Bitcoin Forum

Competition is heating up in Europe, while the US are Hostages of Grayscale waitign for their first ETF:

Valour Launches World's First Fee-Free Bitcoin Exchange Traded Product (ETP) (https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/valour-launches-world-s-first-fee-free-1-bitcoin-exchange-traded-product-etp-1029860248?op=1)


After a few other Bitcoin ETP (Exchange Traded Products) came to Europe, a new product with zero management fee will begin trading today the Stockholm Nordic Growth Market stock exchange.

The ETP will come in two Flavours, SEK and EUR traded products, both with SEK as Base Currency

 Bitcoin Zero On Valour Website (https://valour.com/products/#button-2)

	SEK		EUR
	https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/16/blobdb020feb64848124.png		https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/16/blobdb020feb64848124.png
	https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/16/blob479028abf8b58fdb.png		https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/16/blob846456fd357e945d.png
	FactSheet SEK (https://assets.ctfassets.net/l61jgzfj46lz/PsvFygrZYVJhfTbVgUpdB/f20e2abf86edf0f39ef5186068d1379a/Factsheet_BTC_ZERO_SEK.pdf)		FactSheet EUR (https://assets.ctfassets.net/l61jgzfj46lz/1p0z6o30tfiGXABUyBSKV8/c680556f1aa15e972aa61c2a16c17c82/Factsheet_BTC_ZERO_EUR.pdf)

Link to Prospectus (https://assets.ctfassets.net/l61jgzfj46lz/2enc109t01XlQxjuic4WDO/f3b3cab0ba9065d3c0e2a7b35e26aa67/Valour_BTC_Zero_Prospectus.pdf)

Link to Bitcoin Zero final terms (https://assets.ctfassets.net/l61jgzfj46lz/4GjzlnXPCAzh0CHFRFU60j/04eb44791dcac0aedde54577c22ddf6e/BTC_Zero_Final_Terms_EUR_EN.pdf)

Great news, thank you for sharing this.

This is another breakthrough for Bitcoin, considering that Valour also acquires bitcoin now as an asset and provided the Bitcoin Zero for investors which denotes that they are now embracing its worth.  The bitcoin zero as I see it isn't bad that they offer it with zero management fee.

Though I'm not sure if it will be for good or maybe just for the initial offering.  We can't tell if the US right now is also cooking something which could also lead to a better perspective towards bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies in 2021.

In a year where BTC has tripled it's original value. This is a very important move, as his will encourage investors to further make investments and engagement with the Cryptocurrency

It always concerns me to see the race to zero when talking about financial related products. At some point along the way the manager of this ETF has to be making money off you and I actually prefer when they tell you up front where they make their money without burying it in the fine print. I am more than happy to pay a small fee in return for the knowledge that someone has a financial incentive to protect my money over the long term.

Like buying shares, that's it. The financial jurassic circus is opening up all these old jurassic financial instruments to give some sort of bitcoin exposure to old financial riches. If that's all we can have to reach moon, so be it. I will always stick to my glourious unspent transaction outputs.
 8)

Just a little nitpick here: this is not an ETF, it is an ETP. It actually it is a certificate. A certificate is a financial structured product (basically a zero coupon bond and an option) that doesn’t include any management fee. The issuer and the market makers of this product rely on other sources of income, like for example the bid-offer spread in the market.


You are one of the few. Not everyone is in your privileged position. There are lots of investors who cannot, simply, hold coins. For those people the only way is trough financial structures like this one or other similar products (BTCE, Grayscale or other Exchange Traded Funds).

I think it's good to see investors having more and more options how to trade Bitcoin, competition is something that we should welcome, but how do they make money if they have zero fees? I hope there's no hidden fees or other tricky mechanisms that in the end overcharge investors.


I'd say it's too early to call the non-crypto markets "old jurassic", there's really no alternative to them. DeFi is a failure, DEX ecosystem is just a tiny beta-test, Bitcoin itself is only an asset or a currency, it can't do everything.

I guess what I wrote was clear because I am only saying that instead of leveraging the real deal (bitcoin as an asset) they are re-branding it for the oldies so that they are more accustomed to something they already know. Being a bitcoiner I will stick to the real deal leaving them playing with the synthetic drug. Easy.
I believe that not grasping the very characteristics for investing in bitcoin (scarcity, censorship resistance, easy transferability...) is a big mistake.

Interesting to see an ETP with 0% management and year fees, but I'm always concerned when I see something being marketed as Free.

Where is the catch, how are they making money?

When it gets rebranding under custody, does the true value of bitcoin gets manipulated for the rebranded one. As mentioned it is made for the old Riches to get into the market. As they're much into traditional form of investments, this form will give way for them. I do believe this to create something bad to the cryptomarket.

There are definitely hidden fees. If you read the prospectus, there are daily management fees subtracted from the reference value of the certificates. They just do it in a sneaky way so they can say there no fees, when in fact the fees are higher than Grayscale:



The way they wrote the prospectus was deceptive too. All the examples in Section 1.8 (which are supposed to show how returns work on this product) include a foreign exchange rate change that conveniently hides the management fee.

I'm not impressed!

Very Good find.
Apparently I read the prospect too quickly, and was complacent with the fact many other certificates are actually free of management fees.
2.5% is outrageous.

It seems that you have not read the article carefully, the below paragraph has been adjusted and management fee is even higher than Grayscale. So reread the article and give your true point of view.

