Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Economics => Topic started by: crabby on June 17, 2020, 08:15:17 PM



Title: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: crabby on June 17, 2020, 08:15:17 PM
Hi Everyone!

I wanted to start a discussion on Bitcoin vs Cash inflation. This has been a hot topic for discussion in the last few years, so I wanted to create a thread here for everyone to share their thoughts.

To kick off the discussion, I just published a blog post that discusses some thoughts on the topic.

You can find the article here:

Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation - Which is Better? (https://blog.shrimpy.io/blog/bitcoin-vs-cash-inflation-which-is-better)

What do you think? What are other things to consider when evaluating Bitcoin and cash inflation?

Looking forward to the discussion!


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: jackg on June 18, 2020, 04:37:41 AM
Your article is quite nice, I'm not sure how much of this has been covered before though - probably most of it but it is pretty concise.

I was thinking, before reading your thread. When looking at inflation, the US and most of Europe is targeting 1.7% currency inflation and other countries wnd up with inflation at 8-20% so there's potential that bitcoin would act as an additional store of value for those people - especially since so many people outside the US hold the dollar (for some reason/world reserve currency) and some ciuntries trade with it too, bitcoin might be welcome to them.

I think even in a deflationary space, people will always chase the dragon. No one in a financial rat run who actively participates will want to give up their opportunity to do better than the status quo.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: mu_enrico on June 18, 2020, 04:58:52 AM
Skimmed the article, and it's good :thumbsup:

Anyways, since the discussion is about which is better, what do you think about the Gresham's "law":
- what makes money better?
- will the better money win?


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Ucy on June 18, 2020, 07:34:50 AM
Skimmed the article, and it's good :thumbsup:

Anyways, since the discussion is about which is better, what do you think about the Gresham's "law":
- what makes money better?
- will the better money win?

Grasham's "law" sounds interesting. 

It says:
Quote
In economics, Gresham's law is a monetary principle stating that "bad money drives out good". For example, if there are two forms of
commodity money in circulation, which are accepted by law as having similar face value, the more valuable commodity will gradually disappear from circulation.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law

Well, I think it will be hard for bad money to drive out the good in a well decentralized, safe and fair system if the right principles/rules/law governs both currencies uniformly and fairly



Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Tytanowy Janusz on June 20, 2020, 06:30:30 AM
Well, I think it will be hard for bad money to drive out the good in a well decentralized, safe and fair system if the right principles/rules/law governs both currencies uniformly and fairly

Its based on that - good money(deflationary) rewards you for saving it (your money value grows in time) while bad money (inflationary) rewards you for spending it as fast as possible. That way if you have both you always want to spend bad money first. In the end you are using bad money all the time while good one is stored nowhere safely. Bad money wins in mass adoption. Good one is stored only by few who can afford that.

But i thought that it's not 2017. We are not talking about bitcoin replacing fiat currencies any more. Its bitcoin as digital gold mania now.



Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Findingnemo on June 20, 2020, 06:56:21 AM
Bitcoin is going to be the better one, cash is losing value and keep losing it every year so people lost their trust in it. On the other hand bitcoin is growing technology and it is getting recognized recently for various reasons so time will let us know which is better to individuals.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: el kaka22 on June 20, 2020, 10:26:40 AM
Inflation property of our fiats should not be assumed bad because it serves its purposes of "spending" economy model. Inflation is here to make sure about continuous working economy rather than looking for profiting out of money. If governments do not continuously print money then you will save ONLY money and may never think about investing it into stocks/bonds/gold/real estates and etc. By making your money to get less-valued over the time, government pushes us to spend it to make sure free-slow of money rather than getting congested/stuck only at some percentage of people.

Bitcoin got deflation property to make it popular in short term to compete against centuries old fiats.

Bitcoin could be assumed to have implicit inflation property by its infinitely divisible nature.

As per some theory, infinitely divisible property = unlimited supply.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: o_e_l_e_o on June 20, 2020, 10:52:08 AM
Its based on that - good money(deflationary) rewards you for saving it (your money value grows in time) while bad money (inflationary) rewards you for spending it as fast as possible. That way if you have both you always want to spend bad money first. In the end you are using bad money all the time while good one is stored nowhere safely. Bad money wins in mass adoption. Good one is stored only by few who can afford that.
If we are applying Gresham's law, and saying that constantly devaluing fiat is the "bad" money, while deflationary bitcoin is the "good" money, then in the short term it does tend towards bitcoin being used more as a store of value than as a currency. If you look over the longer term, however, then Gresham's law tends to operate in reverse. As the bad fiat money becomes less and less valuable, although individuals will try to spend it as quickly as possible, vendors will be less likely to accept it, and prefer instead to accept the good money - which in this example is bitcoin. We've seen this kind of behavior (although with foreign fiat currencies rather than bitcoin as the "good" money) during times of hyperinflation, such as USD in Zimbabwe in 2007 through 2009.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: AniviaBtc on June 20, 2020, 01:46:12 PM
Bitcoin is going to be the better one, cash is losing value and keep losing it every year so people lost their trust in it. On the other hand bitcoin is growing technology and it is getting recognized recently for various reasons so time will let us know which is better to individuals.

