Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Speculation => Topic started by: mamamu111 on October 10, 2020, 09:58:19 AM



Title: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: mamamu111 on October 10, 2020, 09:58:19 AM
Despite an uneventful month for Bitcoin (BTC) price, on-chain metrics suggest that Bitcoin may be gearing for an imminent bull run. Noticeably, the number of Bitcoin held on spot exchanges has been decreasing since the start of the year, according to data from on-chain analytics firms, CryptoQuant, and glassnode. 

READ THE COMPLETE ARTICLE HERE: https://worldpublicityblog.com/index.php/2020/10/09/bitcoin-price-fundamentals-in-rising-mode-as-btc-held-on-exchanges-drops/


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: Febo on October 11, 2020, 07:18:09 PM
Despite an uneventful month for Bitcoin (BTC) price, on-chain metrics suggest that Bitcoin may be gearing for an imminent bull run. Noticeably, the number of Bitcoin held on spot exchanges has been decreasing since the start of the year, according to data from on-chain analytics firms, CryptoQuant, and glassnode. 

READ THE COMPLETE ARTICLE HERE: https://worldpublicityblog.com/index.php/2020/10/09/bitcoin-price-fundamentals-in-rising-mode-as-btc-held-on-exchanges-drops/

I dont see why should number of Bitcoins on exchanges matter. People that will want to sell Bitcoin high will move it to exchange and sell when right price for them happens. They dont need to put it on exchange now and wait for that to happen.  Bitcoin is on a bull run from start of this year. It was cut off with covid situation in march and set on pause a bit back then. But Bitcoin bull is here and will be here for like a year. Bitcoin bull market is not just fro a month. Last bu market was not just in November 2017. Last bull market was from October 2015 to December 2017. Almost 2 years.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: o_e_l_e_o on October 11, 2020, 07:58:40 PM
If you look at the tweet that the article references, it tells a somewhat different story: https://twitter.com/woonomic/status/1313798073995325440

Yes, there was a slight decrease in the amount of bitcoin held on exchanges during the last bull run, but the price had been steadily climbing before that happened, and continued to steadily climb after the number of bitcoin on exchanges started increasing again. The number of bitcoin on exchanges also decreased during the bear market at the start of 2019, and again during the bear market at the start of this year. It's a big stretch to infer that fewer bitcoin on exchanges is directly related to the price, let alone price increases.

Secondly, the number of bitcoin currently on exchanges is more than double (more than triple if you look at the next tweet) than it was 2 years ago.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: Harlot on October 11, 2020, 08:46:42 PM
There whole speculation is based of crypto exchanges having less crypto being held in their system and assuming that people who have withdrawn cryptocurrencies are holding it in their cold storages. I'm not against their assumption but for me in order for this to be true they must at least track the transactions and see if it stayed in that address and it didn't move around after because if it did it will only show that people are not hodling cryptocurrencies but instead using it on other purposes. I don't even think that most traders using exchanges right now are using this kind of way to hold cryptocurrencies as generally from what I know they still buy and hodl their cryptocurrencies directly in the exchanges to avoid fees.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: Yaunfitda on October 11, 2020, 10:23:00 PM
There whole speculation is based of crypto exchanges having less crypto being held in their system and assuming that people who have withdrawn cryptocurrencies are holding it in their cold storages. I'm not against their assumption but for me in order for this to be true they must at least track the transactions and see if it stayed in that address and it didn't move around after because if it did it will only show that people are not hodling cryptocurrencies but instead using it on other purposes. I don't even think that most traders using exchanges right now are using this kind of way to hold cryptocurrencies as generally from what I know they still buy and hodl their cryptocurrencies directly in the exchanges to avoid fees.
Yeah, so it is still inconclusive, because we really don't know what happens to those withdrawn crypto. Maybe the owner move it around and re-invest on altcoins, cash it out or just HODL. Again, this kind of data set doesn't mean anything for now because it can't be track. So this metric could be one of those that it just being used to fit our bullish narrative, which is bad in my opinion.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: blockman on October 11, 2020, 10:23:55 PM
Excluding the new players. The flow of money going back to bitcoin once all of the investors in the Defi products comes back again with their profits from that side and pushing and letting it flow again to the bitcoin market. As usual, a bullish turn is imminent and inevitable. We used to say this from each time whenever we see a start to increase for bitcoin's price and as well as some drops. Because it's the normal characteristic of bitcoin being an asset that's highly volatile.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: Poker Player on October 12, 2020, 03:23:07 AM
The fundamentals of bitcoin are going well, the problem is that the price, especially in the short term, often does not follow them. There were long periods uring the bear market when also the fundamentals were going well. If we were to start with lockdowns again now, I am sure that the price would go to hell.