Valor is really confusing the Crypto community at the moment, and this is a big minus to me for Valor's reputation. And be sure not to shill this news unless you are unfamiliar with Valor's plot. Thanks. ;)

Well, things escalated quickly.

First I used my Twitter account to cast shame on Valour

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/16/blobd487bfbbcea235f2.jpeg
https://twitter.com/fillippone1/status/1336279832456548353?s=20

But they answered almost immediately:

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/16/blobc261c6930600b70e.jpeg
https://twitter.com/ValourGlobal/status/1336324246650273793?s=20

So yes, fees are actually zero as you can see from Bitcoin Zero final terms (https://assets.ctfassets.net/l61jgzfj46lz/4GjzlnXPCAzh0CHFRFU60j/04eb44791dcac0aedde54577c22ddf6e/BTC_Zero_Final_Terms_EUR_EN.pdf), where we read:

https://talkimg.com/images/2023/05/16/blobf71a90271cca1ef3.jpeg

This is why I had miss the information when I first checked. It’s a common practice for certificates issuers to have a “master prospectus” that fixes the general rules, only to be amended, where necessary, by each certificate final terms. So each certificate is ruled by the master prospectus integrated by the rules in the final terms, that have an higher priority on the certificate itself.

Case closed

Valor has announced the launch of an ETP based on the dex uniswap UNI token on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange. "This is the first—ever Uniswap-based ETP offered to investors on traditional stock exchanges," said Russell Starr, executive chairman of DeFi Technologies. CEO Diana Biggs says that Valor Uniswap will give investors access to decentralized financing.
https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/valour-inc-a-subsidiary-of-defi-technologies-launches-world-s-first-uniswap-exchange-traded-product-894963877.html

Good news. Most countries in the west do allow investing in other jurisdictions, so effectively Europe may be taking the lead and being less restrictive than the US. I think that the real revolution would come from China actually allowing their citizens to invest their money safety. I obviously mean the average citizen. But meanwhile, we will now have another alternative. I really hope it gets approved to be used in tax wrappers in different states.

Quick question, when I see zero fees my next question is how do they earn their living? What would I pay for?

Excellent but I’m not sure if this instrument will be available to trade globally? I mean this would be by means of trading platform so in the end it has to be international one I guess?

Or will it be still available through normal crypto exchanges who also offers the real world trading instrument ?

Can anyone also shed some light on difference between ETF and ETP. Just the alternate terms or they hold the bigger meaning in themselves.

Talking about China in that context is completely unthinkable, do you expect the Chinese Communist Party to allow the average resident of their country to practice free will in anything, let alone do with their money what they want? You have not had the misfortune to live in communism, but those who are like me will only say that it is another word for hell on earth.

Everything China has done towards Bitcoin is a clear indication of their intentions, and they may become the world's first economic power, but their citizens are light years away from what some Western countries have today.

The problem with such ETP products is that they are certificates. The underlying value (i.e. Bitcoin) is not deposited as collateral. If the issuer goes bankrupt, the certificates become worthless. Just as with many previous exchange-traded products such as ETNs (exchange-traded notes).

The situation is different with ETFs, where the underlying value is deposited physically or it is replicated synthetically with other products (e.g. shares).
Unfortuantely, many do not know the difference and often equate ETPs and ETNs with ETFs.

Indeed.
Certificates bear the issuer’s credit risk. Usually bigger firms issue those certificate via a dedicated, credit immaculate vehicle. But your point is totally correct.

The first time I read that they offer zero management fees, it provoked suspicion how an investment company dared to claim such a thing. It's clear in prospectus that it's not really zero even after counting higher than Greyscale as @exstasie said.

But to be honest, I support various derivatives of Bitcoin because whatever product is produced has its own market, we might not be interested because basically we already understand and know what BTC is like and how, but for those who don't want to be complicated with asset security because buying BTC in large quantities or set when to sell or buy then the best choice is a product like this.

It's true, sometimes people can't tell the difference between ETP, ETN, and ETF and even I myself still often confuse the terms. But again, whatever it is after the momentum of the approval of the Bitcoin ETF, although it is still futures and not yet in the spot, there have been many adoptions of BTC products that should be able to reach a wider community.

Valour Inc., the first issuer of products traded on ETPs, exceeded $300 million AUM in ten months of 2021, thus AUM increased by more than 3091% since the beginning of the year. Over the past 15 days, AUM has increased by more than $50 million. https://valour.com/press/valour-inc-defi-technologies-wholly-owned-subsidiary-reaches-record-ususd300

In the meantime BITO ETF has almost 1.3 billions of AuM in a little bit more than 10 trading days (having surpassed 1 BLN in just three days.
Tha is another league.

It is reported that on February 14, Valour received an ETP listing based on Polkadot (Valour Polkadot (DOT) EUR) and Cardano (Valour Cardano (ADA) EUR) ETPs on the Frankfurt Stock Exchange, which will allow retail and institutional investors to gain access to DOT and ADA tokens.

Source: https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/defi-technologies-launches-valour-polkadot-and-cardano-etps-on-the-frankfurt-stock-exchange-822409842.html

Dear Lord! The shitcoin is powerful with this products.

Jokes aside, just remember not everything has a value, but everything has a price: many investors are interested in these products only because they exhibit some volatility. The just want to speculate on short term price fluctuations.