Bitcoin Forum

Nowadays, I noticed there can still be privacy while using bitcoin for any purpose, but many people do not even know anything about crypto privacy, all they know is to use bitcoin.

Could you believe some people do not even know what wallet is?
I have seen some people not knowing what bitcoin wallets are. If you asked them what is bitcoin wallet? They will answer saying 'bitcoin wallets are the device for saving bitcoin'. This is actually wrong.

If you asked them example of bitcoin or crypto wallets?
They will answer listing binance, bitfinex, Kucoin, bittrex, yobit, trust wallet, coinbase, freewallet etc. Wrong answers.

Please are these wallets?
They only list common custodial wallets and exchanges, and infact some of the exchanges have been hacked before. How can someone that do not know what an exchanges are know what wallets are, all what they know is that bitcoin is stored in wallets and binance is an example. There are wrong.

Ignorance is the key to the reasons these type of people are scammed and lack privacy
This is clear, I believe you will agree with me, if they are not ignorant, they will know about p2p exchanges, noncustodial wallets and how to make sure their privacy is not affect.

P2P exchanges are the best
People need to educate themselves all about crypto before even starting to use one at all. I noticed there is still privacy in crypto but ignorant users that called binance a wallet do not even know what privacy is, registering on exchanges with stringent verifications, this is not right. I will tell them to always learn and know how to use p2p exchanges which require no verification, that is why I will always like p2p exchanges.

Using only wallets that connect you to blockchain is safest
Using wallets that require email or private key is not best at all, I remember when Satoshi created bitcoin core wallet, it has private keys, and if difficult to use for a start there are still many wallets that follow the rules of privacy like hardware wallets, if expensive there are still wallets that cost nothing than downing their software on phones and computers that follow the rules of privacy unlike third party wallet which has no privacy. I can not use third party wallets, not possible.

Revealing your privacy makes your fund not to be private, also never use kyc payment methods
If I have conbase, and I use credit card or other payment method that have enough identity of me, my privacy is completely lost in connection to the bitcoin I bought with the card and also in connection to the wallet I used. Very possible this can be used to track any wallet or exchange I send the coins to. That is why I like p2p exchange.


The use of bitcoin ATM, best way to 100% privacy
I suggested another idea below how privacy can be 100% but I will like people to talk about this, I think with bictoin ATM for depositing bitcoin into blockchain through keys in wallets, I think this is a good idea to 100% privacy as p2p exchange may not be sufficient. P2P may not lead to 100% privacy.

I want to ask you a question, I will like your answers

1. Is my opinion right about privacy?

2. Is it possible hackers can become a thief as technology is advancing or even now, know your custodial wallet or exchange and use the custodial wallet or exchange to know who exactly you are, come to your house one day just to come and forcefully steal your bitcoin? To me it is possible and I will always like privacy.

3. What is the best way to privacy? I will choose bitcoin ATMs

There are probably lots of differences of opinion, I have 2 separate wallets for example: one for funds I buy from kycd exchanges and ones from elsewhere...

I don't know about the trust of p2p exchanges yer, how do you verify a banking transaction?. There are ways to improve privacy but I doubt you'll ever have full privacy anywhere... Bisq is quite secure for example but a person has to verify a bank transaction and I don't know how prone that could be to social engineering.

You are right, but what about using bitcoin ATM, I will add it to it, with bitcoin ATM privacy can still be 100%. But, there is no much bitcoin ATM for now but their number is drastically increasing.

The average number of people using bitcoin neber bother about privacy. They use CEX with KYC verified accounts. They use custodial wallets for storing their BTC. To them, privacy concern is way more low. Without the average number of people, BTC won't be getting the adoption its dreaming to.
Not being concerned about privacy isn't a big deal for everyone.

Imo, you have conveyed all of that correctly. Most of my friends (who do not care about privacy), still think that storing their assets in exchange walllet are still considered quite safe. And the worse part, they do not care (or doesn't care) about this motto "Do not have your own private key, meaning you do not have the money".

