Bitcoin Forum

Economy => Exchanges => Topic started by: LibertyShire on December 23, 2020, 11:25:29 PM



Title: Investment Platform
Post by: LibertyShire on December 23, 2020, 11:25:29 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: mk4 on December 24, 2020, 03:00:51 AM
Only use exchanges for their sole purpose: BUYING or SELLING cryptocurrencies; NOT holding.

For holding coins, use non-custodial wallets. Learn more about them here: https://notyourkeys.org/


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: GreatArkansas on December 24, 2020, 03:16:13 AM
Agree with mk4. You should first identify the risks of holding your cryptocurrencies within exchanges.
There are a lot of ways to invest in cryptocurrency, after you bought your cryptocurrencies, you can already store them in your personal wallet, which you hold the private keys, you can guarantee that you are the only one who has access to your cryptocurrencies. There are a lot of crypto wallets, try here (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1631151.0) or you can also buy some hardware wallet if you want.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: goinmerry on December 24, 2020, 03:41:15 AM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.

Just use Binance and Coinbase for the convenience of buying, selling, trading but not in terms of holding your coins for long.

If the purpose is just to hold, then stored your coins at those wallets where you hold your own private key.
https://bitcoin.org/en/choose-your-wallet?step=5

But that's not the end to that as you will now be the one who will make it secure.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: maydna on December 24, 2020, 04:53:39 AM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.

No, that is a bad idea to hold some crypto in exchange, any exchanges, because you don't control your money and give the exchanges access. I suggest you use another wallet, whether it is a hardware wallet, software wallet, or mobile wallet, to store all of your coins so that you can control your investment. You will lose your investment if something happens to the exchanges, and you can't do anything except waiting for the exchanges to refund your funds. And if you want to sell your coins, you can send them to the exchanges and get the money back to your wallet or your bank account.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: LUCKMCFLY on December 24, 2020, 05:02:52 AM
What people always look for is security, the agreement is in Binance and Coinbase, their security is good, it should be noted that Binance received an attack where it was fought very quickly, however there are many coins that are Pump and Dump, the best For Holdear it is Bitcoin, the other cryptocurrencies only depend on Bitcoin, as you have been told before, use the Exchange to buy and sell, the negotiations at that level turns out to be much better.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Reid on December 24, 2020, 05:20:44 AM
Never keep your coins in an exchange.
That's the worse decision you will make especially if you are keeping it long term.

Better invest with hardware wallet first and keep it all there.
Sure you can buy cryptocurrencies in Binance but you will never know when they will shut down.
So, it would be best to keep it yourself rather than using a third party.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: passwordnow on December 24, 2020, 05:54:00 AM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.
Yes, they are good as an exchange but if you want to keep it here then that's the problem and the bad idea starts. You don't wholly your cryptos there if you allow it to be kept there for a long time. Before buying a specific crypto on Binance or as such, search for the main wallet that it has or any wallet that supports it which gives you the private key. It is the most important part of owning a wallet, to hold your own private keys. If you still got no idea which is the best wallet to keep your cryptos for long time, hardware wallet is the best for many of us here. Like, Ledger wallet and Trezor.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: harizen on December 24, 2020, 06:16:31 AM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.

It's always good to buy crypto for a long-term investment plan but to keep or save it on exchanges or to what platform did you buy it, that's a wrong move.

Yes, Binance and Coinbase are some of the big exchanges today, and the chances of them turning into sh*t exchange is so far won't likely to happen, but are you willing to store your coins on a third-party?

If you regularly doing some trades, then it's just fine to keep your coins there but always do some casual withdrawals just to be safe. But if you don't plan on doing that, then do some research about non-custodial wallets.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Jawhead999 on December 24, 2020, 09:10:51 AM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ?
There's another alternatives such as Nexo, crypto com,celcius network and block fi or you can invest in casino bankroll, but there's a risk if you funds can be frozen and ended up lossing all of your coins. If you think 5-8% APY is worth to take the risk, go for it.