Bitcoin is really much better because of its value that increase depending on the factors that affect the market situation. While in Cash inflation, it will just make the value of money to become lower due to the increase in the supply of money. We all know that if all of us have money, then its value will become useless because all of us can afford the things that we want. That's why Cash inflation is not the best option, it will just increase the price of the products, goods, including the stock market. Low inflation will bring huge advantage in stock market which is good for some investors. Bitcoin is volatile, but its increase in its price is much better than other options.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Tytanowy Janusz on June 20, 2020, 04:31:46 PM
As the bad fiat money becomes less and less valuable, although individuals will try to spend it as quickly as possible, vendors will be less likely to accept it, and prefer instead to accept the good money - which in this example is bitcoin. We've seen this kind of behavior (although with foreign fiat currencies rather than bitcoin as the "good" money) during times of hyperinflation, such as USD in Zimbabwe in 2007 through 2009.

Yes. This is extreme case that does not last long (1-2 years out of 30 years of gradual devaluation). Everything is better than your currency than - even gold from World of Warcraft (fiat exit for Venezuela when bitcoin was banned).
So my point is that Gresham's law works in shorter and longer term. It does not work only during monetary system reset (1-2 years of hyperinflation and denomination). After that people are back to fiat (bad money) hoping that things will not repeat.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: justdimin on June 20, 2020, 04:44:21 PM
There is really no "better" when it comes to currency, do not be mistaken just like dollars and euros, bitcoin is a currency and there is nothing better about it. In a perfect world there should be no currency, there should be no expense and there should be no costs. Humanity has all the resources it needs for everyone to live a great life without any trouble at all, both in agriculture but in technology as well.

There is enough power in the world to produce enough lambos for every single human who can drive a car, do you know the reason why there isn't one for all? Because, it would require manufacturing to be made by robots that takes "money" to be built, if everyone lived without money those robots would be built on free land and would produce lambo constantly all the time, new brand one every year.

It is not "technically impossible", it is quite possible, that is just one example, but money gives people power, the more money you have the more power you have and people who have that power and money do not want others to have the same, that is the only reason.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Tytanowy Janusz on June 20, 2020, 05:03:20 PM
There is really no "better" when it comes to currency, do not be mistaken just like dollars and euros, bitcoin is a currency and there is nothing better about it. In a perfect world there should be no currency, there should be no expense and there should be no costs. Humanity has all the resources it needs for everyone to live a great life without any trouble at all, both in agriculture but in technology as well.

There is enough power in the world to produce enough lambos for every single human who can drive a car, do you know the reason why there isn't one for all? Because, it would require manufacturing to be made by robots that takes "money" to be built, if everyone lived without money those robots would be built on free land and would produce lambo constantly all the time, new brand one every year.

It is not "technically impossible", it is quite possible, that is just one example, but money gives people power, the more money you have the more power you have and people who have that power and money do not want others to have the same, that is the only reason.

This is called communism and never work. Without money and people having irresistible desire to have more and more America would still not be discovered. Most technology we have (from internet to medicine) is made only because of greed. And there is no greed without money.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: o_e_l_e_o on June 20, 2020, 05:37:11 PM
After that people are back to fiat (bad money) hoping that things will not repeat.
Definitely in the past, but perhaps now with bitcoin there is an alternative.

The last major hyperinflation event that a major country went through was that of Zimbabwe. With ongoing hyperinflation despite multiple re-denominations, outlawing of foreign currency, pegging to the dollar, and so forth, many people now transact using US dollars. In this scenario, US dollars is the "good" money, while Zimbabwean RTGS dollars is the "bad" money. This all started back in 2007 before bitcoin existed.

The situation in Venezuela is ongoing, they too have tried the same failed strategies that Zimbabwe did, with the added one of trying to peg their fiat to a scam cryptocurrency called Petro. There are lots of alternative methods of payment being used, bitcoin included despite it being made illegal. Bolivar is definitely the "bad" money in this scenario.

