Bitcoin Forum

With all the recent Scrypt ASIC news we are strongly considering switching DigiByte to a more ASIC resistant algorithm to ensure a more fair mining opportunity for everyone. Our goal since day one is to make sure there is not centralization of hashing power or technology with DigiByte.

Please explain the reason for your vote and if you voted yes please list and provide a link to the algorithm you support.

Also, if anyone has any case studies of a coin hard forking and switching algorithms please post a link.

Don't you think it is actually good that scrypt asics are coming? This can only make your network more secure, if you manage to maintain a high hashrate that is.

We have thought about this and we do see some positives to this in the long run. Securing the block chain is very important. We wanted to open this up to the community and see what everyone's consensus was on this.

switch to X11 algo

Undecided, because I'll accept any change which can help to rise the price and nothing more. BTW, It's simple to switch to Scrypt-N, but keccak (from maxcoin) will keep rigs cold, summer is coming.

Yes, cooling and electrical savings could be a huge selling point. We are trying to work out the summer cooling issue for our miners as well.

We are looking at potentially modifying Scrypt-N, maybe calling it Scrypt-D or even DigiScrypt?

I don't think it's wise. Scrypt-N already well known, tested, accepted by miners. It's good enough to fight ASICs. Necessary and sufficient.
WTB, sgminer will support scrypt-n out of the box soon.

Voting for x-11
GPU's are cooler, very hard for asics.

Very good point Sammy, having mining software that works is important!

Does x-11 work with CGMiner? Or is there special mining software required?

What about botnets?

There is a fork of sgminer.

sph-sgminer https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=516349.0

I am afraid price drop. I am holding like a special kind of idiot, just missed high prices.

It uses Sgminer.

 x11 uses the following for  hashing, blake, bmw, groestl, jh, keccak, skein, luffa, cubehash, shavite, simd and echo.

GPU botnets, or CPU botnets with x-11?

What sort of hash rates to you see with X11 & Scrypt-N is it about the same as Scrypt? Or is their a reduction in hash output?

High end CPU's get the same average return as GPU's.

Not sure about low end CPU's though, never tried it.

Never bothered with Scrypy-N, But with x11 I get the following:

1.8 mh/s on an Asus 7970
1.24 mh/s on a R9-270

CPU. Probably I fall asleep...

it doesn't matter

So you are actually getting a hash increase over Scrypt/CGminer?

Different algos, different hashrates... What we are talking about? It does not matter.

Yep. Different Algorithms so different hashrates

         Scrypt Equiv    x11
7970    720kh/s         1.8 mh/s
270     480kh/s          1.24 mh/s

Interesting, thanks for sharing.

Was talking to the Doge devs and they brought up some good points. The stratum on several pools will have to be changed and at the exact block of change we could see some wacky things occur with the net hash rate.

Most mining pools do not support Scrypt N at the moment. Would we be doing more harm than good?

Well, depends how you see it.
Moving away from Scrypt will annoy the people with gridseeds and the KNC titan when it comes out. But, it will push the little GPU miners out like myself. You should just leave the poll up for a bit and see what the people think.

I am not sure 100%, but they don't care what algo is, because they need just a daemon. Am I missing something?

We have never ran a pool but will look more into it.

In the long run (think few years out), the network really can't run on gpus... if Digibyte becomes a serious online medium for exchanging goods and services, ASICs will play an important in securing the blockchain and maintaining a high hash rate at a fraction of the power. Even today 10 gridseeds can put out 3.5Mh of hashing power at just under 70 watts. GPUs waste energy. Just my two cents.

If you decide to switch algorithm, please switch to something that does something else than forces the hashing power down. For example the vert mining just forces the hash down but also seems to cause a lot of strain on the gpu even at low intensity, which I find stupid. The best would be to implement something new if you decide to change, even though I do not really understand the need to change. However to have something unique might interest new investors also it would show that you are not just another coin dev that copy pastes code.

You bring up some very valid points. We are looking more into each algorithm to decide if we can improve the performance and maybe implement something unique to DigiByte like we did with DigiShield.

With my understanding, this is inaccurate.

The actual "hash-rate" is unimportant.  Ergo, "pushing down" the hashrate is not a concern.

The important thing to understand is that hash is relative.  If everyone is hashing at, for arguments sake, 50% of the previous hash - then your reward for hashing remains the same. 

I haven't looked into x11, but the important different between sCrypt and n-factor sCrypt is the requirement of memory during the hash function.  The CPU algorithms force the limiting factor to be memory, as opposed to CPU/GPU/ASIC.  Memory, it seems at least, is not poised to experience the exponential growth in price/power.  This is what makes it attractive as a limiting factor.

