Bitcoin Forum

Recently, BTC has already hit ATH against Turkish currency Lira. I have seen this popping up on the social media and surprised before watching that Turkish Lira has lost a lot of value. Back in 2017 ATH of Bitcoin, Lira was priced at around 3.75 Lira per USD while now it has lost value and is priced around 6.98 Lira per USD.
Nevertheless, it's still an ATH and we can see another ATH soon against BTC as well.
Source- https://cryptopotato.com/bitcoin-price-hits-ath-against-the-turkish-lira/

Bitcoin hit all time high against Brazilian Real BRL as well , a few months ago.

But this is more due to fiat devaluation than to bitcoin valuation,  as bitcoin would still need about 70-80 % more to reach it's all time high against dolar.

Bitcoin was a very good hedge in this pandemic crisis for developing countries,  which fiats suffered a lot.

ATH against BTC in the negative sense unfortunately.

Even if it's an ATH, it still doesn't look good if the paired currency is devaluing massively. It just shows that the currency is struggling to keep a steady value while the rest of the world are still holding on and not giving in to hyperinflation. Turkish Lira has been sliding towards a bad shape since the start of 2015. Some say it's from the workings of foreign powers, but I mainly believe that it's due to the instability of their government and the lack of incentive to really invest in Turkey and place a mainstay company or even an offshore department from there. Good thing though that Turkey does not prohibit the use and trades of cryptocurrency, as it might help its population save some value on their hard-earned money in the midst of the rapid loss of value of the Turkish Lira.

You are correct, the main reason why countries experience inflation is because the country, the government as a whole is so much in debt their revenue can't pay it off. So to approach this problem they think that printing higher valued notes will create the money needed to pay off the debts but this money is devaluated because it isn't backed by anything, not even by the monetary policy of their central banks or by the selling of currency bonds. Few countries want to buy bonds of another country that's printing larger banknotes because those bonds are worthless. Foreign powers may be able to influence some economics like imports and exports but they don't have much of a say in other countries' monetary policies.

Yes, as national fiat currency collapses, more wise investors are going to shift to bitcoin to hedge their wealth. I think a good test case is Venezuela it's been years now since bitcoin has been hitting ATH there and it seems that Turkey are going on the same way today. Doesn't sound good in the country though, and I do hope that they can bounce back and not go deep like Venezuela.

This is true. Bitcoin hitting ATH against a currency at the moment says a lot more about that currency than it does about bitcoin.
Bitcoin is however still a huge gamble in the short-term due to the volatility of which we're all aware. Perhaps in the long-term bitcoin can become a viable safe-haven and store-of-value, but it is certainly not there yet. Whilst crypto has done better than fiat in some nations recently, this does not mean that the situation will remain like this over the longer term.

Governments were sole responsible for the devaluation of money value. With the recent crisis more and more number of countries have been experiencing a crash in the economy. This way if we go through the money value against bitcoin we can see more other countries other than Brazil, Turkey having the new ATH value for bitcoin.

IMHO Bitcoin ATH only matter when it's trade-able worldwide for that price.
Otherwise Bitcoin prices are high all around like in Africa, Venezuela and so on

The way things are going, it shouldn't be long before it hits new ATH in USD or EUR

Whenever you are comparing BTC to any currency, you should also the check the currency itself. Currently, because of the economic crisis and rise of the inflection rate in all over the world, as you can see on the markets all the metals such as gold are rising over all currencies, which mean the currency is losing it price over times. In the other hand, BTC started bull the run. By rising the BTC price and falling down the currency, the ATH was always completely possible.

Unfortunately for Turks, Turkish Lira has been loosing value against USD constantly since 2008, so this is just a continuation of a trend that that doesn't seem will end any time toon as Erdogan got rid of any opposition there.

Lesson for Turks: save value of your money, invest in BTC!