Actually it's a bad idea to hold inside exchanges for long time since many exchanges has been hacked multiply until now

Read : Hacked Exchanges since 2011 (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5090869.0)


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: mk4 on December 24, 2020, 06:34:30 PM
What people always look for is security, the agreement is in Binance and Coinbase, their security is good, it should be noted that Binance received an attack where it was fought very quickly, however there are many coins that are Pump and Dump, the best For Holdear it is Bitcoin, the other cryptocurrencies only depend on Bitcoin, as you have been told before, use the Exchange to buy and sell, the negotiations at that level turns out to be much better.

It sure seems like Binance and Coinbase are pretty secure due to their cold wallets being unbreached. Though yes both seem to be great platforms(security wise), let’s not forget that giant exchanges like MtGox and Bitfinex were also deemed “very secure” by a lot of people in the past. And we all know how it ended..


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: thesmallgod on December 24, 2020, 07:28:20 PM
Never keep coin on exchange for long time because of hacks or security bridge which might result in losing your cryto asset. Take for instance if you have purchased coin on cryptopia before the hack and you keep it there for long time. You probably will be regretting by now. Secondly, there is nothing bad in long term investment on crypto especially on bitcoin and ethereum which you can buy from centralized exchange such as binance but in case you are considering investing huge amount for long term gain then you should be ready to withdraw your coin and store on non custodian wallets. Hardware wallet is one of the safest means through which you can store your coin


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: DarkDays on December 24, 2020, 09:18:25 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.
If buying and holding is your plan then I think Binance is a good place to start. Though, if you are no going to do any trading then you should not keep it on the Binance's wallet, best to keep your funds on a cold wallet.

Alternatively, you could put your coins to 'work' by locking them up via staking so you get some % interest but you'll have to lock them up for a period of time.

Another option is to keep them on a savings platform like Nexo where you earn a set % for each of your coins. So a few options for you, best of luck!


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Lhaine on December 24, 2020, 10:35:48 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.

You can buy it there but for storing you need to transfer it to your own wallet and save your keys. It's not good idea to use exchange for holding any crypto currency for long time ,since you will never know what will going to happen to that exchange for long term compare to holding it to your own wallet which is much secured it's for your own safety  and you are able to open it any time as longa s you save the keys. Even it takes 5 or 10 years.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: TimeTeller on December 24, 2020, 10:41:30 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.

You can buy it there but for storing you need to transfer it to your own wallet and save your keys. It's not good idea to use exchange for holding any crypto currency for long time ,since you will never know what will going to happen to that exchange for long term compare to holding it to your own wallet which is much secured it's for your own safety  and you are able to open it any time as longa s you save the keys. Even it takes 5 or 10 years.

I hope the OP is reading all these valuable posts and at least considering those suggestions.
As others have said, better store your coins in your own wallet. If he's planning it to store for long time.
Even top exchanges are vulnerable to attacks. Though Binance has SAFU as insurance to its users, but it is still best to hold your coins on your own.
When your coins is in your own wallet, you have the full control of what's gonna happen to your funds.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: nelson4lov on December 24, 2020, 10:50:57 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.

In my opinion, the only time you can store your crypto on exchanges is when you're actively trading them. Otherwise, it's just best to use them for the services they render. That is - to exchange your crypto. Since you're considering investing long term, I would suggest you buy whatever crypto you want on binance and then you move them to a wallet which you own the private keys . When that's done, you can check the value of your assets/investment at periodic intervals. That is the recommended approach.

With all the exchange hacks this year, the best way to stay afloat the crypto ecosystem is to take full custody of your assets.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: samcrypto on December 24, 2020, 11:01:48 PM
Only use exchanges for their sole purpose: BUYING or SELLING cryptocurrencies; NOT holding.

For holding coins, use non-custodial wallets. Learn more about them here: https://notyourkeys.org/
I’m not aware that Binance offer an investment plan which I think is not the core of a trading exchange and I really have to agree on this one because their purpose is to facilitate the buy and sell activities of their customer. Holding big money on exchanges is not a good one even if its on Binance, you have to get your own wallet which you can control, this is the safest thing that you can do instead of putting big money on exchanges.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: carlfebz2 on December 24, 2020, 11:31:18 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.
Dont make these exchange platforms to be your main wallet specially if you do store up your coins. Always remember "Not your keys, not your coins".

