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Title: ㅤ Post by: Symmetrick on September 07, 2020, 10:08:46 AM ㅤ
Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: TimeTeller on September 08, 2020, 09:53:07 PM Most of us don't verify our bets if we are playing in a reputable site.
But sometimes we need to do random checks if the site is always keeping their provable fairness in place. The post above will be very helpful also to newbie gamblers, on how to check the provable fairness of a gambling site. Most gambling sites have their own tab of checking provable fairness, but see if they are really following this fairness. And if a site doesn't have, doubt about its authenticity and ask for their provable fairness aspect. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: Botnake on September 08, 2020, 10:25:29 PM Most of us don't verify our bets if we are playing in a reputable site. Sharing based on experienced, yeah, that's true, even me, I don't verify my bet because I trust the site and I believe if I didn't others will do especially the competitors as it would give them an advantage if they can destroy their competitors.But sometimes we need to do random checks if the site is always keeping their provable fairness in place. The post above will be very helpful also to newbie gamblers, on how to check the provable fairness of a gambling site. Most gambling sites have their own tab of checking provable fairness, but see if they are really following this fairness. And if a site doesn't have, doubt about its authenticity and ask for their provable fairness aspect. There's no reason to play in a site if we they are not transparent with what they are claiming. We are in a big market, there's a lot of casinos here, it's not dominated by one casino only and others are also competitive as well, so I believe a legit site would provide that in order to maintain their clients and to effectively play with the competition in the market. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: harizen on September 08, 2020, 10:31:35 PM To somehow avoid the risks of being cheated, it's always a good practice to bet on a site wherein already established a good reputation in the crypto-gambling industry. No way they will ruin their reputation for that and if ever there's an error (which is possible even by small %), it might be a bug and I'm sure the player will be compensated for reporting it or in a case of loss funds, it will be settled properly. In most of the cases, players do not really verify the fairness of each bet because it's hassle and time-consuming, even on my part. As long as the site is trustworthy, we are just hitting that ROLL without being worried that we are cheated. Kudos to those gambling sites that take care of their reputation by providing a fair gambling environment to their users. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: Oilacris on September 08, 2020, 10:35:03 PM Most of us don't verify our bets if we are playing in a reputable site. When the site is already famous or known then majority of new players wouldnt really mind on checking the provably thing since they have seen that lots of people do play on the site which they do But sometimes we need to do random checks if the site is always keeping their provable fairness in place. The post above will be very helpful also to newbie gamblers, on how to check the provable fairness of a gambling site. Most gambling sites have their own tab of checking provable fairness, but see if they are really following this fairness. And if a site doesn't have, doubt about its authenticity and ask for their provable fairness aspect. presume out already that the site is fair which is most common scenario and ive been like that when i do tend to choose or select other websites when i do saw that there are lots do play then you know its fair specially if there is a tab which you can verify bet then thats already a plus.Some are really that serious on checking out fairness so its suggested to verify out bets specially on a new site. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: seoincorporation on September 09, 2020, 03:36:42 AM Great article, some provably fair casinos can be rigged even if they have a way to verify their bets. Let me explain how it works.