This is really unexpected for sure.
And I believe that most of from Turkey have some regrets about this. It is also difficult for them especially for those people who don't have any knowledge what is Bitcoin or non-techy people.
But you have point somehow for saving the value of our money and investing in Bitcoin is one of the best idea but STILL, there is still risk for investing in Bitcoin, we should also aware on that.

High-tech knowledge isn't really needed when investing in bitcoins as there are indirect means of investing today through exchange traded funds and the holder wouldn't need to create a wallet address or deal with the security of their coins. However, due to the volatility in bitcoins' value, it does not yet fit perfectly as a store of value, especially if it's one the holder wants to reach into and spend from time to time. The holder would need to develop high trust in the technology and understanding of markets

Gold can also be purchased as a basket of shares managed by a broker, if this is still to technological, people have been known to purchase the actual gold bars (https://www.dailysabah.com/business/100-tons-of-gold-hidden-under-mattresses-put-back-into-turkeys-economy/news/amp) (billion) and store them under their beds in Turkey, this should provide an alternate means of hedging funds.

IIRC, there were countries too before that had the same news for which bitcoin reached ATH on their currencies. I barely remember that country but that means that those people who held bitcoin before the all-time high and even during the ATH are the ones that will benefit from it. But, the other side, there's negativity from it if their fiat value is depreciating.

I didn't know that they've been experiencing this since 2015. I thought this is just the year where most countries will experience the bad shaping of their economy due to pandemic.

it is not negative sense, it is how fiat is!
thanks to fiat's inflation it will always continue losing value. we see extreme cases in currencies such as Lira but it is happening to all fiat currencies. and since we commonly use USD to report bitcoin value, it is no different there either. USD is also losing value over time even if at a slower pace. with the recent super crazy USD printing it has lost a lot of value but it is getting there (to its real value) slowly because it is slowed down by manipulation so people don't get shocked by economy tanking hard and suddenly.

p.s. as a matter of fact part of the reason why bitcoin is rising in value (also gold) is because USD is losing its value.

After reading some of the replies in the topic, shower thought. "Is Bitcoin a form of financial instrument/derivative to hold to SHORT the central banking system"? 8)

I think it has already hit a historic high on so many fiat currencies by now, since fiat is doing nothing but devaluing every time with more paper being printed all over the world. If I remember a few months ago, 1 satoshi finally equalled 1 unit of some countries' currencies too.

Fiat is going down the drain my friends.

That goes on for much longer that that. Just look at the ratio prior to 2010 when it was around 0.80, and compare to it now when ratio is 1 LIRA =0.14 USD. That's something like 80%  loss..

https://i.postimg.cc/3wdWrLxW/IMG-20200807-120037.jpg

As pooya87 said, all fiat currencies loose their value over time, that's how they work, its just that stabile ones  that are tied to strong economy loose maybe few % per year (and that's why saving cash is worst possible thing you can do, as interest you get in bank is lower than inflation, therefore you loose money).

yes, indeed
last time when i was in Turkey, and that was in 2010, one EUR was about 2 TRY, and now is about 8,4 TRY, so this news should be taken as byte-click, because TRY was down for more or less every measurement that you can think of, BTC as well
BTC is on the half of the road to maximum value, and the thing that it touched ATH against TRY does not mean a thing for anyone outside Turkey, and for them it is the same, all other currencies are on ATH against TRY

I won't be surprised if BTC hits a new ATH with most fiat currencies, considering the state of Global economics due to the pandemic. It might reach a new ATH with USD if the pandemic situation in the US does not come under control soon.

As per IMF biggest global recession will hit the world by end of this year, this means most fiat currencies will lose their present valuation with USD which will also affect the USD.

ATH's due to increasing worthlessness are meaningless other than demonstrating why people in such places should be in BTC. I remember the laughable surveys saying 20% of Turks were balls deep in Bitcoin. Maybe an actual few wish they were.