When these platforms or exchange would be hacked then theres no chance for you to recover those funds you have stored into that place.

Make use of this when you are just trading off or buying coins in that place and then pull it out if you are already done with your transaction.
Store your coins in non-custodial wallets like Electrum for Bitcoin or Myetherwallet for erc20 etc.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: goaldigger on December 24, 2020, 11:52:36 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.
The good idea here is that to buy a good coin and you can hold it for long but never to trust any exchanges, if you’re planning to become a hodler then use your own wallet, and a more secure wallet which you can use any time you want. I like Binance on how they work to improve their system, but I don’t like to hold huge money on any exchanges.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Coin_trader on December 24, 2020, 11:52:43 PM
What people always look for is security, the agreement is in Binance and Coinbase, their security is good, it should be noted that Binance received an attack where it was fought very quickly, however there are many coins that are Pump and Dump, the best For Holdear it is Bitcoin, the other cryptocurrencies only depend on Bitcoin, as you have been told before, use the Exchange to buy and sell, the negotiations at that level turns out to be much better.

It sure seems like Binance and Coinbase are pretty secure due to their cold wallets being unbreached. Though yes both seem to be great platforms(security wise), let’s not forget that giant exchanges like MtGox and Bitfinex were also deemed “very secure” by a lot of people in the past. And we all know how it ended..

The security advancement during MtGox and Bitfinex are far different from the current security advancement of the current well known exchange like Binance and Coinbase. Binance has an insurance incase a security breach happened which we already saw in the past when they experience an attack. Regulators is also more aggressive right now compared before that's why exchange can easily runaway.

Besides, Exchange is the most profitable business on crypto industry. I believe they are pretty heavily invested on there security system compared before.

But still, Exchange Should not be use to hold crypt for long term since you don't have full control of your funds.  :)


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Kelvinid on December 25, 2020, 01:48:24 AM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.
There are a lot of trading platforms in the market but don't overthink that it makes good for you as it also depending on your capabilities.
If you heard about bad things toward Coinbase, you might possibly hear also the same about Binance. It is because some traders didn't find themselves comfortable with them and that also they suffered losses making them say that this exchange is bad.

I suggest you to choose exchanges that have a huge market volume because this will simply mean that many traders and investors are trusting them.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: yhiaali3 on December 25, 2020, 02:49:32 AM
If you want to invest in the long term, you should hold your coins on your wallet that owns its private keys such as a desktop wallet or cold wallets such as Ledger or Trezor because these wallets are safe, I never advise you to hold your coins on exchanges such as Binance or CoinBase because they are not safe and they can block you as happened With me, Binance and Coinbase have banned me because I am from a prohibited country, so you have to pay attention otherwise you could lose your coins.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Ridwan Fauzi on December 25, 2020, 03:11:16 AM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.
Binance is a good exchange indeed, a few times ago when a bad thing happen they replace all the user fund and also they promise that the incident is the last because they will tighten their security so that hackers can't get into their security system. However, it does not guarantee that their security system is safe by hackers, hackers must have many ways to hack them back. So, I don't think a good idea for someone who have an intention to hold their bitcoin a long term investment in the exchange. As other people above me said you must choose cold wallet to store your bitcoin, the security is depend on your hand.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: mk4 on December 25, 2020, 03:35:55 AM
The security advancement during MtGox and Bitfinex are far different from the current security advancement of the current well known exchange like Binance and Coinbase. Binance has an insurance incase a security breach happened which we already saw in the past when they experience an attack. Regulators is also more aggressive right now compared before that's why exchange can easily runaway.

Besides, Exchange is the most profitable business on crypto industry. I believe they are pretty heavily invested on there security system compared before.