Some people still think that large exchanges such as binance, coinbase, etc., are still a safe place to store their assets. Education like this is what should be often echoed, not justabout profit or low fees when doing some transactions.

1. You are right about privacy, but to fully maintain 100% privacy seem almost impossible, while using p2p exchnges, you will still need to register your account number on most exchanges or means you will use for the payment.

If through meeting people is another p2p, so far the person know you, it is not private again. I am not diluting the fact that p2p exchnges are excellent but I will prefer using crypto atms.

While using crypto atms, no camera like bank atms to video, your transaction is so private and I will also suggest it to be the best.

2. There is nothing impossible, and that aside, this can subsequently leads to phishing attacks be it through email or impersonation.

3. Like you have suggested, bitcoin atm is the best but only few are available in the world for now.

Unless you have a technical problem and need to give them your name/mobile number... I was thinking about an atm and then remembered they're only in our major cities here (I think there's quite a lot in the UK anyway) but you can still be tracked more traditionally through things such as cctvs and if you make a purchase via a card for example in the same store then they might be able to work out who you are...

(I'm also fairly sure a surcharge is added but it definitely seems quite private)...

I do not care much about crypto privacy, the reason is that I have little amount. The more the amount of bitcoin you having the more the privacy should be increasing because the more hackers will be likely willing to trace your transactions and looking for ways to steal from you.

In that case, crypto atm will be a good option but thinking privacy can not be 100%, I do not think this is possible because it is not even advisable to use crypto atm for transactions that are high, I can not want to deposit 1 million dollars and use crypto atm, it is even dangerous to take such amoint of money to crypto ATM, the best for these are still OTC. So, if we take deep look into this, we will notice privacy can not be 100%.

Did you know, people who are really rich will treat their money (investment) in same way. The way they treat their cents is more/less the same when they treat their large amounts of money. its all about behavior.
Same as humble leader. They will treat persons equal.

Well, you have a point here. Perhaps people understand that the crypto and privacy itself aren't much important as long as they did not have any illegal activities. Privacy is not the important because bitcoin transactions can be tracked but not directly to the person where the bitcoin comes from.
Indeed, --if you notice that most traders prefer to use CEX than DEX even they know that there is a KYC verification on CEX. Because they have nothing to hide to care their privacy.

Privacy is very important but I don't agree with you about ATMs being 100% private. They are placed in public spots for a reason. Try to find an ATM that isn't watched by cameras and doesn't scan your ID and you'll see that it's not easy.

It's very possible that some people will find out about your coins through hacks or database leaks but it's the same with cash. When you pay a lot with cash there's a chance someone will tell a group of his criminal friends where you live or the plates of your car and they'll track you down and break into your house.

They are placed in public place makes it dangerous too but about the camera, bit coin ATMs do not come with camera.

When you do KYC on a particular platform at least once in your life, there is a possibility that it will be compromised someday so there is no such thing that is 100% privacy, even p2p the platform sometimes requires you important details. As you said bitcoin ATM is the best choice but there are only few of them, We have bitcoin ATM in my country but only on capital city which is unfortunate. ATM has a camera on it so your privacy is still not secured.

Even if you have the full authority of private keys in your hand and as long as you are trusting your bitcoin transaction to nodes owned by the wallet manufacturer or to the people behind that non-custodial wallet, privacy is still not guaranteed simply because the people behind those wallet can manage to bind your bitcoin address to your IP Address. Therefore, running your full node (https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Full_node) might be the best option if you want to take advantage of increasing your privacy.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5260058.0 most of the answer within this thread will give you an idea on how to achieve optimun privacy.

I can't vouch most of them since I am still at the experimentation stage on how to achieve or improve my privacy as well.

I am not surprised. Some 5 years ago I've met people thinking that Internet Explorer is the internet (!).
Back to Bitcoin, while the technology, blockchain, transaction processing, lightning and so on are advancing nicely, the education part is two steps behind.

