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Title: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: btcb3g1nn3r on December 25, 2020, 08:13:24 AM Hello guys,
I don't see any pinned post here about fees and my search is giving not so relevant results about it. I still don't imagine that there will be soon enough too many online shops allowing BTC as payment since there are enough that even Paypal do not accept or other methods but payment by card (and not even all cards in case your billing address is not on their white list). So, for various reasons, you'll want to cash out (as fiat) some of your BTC savings and the questions would be: how much one will pay for fees per such transaction? Before answering this question, can you tell how one can calculate the fee for buying BTC? I see the fee is calculated based on the transaction data (size) to be processed -> how to calculate that and minimize the fee cost? Once you bought BTC, what would be the fee for sending this further to another wallet (let's say a storage wallet)? For all, can you tell your top3 best options / solutions / services for lowest fees? (to buy, to store, to exchange in fiat) many thanks! Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: ranochigo on December 25, 2020, 08:48:55 AM So, for various reasons, you'll want to cash out (as fiat) some of your BTC savings and the questions would be: how much one will pay for fees per such transaction? Definitely not custodial wallets. Most custodial wallets can benefit from imposing higher than appropriate fees when their users withdraw and the transaction is a batched transaction, which means that you're really paying more than what's needed/spent on the fees.Before answering this question, can you tell how one can calculate the fee for buying BTC? I see the fee is calculated based on the transaction data (size) to be processed -> how to calculate that and minimize the fee cost? Once you bought BTC, what would be the fee for sending this further to another wallet (let's say a storage wallet)? As for the wallets to use, you can choose from Electrum, Wasabi wallet, Bitcoin Core, they're my recommendation. For the lowest fees, try to use Segwit. The wallet will calculate the size and thus the fees automatically for you. Since the size is a direct factor of the amount of fees that you pay, try to reduce the number of inputs used per transaction by consolidating smaller UTXOs periodically when the fees are low. For example, if you receive 3 payments a day, you can consolidate those many UTXOs and you'll need to use lesser inputs when you need to spend your funds in the future. The benefits is most evident when you're trying to send funds when the fees are high. If you want a rough estimate of the size, try using this: https://jlopp.github.io/bitcoin-transaction-size-calculator/. You have to understand what the values means. You don't have to know the size, just follow my recommendations and you'll be fine. I can't comment on how exchanges charge for the fees, that's dependent on where you live and which exchange you have access to. Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: actmyname on December 25, 2020, 09:16:14 AM The wallet will calculate the size and thus the fees automatically for you. It is always better to manually check the mempool via a few (https://mempool.space) useful (https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#1,2h) websites (https://mempool.observer). If you're looking for speed/efficiency for one-block confirmations, I would recommend adding 5-10% more than the current highest fee bucket depending on the network (i.e. if it barely confirms at 6 sat/byte, push it to 7 or 8; at 60 s/b, try 66 to 72).Bitcoin gives you the tools to financial freedom: you have the power to control your money. Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: OcTradism on December 25, 2020, 10:32:25 AM - Choose a good wallet (non-custodial): Electrum.
- Use Bech32 address (Segwit): You can create Legacy or Segwit wallet with Electrum. Choose Segwit. - Consolidate small inputs when fee is low - Watch the mempool with https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#1,8h to consolidate small inputs or to make your real transactions. Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: khaled0111 on December 25, 2020, 09:15:11 PM Once you bought BTC, what would be the fee for sending this further to another wallet (let's say a storage wallet)? If you bought the coins from a centralised exchange like binance or coinbase then the transaction size doesn't matter because those exchanges charge flat fees for withdrawals (like 0.0005 btc or 0.001 btc /transaction).In the other hand, if you are sending from your own wallet to someone else's wallet, then all you have to pay is the miners fee which depends solely on the transaction size and the fee rate you choose. Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: actmyname on December 25, 2020, 10:19:31 PM Once you bought BTC, what would be the fee for sending this further to another wallet (let's say a storage wallet)? If you bought the coins from a centralised exchange like binance or coinbase then the transaction size doesn't matter because those exchanges charge flat fees for withdrawals (like 0.0005 btc or 0.001 btc /transaction).Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: btcb3g1nn3r on December 25, 2020, 10:35:13 PM Once you bought BTC, what would be the fee for sending this further to another wallet (let's say a storage wallet)? If you bought the coins from a centralised exchange like binance or coinbase then the transaction size doesn't matter because those exchanges charge flat fees for withdrawals (like 0.0005 btc or 0.001 btc /transaction).In the other hand, if you are sending from your own wallet to someone else's wallet, then all you have to pay is the miners fee which depends solely on the transaction size and the fee rate you choose. finally some numbers :D so, binance is best for such fees among centralized services however best option for buying is P2P (something that I could deduce). Still for selling back/withdrawing cash, I guess again the best option is P2P (so to sell to someone who would like to buy with fiat) or for centralized still binance as best service? Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: Bitcoin_Arena on December 25, 2020, 10:44:40 PM These are other factors to consider; This only applies from personal wallet to personal wallet trnansactions