The truth of the matter is, non of those fiat currency really matter as they're not the dominant currencies. We all know when new all time highs are been debated on the fiat value are always linked to that of the USD and until bitcoin is able to cross that highest USD value of 2017 only then can we celebrate and not all these other fiat that we careless about. In my country around 2017, a dollar was around N350 +/- but currently it's trading above N400 so if the fiat value of bitcoin in my country crosses that of 2017 which is around N7million those that call for celebration when I know the fiat is getting devalued.

We should pick some lessons from this too as it's showing us that investing in bitcoin is very important, and a savior from the scam called fiat. Just imagine holding your savings in these fiat getting devalued yearly. You think you have money but you end up having less everytime your currency gets devalued.

Yeah that sounds like a gross exaggeration. I mean, I know that Bitcoin is probably popular in Turkey if we base it on their activity on bitcointalk, but that number is crazy. There are more than 80 million Turks, by that survey it means 16+ million of them are "balls deep" in Bitcoin. If that was indeed the case, price of BTC would be way higher. Hell, if 1% of Turks were balls deep in BTC that would be reflected in  price.


+1

If you live in a politically and economically unstable country, it makes more sense that you use BTC (as volatile as it is) as store of value, rather than your own country's fiat currency. Maybe not all, but a significant portion. My country's currency (Croatian Kuna) is generally stabile, yet again I rather choose BTC.

I know what I meant here and I have explained in the OP that Turkis Lira has lost a huge value against USD. That was not the point. Having an ATH is still good regardless of whatever currency it is IMO. Well, there are currencies which lost value a few thousands times.
Since there was a lot of USD supply in the US economy, will you still say the same once BTC hits ATH against USD. Not certainly and you can't deny that USD has lost value as well. So, what's the point?

While we are talking 1 dollar has became 7.10 Turkish lira as well, so it is losing value even more. I would say people who have invested into bitcoin in the past 3 years (with the exception of the ATH) have all profited, that was the big thing about the Lira and bitcoin in Turkey, people didn't cared about dollar as much as people here, for some reason people here all talk about bitcoin and dollar prices like it is a thing that we should care about but in reality we are not Americans, why would we care about dollar value of bitcoin?

We all live in our own nations and people who are not USA citizens should be looking at the price of bitcoin in their own fiat and even if your purchasing power stays same, at least you are not losing value like the fiat is losing.

Swoosh.

Yes, fiat are made to be flatten and lose their value through inflation. I'm not just aware that Turkey has lost that much although in my country, we're also dealing with this.

We're doing a good thing that instead of saving our cash in the banks, we have it in bitcoin. The more we hold, the better strategy that we're doing to flee from the devaluation and inflation of our money.

Gold before those last ten years, and bitcoin since have been the safest assets to secure your money from devaluation of FIAT which affected many countries outside the biggest economies.
Recently bitcoin increased very well but reaching ATH in several currencies is due mainly to the devaluation of FIAT rather than a big jump of BTC which is sad for those countries.

It's true. Thank you as I have understood it why there were news in the past that there's all-time high in fiat currencies for bitcoin.

We are lucky to have bitcoin in our investments and keeping the value from the time we have bought it. And what's good about it is that the value of bitcoin is increasing as we're all expecting it through different factors that we know.

As fiat depreciate and devaluates, we have bitcoin that counters inflation.

Yeah that's why you see us coming to the space in our numbers (speaking about enthusiast from my geographical area) and Africa at large. Our native fiat currency gets devalued almost yearly. In fact every month, you holding Naira would likely give you less dollars but that's not the case with bitcoin. We investing in bitcoin gives us double advantage. When the profits aren't coming in bitcoin via price increase, you might get some more returns when cashing out to Naira comparing to what you invested due to inflation rate of Naira.

Let say I invested just $1000 which is around N387,000 (N387/$) as of press, in the coming months lets assume the market was boring, no much exciting price movement and the price is still trading around it's current price of +/- $11,600. Even though there's a little decline in price and I'm willing to cashout, I most likely will cashout more Naira then I invested.