As for BTC held on exchanges, I agree with the above that it is not essential for price prediction.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: adaseb on October 12, 2020, 05:35:05 AM
One thing that most people need to keep in mind is this. One reason why the exchange holdings drop might be due to margin on most exchanges. Say you are using a spot exchange and you sell 1 BTC at $10000 and keep this to rebuy lower, you would need to keep 1 BTC on the exchange.

Now consider a margin exchange with 3x, instead of keeping 1 BTC you only need to keep around 0.333BTC to sell the same amount. With a futures exchanges you get even more leverage and can do 10x instead and keep 0.10 BTC instead of 1 BTC.

This is important because you can keep most of it on cold storage in case the exchanges get hacked.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: Harlot on October 12, 2020, 10:21:33 AM
~snip
Yeah, so it is still inconclusive, because we really don't know what happens to those withdrawn crypto. Maybe the owner move it around and re-invest on altcoins, cash it out or just HODL. Again, this kind of data set doesn't mean anything for now because it can't be track. So this metric could be one of those that it just being used to fit our bullish narrative, which is bad in my opinion.

That's why I don't readily believe on something I see in the internet because people who are writing articles are also speculating most of the time, for newbies they sound that what they are saying is a sure thing and is really happening but on the article that has been provided you will see that they have not done any kind of research to support their claim that the users are in fact hodling it in their cold storages, it's like they are guessing something without any kind of accuracy whatsoever.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: btc_angela on October 12, 2020, 11:49:41 AM
This is important because you can keep most of it on cold storage in case the exchanges get hacked.

Also it might be that traders are really afraid of hacks now and at least learn some lessons in the past, specially with the recent Kucoin hack. So it's really better to move out our funds from exchanges, hold on the wallet that we have total control. But this is good though, we might not see this as a bullish signal the the BTC held on exchanges are dropping, but the landscape is changing and developing and what we may have seen in 2017 will not be true for 2020 or beyond as the market is very dynamic.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: bitgolden on October 12, 2020, 04:42:28 PM
~snip
Yeah, so it is still inconclusive, because we really don't know what happens to those withdrawn crypto. Maybe the owner move it around and re-invest on altcoins, cash it out or just HODL. Again, this kind of data set doesn't mean anything for now because it can't be track. So this metric could be one of those that it just being used to fit our bullish narrative, which is bad in my opinion.

That's why I don't readily believe on something I see in the internet because people who are writing articles are also speculating most of the time, for newbies they sound that what they are saying is a sure thing and is really happening but on the article that has been provided you will see that they have not done any kind of research to support their claim that the users are in fact hodling it in their cold storages, it's like they are guessing something without any kind of accuracy whatsoever.
That should be something you do for basically everything in life. Most good schools teach you how to learn and not the basic concepts, obviously you will learn mathematics or history or basically any subject but the main thing they teach you is how to learn, every person learns differently but when you know how to learn, you can go out there and learn anything because resources are available for any subject.

Same goes with being a bit syndical about everything that is said, if you take everything in face value and accept it that way, you are not going to be a smart person, you are not going to actually go with what is real, you will believe all the lies, but if you learn how to check everything and find the facts, you will be a lot smarter than almost 90% of humanity. Never just take someone else's words for anything, go check it yourself.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: STT on October 12, 2020, 06:14:34 PM
Less liquidity could also point to inaccuracy in pricing possibly we dont know exactly, I'm not sure it has to favor demand over taking supply.   If there are a large number of buyers holding BTC not just buying, i guess retention off exchange does fit that.

