Bitcoin Forum

Help me understand this. Will this partnership help retirees to buy and sell bitcoin under the trading strategies of Fidelity's experts? They cannot expect old grandma to do it by herself.

Pump and dump with retiree funds?

https://i.ibb.co/sWd7gsH/D58-E2580-F75-D-422-F-9-F84-E9-C047-B0-E1-DB.jpg

Crypto custodian Kingdom Trust is offering customers bitcoin cold storage from Fidelity Digital Assets.

The storage will be offered on Kingdom Trust’s Choice retirement account, a hybrid self-service retirement platform where investors can buy, sell or hold stocks, exchange-traded funds (ETFs) and digital assets in one tax-advantaged account.

Kingdom Trust CEO Ryan Radloff hopes the partnership with Fidelity will nudge the investment giant closer to serving retail crypto investors.

“I think having Fidelity grow is so important for bitcoin and the market’s maturity that I’m willing to sacrifice a few basis points of margin for that,” Radloff said of the new business arrangement. “We think this is meaningful for a lot of people that already have Fidelity retirement accounts but have really been waiting for Fidelity Digital Assets’ mandate to mature from just an institutional one to institutional and retail.”

Read in full https://www.coindesk.com/fidelity-digital-assets-to-custody-bitcoin-in-kingdom-trust-retirement-accounts

Idunno man, them having the choice of buying bitcoin is great, but probably the last thing that I would expect to cause a BTC pump, is from old people's retirement money money. Especially knowing that probably most of them is going to call bitcoin a scam once you mention it to them, with them telling you a quick history lesson about the Dutch tulip mania.

Trading BTC through a retirement account (tax free) is pretty awesome. That's great news for the what, 1,000 customers or so, that might have a Kingdom Trust Choice retirement account? :D

Let me know when Accenture or Oppenheimer offer something like this. Then we can talk about pumping Bitcoin.

Then most of them might just dump those retirement Bitcoins, right?

Most of them usually just save them, some use them for other stuffs like investing in some businesses or maybe what the agency wanted to. I mean, I don't know. If this happens I guess the community will be adding more holders in the process.

It's not about old grandmas!
When you are saving for a pension in a retirement fund,you are saving for the most of your active life.The people,who are saving money in retirement funds aren't that old.They are active and working.
When they retire,they start getting pensions and spending the money in their retirement accounts.
From where did you get that stupid assumption about old grandmas making investing decisions? ;D
This is going to be a "hybrid self-service retirement platform",so you have the answer to your question in this article.
Bitcoin being adopted by a retirement fund seems like a good news,but I wouldn't be that optimistic that this will actually happen.The authorities might deny such adoption.

Considering bitcoin as your retirement fund is not bad at all but this can't guarantee that the market will pump. We need more businesses to adopt honestly, but if those people who wants bitcoin to become their retirement fund is fine, I just hope that they really keep safe their private keys and keep monitoring the market so when the times come, they can easily enjoy the money that they worked for.

@bbc.reporter old folks will never buy bitcoins because they cannot handle the volatility that bitcoin brings, and secondly they may even find it complicated to keep their wallet safe. Lastly at their age I don’t expect them to be patient enough if bitcoin transactions take longer than expected, and hence we can rule them out of ever investing in bitcoins.

Sources:

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-these-early-retirees-wont-touch-bitcoin-or-other-cryptos-and-neither-should-you-2018-02-02

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/30/more-millennials-than-older-adults-say-bitcoin-is-the-best-way-to-save.html

Most of the old people never understand the inflation and investments that is why they choose to save their money on bank accounts rather than on assets but they are keep losing their savings every year unknowningly.As others said old people will call bitcoin as scam and from my experience its hard too convenience old people from their own perspective towards anything.

I believe that this issue is very complex and, in principle, is one of the reasons why cryptocurrency will not be able to be widely used in the daily life of every person in the near future. it is the old people who are the very obstacle, before the introduction of cryptocurrency into everyday life on a par with the national Fiat Linea funds. of course, there are elderly people advanced in the IT field who can use computers and smartphones, their new number is practical units and. very often old people do not even understand How to use mobile phones, this one says nothing even about cryptocurrency.

I do not think that there is any logic on using funds to buy bitcoin when the people are so old and their investments do not really need to go up too much. I mean these people only have like 20 years to live on average at the very best cases, bitcoin is not something that is gradually and slowly increasing method, you go buy bonds or sure stocks or whatever when you want slow but guaranteed stuff. What happens when grandma loses all her money in bitcoin?