1. Day of the week: Week days are considered to be the busiest for the Bitcoin network which implies high numbers of unconfirmed transactions in the mempool. The transaction activity tends to slow down during weekends which also translates to lower transaction fee rates that can easily be confirmed once the mempool clears - Bitcoin transaction fees (in sats/kb). Sunday, Saturday are best to move BTC (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5250569.0) 2. Time of the day Bitcoin fees tend to spike at certain hours during the day. Do on't want to send you transactions during those time of the day especially if you are planning to use a lower fee rate and need quicker confirmations. For example always send out your transaction every day some hours before 13:00 UTC, when bitmex broadcasts a batch withdrawal of thousands of transaction with relatively high transactions fees which flood the mempool for a few hours affecting how long other transactions with lower fees are going to be confirmed https://b10c.me/data/observations/02-bitmex-broadcast/effect-observed-feerate.png https://b10c.me/mempool-observations/2-bitmex-broadcast-13-utc/ Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: Ryker1 on December 25, 2020, 11:54:25 PM so, binance is best for such fees among centralized services however best option for buying is P2P (something that I could deduce). Well, the safest way of selling/buying your bitcoin is on binance p2p. You can actually sell your cryptocurrency to fiat via P2P on binance on this site. Still for selling back/withdrawing cash, I guess again the best option is P2P (so to sell to someone who would like to buy with fiat) or for centralized still binance as best service? [ https://p2p.binance.com/en ] and follow this instruction for more details, [ https://www.binance.com/en/support/articles/360039385091-How-to-Sell-Cryptocurrency-on-Binance-P2P-App-- ]. However, here in the forum have also p2p, but don't forget to use escrow for the safe dealing with other user and choose Segwit address using Electrum wallet for the best modifying of fees. Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: pakhitheboss on December 26, 2020, 04:29:44 AM What I do is to first check memepool.space first. It provides the real time information of the fee that will get your transaction confirmed. Then I use a non custodial wallet like Mycelium to check what is the normal fee that it is showing. I then calculate what I can afford to pay and then make my transfer. There still no guarantee that after all of these your transaction will get confirmed the same day. It all depends on the Bitcoin network if it's conjugated you will have to wait or pay the higher fee.
Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: ranochigo on December 26, 2020, 04:39:53 AM It is always better to manually check the mempool via a few (https://mempool.space) useful (https://jochen-hoenicke.de/queue/#1,2h) websites (https://mempool.observer). If you're looking for speed/efficiency for one-block confirmations, I would recommend adding 5-10% more than the current highest fee bucket depending on the network (i.e. if it barely confirms at 6 sat/byte, push it to 7 or 8; at 60 s/b, try 66 to 72). You can do that. Most wallets already provide floating fees and they're somewhat the same. I would consider using actual mempool stats if you know how to read one and can estimate how much fees you need given the statistics. Most wallets has a decent algorithm to calculate the optimum fees for confirmations within X blocks which can be easier for OP, if he doesn't know how mempool would work.IMO, there could be some ambiguity when reading the mempool stats but most fee estimation algorithm does some calibration based on the time after the last block and stuff. It definitely won't be 100% accurate, nothing really is. finally some numbers :D 0.0005BTC for a transaction is actually quite absurd. I had to pay 0.0005BTC for my withdrawal while my other transaction took 10 times less than that. You probably have to consider the fees with depositing from your bank (if your currency isn't supported on Binance), the trading fees and stuff like that. Localbitcoins and Bisq are good P2P exchanges to consider as well. It could fit better into your use case.so, binance is best for such fees among centralized services however best option for buying is P2P (something that I could deduce). Still for selling back/withdrawing cash, I guess again the best option is P2P (so to sell to someone who would like to buy with fiat) or for centralized still binance as best service? Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: btcb3g1nn3r on December 26, 2020, 05:42:53 AM These are other factors to consider; This only applies from personal wallet to personal wallet trnansactions 1. Day of the week: Week days are considered to be the busiest for the Bitcoin network which implies high numbers of unconfirmed transactions in the mempool. The transaction activity tends to slow down during weekends which also translates to lower transaction fee rates that can easily be confirmed once the mempool clears - Bitcoin transaction fees (in sats/kb). Sunday, Saturday are best to move BTC (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5250569.0) great tips, it helped me also to find another interesting thread to read: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2848987.0 I'll read again the Newbies pinned thread as I can't remember seeing anything about fees so such topic is a must read for beginners. Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: Findingnemo on December 26, 2020, 07:10:00 AM finally some numbers :D P2p is better place for crypto to fiat transactions in terms of fees but you may need to consider about providing KYC details to the platform while registering and also traders may ask you KYC when choosing high risk payment modes.so, binance is best for such fees among centralized services however best option for buying is P2P (something that I could deduce). Still for selling back/withdrawing cash, I guess again the best option is P2P (so to sell to someone who would like to buy with fiat) or for centralized still binance as best service? Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: btcb3g1nn3r on December 26, 2020, 09:53:51 AM I add here a good read taken from an unpinned good thread: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Techniques_to_reduce_transaction_fees
Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: tranthidung on December 26, 2020, 02:29:35 PM - Bitcoin transaction fees (in sats/kb). Sunday, Saturday are best to move BTC (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5250569.0) I thank you for mentioning about my thread.Quote 2. Time of the day I played with the data set today and I can confirm it.For example always send out your transaction every day some hours before 13:00 UTC, when bitmex broadcasts a batch withdrawal of thousands of transaction with relatively high transactions fees which flood the mempool for a few hours affecting how long other transactions with lower fees are going to be confirmed
Raw data Code: +-----------------------+ This part is for hourly fee, but for all days in this year. Code: Summary for variables: feeperkb Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: Barinekapaul on December 26, 2020, 02:56:46 PM What you need to bear in mind is a wallet that is trust worthy and that which can safe your earnings.