Perhaps the next time there is a hyperinflation event, bitcoin will emerge as the dominant "good" currency for that country. Certainly it is the one I would be using, rather than taking the government's empty promises and one million to one re-denominated garbage.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: whyrqa on June 20, 2020, 06:20:23 PM
This is called communism and never work. Without money and people having irresistible desire to have more and more America would still not be discovered. Most technology we have (from internet to medicine) is made only because of greed. And there is no greed without money.
One interesting person once expressed his opinion that laziness is the engine of progress. An example is the remote control for the TV, which was apparently created by a person who was too lazy to get up from the couch and go to switch TV channels on the TV. Of course this is a ridiculous example, but nevertheless has a certain share of logic.
I would like to express my opinion about the state system, which, according to someone’s opinion, could be better, following the example of the communist or capitalist. the fact is that neither capitalism nor communism is present in any country in its purest form. in any case, there is a mixture and China is a clear example of such a political system.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Darker45 on June 21, 2020, 03:28:58 AM
I am wondering, based on your example, in times of a pandemic such as the one we're going through right now or in times when the economy is severely disrupted, if not with the printing of money out of thin air, is there any way we could possibly maintain liquidity and keep the economy floating?

In times when business operations are halted and people losing their jobs and therefore their money and purchasing capacity, too, is there any way a government could avoid injecting additional amount into the supply?

We have been criticizing this basic fiat feature which allows the Fed to signal the treasury to print money in any amount necessary. This is devaluing the money, bringing down its purchasing power, pushes prices of goods and services up, and so on.

However, all this is temporary. It is an emergency measure so to speak. It is not as if it is only all about cash inflation all the way. Cash is actually being inflated and deflated all the time, with the overall economy in mind. This feature allows any economy to weather through the hard times. This is something that shall never happen in an economy which is supported by a money which has strict and fixed rules hard-coded on a protocol.






Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Tytanowy Janusz on June 21, 2020, 05:00:38 AM
I am wondering, based on your example, in times of a pandemic such as the one we're going through right now or in times when the economy is severely disrupted, if not with the printing of money out of thin air, is there any way we could possibly maintain liquidity and keep the economy floating?

Yes. They could just let things go. The weakest company would sink good one would continue to work (and profit on reduced competition). Lockdown last 1-3 month (depending on country). If this is enough to destroy company maybe it wasn't strong enough? Maybe it was wrongly managed? Printing is simply taking money from you to those who leave on the edge of bankruptcy to give them extra year (in most cases). I wonder if people would be ok with that knowing that it is similar to taking 5% from your bank account and pure it into corporations.



Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: davis196 on June 21, 2020, 05:55:36 AM
Pretty nice article for the newbies to educate themselves about the nature of Bitcoin and some macroeconomic and financial terms.
I think that inflation kinda forces people to spend more NOW,because tomorrow their paper money will have less value,so inflation can boost spending and consumption.On the other hand,Bitcoin stimulates saving,hoarding and HODLing,because there's the constant hope that the Bitcoin price might go to the moon,so that's why the Bitcoin users aren't that comfortable spending their Bitcoins.
Cash inflation is better for the economy,because it boost spending and consumer behavior,while Bitcoin is better for the individuals,that make more money and want to save and invest in an financial asset,that has great potential to increase it's future value.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: bitgolden on June 21, 2020, 06:55:03 AM
Its based on that - good money(deflationary) rewards you for saving it (your money value grows in time) while bad money (inflationary) rewards you for spending it as fast as possible. That way if you have both you always want to spend bad money first. In the end you are using bad money all the time while good one is stored nowhere safely. Bad money wins in mass adoption. Good one is stored only by few who can afford that.
This cannot be an universal definition on what is good money and what is bad money just because of which is most rewarding you.

This must be an wrong assumption on fiat if you expect to get reward by storing it because fiat is NOT designed to reward you; you must work to earn it. (The interest you may get from fiats also will lose its value, hence even with interest gaining on fiats, it is still perfect with its basics).

You may work once and gain some fiat and then you will save it to reward you for your rest of life then you will call it good money? No system should support for being lazy. (Bitcoin rewards us because for the risk we are taking on holding it; still perfect as an asset).

A money should be inflationary so that it will lose value over the time if you try to store it. Only assets can be deflationary as it is meant for storing.

For example, if you store apple for a week, it will be decayed. You must eat when it is afresh. You must make use of fiats[1] before it lose its value. If you call bad because fiat lose its value then all apples are bad because it get rotten over the time.

[1] Making use of fiats can be investing it into any asset and that asset may reward for the risk you take.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: fiulpro on June 21, 2020, 07:03:13 AM
Hi Everyone!

I wanted to start a discussion on Bitcoin vs Cash inflation. This has been a hot topic for discussion in the last few years, so I wanted to create a thread here for everyone to share their thoughts.

To kick off the discussion, I just published a blog post that discusses some thoughts on the topic.

You can find the article here:

Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation - Which is Better? (https://blog.shrimpy.io/blog/bitcoin-vs-cash-inflation-which-is-better)

What do you think? What are other things to consider when evaluating Bitcoin and cash inflation?

