's there call and I'm sure majority are going to trash them out for making a U-turn.

I would rather believe in what I think that follow these banking who think they are God and they know everything.
They could not be telling the truth or they could be bias as they have their interest being protected.

Goldman & Sachs should tell these to people who have made a fortune in bitcoin and now are living a life financially free.

Our evaluation is what really matters at all, just like when investing in crypto, we did our own research and we make a decision on what we believe, not because they are big and popular or they are a traditional business, they will be right all the time, it's about time that we prove them wrong.

It will always be difficult for people to leave whatever they get used to and adopt new things because of FUD.

I am not expecting that in this Goldman & Sachs meeting will bring a positive effect to bitcoin world however it is nice to know that they already recognize the crypto world and they are afraid of what's in it to them. Anyway, no winners could win right away winners really need to go through hardships and failures as well but in the end when bitcoin is already ripe then every bitcoin holders will ripe all their hardships and be the winner in the end.

What Goldman Sachs trying to be here, an investment noob? Ain't the appreciation of every asset is dependent upon a buyer who is willing to pay higher amount to buy it from the current holder? And as far as word 'primarily' is concerned, I doubt that the people arbitrarily paying such huge price for every unit of Bitcoin. The price of Bitcoin rose hugely over years due to the underlying technology. Why not the other cryptocurrencies are as expensive as Bitcoin? Simple because their blockchain is not as invincible as Bitcoin's. The time, efforts and cost needed to hack the Bitcoin network should be considered while doing Bitcoin's valuation. Aren't we counting that here, Goldy? Bitcoin is much more than a speculative investment.

https://www.facebook.com/Finance1news1/

@btc_angela basically Goldman Sachs just gave a Jamie Dimom type statement where they’ll first bash bitcoins, and then in coming years they’ll go on to praise bitcoin and then ask their client’s to invest in it. Furthermore Winklevoss brothers have roasted Goldman Sachs on twitter, and have openly called out their blunder as Bitcoin is a commodity, and now I’m waiting to see if Goldman Sachs will apologise or no for their statement.



Source:

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/28/goldman-sachs-vs-bitcoin-cryptocurrency-fans-lay-into-bank.html

As what I expected, Goldman & Sachs will not easily give up their standard notion on Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. However, I am sure that deep inside these people they are already feeling the wind of change. For now, they think they can still hold on to their traditional beliefs and convictions but time is coming when they will have no choice but to join the party otherwise miss to made some nice profits dealing with Bitcoin. The fact that they include this big topic means something: there is a very clear demand on their client base.

It is obvious that when banks as big as Goldman and Sachs doesn't make profit out of bitcoin, they then will see it as nothing. This is how they work, they are going to try to reject it by all means. Perhaps they have a lot of customers asking about bitcoin and this irritates them, that's why they came up with this so called presentation to quash them. Well it's their lost if some of their customers move out specially those who wanted to invest on bitcoin. And you can sense some fear (as a bank), so this is good for crypto.

Banks are against crypto because bitcoin can do banking without bank, and it's against their interest so they would not appreciate it, instead they will destroy it as they want to keep their centralized system and continue making profit on it.

Lots of rich people are against bitcoin especially are those who are in banking business, even Warren Buffett does not believe in bitcoin called it "gambling device".

Warren Buffett says bitcoin is a ‘gambling device’ with ‘a lot of frauds connected with it’ (https://www.cnbc.com/2019/05/04/warren-buffett-says-bitcoin-is-a-gambling-device-with-a-lot-of-frauds-connected-with-it.html)

Even if Goldman Sachs put Bitcoin on the line with Gold it means we are witnessing a paradigm shift right now! Bitcoin is an asset class now but soon it will obtain a new use case - currency.
https://newsblockchain.io/news/btc-and-gold-compete-as-a-store-of-value-after-halving

Goldman & Sachs bitcoin playbook:

Step 1: Attack bitcoin to dissuade our clients from investing - Ongoing
Step 2: Convince our clients to invest in our digitize assets - Pending

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/28/david-solomon-says-goldman-sachs-is-researching-creating-a-digital-currency.html
https://bravenewcoin.com/insights/goldman-sachs-will-tokenize-the-world

I guess Goldman Sachs is playing like Jamie Dimon's JP Morgan Chase. They are giving the people the idea that they don't like bitcoin and stops them to invest in bitcoin. But, there is a tendency that they are already in it and is silently accumulating.

Good one Tyler, I'll wait if GS will reply on his tweet.  ;D

They didn't say that it's not a viable investment, they said they don't recommend it to their clients who are looking to hedge themselves against the impact of covid-19 on the economy. They admitted that Bitcoin is a viable option for speculators. I don't see what's wrong with this statement, everyone knows that Bitcoin is so volatile that any fundamental behavior related to fiat economy is barely noticeable in short term.

I just read on Linkedin that the statement truly was written by an intern. After reading their announcement in the morning today, I was already thinking what kind of drunken imbecile would come up with that stuff. I hope someone can confirm that it was in intern so we can expose of how GS treat their customers with their knownledge sharing/opinion building schemes

Oh really.  Far from the truth you say.  So name one way in which GS can "manipulate" bitcoin.  Just one.

My response would be, let them try.  It would make me chuckle. (that is, any attempt to manipulate it will raise the price and fill me with glee)

Do not forget:  one must have bitcoin to dump bitcoin.  --- let that sink in a bit, and then try and come up with an easy way to manipulate bitcoin.

An intern? no, it's likely an official statement from them. Can you give the link from LinkedIn where you have read that reason? Articles published everywhere already said that it's them that betrayed bitcoin.

