Bitcoin Forum

Dear community.

I explain my problem to you,
thank you in advance for your help and your future answers.

I live in Switzerland, more particularly in the city of Geneva, and there are several bitcoin ATMs here that allow you to sell or buy bitcoins.

At the time, I managed to win several bitcoins between 2011 and 2012, on an online game whose name unfortunately I don't remember.

At that time, bitcoin was barely worth $ 30 ... for years I didn't touch these bitcoins, with the passing years I had even forgotten them in my head.

I sent sums from wallet to wallet.

I was also on a platform called rahakott which had a built-in mixer.
this platform has since closed, and the site is no longer accessible. 

with the rate which has climbed, since 2019 I have regularly used the ATMs in Geneva, which are made available by a single operator.

I think I had to sell bitcoins for a considerable amount, last week,
I went to this same machine, to sell 2000 chf of bitcoin, but this time the machine blocked my transaction, and didn't  have come out with absolutely nothing in money.

So I made the decision to call the operator with my phone, which told me that I had to write a complaint email to support.

thing I do and explain the situation, they return me a form (KYC) that I have to fill out, and that I've never had to fill out until then.

in good faith I filled out the form and also scanned my identity card.

in the first email they sent me they stipulate that they will release the money as soon as the form is returned to them.

however this is not what they did, they ask me for proof of the origin of the financial funds. I explained to them that I had won these bitcoins 9 years ago, and that unfortunately I did not have this proof.

but they insist.  this is now the 25th mail exchange with them.

where I explain to them that I cannot provide them with this information.

by also explaining to them that the rahakott service no longer exists.  In addition I believe that my bitcoins were mixed on this wallet.  they absolutely claim the TXIDs as soon as possible.

I find myself in a really uncomfortable situation.  because apparently over a year I will have withdrawn a lot of money from their ATMs.  I don't know how to justify this money, and I feel like I've been trapped in the alienation of btc all these years.

I find it absurd to have to think about capturing screenshots or evidence that goes back 9 years.

how would I have known at the time that I should have kept these screenshots?

do you know what I risk on a legal point of view or with justice?  this story haunts me, and I don't know what else to do to justify what they want.

please help me !
Thanks you very much

Well.. i think my suggestion will need extra efforts for you.
You can put your wallet address through this site : https://blockchair.com/
Then From there you can follow the previous transaction flow. From the transaction flow, it can be seen what year your address was first created, where the transaction goes and others.

It is understandable why that ATM provider insisted you to explain from where you have your bitcoin. Their main reason may be coz of this : https://www.coindesk.com/hackers-drain-kucoin-crypto-exchanges-funds

I hope others member in forum can help you with the short way rather than my long way.

thank you for your help.

unfortunately since that time I have changed my computer and wallet several times.  as i specified the rahakott wallet had a built-in mixer and i am unable to trace transactions.

what worries me today is to know if this operator wants me to justify all the withdrawals that I made from them, or if this does not only concern the 2000 chf mentioned.

what worries me is also the legal aspect.  and in what situation I found myself in spite of myself.

During the exchanges of mails with the operator, the operator sent me a link concerning money laundering, apparently they have a doubt about the source of the funds and that is why they insist non stop.

I had to tell them in writing at least 10 times that I couldn't give them more information, but they keep telling me that I have to pass the information as soon as possible.

Well.. that built-in mixer for sure is one of big trouble to follow your money flow.
Yeah.. they charged you back is still possible. Perhaps your first deposit in your rahakott wallet could be useful.

Man, I think this could be a very serious problem for you in the future. I hope you have prepared for that kind situation.
All the best for you,

I have already spoken to my lawyer.  I have to see her tomorrow morning regarding this matter.

Since we are talking about Bitcoin ATMs here in your country and email talks are proven ineffective I think the next step for you to do is to approach a legal counsel telling that this company is witholding your cryptocurrencies. Explain to your legal counsel that they are insisting for you to provide proof that your Bitcoin came from winnings in betting and you don't have any evidence for that since you have won it 9 years ago where compliance and regulations are not that strict. Also provide them your tx id where you send your Bitcoin in as well as the email exchange you have with their customer support.