Instead of paying any attention at all to "hashing power", the conversation needs to be about DISTRIBUTED "hashing power".  A network could have the highest "hashing power" of any coin in existence and at the same time be the least secure chain.  Keeping the hashing power distributed and not centralized to a few actors is the ultimate, and only important, goal that should be considered.

let the asics have digibyte and hold all your coins will only drive value up like bitcoin. saying that im only a one card wonder gpu farms have more to loose NEED MORE MERCHANTS ALL THESE COINS ITS A RACE AGAINT TIME WHO GET ESTABLISHED FIRST. the cyrpto coin grave yard is stacking up

You are absolutely correct. It is a race to see who gets established first. We are doing everything we can to be that 1st coin. We are in this for the long haul!

I think that an alternative algorithm should be developed (maybe in conjunction with the Doge coin developers??)  but held off until we see how hard the network is hit by the asics.
It may not be as big a problem as people are thinking.

We need to remember there are people out there running farms with hundreds of gpus. These are the same people who will invest big in the new asics, so yes the hash rate will grow, but by how much, as I'm sure these are the same people who will turn off there gpu farms and mine purely on asics.

Maybe work with the people behind Sgminer directly to develop the new algorithm, im sure between Digi, Doge and the Sgminer crew you could come up with the true next gen algorithm.

This is a sensible approach to take. We have had some discussions with the Doge devs about this. We feel at most there is going to only be a 3-5 fold performance increase. No where near like what happened with Bitcoin Asics.

There are a number of issues that will be experienced with making another hard fork. During the last one we lost several mining pools, an exchange and all our block explorers. As DigiByte grows and more companies/platforms add DigiByte it will make hard forking and switching algos less of a possibility.

Also given the very cheap pricing of some of the Asics (www.fibonacci.io has 3460khs for about 22 lite coins) Normal miners can afford them, hell this one works out cheaper than gpus!

X11 is superior to scrypt N. I actually hate scrypt N =/

No way.
ASICs are the natural evolution to cheaply secure the blockchain... unless of course you want to preserve the massive gpu rigs of the big fish. For most small miners, ASICs will be much cheaper to buy and run... and maybe y'all can go back to playing Call of Duty with your GPUs instead of fucking up all the gamers by driving prices of gpus to unreasonable levels

I vote for useful POW. Something like GridCoin, RieCoin. Something that will use hashing power noy only to secure the network but also for some really useful computing!

Does anyone have more examples like Grid, Rie, maybe? Has anyone heard of curecoin?

I believe the Curecoin devs have an algo ready but they didnt lauch the coin. Can we collaborate with them?

Check this out:
"CureCoin allows owners of both ASIC and GPU/CPU hardware to earn. CureCoin puts ASICs to work at what they are good at--securing a blockchain, while it puts GPUs and CPUs to work with work items that can only be done on them--protein folding. "

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=330685.0

Everyone Wins!

I read about a coin these days with multiple algorithms - each with its own difficulty and block times - but with the same coins per timeframe at the end.
This sounds very promising to me as everyone can mine the algo he/she deserves without harming gpu, cpu or asic users. They all have the same chance to find a block.

However, I can't remember the name of that coin  :-\

So forget the miners for a second, how do these new algo help the consumer and user of coins.   Does it improve the product for them, raise utility in some way, increase speeds.

If hash rates rise with x11 is that somehow analogous to the asic advance without losing gpu miners.    What you dont want is to take a Luddite perspective, which is to smash the tractors because they make potato pickers redundant

If you want the best - go X11 - DarkCoin

Power usage is down almost 50%, less heat, very stable algo and asic resistant.

it's the myriadcoin

X11!!! +100000

heavycoin algo is even cooler

Scrypt ASIC will keep the coins in the hands of few.

I vote to change to X11 algo, it consumes less power, and keep your GPU cooler.

http://kolinevans.wordpress.com/2014/03/02/why-there-could-be-a-mini-revolution-occuring-in-crypto-currency/

welcome home. : )

Interesting article, thank you for posting.

no probs.

We are now spending considerable time & energy researching other algorithms and how we could go about making a switch. To our knowledge no other coin has yet to fork and switch algorithms after it has been launched. As such there is a whole new set of problems that need to be addressed.

We think it is definitely possible, but considerable preparation will have to take place ahead of time.

The biggest problem we foresee is what would happen at the exact block of the switch. One look at the Vertcoin thread shows they only have two mining pools. DigiByte would probably lose most of our mining pools right away if we went with Scrypt-N. There are also several other potential issues we see causing problems. Never the less, it is something we would like to play around with and test out to see what our options are.

Tried the Heavycoin algo, and this also is very good in power consumption. You guys shouldn't forget that quark algo also consumes less power, but I think it opens a door to botnets.

Have a look to the heavycoin algorithm with the the gpu miner from 1gh pool!! This is the best algo ever!!! I am not the expert but i think it is a modified cgminer.

Cards running very very cold with higher MH/sec, nearly soundless, halfed energy. Much better as x11.

I will mine only this algo during the summer.