Looking forward to the discussion!

Inflation: Increase in the price of certain goods and commodities.

Now I do think Inflation when it comes to Bitcoins is quite different. Inflation for us is apparently beneficial , beneficial for the holders for everyone. We can always use the SATOSHI or any smaller Currency it needed but I do think the same laws do not apply here.

____________________________________________________________
When it comes to inflation regarding the money and other commodities, it does reflect on economic situation of a country. There was a time when my mom told me she could but a bunch of stuff with 1/71th $ , like literally a bunch . Now I do think we know what we are dealing with .

It does directly shows the power of a nations currency.  Inflation is essentially bad for the economy, say for example you saved up 100$ years before , you won't get the same value now.

But then again a little inflation with regards to good interest rates for the people would mean that it is beneficial for the long run.



Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: o_e_l_e_o on June 21, 2020, 09:48:13 AM
However, all this is temporary. It is an emergency measure so to speak.
That's the problem though - it isn't temporary. Here's the Federal Reserve's balance sheet for the last 17 years (click for full size):

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?width=880&height=440&id=WALCL (https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/fredgraph.png?width=880&height=440&id=WALCL)

Pre-2008 crisis it was sitting at a fairly stead $800-900 billion for several years. 2008 financial crisis hits, and they rapidly print around $1.4 trillion to stabilize the economy. You could argue that needed to be done, which would be fine if they then undid those changes at a later date. Instead, during the next 10 years, instead of slowly removing that $1.4 trillion, they continue to print more and more, devaluing the dollar more and more, and their balance sheet reaches a record level of $4.5 trillion. Finally, 11 years later in 2019, they think about starting to reduce their balance sheet, until COVID hits and they print almost $4 trillion in the space of a few weeks.

If it took them 11 years to start reducing their balance sheet following the 2008 crash, how much longer do you think it will take following this crash? Not to mention they probably aren't even finished printing for this crash yet. There will be another crisis, and another, and another, all before they even begin to undo these changes, let alone get their balance sheet back down to "normal" levels. The printing will never end. The dollar value will never stop falling. This isn't temporary - this is normal.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: danherbias07 on June 21, 2020, 01:13:21 PM
Thanks for sharing your article.
It's easy to understand.
Bitcoin is still better for me, but we still rely on traditional fiat which is a necessity. So, there isn't much of a choice yet.  ;D
Do you mind if I share your article to some social media platform? Just to enlighten some people which are still having some questions about inflation.



Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Latviand on June 21, 2020, 01:53:03 PM
Bitcoin is going to be the better one, cash is losing value and keep losing it every year so people lost their trust in it. On the other hand bitcoin is growing technology and it is getting recognized recently for various reasons so time will let us know which is better to individuals.

If you think about the bitcoin's future, it is really the most effective to choose as its value depends on the factors that are related to the advancement of our technology. We are engaging into a more digitize money which is easy to use using our gadgets in many transactions that we will do.

Bitcoin is one of the best creations that can last up to so many years, as this cryptocurrency has a lot of potential to grow more and become the cryptocurrency with a highest value in the market.
Right now, we are still under recession and that can contribute to the value of bitcoin, some businesses are still unable to operate because of the huge increase in the number of infected cases of this pandemic.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: fullhdpixel on June 21, 2020, 07:02:43 PM
-sniped-
It is not going to be temporary but it is not going to be forever neither. Why it can't be temporary?

Because, there is a crash every once in a while and recovering takes a long time and when that recovery is finally getting over there is another one and another one and it continues like that, so in theory one printing is temporary and inflation is temporary, if there is no more crash ever again there won't be any more inflation and we would have a great economy that has never seen before, economy is something that would grow and be awesome without crashes. Why it is not forever?

Because crashes can't happen forever, we can't continue to have crashes every once in a while and still survive, enough people get affected by the crashes that corporations will be looked at as the guilty eventually and there will be a government where its filled with people who got affected by these and will stop giving them bail outs, may take a long time but will happen.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: o_e_l_e_o on June 21, 2020, 07:39:22 PM
Because crashes can't happen forever
Says who? They've been happening regularly for the last 200 years, and they are showing no signs of slowing down. Currently the COVID crash (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_recession). Before that 2008 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_crisis_of_2007%E2%80%932008). Before that 2001 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recession_2000s). Before that 1990 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1990s_recession). Before that 1980 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_1980s_recession). Before that 1973 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973%E2%80%931975_recession). And so on.