Uhmm.. i think you misleading. It is not about "company is withholding cryptocurrencies" only, it is about "source" where he got the bitcoins from. Just suggestion, perhaps you can read the entire story as written in thread more clearly (especially about the exchanges).

I have already shown the emails exchanged to my lawyer.

my lawyer is not familiar with cryptocurrency, but is familiar with finance laws.  on the other hand, she judged that they were very insistent in the emails, she also found insistent on the part that they constantly ask me to provide them with proof of origin of the financial funds.

I have however explained several times that I could not provide this, and I explained the reasons to them in writing.

I don't know what to do to further satisfy their request.

I think you have to change your lawyer: Crypto are different from FIAT, so if you choose a lawyer with crypto skills you will have more chances....

Sorry OP,
Was rahakott wallet the only wallet you used to transfer winnings from the online game?
About rahakott wallet, did they not provide you with a 12 word seed phrase which you could use to recover your addresses in another wallet such as electrum?

The easiest way to prove that at least you owned the funds at one point is have the address that held the funds, transaction IDs and proof that you are the owner of the address through a signed message (this would mean that you have to be able to access the private key of the address)

Bitcoin ATMs have a certain limit that they need to stay under per day to be considered complaint. So if you went to this ATM everyday and kept withdrawing the max limit they probably got no other business from anybody else.

So they decided to KYC you to be able to make your withdraws larger however the red flag was the mixer. I think if you mined these BTC directly back in 2009 it would be easy to prove but since you won them and mixed them it gets very difficult to prove that they are legit. Hence why you are in this mess.

Coinbase is similar if you send funds from a mixer or casino they will hold those funds also unless you can prove the source of funds.

I understand better now and I thank you for your explanation.
should i worry about the legal aspect?

Or should I just put aside these 2000 chf and this whole story will end there?

Thanks for your help

This is not misleading. He have to open up about the situation of the matter cause the Bitcoin ATM provider may abuse the KYC/AML of the EU government cause nothing proof the BTC will giving to the authorities if the OP wasn't able to give the proof and if the OP also skip the issue now it look like hes the source of the BTC are dirty.

Import the wallet or getting the BTC transaction ID as proof is out of the picture because the OP the rahakott wallet has an inbuilt mixer features which will make it impossible to ger tx ID or wallet history even if the wallet has seeds.

You need to find a cryptocurrency legal adviser there which will tell you all what you need to do cause the reason why the Bitcoin ATM provider increased their KYC/AML laws is because of the new crypto rules released by the EU government this year cause they are planning to make crypto mainstream there.


Yes, you need to be worry about the legal aspect cause your name is already on there watching list and the best thing you can do to end this whole story is to seek crypto legal advise.

With that problem you do have, I think what you certainly need is an assistance from a legal counsel that is knowledgeable about crypto and not just fiat although both are related when it comes to finance. You must seek a tight attention about it on how you are going to deal with the operator after you have provided all the information needed aside from where the funds of yours originated for you have mentioned that it was already closed since it was already 9 years since then. I duly understand the part of the operator for they are just verifying the source for you might be trying to withdraw a real big amount from Bitcoin since the value is incomparable from the price of $30 now it was already beyond $10,000. I do hope that this case of yours will be fixed for you do deserve it.

The amount in talks is about $10000+ converted from that 2k CHF. This one do really need some assistance on legal counsel yet you can really able trace them up and able to give out proofs that those

funds were really in your possession and not really in other sources.I do understand that they do just really doing their security if there are suspicious transactions would occur and op had already
sent out 25 emails without getting any response? Its just right that he would take it into legal action rather than sitting and waiting up for their reply.

The hard thing here is that he cant really prove out that those funds came from a mixer on rahakoot.

next time just use p2p exchange like localcrypto to cash in your crypto asset.

what worries me more, it is not being able to prove the entries of money on the account rahakott, on the legal aspect.

I'm afraid I'm the subject of money laundering in this whole thing.  The rahakott wallet had a built-in mixer, and I'm also worried that I would collect dirty money from a third party in the mixing as a result, if that were the case, it exposed me in spite of myself to a very  big problem.