Try it!!! --> http://hvc.1gh.com/

I'm kinda undecided...well if ASICs owners would turn against network they could kind of easily attack it.

We are thinking there might be another option. An option where we keep Scrypt and at a certain block we add in another algo that is weighted heavier than Scrypt. This way all our existing pools/miners can still mine DigiByte. But they will be incentivized to start mining on the new algorithm that is weighted heavier & rewarded with more new coins. This would hopefully lead to a nice smooth transfer over to a new algo. Then at a later date we could release another update that removes Scrypt from the client. Or we may just keep it and reep some of the benefits of allowing ASIC miners to mine DigiByte, but at a disadvantage to GPU miners.

We feel it is important to keep GPU miners in the game. People feel a lot more comfortable getting into crypto mining when all they have to do is purchase or using an existing graphics card. Graphics cards can always be resold or used for gaming/work desktop environments. ASIC's are good for only one thing and if Bitcoin is any indicator they will lose their value very quickly as newer more efficient models come along.

i like Scrypt-n but i rather see digibyte using x11 :)

X11 seems to be generating a lot of new traction & attention.  We are definitely looking more into it. Still not sold on it being the best solution yet.

+1.  the power savings alone are worth it.

I second that.
Leave the ASIC freaks standing in the rain with their shiny new gear.
Its an assault by the elite to take over again.
They can make Flappycoin and Penguin all they want then and have fun trading with each other.

I'd love to see all valuable Altcoins changing algos in a concerted effort.
Just like a general relaunch, would be a whole new round of game for a while.

Has anyone read anything about FGPA's being used to mine X11?

+1

2.5x more efficient hashing yet runs 20C cooler and consumes 30% less energy. Why would a PoW coin use anything else?

Agreed for sure.  X11 ALL THE WAY, it's what we all have been waiting for :D

Why dont you think about qubit algo? While I was mining qubitcoin few days ago my gpu temp was ~50C,fans 35% and hashrate with r9 270x 3,1MHs. I think that would be great move and digibyte would be the second one with that algo,first is qubitcoin. Also it is asic resistant which is great. On the other side we have x11 algo and there are already few coins that use it. Just think about it and sorry for my english.

The talk about changing algos won't go away anymore.
I'm doing Darkcoin since yesterday and I already enjoy the silence and lack of heat mining X11.
My power bill will be cut in half. The chart for the coin looks amazing.

A lot of the hassle regarding fundamental changes in the software would be taken away, if there were an in-app update method contained in the wallets.

If it will increase the value then I would go with x11. Either that or n-scrypt.

While we understand the urgency of changing quickly but there are several things that need to be analyzed first. This is not a move we want to make without doing our homework. It could have disastrous consequences.

For those who are new to the crypto community there was a type of mining hardware developed for mining Bitcoin before ASICs known as FGPAs. They were essentially an improved, specialized graphics card the only worked for mining Bitcoin mainly used in 2012 beginning of 2013. They were rendered obsolete by Bitcoin ASICs but there are still a lot of them out there with nothing to do at the moment.

We have heard some reports of people using FGPA's to mine X11. We need to verify whether this is possible or not as this would give a very tiny part of the crypto community a huge mining advantage.

I like X11 for it's lower electricity use, less heat generation and slower (quieter) fan utilization.
I do realize that the above is due to inefficiency of the algo, but i still prefer it over scrypt for summertime GPU mining

very true, but GPU only mining lets the little guy play too.

GPU miners only want their hardware to work. DigiShield was all the fix any coin needed. Scrypt asics aren't the multiple orders of magnitude more powerful than GPU's like sha256 was because scrypt is a lot harder to "game". You end up with an asic that is marginally better. Switching algorithms means that huge farm GPU guys (the children whining) can monopolize a coin. At least right now someone hobby mining can go buy a gridseed for a hundred bucks and compete. Switching algorithms is pointless, and a huge waste of time that only benefits the whiny GPU miner.

But more importantly.... look what happened to Blackcoin. They ended up having to set up a compromise multipool just for their coin because nobody likes weird algorithm coins. They all fail. Switching the algorithm will kill Digibyte. People don't like unpopular algorithms. Those coins all fail.

I thought the point was to make DGB a multi algo coin? So with Sha256 and Scrypt being minable (like myriad) it doesnt cut anyone out of the game. If you add in x11 it gives everyone the advantage of mining and acquiring coins.

I always liked the idea of a multi algo coin covering, Sha256, Scrypt, X11 and POS. Basically 3 efficient ways of mining the coin (depending on platform) and 1 more to incentiveize holding and steaking coins. Preventing dumping.

Merge-mine with doges.

This is an interesting idea. Multi-algo plus POS.

anything ever decided here? is the DigiByte dev team still around?

Yes, check the main dgb thread.

If they don't switch algorithm,big miners will take away most of the coins.