Suppose you have a secret seed and a public seed, you can manipulate the public one but the house is holding the secret one, this way each time we ask for a new seed to the site they can run a simulation with the public seed and select a salty seed. This is why we always have to change the public seed after getting the secret one. I'm not saying casinos do this, i only say it's possible for them to do it. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: imstillthebest on September 09, 2020, 03:39:45 AM Most of us don't verify our bets if we are playing in a reputable site. When the site is already famous or known then majority of new players wouldnt really mind on checking the provably thing since they have seen that lots of people do play on the site which they do But sometimes we need to do random checks if the site is always keeping their provable fairness in place. The post above will be very helpful also to newbie gamblers, on how to check the provable fairness of a gambling site. Most gambling sites have their own tab of checking provable fairness, but see if they are really following this fairness. And if a site doesn't have, doubt about its authenticity and ask for their provable fairness aspect. presume out already that the site is fair which is most common scenario and ive been like that when i do tend to choose or select other websites when i do saw that there are lots do play then you know its fair specially if there is a tab which you can verify bet then thats already a plus.Some are really that serious on checking out fairness so its suggested to verify out bets specially on a new site. every site can place a tab for checking the fairness but that isnt enough . thats useless if a site is still a scam . if there are already players that check thier bets then we shouldnt tire our self anymore because those people already do the job . before , there are complaints against popular casinos and the involved issue were also related to verify fairness . this is an example of what im saying above . Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: mu_enrico on September 09, 2020, 12:56:12 PM Quote There is only one bet that can be considered truly fair and random. That is the very first bet of a seed pair of which the player sets the client seed after the site gives a hashed version of the server seed. The result of EVERY bet after the first is known by the casino and only by the casino! This holds the supposed purpose of provably fair in total contempt. Source. (https://blog.bc.game/the-fundamental-flaw-of-provably-fair/)Agree with the above paragraph. After the first bet with the new seed pair, the casino immediately knows the next results. This opens the possibility of unwanted behavior. Hence, I usually prepare my own random number generator for client seed and randomly change the seed pair as many times as possible. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: arallmuus on September 09, 2020, 03:14:17 PM I'm not saying casinos do this, i only say it's possible for them to do it. Possible to do this on the risk of their whole reputation so probably none would want to risk it but still possible I would really love to see this Provably Fair thing implemented very easily in a tab in the casino where we can do all the above things explained very well by the OP but I have yet to see one casino to implement this Alot of site actually has quite simple provably fair system in place. You could change the server seed in just one click and put in your own random seed anytime you want. You can also verify your bets with just one simple click though I think if they add this the number of players will be bigger and it can be another determining factor when choosing a casino to play. Not really, this is no longer 2016 where everyone is so hype about provably fair and stuff. This is 2020 where there are tons of game with solid animation and stuff to pleasure you. Even Stake put in all those 3rd party game which is not provably fair :P I usually prepare my own random number generator for client seed and randomly change the seed pair as many times as possible. I thought you always play slot from all those 3rd party provider :P In case anyone needs a solid 3rd party provably fair verifier https://www.btcgosu.com/tools/provably-fair-verifier/ Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: AicecreaME on September 09, 2020, 03:30:24 PM I've also read a topic similar to yours wherein provably fair was discussed in a detailed manner. Nonetheless, you did a nice job explaining it briefly and in simple terms.
The gamblers should really verify their bets once in a while to be able to know if there's some kind of manipulation from the house. It would really be time consuming, especially you need to check the hash. But there are tools like what you cited, that could definitely speed up the process of verifying. Majority of gamblers entrust their bets to those reputable websites and casinos. Which is a smart move to do. To trust only those who have a clean name in terms of fairness of the games. But it doesn't guarantee that it won't play a trick on you sooner or later. So better check it always, just to be sure. Most of the time it's human's tendency to ignore what seems unimportant to them, without knowing it'll play a great role/factor from winning the bet (familiarizing just the start and end of hash). I personally think it's the gambler's responsibility and duty to always verify and ensure that they're not being cheated on. Sure, you can trust the website's reputation, but never be so complacent about it. Don't let the house make a fool out of you. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: CarnagexD on September 09, 2020, 04:47:44 PM For a novice in gambling that just wants to play and entertain themselves might find this confusing at all because of the technical terms that is used. That's why the very suggestion of me in involving with gambling platforms is that make sure they are already in the mainstream of the casinos, reputable and already has its foundation beneath the ground. The logic is simple, if just one individual finds out that the casino isn't provably fair, it will explode like a TNT.
Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: Bitcoin Gambling on September 09, 2020, 05:12:16 PM Provably fair is a term that describes a process in which the casino and the player both contribute a value (seed) that is unknown to the other party into a secure hashing algorithm (SHA) along with a round number (nonce). The SHA will combine the three values and output a hexadecimal string that is then used by casinos in their random number generator (RNG). This process is meant to ensure that all the bets were fair and can be verified by the player. This is not applicable for gambling games like Chain-Bet.com (https://www.chain-bet.com), which relies on random number generated on Blockchain itself. This game asks a simple question: What would be last digit of the block hash that includes your transaction? Players guess last digit of the block hash and bet on that. If the guess is correct, player gets back 16 times of the bet amount. There's no way for anyone to know the last digit of a block hash that has not yet been generated. So, this type of games are completely free from worries that you have presented in OP. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: Saint-loup on September 10, 2020, 01:10:10 AM I decided to share an article about Provably fair. I wouldn't call that a Random Number Generator (RNG), because it can't be called "random" if it's deterministic.Provably fair random number generation has been growing in popularity and is being used by more and more casinos as its popularity grows. Sadly, the intentions of some casino operators is not to be more transparent and they only want to be perceived as fair. This is unacceptable. Provably fair is a term that describes a process in which the casino and the player both contribute a value (seed) that is unknown to the other party into a secure hashing algorithm (SHA) along with a round number (nonce). The SHA will combine the three values and output a hexadecimal string that is then used by casinos in their random number generator (RNG). This process is meant to ensure that all the bets were fair and can be verified by the player. And it needs to be deterministic, in order to be verifiable. For a given client seed and a given house seed (and eventually a nonce) you must always get the same result at the end. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: mu_enrico on September 10, 2020, 05:20:53 AM I thought you always play slot from all those 3rd party provider :P The 3rd party, like BGaming, also has provably fair games, so everyone can use the concept.The question is, if the big players can easily implement the provably fair concept, but they didn't use it. WHY? Is that because of flaws? Or more about conspiracy theory... Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: Ucy on September 10, 2020, 08:22:42 AM Initial thought the topic will show that provable fair is flawed or has important flaws or something. From what I read, it looks like the topic is mostly about the possibility that betting sites/casinos don't use real provable fair , or don't use provable fair feature properly. So, players are advised on how to verify this, make sure they are using the feature properly, and how to use provable fair properly, for the sake of fair bets.
Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: leea-1334 on September 10, 2020, 08:36:13 AM Good reminder to everyone in this forum,,, I myself have a very bad habit of only checking the Provably Fair mechanism in the early days of my account, but once I trust the platform, I never check it again. I do believe most of the sites that have been around for years do not actively try to cheat their customers as it would be disastrous for their brand,,, but it is still good practice to always check, especially when you deposit hundreds or thousands of dollars, you owe it to yourself to check the fairness!
Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: bobyhodob on September 10, 2020, 09:01:36 AM Initial thought the topic will show that provable fair is flawed or has important flaws or something. From what I read, it looks like the topic is mostly about the possibility that betting sites/casinos don't use real provable fair , or don't use provable fair feature properly. So, players are advised on how to verify this, make sure they are using the feature properly, and how to use provable fair properly, for the sake of fair bets. unfortunately some gambling places give a provably fair statement that is only what is plastered on the front whereas when gambling sometimes does not match what is written on the website, so still be careful when gambling there, it's better if you use a gambling place that has a good reputation. and many are gambling there.Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: Saint-loup on September 10, 2020, 06:46:07 PM Good reminder to everyone in this forum,,, I myself have a very bad habit of only checking the Provably Fair mechanism in the early days of my account, but once I trust the platform, I never check it again. I do believe most of the sites that have been around for years do not actively try to cheat their customers as it would be disastrous for their brand,,, but it is still good practice to always check, especially when you deposit hundreds or thousands of dollars, you owe it to yourself to check the fairness! Yes I think a thread where (trusted) members would post their report every time they check a provably fair game would be very useful.Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: semobo on September 10, 2020, 08:33:23 PM Rarely people verify their bets even if it is a won or lose because not everyone has that much patience after results, but here community helps them to keep updating about the status of their fairness level from time to time.This thread can be helpful for someone who wants to verify their bet on their own but lot of people claim legit fair casinos as scam because of their mistakes, particularly while verifying the seed, some of them forgot to copy the special characters which gives them invalid results.
Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: cryptomaniac_xxx on September 11, 2020, 08:17:14 AM Perhaps it's better to add a poll if gamblers are really checking or verifying their bets. I'm sure majority don't because they really on "trust". As far as I know gambling sites are different in their Provably Fair implement, but the basic is what the OP has said, [serve seed:client seed:nonce]. I would agree that we shouldn't use the client seed generate by the gambling site, you should always choose your own and better change it for new bet.
Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: Ucy on September 11, 2020, 08:30:32 AM Rarely people verify their bets even if it is a won or lose because not everyone has that much patience after results, but here community helps them to keep updating about the status of their fairness level from time to time.This thread can be helpful for someone who wants to verify their bet on their own but lot of people claim legit fair casinos as scam because of their mistakes, particularly while verifying the seed, some of them forgot to copy the special characters which gives them invalid results. The information and others (assuming they're all very reliable ) could also be guide to experience bettors who wish to spend some time and verify the provable fairness of most of the betting sites that claim "Provable fair". I think those with true/good provable fair feature should be trusted more than those without Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: dimonstration on September 11, 2020, 02:49:26 PM Perhaps it's better to add a poll if gamblers are really checking or verifying their bets. I'm sure majority don't because they really on "trust". As far as I know gambling sites are different in their Provably Fair implement, but the basic is what the OP has said, [serve seed:client seed:nonce]. I would agree that we shouldn't use the client seed generate by the gambling site, you should always choose your own and better change it for new bet. I have seen a casino gambling sites before that also provide a provably fair calculator in their website as they front that their casino offers a provably fair games. While it's not important to those casinos who already built their name and to players who play in old top casinos, the new casino uses this factor atleast to be reviewed or test by some players, they put it to those people who really check fairness of the games even only few checks this it's still a factor for some gambling enthusiast or more in sake of review. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: target on September 11, 2020, 03:37:13 PM Perhaps it's better to add a poll if gamblers are really checking or verifying their bets. I'm sure majority don't because they really on "trust". As far as I know gambling sites are different in their Provably Fair implement, but the basic is what the OP has said, [serve seed:client seed:nonce]. I would agree that we shouldn't use the client seed generate by the gambling site, you should always choose your own and better change it for new bet. I have seen a casino gambling sites before that also provide a provably fair calculator in their website as they front that their casino offers a provably fair games. While it's not important to those casinos who already built their name and to players who play in old top casinos, the new casino uses this factor atleast to be reviewed or test by some players, they put it to those people who really check fairness of the games even only few checks this it's still a factor for some gambling enthusiast or more in sake of review. Hope to see them provide a guide to check the fairness too. I'm not seeing it very easy actaully. I have read some guide how to check but it took me hours to come up after folowing a very complex instruction and in the end its still not a guaranteed verified information since they can randomly change the things on the server side. The only casino that we may be able to see its fairness are the Blockchain Powered Betting that using the tx like Casineos.com :) Just plugging. There are increasing number of casino that uses this Blockchain Powered Betting kind of fair system like the BETHASH.io Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: actmyname on September 11, 2020, 04:11:33 PM Hope to see them provide a guide to check the fairness too. I'm not seeing it very easy actaully. I have read some guide how to check but it took me hours to come up after folowing a very complex instruction and in the end its still not a guaranteed verified information since they can randomly change the things on the server side. Different for each site, but the good ones will hopefully have the functions that you can fit your parameters (of server seed, nonce and client seed) into, to verify that the result on the site corresponded with the mathematical result.The whole reason for using it is so that you can rigorously confirm the validity of each bet. If you're having trouble with that, isn't it a good idea to simply stop betting? After all, you wouldn't play craps with a pair of dice that someone decided to bring in on their own -- you would want to verify... Don't trust, verify. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: dothebeats on September 11, 2020, 04:48:09 PM Checking each seed every bet on a newly-established casino is a good practice to check whether the casino is 'playing' with you, but for an established casino with millions of bets already placed on their name, I guess it will be an isolated case wherein there's a bug that causes the seed to not match the expected outcome. You'll probably be compensated AND rewarded by finding this bug, since the last thing that established and reputable casinos want to happen is users finding about that bug and causing a stir online, hurting their reputation. Points are valid and should be done on new casinos that want to have a name on the game.
Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: Saint-loup on September 11, 2020, 09:07:52 PM Perhaps it's better to add a poll if gamblers are really checking or verifying their bets. I'm sure majority don't because they really on "trust". As far as I know gambling sites are different in their Provably Fair implement, but the basic is what the OP has said, [serve seed:client seed:nonce]. I would agree that we shouldn't use the client seed generate by the gambling site, you should always choose your own and better change it for new bet. I disagree with you the provably fair algorithm could just take the server seed and the client seed as parameters of a hmac function and eventually concatenate the nonce with the seeds before, like the way freebitcoin is doing. You don't need to concatenate the server seed and the client seed to get a provably fair gambling algorithm.Code: 1. Two strings are created : Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: johhnyUA on September 11, 2020, 09:15:38 PM Rarely people verify their bets even if it is a won or lose because not everyone has that much patience after results, but here community helps them to keep updating about the status of their fairness level from time to time.This thread can be helpful for someone who wants to verify their bet on their own but lot of people claim legit fair casinos as scam because of their mistakes, particularly while verifying the seed, some of them forgot to copy the special characters which gives them invalid results. The information and others (assuming they're all very reliable ) could also be guide to experience bettors who wish to spend some time and verify the provable fairness of most of the betting sites that claim "Provable fair". I think those with true/good provable fair feature should be trusted more than those without This is big illusion, the same as "open sourse code". Overwhelming majority of users will never even try to check fairness of their bets just look at the "opportunity to do so" and will be fine with that. At least for the moment, where one (per thousand or more) user will check it and find it to be nor fair. :) This often happens in github, when everyone using some repo, for the moment when it happen to be some malware or something like that. Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: AmoreJaz on September 12, 2020, 01:58:18 AM Rarely people verify their bets even if it is a won or lose because not everyone has that much patience after results, but here community helps them to keep updating about the status of their fairness level from time to time.This thread can be helpful for someone who wants to verify their bet on their own but lot of people claim legit fair casinos as scam because of their mistakes, particularly while verifying the seed, some of them forgot to copy the special characters which gives them invalid results. The information and others (assuming they're all very reliable ) could also be guide to experience bettors who wish to spend some time and verify the provable fairness of most of the betting sites that claim "Provable fair". I think those with true/good provable fair feature should be trusted more than those without This is big illusion, the same as "open sourse code". Overwhelming majority of users will never even try to check fairness of their bets just look at the "opportunity to do so" and will be fine with that. At least for the moment, where one (per thousand or more) user will check it and find it to be nor fair. :) This often happens in github, when everyone using some repo, for the moment when it happen to be some malware or something like that. that is very true! i for one, rarely check the provable fairness of the site. because if you are playing on a respectable site, checking the fairness is out of question. but if you are in doubt about the legitimacy of the site, you can randomly check how provable fairness is working on their end. just like what you have given as example - "open source code" projects. how many people are really looking and scrutinizing their code? Title: Re: The Fundamental Flaws Of Provably Fair Post by: CHRISBIN702 on November 28, 2022, 08:10:33 PM How am I just seeing this thread for the first time? I haven't posted here for a while but I felt compelled to after an internet search on provably fair sent me to this topic. This article referenced is the most honest and non-conformist explanation of provably fair I've ever seen. After reading it, the points made by the author seem very obvious but I was so brainwashed by the 1000s of identical definitions and explanations of provably fair across the forums and casinos that I just accepted that crypto casinos were being the fairest and most transparent they could be. Now I'm not so sure. I did a bit of research before commenting to see if any casinos have actually addressed these problems with their universally approved provably fair methods. The casino that owns the blog where this article is published is the only one, not surprisingly, that uses a different seed pair for each game. Why would this not be made a standard across all sites with provably fair games? It is the only way to guarantee that a casino doesn't push you away from an upcoming win on any game. I've only really checked a few sites. If anyone knows of other sites that have taken this same stance, let me know.......
That would be my honest reaction and reply to this article if I was not the one who wrote it. lol. Thanks for the shout-out. I am a rep for BC.Game but I am happy to say that they updated their provably fair implementation after I wrote this article in response to it. That is why I am still representing. |