People don't know what's a wallet, don't understand that the wallet doesn't actually hold the coins, don't know about the problems of custodial so-called wallets, don't know that being careless may cost them, don't know how to properly use a wallet, what's a transaction, how to adjust the fee, what is the problem with the small inputs, the confirmations and the fact that 0 confirmations can be tricky... and so on.
Learning to care about their privacy, as you see, is not even on the first list of things they are missing.

I guess that educating people would necessary, but people are usually lazy about reading and may do that only after they've done something really wrong. Also for whatever reason they may miss the correct info or not trust it. (keep in mind that many still start their search for Bitcoin from bcash website)

Most ATMs actually have cameras and are strategically placed so that they can both capture your face and QR codes at the same time. If you want privacy using an ATM, that means following a non-tracked way (streets without cameras) to the ATM with enough stuff on your face to cover your facial features. And I am quite sure that would trigger a KYC especially as some ATM chains verify txs live with the help of a human being.

To me, you don't have to call 100% privacy no matter what that method is. Maybe all that matters is how secure it is. You are right that many of you can actually encounter on social media without knowing too much about privacy. They will be giving their identity to untrusted platforms as long as the talk is about investments and income. They then said that they did not want to or that the police did not come to their house because of identity theft.

This is the wrong attitude. Once you've let your privacy slip, it is very difficult if not impossible reclaim it. Further, privacy in bitcoin is about a lot more than worrying about someone stealing from you. It's about the freedom to do what you want with your own money without a government or third party sticking their nose in, deciding you aren't allowed, and dictating what you can and cannot do. Everyone should care about their privacy from their first satoshi.

The "nothing to hide" argument is complete nonsense. If you haven't done anything illegal and have nothing to hide, then please post your real name, real address, social media profiles, email addresses, passwords, and all your bitcoin and altcoin addresses. After all, you've got nothing to hide, right?

Bitcoin ATMs in several countries from what I know also requires KYC verification from the user before they can actually buy it, from what I recall there was a topic about Finland recently requiring Bitcoin ATMs to have KYC verification for their customers. So I don't think any kind of services where it is centralized can make you achieve the privacy you are expecting even P2P services like Localbitcoin as well also requires KYC. So the best way for you to buy and sell cryptocurrency is direct P2P with escrow where no one asks for IDs or any kind of personal information from you to make that trade happen.

1) Every wallet has private keys. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to sign transactions
2) Using a desktop wallet does not guarantee you privacy (e.g. electrum: the server you are connected to knows all of your addresses, your balance and your IP address. This makes it extremely easy to track you).
3) Hardware wallets are just the hardware. You still need software as an interface. If you are using wallets like trezors web interface, ledger live or electrum, your privacy is not existent.




Not necessarily.
You could easily mix the coins by either using a mixer or coinjoin.

This will break any link between your original coins (tied to your identity) and the coins you later have in your wallet (which you will spend).




You never get 100% privacy.
Privacy can't be measured in percentage. You always have to include the anonymity set when talking about privacy.

With an ATM where cameras are directed at you and required KYC for amounts larger than X (like a few hundred $?) and where people can observe you while using them, i wouldn't call that privacy.

In past was easy to get bitcoin and not link your identity to the coins. Nowadays is much harder and it all looks in future it will be close to impossible. Bitcoin and private simply have little in common. People in countries where privacy is tradition will avoid using Bitcoin. People in countries where privacy is not tradition will widely use Bitcoin in the future.

Nonsense. As someone who only ever buys and sells bitcoin without linking the trades to my real identity, and refuses to use centralized exchanges or complete KYC at all, it is much easier to trade privately than it was a few years ago. There are more options for buying bitcoin privately than there ever have been before, such as Bisq, Hodl Hodl, LocalCryptos, this forum, direct peer-to-peer trades, some ATMs which don't require KYC, physical shops and vendors, and so on. These kind of services are only becoming more popular as time goes on, as more people wake up and start to realize why their privacy is important. As long as bitcoin exists, there will exist decentralized trading options which cannot be shut down by governments or third parties.