So I will recommend you use Electrum and Mycelium also. Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: btcb3g1nn3r on December 26, 2020, 03:06:32 PM @tranthidung, as it's a beginner section, can you explain the meaning for your table header (columns meaning) ?
many thanks and keep up your nice work! Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: dzungmobile on December 26, 2020, 03:23:56 PM Mean is
sd is standard deviation. p50 is median. The interquartile range is from p25 to p75. Min is minimum Max is maximum n is total number of observations. Example if you have 100 observations, and sort them out in values. You can imagine the median as to middle point of 100 observations. The interquartile range is 50% around the median. 25% below the median and 25% above the median. You can consider the range as volatility level around the median. This one is for fee, to save fee. So the narrower for the range, the better. Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: bitmover on December 26, 2020, 03:34:02 PM Mean is average. Mean is not the average. Quote Average can simply be defined as the sum of all the numbers divided by the total number of values. Mean on the other hand is the result of the addition of the largest and smallest numbers in the set and dividing them by 2 https://byjus.com/maths/difference-between-average-and-mean/Average is usually present as mean or arithmetic mean. Mean is simply a method of describing the average of the sample. Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: btcb3g1nn3r on December 26, 2020, 09:54:09 PM if I buy BTC, my balance will be charged with the current value of the BTC or with the one BTC will have whenever the transaction will be confirmed?
Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: jerry0 on December 26, 2020, 10:43:55 PM Is electrum fees much lower than nano ledger s fees? A while back irecalled i could even make no fee with electrum. I no longer use electrum anymore.
Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: ranochigo on December 27, 2020, 04:01:09 AM if I buy BTC, my balance will be charged with the current value of the BTC or with the one BTC will have whenever the transaction will be confirmed? Current value. No exchange would want to lose money and risk having to wait for your BTC to confirm. Is electrum fees much lower than nano ledger s fees? A while back irecalled i could even make no fee with electrum. I no longer use electrum anymore. Free transactions are not realistic any more.The main difference between different wallets is the way they handle the transactions. Electrum does offer features such as easy RBF, CPFP while giving the user the control over their fee with the native segwit. That's why it's often recommended because it's UI is easier to use than most. Fees wise, given the same conditions (address type, mempool, etc) , there shouldn't be any fee differential between wallets. Title: Re: Fees - top 3 best choices for lowest fees? Post by: btcb3g1nn3r on December 27, 2020, 08:57:37 AM Ok, after more research I have a theoretical view on the fees charged for investing in bitcoin with fiat from your bank account then returning fiat back to your bank account:
step1) buy BTC via bank transfer (no fee for SEPA) step2) for holding, transfer BTC to safe wallet -> withdraw fee: 0.0005BTC step3) deposit BTC from your safe wallet back to binance wallet -> https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/fee-calculator/ = 0.1 - 5EUR dependiing if you're in a hurry or not (assumption 1:1 as inputs and outputs) step4) convert / exchange BTC to EUR -> 0.1% binance fee step5) withdraw EUR to your bank account -> 0 fee Concrete example based on initial investment as 1000EUR: step1) buy BTC via bank transfer as 1000EUR worth -> 0.044171BTC step2) for holding, transfer BTC to safe wallet -> withdraw fee: 0.0005BTC => 0.043671BTC in your safe wallet step3) deposit BTC from your safe wallet back to binance wallet -> assume 0.0002BTC mining fee -> 0.043471BTC in your binance account step4) convert / exchange BTC to EUR -> 0.1% binance fee => 0.043427529BTC to EUR (assumed same value as in step 1) = ~983eur step5) withdraw EUR to your bank account -> 0 fee -> ~983EUR in your bank account This means in order to have a profit you have to take care of the BTC/EUR ratio to cover the Binance trading fee (0.1%) withdraw fee 0.0005BTC and mining fee (~0.0002BTC) Is this calculation correct? (the steps at least as the actual figures depend on the market trend and mining fees) Another question, is there a limit to the amount you can withdraw from binance account per transaction / day / month as fiat? |