I'm looking at the scenario we repeat last summer also, top out and then revise prices there after which is still a reasonable outcome.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: Gozie51 on October 13, 2020, 06:35:00 PM
Excluding the new players. The flow of money going back to bitcoin once all of the investors in the Defi products comes back again with their profits from that side and pushing and letting it flow again to the bitcoin market. As usual, a bullish turn is imminent and inevitable. We used to say this from each time whenever we see a start to increase for bitcoin's price and as well as some drops. Because it's the normal characteristic of bitcoin being an asset that's highly volatile.

I can also relate the shortage of bitcoin in exchange as Op said to either the DeFi hype that is pushing investors to withdrawal and engage their bitcoin to buy into the new found investment. Hopefully by the time the hype goes down, I guess the shortage won't make any difference. But , I don't really take it that bitcoin shortage in exchange matters or makes anything much difference, people still have their coins in their wallets.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: semobo on October 13, 2020, 08:36:27 PM
I don't see this as a reason for coming bullish trend, people are more skeptical about the security of their crypto assets so they are moving to wallets for holding purpose over the exchange which made the size of exchanges volumes getting reduced while the trading volumes are getting increased day by day.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: gantez on October 13, 2020, 10:41:08 PM
I don't see this as a reason for coming bullish trend, people are more skeptical about the security of their crypto assets so they are moving to wallets for holding purpose over the exchange which made the size of exchanges volumes getting reduced while the trading volumes are getting increased day by day.

The exchange doesn't make the hodling of people any different. You can decide to withdraw your bitcoin or trade it to another coin, that doesn't mean that people are closing up from investing in bitcoin. It is just something that can happen at anytime.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: pooya87 on October 14, 2020, 05:52:48 AM
logically it makes no sense to create this type of connection between lower number of coins on exchanges and price rise. if anything the exact opposite should be happening meaning price rise causes more coins to be on exchanges.
it is a very simple reason too, as price rises we can clearly see that the trading volume increases. even though not all of that volume is new deposits but it is reasonable to assume more traders move their coins to exchanges to trade more during rises (sell on peaks and buy back on corrections for example).


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: beerlover on October 14, 2020, 04:26:05 PM
If there is less money in the exchanges that means there is less money being sold, simple as that. You could still buy bitcoin because there is money in there in fiat form and people still want to buy, but the more bitcoin is taken out of exchanges the more bitcoin scarcity happens which makes the demand high but the supply very low.

It is simple mathematics that when people take their money out of the exchange market they tend to make the bitcoin price go up. This is evident in the recent increases as well, as soon as people started to remove their bitcoins from the exchanges, the price of bitcoin started to go up because let's be honest there was correlation between those two things, the more people withdrew the more the price increased recently after this news.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: exstasie on October 14, 2020, 05:11:28 PM
logically it makes no sense to create this type of connection between lower number of coins on exchanges and price rise. if anything the exact opposite should be happening meaning price rise causes more coins to be on exchanges.

That's the idea, that lower prices encourage accumulation (including buying to withdraw from exchanges), which eventually causes the price to rise. Then higher prices eventually encourages profit taking, causing people to deposit more coins to exchanges. This is the general idea behind the Wyckoff market cycle.

Trying to use this metric for short term analysis ("imminent bull run" says the OP) is pretty futile. Balances may be trending downwards since February, but that doesn't mean price must trend upwards this week or this month.

These are very broad cycles we're talking about.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: FanEagle on October 14, 2020, 06:19:33 PM
Less liquidity could also point to inaccuracy in pricing possibly we dont know exactly, I'm not sure it has to favor demand over taking supply.   If there are a large number of buyers holding BTC not just buying, i guess retention off exchange does fit that.

I'm looking at the scenario we repeat last summer also, top out and then revise prices there after which is still a reasonable outcome.
Less liquidity would mean that but not less volume or trading. Which means if there is less money in the deposits but there is more active that could still mean bitcoin is doing very well. Consider this, lets assume there is 500 million dollars worth of bitcoin in one exchange, but most of them are idle and only 100 million dollars of them are at the market, does that mean it has high liquidity or just have amount of bitcoins?

Consider less money on deposits, let's say there is 250 million dollars worth of bitcoin at that exchange, but over 200 million dollars of it is on the trade book, doesn't that make it a lot more liquid? This is something we have to look for, do we really know if the liquidity went down as well, or was it just the amount that was idle that went down?