The interesting part is buying and selling with a linked real identity on a centralized exchange, without any possibility to link those trades and coins.
The cryptography we have available (e.g. blind- and ring signatures) is enough to keep us anonymous (i.e. using coinjoin) without any link between 2 transactions.

Privacy isn't only a matter of not giving out private and sensitive information, but breaking the link between transactions of which the counterparty has some information which could be assembled to create a detailed and sensitive profile.

We made huge steps in terms of privacy through cryptography in the last few years.

You also can't blame other users for why they are under KYC. You cannot convert your crypto to fiat without the help of third-party apps services that require your Identity information. We know that people have different purposes when it comes to using crypto. Others consider crypto as a currency as a fiat that they can only say is worth it when it is spent. Not all items can be purchased using crypto due to the limited merchants receiving payments using it. Although online merchants that already adopt crypto are also centralized, you can rarely find a fully decentralized so there is really no other choice but to get KYC to make the most of your crypto.

Did you check what o_e_l_e_o posted above, you can check it below.
I am very sure bitcoin atm can be used to completely buy or sell without any identity given or noticed. I am not sure of p2p exchanges but with what o_e_l_e_o explained, there are p2p that do not make use of identity for buying and selling of bitcoin.

In a short way to understand, a third party exchange which holds the fund each party to execute trade safely. It's a sort of escrow between the buyer and seller which is a good transaction for those who want privacy and the P2P exchange will earn through the fee they were collected from both parties.

Aside from P2P exchange, there is also local P2P trading, it can hide your identity but it is risky of being robbed after the transaction done. There could be sensible precautions about this but when we talk of privacy, it will work. IMO, Bitcoin is not anonymous, but if used safely, it can give you more than enough privacy upon choosing on how to purchase/use on it.

bitcoin ATMs are not for privacy it is for a person who wants to buy small satoshi to use to pay for a service that accepts payments only via digital currencies.
It is a bad way to invest because fees are high and risky
It is not a way of privacy because you are buying and selling in a place that has cameras or close to the eyes of people and therefore everyone will know that you made the purchase and by following the public key that the wallet gave you, all the details of your currencies will be found.

Have heard so many confusing themselves about exchange and wallets, some choose to store their portfolio in exchange while exchange is not connected to private key. Every wallets has a mnemonic phrases or private key to back up your wallet, that's why wallets warns you to write down those keys somewhere.
In case of privacy, there is no 100% privacy system. Every wallets, p2p, ATM has a leak end point for public accessment. So privacy is measured by percentage. 

Seems like you are one of those confused ones.

Nothing is "connected" to a private key like you imagine.

Spending BTC always involves a private key to sign the transaction.
Custodial wallets / exchanges just don't give you access to the private keys (which is quite understandable regarding exchanges).

You just have a balance on their website which entitles you to withdraw BTC.




You can not measure privacy in percentage. Check my previous posts.

Yeah, this is also true. Even if you are forced to use a centralized exchange, complete KYC, or otherwise link your personal details to a trade or transaction, it is still possible to break the link between that transaction and future ones. Given how much centralized exchanges spy on their users, and even go so far as to freeze accounts if you deposit or withdraw coins to a service they don't like such as a casino, then trying to reclaim some semblance of privacy is even more important in these cases.

Yes, you absolutely can. See my previous post here - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5260157.msg54743635#msg54743635

It's worth pointing out that real decentralized exchanges such as Bisq, while they do provide an escrow between buyer and seller, do not have control over your funds while they are in escrow. The escrow is a multi-sig wallet between buyer and seller. Bisq can aid in mediating disputes, but they never control your coins or private keys as happens with centralized exchanges.

as bob123 mentioned an ATM is not 100% private.

you can have more privacy buying on p2p and using a mixer like blender or chipmixer (or if you're buying eth using tornado.cash)

if you buy on exchange + mixer you'll already have more privacy than buying on an atm.

Using your suggestions are also good, p2p exchanges that have no contact with your personal details will be fine but know that bitcoin ATM is 100% private, although depending on the amount of bitcoin you want to trade. Trading $5000 that your pocket can contain is good, just go to bitcoin atm and do your transactions with ease, no personal details is collected and privacy is of highest level.