Recessions are a normal part of the economy. There can't be positive growth at all times, forever. What isn't normal is our reaction to these recessions - devaluing our currency and pumping trillions of dollars of new money in to the system which will never be removed.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Darker45 on June 22, 2020, 03:00:38 AM
I am wondering, based on your example, in times of a pandemic such as the one we're going through right now or in times when the economy is severely disrupted, if not with the printing of money out of thin air, is there any way we could possibly maintain liquidity and keep the economy floating?

Yes. They could just let things go. The weakest company would sink good one would continue to work (and profit on reduced competition). Lockdown last 1-3 month (depending on country). If this is enough to destroy company maybe it wasn't strong enough? Maybe it was wrongly managed? Printing is simply taking money from you to those who leave on the edge of bankruptcy to give them extra year (in most cases). I wonder if people would be ok with that knowing that it is similar to taking 5% from your bank account and pure it into corporations.

You are speaking as if, in a pandemic, a company dies due to a healthy competition, or due to not being able to keep up with the latest technologies, or due to not being run well, and so on. It is certainly not the case. The case is that these companies are not allowed to operate. Hotels, casinos, resorts, airlines, shipping lines, restaurants, shopping centers, and even manufacturing companies are closed.

While there must be something wrong with how the monetary injections are being spent, a government for the people cannot just allow all these companies to freely sink just like that. That would mean incredibly high unemployment rate, loss of vital services, huge tax loss, and so on. All these would mean public chaos in due time.

However, all this is temporary. It is an emergency measure so to speak.
That's the problem though - it isn't temporary. Here's the Federal Reserve's balance sheet for the last 17 years (click for full size):

What I'm trying to say is that it is not everyday that the Fed is printing billions. I mean, the monetary mechanisms, although most probably abused, are there for dire times. I cannot imagine how the economy would fare out in a severe crisis without all this, say, in a Bitcoin-run economy.

For sure, the economic recovery from the previous crisis has been too slow. And, yes, the process of pulling out money from thin air into thin air is too slow as well that the next crisis was able to catch up and turned the entire process around. There is definitely a lot of improvement needed in that area considering that the next crisis is just around the corner.

Well, on a side note, talks of the US dollar losing value have been around for many decades. Notwithstanding the devalued dollar, however, I'm pretty sure you can still buy a burger with a couple of bucks.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: solomine on June 22, 2020, 06:37:28 AM
Fiat and cryptocurrencies complement each other. One cannot do what the other can. The combination of fiat and crypt in our life can help to achieve better results than it would be if you chose only one side. Cryptocurrency has adopted a lot from fiat, but fiat has now begun to connect to this race. So you can use traditional cryptocurrency tools now. For example, a bank card with the ability to exchange for cryptocurrency. I am using gekkard now. We must use these bridges between the two worlds of finance!


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Mauser on June 22, 2020, 07:08:37 AM
Fiat and cryptocurrencies complement each other. One cannot do what the other can. The combination of fiat and crypt in our life can help to achieve better results than it would be if you chose only one side. Cryptocurrency has adopted a lot from fiat, but fiat has now begun to connect to this race. So you can use traditional cryptocurrency tools now. For example, a bank card with the ability to exchange for cryptocurrency. I am using gekkard now. We must use these bridges between the two worlds of finance!

I agree, a country without any FIAT currency will be having a very hard time during crisis when it's only relying on crypto currencies. Controlling the money supply is the standard tool for central banks for decades to fight financial crisis. Without a tool like that the countries might experience much stronger financial crisis than before.

Also we still have many old people without knowledge of crypto currencies and many people are lacking access to the internet. It will still take generations to get mankind ready to swtich to crypto currencies alone.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: o_e_l_e_o on June 22, 2020, 08:25:00 AM
What I'm trying to say is that it is not everyday that the Fed is printing billions. I mean, the monetary mechanisms, although most probably abused, are there for dire times.
Sure, they aren't printing every day (and if they were, the dollar truly would be worthless), but they are printing enough and never undoing the changes. They also aren't only printing during dire times. 2013/2014 was actually a pretty good year for the economy, certainly no major financial crisis like 2008 or like now, and yet as you can see from the graph the Fed printed another $1.5 trillion.

There is definitely a lot of improvement needed in that area considering that the next crisis is just around the corner.
The problem is that there is no will to improve.

Well, on a side note, talks of the US dollar losing value have been around for many decades. Notwithstanding the devalued dollar, however, I'm pretty sure you can still buy a burger with a couple of bucks.
That's a silly argument, no offense. Burgers seem cheap because burgers are cheaper, and you are accustomed to the cost of the burger being what it is.