I will be surprised if I see news about Bitcoin reaching ATH against the dollar, if that happens it might affect all countries against the jump in the price of Bitcoin.

As we know that Turkey is currently on the verge of collapse from an economic point of view, this is influenced by the US dollar, the fall of the Lira made many investors withdraw assets and switch to other currencies.
For that trade against Bitcoin increased by more than 1.58%, or the equivalent of 91.21 million per coin, if calculated in dollars around: $ 6,359, this has no effect on other countries, only applies in Turkey.

This happens in the past already, not sure if it's the same currency but in the past when the market is bullish, some currency were having an ATH on its bitcoin trading pair. IMO, this is good, it's a sign that we are getting close to our expectation which is the bull run that could potentially break the current ATH.

I'm not surprise with this news actually, but I'm happy with this kind of news, it could bring some hype and would have a positive effect to the market in overall. Also, I believe that the pandemic was one of the factor why people are hedging their money on the recession.

99% or more of people will simply stick with the dollar. For most people that gets the job done in a vastly more widespread and straightforward manner.

It's similar to that Greek banking crisis. Bitcoiners were touching themselves at the idea of millions of Greeks pouring into Bitcoin to save themselves... or they simply grabbed Euros in cash where they could.

Not necessarily.
If usd loses its values it will be against same pairs. For example, usd x Turkish lira ratio will get lower.
In this case bitcoin x usd will go up but bitcoin x lira will go down.

"value" of fiat should be defined as its purchasing power not its "price" versus another fiat currency. when a fiat like USD loses its value it means anything you were buying before now costs more in that fiat. for example when you go grocery shopping you'll end up paying more USD than before without groceries having gained any value.

So what?Do we have to care about the Turkish lira?AFAIK,the Turkish lira is a pretty volatile and weak currency that gets devalued every time,when there are protests and political instability in Turkey.
The Turkish government also wants a weak lira,in order to stimulate the export and reduce import of goods and services.
Many countries have weak national currencies and Bitcoin have already reached an ATH against those currencies,but that doesn't matter for the crypto market.

Bitcoin rising up in Turkish Lira can only mean 2 things 1 is that people in Turkey are selling their fiat currency to buy Bitcoin as some kind of "safe haven" and the other one is that the Turkish Lira has devalued fast that's why we are seeing an ATH for their exchange but there is a great chance that this 2 things is the reason why it got up to that level. A devalued fiat currency combined with people dumping it will result to Bitcoin being bought in that country to rise up in demand which will be the case if people in Turkey do buy cryptocurrencies there.

people don't exactly have to buy bitcoin (more) for its value to go up against a devaluating currency. it is a simple matter of arbitrage that keeps the value fixed while raising it against the pair that is losing its value. it is somewhat similar to what has been happening to altcoins during bitcoin price rises. they never gain value during those times, in fact most of them lose value. but since bitcoin price rises against USD and the shitcoin drops a small amount against BTC the final price of it against USD seems higher so people think their shitcoin has gained value.

Because no matter how much you dislike it, that value is what matters.
Nobody gives a damn about the value of BTC in lira, pesos, bolivars, or yuans.
If I told you I would sell a BTC right now for 4500 Norwegian kronor what would be the first thing you would search for? The value in USD of those Norwegian kronor.  ;D


That's the whole trick if your national currency is losing value against a somewhat stable currency like the euro or the American dollar it's impossible for to keep your purchasing power intact unless you're North Korea.


Do you really think that a few exchanges with a few million in daily volume would be able to influence the trillions per day forex market?
The drop in value of the Turkish lira against BTC is the result of the devaluation of the lira against the USD, it's the result not the cause.

I disagree that Turkish Lira doesn't matter and things like dollars, euros and sterling is the thing that matters only. Because, there are tons of people and tons of money coming in from those nations as well that matters for those people and they could make moves according to that. We are talking about people who bought at 20k levels and still holding to make a profit finally be able to sell and take out profit, that is 3 year wait so they have all the right to sell if they want to get out and when they do that we are talking about hundreds of millions of dollars worth of money getting out of the market.