In terms of privacy, it's up to us, but keeping the keys safe while exchanging can back everything up.

Bitcoin is undoubtedly one of the inventions in today's world of cash laundering, apart from P2P wallets for 100% privacy systems. Bitcoin is predicated on blockchain technology. Experts agree that the blockchain technology at the core of Bitcoin is very reliable. Banks and financial institutions should also use this block-chain technology. Block-chains have already been adopted as a replacement potential technology.

some ATMs may be safe in terms of privacy but still have cameras on the place or collect information as far as I heard.
I'd bet we can't generalize, right?

anyways, there are no bitcoin ATMs around where I live so its not really an option for many.

it also really depends on the amount of money we're talking about. one thing is selling 5,000 USD and a totally different one is selling 50,000 USD.

I don't have much money on my crypto waller account so I don't care much about security and privacy, that's me before but I realized that it is not good for me as a bitcoin, I should secure well my account even though it has no huge amount of money because there would be a possibility that hackers can still steal target you and will steal your money. but if I will have a huge amount of money, I will really need privacy and security, hackers always want huge money, they are common targets those people with huge money on their account knowing that they will make kore money compared to others.

One thing I learned reading "the richest man in Babylon" and other finances books is that if you don't take care of a small amount you won't take care of a big one, or even know how to handle it when it gets bigger.

thinking about privacy and security from the start is something important.

it's quite commons for people to get good results with crypto or stocks and give it all back to the markt because of things like that.

This is common misconception that users privacy and security should depend on the amount of cryptocurrency they currently hold. When they are thinking that way, they are missing the big part of the problem. Essentially, their assumptions are based on the wrong measurements. Given that we live in the world where economy is measured in reserve currency - dollar - and we use it as a unit of account to value different commodities, it is naturally obvious for everyone to calculate their wealthiness in that currency. However, it is not easy to calculate value of anything in bitcoins, because it is yet to be adopted as universal unit of account. Once it happens (or if) their small amounts in bitcoins may suddenly become huge and attractive for hackers.

Hackers probably care less about your privacy exposure than your government does at this point. If there was an entity to fear more between the two, I'd choose the government tbh. Why? Because they're legally getting into your personal life using various silly excuses +80% of the people fall for.

You should hide your identity from anyone no matter what. It's something you should have under control. If I rewind back to 2013, I remember a LOT of people talking about how much financial freedom and privacy Bitcoin gives and how bad that is for the authorities. Where are the same people now? Because at this point it seems like they only stated these things in order to create more FOMO so their own wallet's value would grow..

Sadly, if you happen to give your personal information in the internet, and specifically if you passed your kyc to a custodial wallet, if that wallet was hacked, then, any information that is stored there are already theirs. If that happened, since your info is there, then they will know who you are. I just do not know why they will go to your house,but they can, if they would like to. But that will be a bad move for them, so they will not think of that. Be more careful to your passwords. Do not access funds on public Wi-Fis.

usually the government can have us in their hands no matter what.
that's why it's so hard to find whistleblowers.
the government has just too much power.

regarding that, it's interesting to think what happens when bitcoin and crypto grows.

I will first say bitcoin is not anonymous right from the beginning, but privacy can still be of high standard even till today. If you use another address for another transaction makes only a single address fee traced to your wallet. You can still buy on some exchanges that require not verification, certain amount of bitcoin can be bought on bitcoin atms without any verification needed. Only novice are the ones using wallets and exchanges that require verification.

Yes maybe we can buy bitcoin through an ATM with Fiat without identity or buy with a DEX exchange. However, not all can do this in several countries. Including in my country, to withdraw from crypto to fiat, exchange applies KYC at any value. This then makes not all who trade with bitcoin can maintain full privacy. We all need privacy and maybe lot of crypto user don't want to do KYC (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5221497.0), but when it comes to dealing with the government, we have to do anything. Except in countries that accept bitcoin not only as commodity but legal as currency, full privacy can be happened.