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: Jating on October 14, 2020, 10:53:23 PM
logically it makes no sense to create this type of connection between lower number of coins on exchanges and price rise. if anything the exact opposite should be happening meaning price rise causes more coins to be on exchanges.

That's the idea, that lower prices encourage accumulation (including buying to withdraw from exchanges), which eventually causes the price to rise. Then higher prices eventually encourages profit taking, causing people to deposit more coins to exchanges. This is the general idea behind the Wyckoff market cycle.

Trying to use this metric for short term analysis ("imminent bull run" says the OP) is pretty futile. Balances may be trending downwards since February, but that doesn't mean price must trend upwards this week or this month.

These are very broad cycles we're talking about.

Ok it makes sense now, was trying to understand the connection and if I'm not mistaken, there are also reports that the bitcoin addresses now are growing and hit a all time high as well, indication that probably bitcoin enthusiast would rather put their stash on a wallet they have control instead of exchanges that is open for hacks.

And this metric could be good for short term speculation, but then again, there are so many important factors and I think this metric could not be considered as let's say the best parameter to predict short term price.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: CryptopreneurBrainboss on October 15, 2020, 03:36:23 AM
Investors know where to put their money and if its on exchange, I’m sure its a trusted exchange.

Everyone with their assumption, it's funny though as all the assumption I have read could probably been the reason to the reduction of bitcoin observe to be on spot exchanges but the saying that investors stored their coins on trusted exchange is a wrong statement. Anyone doing that is likely some noobs wanna be investors that isn't enlightening yet on the disadvantage of having your funds left on an exchange.

My assumption in regards to the topic, would revolve around the community finally getting the memo on not storing their funds on exchanges. These days you hear less sad stories on how funds were lost as a result of exchange hacking. While this victory is celebrated, we still have to inform the community that these new centralized wallet providers they patronize aren't any different from the exchanges as they're liable to hack too.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: pooya87 on October 15, 2020, 04:28:04 AM
~ there are also reports that the bitcoin addresses now are growing and hit a all time high as well, indication that probably bitcoin enthusiast would rather put their stash on a wallet they have control instead of exchanges that is open for hacks.

And this metric could be good for short term speculation, but then again, there are so many important factors and I think this metric could not be considered as let's say the best parameter to predict short term price.
the problem with metrics like these are that they are affected by a lot of things and the price itself is being affected by lots of different metrics. figuring out how much of that certain metric change was due to adoption and contributes to price rise is nearly impossible.

for example during 2017 we had 2 major things that were contributing to the increased number of addresses in use. the first one was the spam attack which obviously used a ton of different addresses with huge number of new UTXOs. and the second was the shitcoin mining scheme that became popular for a while when they created spam transactions on bitcoin network to mine their shitcoin!
here is an example of fan-out type of spam attack during the last 4 months of 2017:
https://i.imgur.com/lH7KWx7.jpg

of course part of this was indeed the increasing adoption alongside the increasing price but from this UTXO/time chart alongside the fact that spam attack (ie. injecting thousands of spam tx in mempool per second) stopped after the peak of that chart is a good indication of the real reasons.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: lifeOK on October 15, 2020, 05:05:42 AM
I don't see this as a reason for coming bullish trend, people are more skeptical about the security of their crypto assets so they are moving to wallets for holding purpose over the exchange which made the size of exchanges volumes getting reduced while the trading volumes are getting increased day by day.

The exchange doesn't make the hodling of people any different. You can decide to withdraw your bitcoin or trade it to another coin, that doesn't mean that people are closing up from investing in bitcoin. It is just something that can happen at anytime.
Investors know where to put their money and if its on exchange, I’m sure its a trusted exchange. Hodlers are waiting for a new bull moment and yes despite of the dump in the past weeks, we still have the chance to go up the way we predicted bitcoin. Reduced trading volumes might be because of the cheaper bitcoin and they don’t want to sell it on that price.
You're right that Bitcoin has the best brand and most trending topic why it's far superior. Investors and Holders are well aware about it, here we should react immediately according to bitcoin. Bitcoin is controlled by a few whales that's making our job more tough the way we predicted bitcoin previously.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: sana54210 on October 15, 2020, 04:41:47 PM
People are overreacting to everyone, I do not think that price will be suddenly "mooning" all of a sudden, sure it will be doing a bit better than what it did so far, maybe who knows it can reach $13k or even $14k prices, which is not bad and I agree that it is a very good deal for all of us who are keeping our bitcoins, but at the same time we are talking about bitcoin reaching levels it already reached, nothing too shocking, we do all know that reaching $13k-$14k prices are very quite possible, none of that would make us be shocked about it, sure it would be something to be happy about but not really be shocked about.