I checked with my lawyer, and my lawyer told me that if the organization that provides the atm has any doubt about the source of the funds they are obliged to notify the LBA, in Switzerland it is a service information on money laundering.

Since you live in a nation that has very good laws, you could report them to authorities. Nobody in Switzerland has the right to confiscate your money and get away with it.

If you tried to cash out your bitcoins the result could have been different because you would have to explain to people that you spent bitcoin which not every law agency understands, but this is different, you have sent them your fiat and they didn't do anything in return, which means you could talk to even police and report them and tell them that they are not giving your money back, which is when you cal sue them as well after the report.

Wish you could tell me how much you won in the games 9years ago,  how you found/recoverd the bitcoins, and when last you moved the bitcoins before finally deciding to sell.

I think you should let them know that Bitcoin wasn't worth much back then when you won the coins, the kyc requirement wasn't much in existence when you won/own the coins,  you didn't bother to note the site names back then and that the games that won you the money are good/safe.
I think this should make them treate yours as a special case and help get them release the coins more quickly, when they are satisfied. Would also be helpful if you could provide them with some proofs that you are the real owner of the coins and have been owning them unmoved for that long.

How do they know this information? Does the ATM forces you to scan your ID every time or did you volunteer that information on your own? I ask because if the ATM was asking for your ID then this situation would have happened to you eventually and you should have prepared yourself for it or you should have avoided those ATMs and try P2P trading with local people in oder to avoid this issue, but regardless of the way they found out you will have to do a lot of explaining so I think it is the right idea that you have hired a lawyer for this.

Of all the discussion this is just what pops into my mind.
Is the Bitcoin ATM owner really trying to abide by the law or just trying to get away with all that bitcoins they took?
That might be the question you want to ask your lawyer next.

It's a damn bitcoin ATM where mostly you don't need to disclose anything. It's a direct buy and sell machine. (most are just for purchase)
Money launderers will avoid them since they put high tx fees.
If you win this, you might want to kick back and let them pay for the waste of time they put in you.

There is no EU government and Switzerland is not part of the EU.

The funds are not confiscated they are frozen, and yes any licensed financial operator has the right to freeze accounts or sum transfers.


Let's start with the basics.
You did multiple transactions, were all the previous transactions in which you sent coins to the ATM operator from the same address?
Or, simply, can they link you to other cash withdrawals based on that?

Now, to solve it there are two possibilities:
a) talk to the operator and ask them if it's still possible to return your cryptos to your address, or at least the $ equivalent of prices have changed in your advantage and they don't want to incur a loss if so take the offer and finish with them
b) if the above is not possible and they are not willing to release your funds as days have passed it's clear you have to go the legal path, so you will have to contact your financial ombudsman which I assume is FINMA in your case and ask them for help. Remember that

Combine the two and think what the best solution, and when thinking of dropping everything and take the loss think that you have already sent them documents, so most likely they will have to report you, either way, they can't simply stash your coins in the pockets and ignore the laws, especially since they don't know if you're contacting or not a lawyer, they will not risk embezzlement.

One more thing,
assuming your story is true, shouldn't those addresses in your wallet show absolutely no incoming funds for the last 9 years?

no, apparently according to my lawyer they should have long since submitted to me to fill in the kyc form.  they ask and insist on the source of financial funds to protect themselves I think, probably because of the self-regulating body which monitors them above.

I voluntarily filled out the form and sent my identity card by email, when the transaction was blocked I called the operator with my phone, that's when they asked me to send  an email of complaint to the technical service, which I did, they then said that they went to release the funds after giving them this information but they have now insisted for two weeks on the provenance.

They are looking for your source of income. They have regulations about getting some KYC for their valued customers. Don't you have a job or perhaps small business to show off some documents? This is no difference from some local crypto exchanges that I had also experienced. Requiring me to submit KYC, ID and proof of income or financial documents.
 
 Op, they will not accept your reasons of winning that bitcoin of yours before. For them, it is maybe a form of money laundering even if it is not. So they need some proofs that you need to show them off. However, you can still talk to the representative who handles the KYC, who knows? Maybe he/she will gonna accept your letter and KYC alone.