The dollar is losing value constantly. It's lost over 90% of it's value since 1950. That's a single lifetime. Are you happy with only being able to pass 10% of everything you own on to your children as inheritance and the state taking the rest? I'm old enough to remember when burgers cost 50 cents. Back then, $3 or $4 for a burger would seem outrageous, just like $20 for a burger seems outrageous today. But in a few short decades, that will be what burgers cost.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Darker45 on June 22, 2020, 02:48:41 PM
Well, on a side note, talks of the US dollar losing value have been around for many decades. Notwithstanding the devalued dollar, however, I'm pretty sure you can still buy a burger with a couple of bucks.
That's a silly argument, no offense. Burgers seem cheap because burgers are cheaper, and you are accustomed to the cost of the burger being what it is.

My point is that despite the recurring talks and criticisms of how the USD is being continuously devalued or even desecrated as a currency by the monetary policies and decisions of the people up there, it remains true that even a tiny and seemingly insignificant amount which people can easily toss around can still provide you a decent food.

Quote
The dollar is losing value constantly. It's lost over 90% of it's value since 1950. That's a single lifetime. Are you happy with only being able to pass 10% of everything you own on to your children as inheritance and the state taking the rest? I'm old enough to remember when burgers cost 50 cents. Back then, $3 or $4 for a burger would seem outrageous, just like $20 for a burger seems outrageous today. But in a few short decades, that will be what burgers cost.

Losing value is an integral feature of any currency. Fiat is designed to be so. Therefore, it is not fiat's fault if parents would keep cash as inheritance.

Consequently, it is also by design that goods and services will also increase in price over time. But that does not mean that an ordinary person or family has also lost its purchasing capacity due to the increasing prices. Because along with it is also the increase of its income. If the increase in prices means that a person is losing one meal a day, then that's the inflation that is way out of hand. Otherwise, it could just be the preferred inflation.

So, if the USD is losing 90% of its value since 1950, I would also assume that people's usual salary has also increase around 90% since then.

P.S.: Pardon me if I may be speaking out of touch of the US economic reality. I haven't been there nor have I studied thoroughly its economy, but I'm a bit sure, however, that the US economy is largely founded upon consumer spending. It is consumerism that accounts around 70% of the economy. This simply means that the huge majority of the people out there has the capacity to spend and spend and spend.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: o_e_l_e_o on June 22, 2020, 03:40:14 PM
it remains true that even a tiny and seemingly insignificant amount which people can easily toss around can still provide you a decent food.
Over 12% of Americans are living in poverty. It certainly isn't a tiny or insignificant amount to them.

Regardless of how you look at it, $4 is a significant increase from 50 cents. Given that that is a 700% increase, will you be saying the same thing when an average burger costs $32?

So, if the USD is losing 90% of its value since 1950, I would also assume that people's usual salary has also increase around 90% since then.
That's not how percentages work. Let's say a burger costs $1, and I have a monthly salary of $1,000 (to keep things simple). I can buy 1,000 burgers. If USD loses 90% of its value, then I can only buy 10% as much as I could before. My $1,000 will now buy 100 burgers at $10 each. For things to stay even, I don't need a wage increase of 90% (which would give me $1,900 and 190 burgers at $10 each), I need a wage increase of 900%, which would give me $10,000 and 1,000 burgers at $10 each).

Sure, wages have gone up, but prices have gone up more. In 1950, average household income was $3,000, and in 2010 it was $49,000. That's an increase of 16 times. Now, take a look at some of the costs of living.
Average house price - $7,000 in 1950, $273,000 in 2010. An increase of 39 times. Average car price - $1,500 to $35,000. An increase of 23 times. New York subway single ride - from $0.10 to 2.75. An increase of 27 times. The average family has significantly less purchasing power than they did a generation ago.

P.S.: Pardon me if I may be speaking out of touch of the US economic reality.
Although we are talking about the US here, the exact same situation is applicable to any western country.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Darker45 on June 23, 2020, 02:02:51 PM
it remains true that even a tiny and seemingly insignificant amount which people can easily toss around can still provide you a decent food.
Over 12% of Americans are living in poverty. It certainly isn't a tiny or insignificant amount to them.

Poverty is a handy word. Even in the world's richest countries per capita, there is poverty.

Correct me on this if I'm wrong but I would say that the face of poverty in the US is rather pretty.

Certainly, millions fall below poverty line but that line is quite high.

Quote
So, if the USD is losing 90% of its value since 1950, I would also assume that people's usual salary has also increase around 90% since then.
That's not how percentages work....

...The average family has significantly less purchasing power than they did a generation ago.

That's correct. I was wrong about that percentage thing. I should have meant x rather than %. I was trying to say that if the prices of goods rise 90x, or the purchasing power of the currency is down 90x, the disposable money must have also risen around 90x. Apparently, a lot of things have to be factored in so that the result is not in perfect accordance with the intended target or design.

But the increase of the prices of goods and services is not just brought or influenced by monetary inflation. You cannot point all the blaming fingers to it. As a matter of fact, I would say it plays a relatively minor role. Goods and services become more costly over time primarily due to the rising demand and supply shortage, which are of course most often intertwined.