But still, Exchange Should not be use to hold crypt for long term since you don't have full control of your funds.  :)

I’d agree with your statements concerning security improvement; but let’s not also for get that with security advancing, hackers are also getting a lot smarter. And besides, it’s not as if exchanges aren’t even getting hacked these days.. https://cryptosec.info/exchange-hacks/


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: maxreish on December 25, 2020, 05:37:37 AM
Do not forget that even the tightiest security got hacked before.
E.g. Binance

So if you are about to plan for long term hold, mk4 said it right to choose non custodial wallets lr hard wallets are highly recomnended. I myself used non custodial wallet for quite some time now as long term holder and so far I never encounter such issues and my hold btc were safely stored there.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: michellee on December 25, 2020, 07:30:11 AM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.
Yes, it is a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan, but it is a bad idea to save that crypto in the exchanges because you will not know if that exchanges can always protect the member assets. You must hold it on the other wallets, which you can control, and you can access it anytime. Maybe you need to have a hardware wallet or other wallets which support multi coins, so you can get it all in one wallet and save it in your secret place.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: CryptopreneurBrainboss on December 25, 2020, 06:12:21 PM
There are so many reasons why exchange aren't recommended to be used in storing your funds. The biggest of them has been mentioned here hundreds of time which is the risk of the exchange getting hacked but excluding that we have others disadvantages like them been centralized and operate exactly like the bank meaning you're not in control of your funds and can't access it when even you wished.

We also have the risk of losing them due to personal mistakes like not been able to log into your email to confirmation. I changed my phone and lost access the my Email login details which prevented me from gaining access to my account as I was asked to authorize my login since I was using a new device and unfortunately I have lost access to my email login details.

Lucky though my laptop was a recognize device and I have to go through the stress of changing my email to a new one after successfully loginng into binance from the system. There's some many disadvantages to storing your funds on exchange that I'll be best you store them offline.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Xinarae* on December 25, 2020, 06:21:31 PM
For me, binance may be a good platform for long-term investment. it's a really secure site and hackers cannot easily hack  Binance features a lot of recognition for exchanges within the crypto market. they need many advantages of coin trading. Its interface, design, support Many good investors can easily learn the knowledge of their site. Moreover, its market graph is far easier than other markets so newcomers won't have any difficulty in understanding the market graph. additionally the quantity of fees for Basic and Advance users is far lower.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: ChrisPop on December 25, 2020, 06:31:54 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.

Nope, it is definitely not a good idea for long-term investments. As far as I know the current exchanges on the market are not insured by any financial authorities. So in case they lose access to your Bitcoin you will be left with NONE and you won't receive any compensation.

If I were you I would keep funds on exchanges only as long as I am trading with them.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: optimisticcm on December 25, 2020, 07:19:07 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.
Yes binance is trusted and good to store coins but it is not suggested or recommended by experts because there is always risk to store your coins at third party exchanges or wallets without the private keys. So what you can do is after buying from exchanges you should transfer the coins to your private wallet in this way you will be in full control of your coins and investments.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Shasha80 on December 25, 2020, 08:28:07 PM
All centralized exchanges are strongly discouraged from being used as long-term investments, if it's just for trading I don't think
it's a problem. But if you plan to hold coins, you should avoid using centralized exchanges such as Binance or Coinbase. Although
both exchanges are popular and have good security systems, still if we do not keep the private keys ourselves it is too risky.
My advice is that we can store our coins in a hardware wallet, where only we can access the crypto that we have, because only we
keep the private keys ourselves.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Fatunad on December 25, 2020, 08:37:07 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.
Yes binance is trusted and good to store coins but it is not suggested or recommended by experts because there is always risk to store your coins at third party exchanges or wallets without the private keys. So what you can do is after buying from exchanges you should transfer the coins to your private wallet in this way you will be in full control of your coins and investments.

Its never been ideal for you to store your coins in platforms which you dont possess the keys because once there is some hack then for sure you would really be having a hard time on recovering those coins because you dont own the keys unlike if you do store it on your wallet then you do really be having that feeling of security of those coins since you know that you do have the keys of it. unlike if you do store it on a platform on which you dont know
on when it would be hacked and there no chance for recovery.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: so98nn on December 27, 2020, 01:30:54 PM
Only use exchanges for their sole purpose: BUYING or SELLING cryptocurrencies; NOT holding.

For holding coins, use non-custodial wallets. Learn more about them here: https://notyourkeys.org/

Yup, huge risk is involved when you store money over an exchanger. The main problem with them is, they are liable to hacks with no guarantee your funds would be secured with backed up money. I mean there is no way they will return your fund if any such tragedy happens over the period.