I mean she is old, she can't just go out and work to make it back right? So, she would be basically put to a government house or maybe even worse, left alone to die. That is why I would assume that bitcoin for older people doesn't make sense even if they manage to buy it and store it, it is too risky for them to do it.

Exactly, it's not a prejudice but many older people don't trust Bitcoin. Majority of them doesn't even know what it is, that is the fact.
Also, in older age you want security, something reliable so I don't think that is very likely they will invest in Bitcoin. Too much risk for something unknown and with possibility to lose money they saved whole life. Alsow, I wouldn't recommend for older people to invest larger amount of money.

I think that's where Fidelity and Kingdom Trust enters the picture, to help those retirees to make the decision to whether invest their hard earn retirees money to bitcoin.

However, I don't link the idea though and I do hope that they will simply enter their money, after all they have work so hard for it for many years. So probably there will be no pump in the price, and I hope that retirees will have someone to get second opinion because its very dangerous to invest on bitcoin and lost their money on it.

I remember a great deal of talk about 'Mrs Watanabe', the stereotypical backbone of Japanese retail investment, riding to Bitcoin's rescue when the Japanese market opened up.

As with every other goddamn thing that was going to 'save' Bitcoin, as soon as she was unleashed fuck all happened.

I think the uptake for this will be somewhere in the region of - nil.

stop thinking of grandma and start thinking about average aged person adding to their 401k.

Custodial services are what will get bitcoin to the trillions. Coinbase is doing custodial services too. Ok so heres how it works: the SEC declined to allow Bitcoin ETF on the NASDAQ because if someone were to steal the funds its be a nightmare. Custodialship solves that problem.

Think gold, a custodian will hold gold in a vault, with security and it may even be backed by insurance if it gets stolen. That how you sell bitcoin to the investing public as safe: secured and insured. Also if the custodial were to steal the bitcoins, thats someone they can go after with a lawsuit.

Custody is what will bridge crypto street to wallstreet investors.

Not that I ever bought into the "Mrs Watanabe" narrative, but it did emerge in late 2017 when Bitflyer came to prominence and churned out record BTCJPY volumes month after month. At the time, it was the main exchange I watched because it seemed to be consistently leading the rest of the world.

You can't exactly say fuck all happened since the market literally bubbled to $20K. :D

Whether you believe Mrs Watanabe had anything to do with that is another matter.....

They will add more holders but the concern for the grandmas and grandpas is that they might not contain the risk and volatility that it can bring them. With their age, patience becomes weak although not for all.

But, they shouldn't encourage those that don't understand it.

Think this news was announced a few months ago actually, the first of its kind and all that. No different from other pension funds as I recall, and funds of these kinds simply allocate percentage to different assets based on the banks' or funds' own assessment of risk. I don't think the actual fund owner has any say once they allow portions of it to include Bitcoin.

Exposure to Bitcoin it may be, but in the least significant way possible without owning any.

This is definitely something that makes sense, but the average Bitcoin user or rather the user of this forum thinks that Bitcoin should be as far away from the custodial way as possible because its decentralization is jeopardized if each user is not their own bank. Logically speaking, this is true, because if Coinbase has 1 million Bitcoins in its possession, it means that all those who keep them there actually have nothing but their user account and trust in one company. If something bad happened to that company, then a new Mt.Gox would happen to us and BTC would suffer a serious blow.

Insurance or lawsuits are something that can last for years, especially with something that is quite sensitive like crypto. The trillions that some dream of will still have to wait a bit, but that big investors will be the ones to pump BTC should not be doubted for a moment - the only question is what will be the final result, will BTC be just a temporary toy for them?

This, it seems to me this is more geared toward the millennials than anyone else, those that are retiring or close to retiring cannot afford to invest in bitcoin even if they think it is a great opportunity, the volatility of this market is extreme and they are depending on that money to live the rest of their lives.

It is well known that money managers recommend to have a more aggressive portfolio when you are younger as if something goes wrong you have a lot of time to recover and keep holding whatever asset you have decided to hold until it recovers, but when you are old you do not have time on your side and it is better to invest in something that is not as volatile even if the profits are not a spectacular compared to other asset classes.

Retirement funds being used to pump bitcoin could happen if the entire funds were secured under a single key. The regular savings gets accumulated under one's own account which is under a specific firm. This means the firm as well as the user has control over the fund, but the individual with his fund cannot make a price pumping. If the firm plans, it can cause a price pumping combining the entire volume of funds available.

When reading such news I always think of the requirements that have to be met. In these case it would be requirements for an old person to buy Bitcoin this way.