I would even go as far as saying that even if the money printing was done at the minimum or most reasonable level, the prices of goods and services would still have increased at around the same rate.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Petryakov on June 23, 2020, 09:48:10 PM
I don't think that there is any controversy about Bitcoin being a better asset for value storage than cash. In fact, cash supply nowadays is deliberately configured so that it’s better to use other assets as a value storage. Otherwise, we can get high fluctuations of velocity, which will result in volatile prices.

That is the reason why fiat cash cannot compete with Bitcoin in terms of value storage, and that is why Bitcoin cannot compete with cash in terms of being a medium of exchange. The limited supply is one of the reasons why Bitcoin can never become a currency, which I explained in my recent post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5254751.0).


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Petryakov on June 23, 2020, 09:50:38 PM
Skimmed the article, and it's good :thumbsup:

Anyways, since the discussion is about which is better, what do you think about the Gresham's "law":
- what makes money better?
- will the better money win?

I explained this in my recent post here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5254751.0) Bitcoin is better from the point of view of consumers, but Gresham's law won't work.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Petryakov on June 23, 2020, 10:02:59 PM
Its based on that - good money(deflationary) rewards you for saving it (your money value grows in time) while bad money (inflationary) rewards you for spending it as fast as possible. That way if you have both you always want to spend bad money first. In the end you are using bad money all the time while good one is stored nowhere safely. Bad money wins in mass adoption. Good one is stored only by few who can afford that.

But i thought that it's not 2017. We are not talking about bitcoin replacing fiat currencies any more. Its bitcoin as digital gold mania now.



Graham's law works only with commodity money, and only given that the price of both good and bad money can be set exogenously. With regards to Bitcoin, it won't work: in the case of mass adoption Bitcoin will destroy fiat money and its more of a Thiers' law, rather than Gresham's.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Leviathan.007 on June 24, 2020, 08:06:10 AM
The one benefit you can get over the Bitcoin is none can ever print and create new bitcoins over the 21 million total supply. This is what we do need in the word, actually one reason for the inflation is the banks printing money by the governments and they don't need to explain about it. Everyday, billions of euros and dollars are getting printed and due the rise of supply the currency will lose it price over the time. Bitcoin is trusted to have a fixed total supply and in my own idea. soon, the traditional banks should change their fiat currency into bitcoin. In the other hand, after the crisis in the world like the Covid-19 bitcoin can be the life saver over the inflation after crisis.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Krabby on June 24, 2020, 08:31:53 AM
In my opinion, it is up to each person. To me, fiat money is still better because it doesn't fluctuate too much. As for holding bitcoin, we may face a 5 or 10 split account if the bitcoin price drops sharply. It's not a stable asset, so I would never choose bitcoin. Although fiat money has inflation, that number is needed for people to try harder at work to get a raise.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: btc78 on June 24, 2020, 10:51:07 AM
I don't think that there is any controversy about Bitcoin being a better asset for value storage than cash. In fact, cash supply nowadays is deliberately configured so that it’s better to use other assets as a value storage. Otherwise, we can get high fluctuations of velocity, which will result in volatile prices.
There are no controversy here but the question about inflation in which Bitcoin using is more advisable than Fiat.
and Yeah Bitcoin is much better than fiat specially if you are willing to store the amount for long time as a Hodler.

Quote
That is the reason why fiat cash cannot compete with Bitcoin in terms of value storage, and that is why Bitcoin cannot compete with cash in terms of being a medium of exchange. The limited supply is one of the reasons why Bitcoin can never become a currency, which I explained in my recent post (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5254751.0).

We have proven why Bitcoin is our choice compared to Fiat specially in banking our money with stupid dividend
 while in Bitcoin if lucky then our money can be multiplied by 2-5 depend on
 how the market goes.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Tytanowy Janusz on June 27, 2020, 06:50:38 AM
You are speaking as if, in a pandemic, a company dies due to a healthy competition, or due to not being able to keep up with the latest technologies, or due to not being run well, and so on. It is certainly not the case. The case is that these companies are not allowed to operate. Hotels, casinos, resorts, airlines, shipping lines, restaurants, shopping centers, and even manufacturing companies are closed.

2 months without income should not kill a well managed company. No matte what is the case. If we let strong survive and weak bankrupt than we could start building on the ashes when demand will show profit in a given sector of the economy. There is no need to hold in life companies that might (or might not) be useful in next few months/years. What if f.e Hotels won't be profitable for next 5 years?

https://i.imgur.com/gNo9DNP.png

We are now outside covid season. What if we will see second wave in December? Guy who could bankrupt with 100 000 in debt will bankrupt with 1 000 000 in debt and this will be final score of cheap loans. Let economy grow in a health manner. If there is demand on something there should be company doing that. If there is no demand on something there should be no one doing it. 100-200 years ago Hotel would change clothes and become kindergarten or something else. Today it get free loan to continue using money in ineffective way going deeper and deeper into debt.