1. Goldman Sachs betrays bitcoin (https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2020/05/28/1590664497000/Goldman-Sachs-betrays-bitcoin-/)
2. Goldman Sachs Slams Bitcoin And Gold On Investor Call, Crypto Community Reacts (https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjessel/2020/05/28/goldman-sachs-slams-bitcoin-and-gold-on-investor-call-crypto-community-reacts/#456ba2ef230e)

they are trying so hard to deny the fact that bitcoin is growing and buy themselves more time. for now they will continue denying and rejecting bitcoin but soon they will make a 180 degree change and embrace it or maybe even create a shitcoin themselves and eventually be crushed and lose a lot of money exactly because of what they will have done.


i think you don't know what the word "pump" means :D
even in huge markets that only move a couple of percentages you can't consider the rise bitcoin recently had as a "pump". not to mention that even 30% rise is not surprising in bitcoin...

Strange that they never, ever seem to acknowledge that it does have qualities and usefulness that nothing else has and those same qualities will eventually contribute much more to its value than they are at the moment. Why does that conclusion never surface?

You can call the present market a shitshow and you'd largely be right but it seems very dim not to add that this is one phase on a totally uncharted journey and there's no way of knowing where it's going to end up. Some promising clues have been dropped all the same.

It's obvious that they are trying so hard to dismiss bitcoin's own merits in the field of fintech and investments. JP Morgan and Chase already did the same with the help of the mouth of Jamie Dimon, and it turns out that they themselves are secretly buying bitcoin. There's the slightest possibility that Goldman & Sachs is doing the same thing, although that may also be very unlikely considering how deep this firm is connected with some of the governments own 'business' dealings.

Anyway, G&S might be brewing their own digitized assets hence the recent attacks, but still, there's something off with the recent statement that it's really hard to tell whether they're sincere or not.

Looks like this has already been corrected. https://i.imgur.com/fFZF5Eq.png

I think you didn't get my sarcasm there.  ;D

Definition of Asset Class from Investopedia (https://www.investopedia.com/terms/a/assetclasses.asp):


Goldman Sachs might personally not like Bitcoin, they might be right that Bitcoin doesn't have all those properties that they like to see in investments, but there's absolutely no reason to say that it's not an asset class. Currency is an asset class too, anything is an asset class if it can be consistently used for investments.

We have to say our thanks to Goldman Sachs for giving us a free advertisement with the mass.  ;D

Sure it ain't nothing as they expected it.
Why bring it up now?
Are they losing money because the people are engaging in a different view of investing?

Also to conclude it for them.
Yes, it is not an investment, it is a currency.  ;)

They gave the advice tp their ckients and they obviously don't think that investinf in Bitcoin is vwry wise because of high risk and volatility. This might be the overall conclusion and yes, there is nothing wrong in that.
We are all aware, or at least we should be, the risk we take when investing in Bitcoin but for some reason we still don't like when this is said on the way that Goldman&Sachs put it.

But that's not true right.

The whales do manipulate it.
The possibility to control it occurs if you have more than 51% mining power.

Anyway, I got your point and what you are trying to say. Indeed Goldman and Sachs are behind what they can manipulate and not behind something which is actually worthy enough to change the entire future generation.

Any volatile currency is not something that would be considered an asset for sure , but with added assurance of price being up in a couple of years do makes a good point in holding them up for a long term.

Undoubtedly no one is asking you to risk your savings here , you can instead try short term trading or even short term investments here if you are unsure of the outcome.

Gold is something that does have a reputation plus it's place as an asset is undoubtedly stable , but at the same time it is highly regulated , you cannot even sell beyond a certain amount until and unless you are ready to show the receipt , plus if you buy online gold most sites have an assigned time period when you can sell those off .

Bitcoins on the other hand actually gives you real freedom. I do think sooner or later people will realize the importance of financial freedom. We might have a lot of money but at the same time the government's tracking , rules , restrictions , corruption does not make it seem like the money is actually ours. The value is dependent on the authorities and the Fiat is infact volatile too but highly controlled .

People need financial freedom, Bitcoins is something that is more like a Beta test about what they will do with it . Rather than disputing it as an asset , we should try and search about it's implications. If used correctly it does hold more value than any Gold and Fiat.

Exactly. I think people are reading a bit too much into an investment call. I love Bitcoin but I wouldn't recommend it at all if I were an investment advisor! I mean, sure, if you want to hedge a little bit, then maybe a tiny addition into a "high-risk" portfolio.

I think Sachs and others at least know insight into other assets but they cannot possibly know enough about Bitcoin to justify advising clients. So it's the right call for them.

I really don't give much attention to what some of these naysayers say about bitcoin though. They claim is dead and it's not worth investing in it but though nobody can prove it I am pretty sure these same guys have some amount of bitcoins stored with them.

They aren't aware that bitcoin can't be manipulated easily by anyone or any parties though.

In 2018 ago I still remember that they made a statement to support bitcoin in the order to they can manipulate bitcoin so as their business is safe.

But they can make it happens and try to compete bitcoin and make a bad statement about it. And honestly, the statement can't be able to make bitcoin slumped down and even its price just increased. According to some analyst, bitcoin could reach $12.000 in two months ahead, I can't wait to see that will happen but clearly it will make all competitor bitcoin surrender.

Unless there's a raging bubble on, which only comes around every few years, the price is easily manipulated by small groups. All it takes is one strong buy or sell to get everyone else to pile in after it.

Bitcoin the system itself is quite possibly beyond evil influence, the price is fair game much of the time. This market is filled with scared, twitchy kiddies ready to run into the muscular arms of anyone more bold than them.