Hence I believe it is quite important to realize we are in a good situation but not earth shattering situation, it is just a regular good hype that's it.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: stompix on October 15, 2020, 07:44:03 PM
Yes, there was a slight decrease in the amount of bitcoin held on exchanges during the last bull run, but the price had been steadily climbing before that happened, and continued to steadily climb after the number of bitcoin on exchanges started increasing again. The number of bitcoin on exchanges also decreased during the bear market at the start of 2019, and again during the bear market at the start of this year. It's a big stretch to infer that fewer bitcoin on exchanges is directly related to the price, let alone price increases.

So the sexy girl driving a car that smiled at me yesterday was not actually a girl but a man, he was on the bicycle and he didn't smile he shouted at me cause I run across his path  ;D People are really hunting for everything now to try to make an article or prediction out of something, if the price goes up 4 days drops one day, and then goes up again two days it's the exact pattern as 687 days ago when this and that happened and so it will again.

Forgetting about the actual implication of the coins being moved in and from, I'm doubting everything that comes from glassnode, the morons already made fools out of themselve (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5257498.msg54669608#msg54669608)s when they though that Paypal rumors were a trigger to an increase in transactions when in reality it was simply the weekend/workdays routine. With that in mind, I'm taking every info they have on coins sitting in exchanges with a truckload of salt.


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: exstasie on October 15, 2020, 08:26:01 PM
~ there are also reports that the bitcoin addresses now are growing and hit a all time high as well, indication that probably bitcoin enthusiast would rather put their stash on a wallet they have control instead of exchanges that is open for hacks.

And this metric could be good for short term speculation, but then again, there are so many important factors and I think this metric could not be considered as let's say the best parameter to predict short term price.
the problem with metrics like these are that they are affected by a lot of things and the price itself is being affected by lots of different metrics. figuring out how much of that certain metric change was due to adoption and contributes to price rise is nearly impossible.

Totally. This is why I don't generally trade based off fundamentals at all. There are literally millions of reasons why the price can move, too many factors to pinpoint and use in a predictive manner. During bull markets, bad news doesn't matter. During bear markets, good news doesn't matter. Etc.

TA is much more informative to me.

Coindesk offers 3 different possible explanations for this recent growth in Bitcoin address generation. Take your pick. :)

Quote
BitMEX has witnessed an outflow of at least 40,000 BTC (worth around $424 million at press time) since the charges were announced on Oct. 1. Many of these coins have migrated to addresses belonging to major exchanges like Kraken, Binance and Gemini, and a good number of these addresses have been newly generated, according to Alex Melikhov, CEO and founder of Equilibrium and the EOSDT stablecoin. "That has been a viable reason for the spike in new entities," Melikhov told CoinDesk in a Telegram chat.

However, on-chain analyst Cole Garner disagrees, saying the spike in new entities probably represents an entry of new investors into the market and has little to do with the BitMEX issue. That's because the metric has continued to rise over the past five days even though BitMEX withdrawals cooled following an initial spike from Oct. 1–2.

A third theory making the rounds is that Chinese media's recent and unusual reports calling cryptocurrency the year's best-performing asset maybe have caused local investors to put some cash into the bitcoin market.

https://www.coindesk.com/analysts-spike-new-bitcoin-addresses-bitmex-investors


Title: Re: Bitcoin price fundamentals in ‘moon mode’ as BTC held on exchanges drops
Post by: Baofeng on October 15, 2020, 09:08:40 PM
Thanks @exstasie, but I don't know, I still can't made up my mind as to what really cause the drops of BTC held on exchanges. I known that Chinese media, actually I was able to posts it here, but maybe there could be some "lost in translation", so I didn't push it. And then was surprised to see it as one factor to be considered, Lol. Market is really unpredictable, one good lessons that we really learn and most of the time really hard to understood. And yes, TA could be the only metrics to rely in this very dynamic markets we are in.