What I'm trying to say is that it is not everyday that the Fed is printing billions. I mean, the monetary mechanisms, although most probably abused, are there for dire times. I cannot imagine how the economy would fare out in a severe crisis without all this, say, in a Bitcoin-run economy.

We had gold standard before 1971 so you basically can't imagine how people leave 50 years ago? What happened after 1971?

https://i.imgur.com/VjPtmFb.png

https://i.imgur.com/haZGLES.png

https://i.imgur.com/p5avtdB.png

https://i.imgur.com/TfL87VQ.png
source of all (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzTWupAWMc8)

Don't think that this is done to help the poor and needy

Sure, wages have gone up, but prices have gone up more.

The biggest inflation fault is that you are doomed to work till the end of your life. You can't be a smart 20 yo guy who earned 1 mln and retired. You have to work all the time because all your saving are secretly stolen by devaluating them. Your money are not yours. You have to spend them on useless shit (stimulating the economy in the wrong direction) and continue to work. You have to buy a flat that you dont need (China Has 65 Million Empty Apartments) (https://247wallst.com/economy/2019/01/08/china-has-65-million-empty-apartments/) just to put your money somewhere. You need to buy gold that you dont need. You need to buy someone debt and so on. To simply not be robbed by inflation.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: o_e_l_e_o on June 27, 2020, 08:18:51 AM
Certainly, millions fall below poverty line but that line is quite high.
Sure, but the fact remains that the lowest income workers have seen the most wage stagnation or real terms decrease, while those at the top see the biggest real terms increase. The gap between rich and poor is widening, not narrowing.

To me, fiat money is still better because it doesn't fluctuate too much.
I mean, you are half right. If you zoom out and look at years rather than days, then yes, fiat generally doesn't fluctuate up and down that much - it just continues its constant and steady race to the bottom.

You have to work all the time because all your saving are secretly stolen by devaluating them.
That's it exactly. Because of the constant money printing, the constant inflation, the constant devaluation, it's not enough to just "have" fiat. You have to spend a great deal of time (or a good chunk of fiat to pay someone else to do it for you) balancing investments, assessing risks, opening and closing accounts and portfolios, moving fiat around, etc., always trying to beat inflation. And even then, sometimes you are lucky just to break even.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Tytanowy Janusz on June 28, 2020, 02:33:16 PM
That's it exactly. Because of the constant money printing, the constant inflation, the constant devaluation, it's not enough to just "have" fiat. You have to spend a great deal of time (or a good chunk of fiat to pay someone else to do it for you) balancing investments, assessing risks, opening and closing accounts and portfolios, moving fiat around, etc., always trying to beat inflation. And even then, sometimes you are lucky just to break even.

And this in most cases stimulates economy in wrong direction - there is demand on goods where it should not be. So money does not work efficient and people do not work efficient for long term economy grow. There is the mass of hidden flaws in this system despite all those visible at first look.

About inflation. People very often compare bitcoin and fiat inflation 1:1. While bitcoin inflation is an amount of newly minted bitcoins devided by amount of bitcoins in circulation while fiat inflation is calculated from price changes ([new fiat supply - vanished/lost fiat supply] / amount of goods (economy grow)). If we tried to calculate bitcoin inflation that way we will most like come to the conclusion that bitcoin is deflationary and most likely was deflationary even before halving.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: Liplets on June 28, 2020, 06:11:01 PM
Only individuals in countries that suffer from a lot of economic problems and whose governments start printing more money will feel it so that they can pay salaries and the rest of the basic services.
These citizens will feel the difference in bitcoin prices because the price will differ from the dollar and will differ from the local currency.
The effect of the change in the price of the dollar on the local currency and the recovery of Bitcoin price will make them rich due to the exchange rate differences.


Title: Re: Bitcoin vs. Cash Inflation — A discussion on which is better
Post by: imons on June 29, 2020, 12:37:59 PM
Only individuals in countries that suffer from a lot of economic problems and whose governments start printing more money will feel it so that they can pay salaries and the rest of the basic services.
These citizens will feel the difference in bitcoin prices because the price will differ from the dollar and will differ from the local currency.
The effect of the change in the price of the dollar on the local currency and the recovery of Bitcoin price will make them rich due to the exchange rate differences.
Unfortunately it is true. And even more sad that most of world economy is based upon a USD, so while us gov prints more usd to help US citizens - it kills value for anyone who is not US citizen