As stated by other users, the best place is cold storage, paper wallet, hardware wallets etc.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: XZERO1 on December 27, 2020, 01:43:24 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.

Are you referring to staking plans or something else?

If it's just staking I highly recommend you to just keep those assets in your personal wallet and stake them there, and as I know there are many proof-of-stake coins that you can hold in their supported wallets and your rewards will be assigned to you on that wallet and the rewards amount should be the same as what exchanges are offering too.

Specially if you're going to hold an asset for a long time exchange's 3rd-party wallets are not best place to keep them since they are mainly the target of most online threats in crypto, it's true that Coinbase and Binance till now proved to be really safe but who knows about what future brings really?


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: tarable on December 27, 2020, 02:28:12 PM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.
Yes, there are a lot of good exchanges at the moment, but for Binance I think it will be a little different from the others, because apart from the many features that can help Binance users, the exchanges have also prepared super security for their exchanges, because of Binance It has also been hacked by unknown people, so there are other options, such as storing some popular tokens and coins like Bitcoin in your own wallet, according to the required platform.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: konflikkastil on December 28, 2020, 07:25:15 AM
The question I always asked myself about all these sites or platforms is that. Can they be trusted with your coins? How long will they be in business? How do they resolved their problems anytime is rises? Do they have ways or measure put in place to savage or pay back anyone that has coin with them. All these questions till now, I don't know if any of the Exchange can give me an answer to them. But until then, keeping our coins with third party application will be the best thing. By doing such, you have the control of your coin.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Lotus on December 28, 2020, 08:07:50 AM
Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.

What kind of bad things have you heard about Coinbase?

In general, the legal entities with good reputation like Coinbase and Bittrex, etc... can be trusted to follow their standard procedures. Whether these are sufficiently secure or not, is up to you to decide. My advice is to keep only cryptos that you are actively trading on these platforms and everything you are HODLing should be on cold storage. If you don't have access to the top trusted exchanges and have to deal with more obscure ones, then proceed with caution. Assume they could vanish at any points and keep your transactions small and spread across multiple exchanges, rather than all the eggs in one nest.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Binance-Chief Analyst on December 28, 2020, 08:41:35 AM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.


The first point is the security of the investment platform, which is very important. Secondly, do you have a good helper who knows how to operate, which can make your investment faster and more stable


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: bitkanu on December 28, 2020, 09:36:52 AM
Is it a good idea to buy some crypto for long time investment plan from exchanges such as binance as keep it there, any alternatives ? Because i have heard bad things about some famous exchanges such coinbase.
It's not a good idea and it's the same as you didn't own your funds. Think about the possibility for exchange site to be hacked. BTW that's your own decision about what will you do with your money.
You should think about that dude. It's better to keep your fund in your wallet. It's a good idea to buy some promising coins and used it as long term investment but it's not about keeping your money on exchange site.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: Harlot on December 28, 2020, 10:34:29 AM
If you are planning to hold you cryptocurrencies and not trade them I think you just need to withdraw it out from an exchange and keep it into a desktop or hardware wallet which is more safer when it comes to storing your cryptocurrencies. There is really no use for you to keep your cryptocurrencies inside a wallet of an exchange since you really don't have any control in it and you won't even trade it so you are just risking yourself in putting your money there.


Title: Re: Investment Platform
Post by: SquallLeonhart on December 28, 2020, 03:55:56 PM
I know that people are not really in favor of keeping your money in exchanges but I put binance to the side on this subject. They have been hacked again and again, they have been also getting hacking attempts every single day from a million different sources, but no matter what happens they never let any of your money to go to waste at all, they are always in support of you.

That is the reason why I think binance is a place you can buy a coin and keep your money there, it wouldn't be really that amazing if they didn't keep your money safe, they are so much more awesome than anyone else because of their security levels. Which is why I am in favor of keeping your money there if you want to. Obviously this also depends on the money amount we are talking about, if we are talking about millions of dollars that would be bad idea, but if we are talking about few thousand dollars, that shouldn't matter.