You can go check how much Turkey is involved in crypto and as a nation with failed economy they are really interested in bitcoin which means they are very important. Nations powers doesn't matter in bitcoin, how much people have power on bitcoin is the only thing that matters.

If we are talking about any kind of asset market the price movement of any asset rarely is contributed to one factor. For example the devaluation of Turkish Lira cannot be the only factor why Bitcoin has hit its all time high solely because of it, yes it contributed to it greatly but do you even think that it will rise up to that level if people are not exchanging their Turkish Lira for Bitcoin? Of course it won't, the price chart won't even move if there will be no buying and selling happening in the market.

anybody who participated in the market matters but it is all about the degree of their influence and that degree is based on the volume. when the volume coming from other currencies in other exchanges is compared to the volume coming from major exchanges in USD then you can see that they are negligible.
in some cases there is also the problem of OTC trading that it doesn't really affect the price in centralized exchanges.

only a handful of people bought at $20k because it didn't last long enough for anybody to make a move. most of them bought between $8k to $12k which is why this range has been so active with a lot of older coins moving.
that is the nature of ATH which also is a bubble. regular people weren't really buying there, it was only day traders who also sold their coins right away and bought back and sold and bought back at least a thousand times ever since then.

Really?
Let's assume the whole of Turkey goes into a blackout for the next 7 days. Meanwhile bitcoin price jump to 100k$!
When power resumes in Turkey, at what price they are going to start trading bitcoin? 83k TRY (the price now) or 750k TRY (close to 100kusd)? Pretty obvious it would be the latter but why no trade happened, no demand was there, why would the price jump also 10x times? 

The price of BTC in any currency is still dictated by the global market, and it would be crazy to think that for a prolonged period of time the price would be abnormal high in just one country that is connected to the global markets and banking infrastructure. I'm excluding countries like Venezuela or Iran from those, these are in a league of their own, spikes can happen but temporarily which is not the case here. All this happens because just as we have arbitrage between exchanged when it comes to USD<>BTC , exchanges and traders in those countries will act like this, selling their coins for 1.2 the price in USD, then buying from foreign exchange, selling again in profit, changing liras to USD, rinse and repeat till there is no gap anymore.

Again, as an example, if you could sell your coins in turkey for 150k TRY (that's some 20k USD, what would you do, sell them change the liras to USD, send again the USD to bitstamp, buy at 12k, and dump again, and again till it won't be profitable as hundreds do the same as you and the local market has reached equilibrium with the global trade.

Bottom line, yeah the price of BTC versus a national currency can triple or quadruple even if no trading is taking place.

Not all prices are equal in certainty, usually we take a price as more confident over longer periods of time.   In BTC case I think we get to monthly bars to really judge it long term which is surprising when it moves so fast.   The USD ATH traded up and back down quite quickly so by that measure it has to prove itself in future again.  
  Turkish Lira ATH will be helping participation and in population growth for BTC but Im not sure we gain directly from another currencies loss.   If we prove more reliable then we should be gaining business that might otherwise conduct in Lira or USD even, theres a good utility to BTC so I think thats more of an indirect gain by contrast BTC is useful.  That effect seems like it will increase over the next years, it wont only be Lira so we're bullish BTC and part of that is already in the price and in anticipation.

There is also the fact that just because dollar recovers doesn't mean that Lira will get more valuable against Dollar as well. What if Lira loses value even faster than Dollar loses value? It may happen or may not happen but that is an option as well. Hence, I think that should not be what makes you decide when you are doing this.

If you had lira last year, and bought bitcoin with it and sold it and bought usdt with it right after it peaked at 11k, and kept that usdt, until last week and sold, you would have made over 50% profit at the same time. In just one year making over 50% profit is insane in regular trading, sure some high level day traders could be doing a lot more than that but in reality that is not what people do with investments for long term profiting.