They would have to:
have that specific retirement fund
be able to manage their own asets
be able to read and get that information. Most old people don't read leaflets and don't surf the Internet. They have a card and use it to pay from their account.
be positive about investing their money in general as most old people are not
know what Bitcoin is
be positive about it and we all know most people are not.

How many will put a tick in all the above? 1%?

I believe there is a lot of other hedge fund type of places that does something similar as well. They just take your money, you invest with them, and you do not know what they are doing with it. I mean sure you do, you can ask them or they probably have some papers on it, but the meaning is, you do not say "buy this or that" and so forth, you just give them money and they use that money to make more money for you.

It means if they want to buy bitcoin with all of them, they can. Of course it is risky and if it doesn't pay out everyone will lose money and they will withdraw their money with discontent and that hedge fund will never see any more new investments, yet by ability and right of law they can actually do that. This place is doing something similar, not all the money but just a small portion of it.

Problem I have with the Japanese market would be its a country in demographic decline and BTC really needs growth as a requirement for use.    Japan probably is part of BTC economy because its so far down the QE yellow brick road, they no longer have a stable currency base and crypto is seriously going to be some stabilizer and aid to them at some point.   Then it will be some requirement but in general I dont see that money from people already retired is something to rely on.


I think the confusion is between pension savings and so money needing to find investment and then those already retired which is a money flow in the opposite direction where savings are now spent in the near term and investment term is greatly reduced hence bonds which pay annually and high security investment is normal.   Crypto is high risk and a growth investment for those most relevant to people in their 20's or 30 because high risk is ok at that point.    Technology is the leading sector or unit trust fund at the moment, crypto cant be that far away from being viable in the minds of investment managers.    Its quite controversial though as nobody owns this network and the base unit is not imo an actual investment but a currency, investment would be to get involved with an active return like a mining operation.

I think the main things are that Japan is incredibly cash heavy and they've been stagnant since forever. Neither of those will inspire people to have a dabble. If it was going to explode we would've seen a few tremors by now.

Maybe there have been but it's telling how rarely the Japanese market is mentioned by others.

Demographics aren't really much of an issue when very few are on board at present. If education and enthusiasm increases from 2% to 20% it doesn't matter if millions are dying out.

Agreed. Similar to the big short of the mortgaged backed securities scam of 2008, irresponsible bankers and traders might begin using your 401k to invest in bitcoin and other cryptocoins. Bitcoin is alright, however, the article also mentioned that it will expand its portfolio to other digital assets. I assume altcoins hehehe. This news should be alarming.

Bad move. You don't play with old people's money. These old grandmas should have some cash that could be readily withdrawn anytime. They cannot do it with a very volatile Bitcoin. Any health related emergencies may suddenly arise anytime.

It would be all right if the funds are for the young men for their far future but not for the old men savoring their remaining days in this world.

Their money, their choice.

They're at the end of their lives. If it were me I'd be blowing it all as fast as possible. Which means I wouldn't be very interested in Bitcoin either unless I believed a bubble was just around the corner so I could blow more.

If I were an oldie, or more ancient than I am, buying BTC for my mewling vegetable descendants would appeal to me.

Yes, of course. So these custodians should not be playing with the old grandmas' money. It's not theirs.

And even if these old people are free to choose which option they prefer, I hope the eighty and ninety year olds are still very much aware of their Bitcoin responsibility such as safekeeping the private keys through a third party solution, the risks involved with it and how to counter them, the pros and cons of lending and staking of their crypto assets through Kingdom Trust, etc.  

Why not if the firm that is going to do this understand all the risk involved in a volatile market it's a win win situation for retirees and the market, retiree funds are one of the overlooked insurance in the world, one firm should start doing it if they attain success, it's possible that many firms from other countries will follow their lead.

I don't think many grandmas have these accounts anyway. More likely Millennials and younger professionals who have barely built their retirement savings yet.

Kingdom Trust is a very new and tech-oriented asset manager, launched only 10 years ago. They only have $12 billion in assets under management. When you compare that to Blackrock's $7.5 trillion, it's obvious they are smaller than small.

This could be a baby step of sorts though. It could help to legitimize and normalize Bitcoin IRAs at the institutional level.

I'm a cynic. I suspect they are doing it because they believe the heirs won't understand Bitcoin, so when granny dies, nobody will claim the funds.

Note - I have no justification for that belief, just an understanding of some current investment and banking practices.

However, is it really their choice? Was losing people's pensions on the mortgage backed securities market during 2008 also the choice of those people?