Bitcoin Forum

Pump and dumps have been a part of cryptocurrency trading scene since the first exchanges went live, owing a lot to thin order books, and unregulated exchanges.

That is, an individual or a group of individuals could cause an increase in price (typically with volume) to generate hysteria to then subsequently sell off for a huge profit at the expense of those late to the game.

The markets have long been manipulated, however nowadays there are groups dedicated to generated huge trading volumes along with heavy social media promotion to generate hysteria.

What's your take on pump and dumps? Does it make you feel uncomfortable knowing that traders outside of the circle will likely make a short-term loss, while those within the circle will mostly make significant gains?

Pump and dump are beauty of crypto market and I don't deny that I love it. I don't join any signal group because it is non-sense and very risky. Join those groups can make more dependent on thoughts and signals of others and don't have my own thoughts. Signals can cause greed and stupid activities. In one signal group, the more receivers of one signal, the sooner receivers will take advantage of the signal (if it is good) and the later receivers will take shit dumps.

I only watch pumps and wait for pull back to find a good entry and enjoy bounces from dumps.

I think the pumper fuck themselves over a lot.

I trade inter and intra minute timeframes with leverage and it's fun to watch a breakout crash almost as fast as it breaks with a high volume because the pumper misjudged the volume needed to pump it up (people re-entering for example).

They do it enough times that people doing TA should be able to spot it (it's not directly the same as a fake out though either) and anyone just buying don't have much of an affect on their buy price normally either.

Also, one word: DOGE! Where would we be without those beautiful 3x pumps that randomly occur?

It's manipulation and it's unethical. Whales controlling the market is sucks. They are destroying the organic growth of crypto. This is the reason why there's always a fear in every significant pump of BTC, People always assume that all pump was fake even if its organic pump.

This kind of activity involves leverage trading. I heard some rumor that a group of whale opening position on leverage trading then they will use the crypto market to pump/dump the market in favor to there position. Usually they use signal like indicators to trap many small time investors.

At first, a lot will say, no, it's not, hang them!
In reality, a lot are jealous of not being able to do it themselves and a lot more are doing the same just longer-term, shilling for a coin, spamming forums, and twitter and other social media platforms with the coin just so that it will grow in value and once it has reached the desired target the users sells and takes his profits. Same thing, just a longer pump and a short dump.
But contrary to what others have replied I don't see the beauty or funny part in it either, just as it was with bitcoin in the past it's a sign of centralization, with enough traders having enough coins to influence the markets at their will, more a concerning sight than something interesting. Again, I'm talking about pump and dumps triggered by groups of people not by events, that's something different.

 

Quite an easy yes in my opinion. In most cases, especially with the typical _ʌ_ chart of crypto pnds, it's just the sort of "group leader" and a minority of other members are the ones that end up making money, while the other majority are left underwater holding a worthless bag of assets. Though I guess it also depends on how the pnd is advertised.

I voted yes, but it doesn't mean a pump and dump groups are reliable to join to gain profit. No, it's not!

You can completely join a free signal group at your own risk, at least you know that the owner of that free signal group will earn more than the members because they know when is the selling point compared to the member.

For me, I avoided this kind of group because I don't have enough time to monitor their activity, as a member, you should 24/7 awake.

I said the beauty is from the chart and my entry if I find it. I never join pump or dump signal groups, they are sucked and I presented my opinion in past post.

I think it is unethical to join a signal group and seed the signal to some other channels. The receiver who can take profit are less than the receiver who will be sinked with price after flash dump. They rely on signals so they don't have their opinion and when dumps happen, they shake hands and get loss.

It is good if you stay outside signal groups and make your trades.

Pumps with events are scheduled are more organic and can last long but pump from signal groups don't last long. After a pump is a flash dump.

We can say it is unethical for the pump and dump. But when you see the price jump high, I guess many people will try to join at that moment and sell their coins because they want to make a big profit. I feel comfortable with anything to happen to the market, whether there are a pump and dump happens because I realize that pump and dump will always happen in the market. If the pump and dump are not happening to the market, we will not see growth in the crypto market, and probably, the situation will be stagnant for a long time. People who can use the pump and dump moment will try to use that moment for their own benefit.

it's a wash.

markets are zero sum---there are always gonna be winners and losers. i'm not gonna lose any sleep over the losers. they gambled on the market and lost.

that doesn't mean i have any admiration for pump-and-dumpers. i just think they come with the territory. i'd also rather live in a world based on caveat emptor than one where nanny states regulate markets to shit, just to save gullible idiots from themselves.

fools will be parted from their money no matter what. if it's not this scam or the next one, it'll be the one after that.

One of the major victim here are the newbies.
Those people who are tricked by people, and I believe most of the people who are managing the pumps and dumps or the one who is controlling it are whales for sure. You can't do pump and dump without a quite big fund.

In my opinion, there is hardly any "classic" pump and dump anymore, as was the case at the end of 2017. At that time, such Telegram groups were almost a dime a dozen, but today you can hardly find any that have a critical number of members, so that the price could be moved somehow (apart from < 10k market cap coins without liquidity, of course).

Nowadays P&D takes place much more hidden through crypto influencers. Once they have an appropriate reach, immoral offers like this one come:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg9n8CZU8AA1xPh?format=jpg&name=large
Source (https://twitter.com/ToneVays/status/1301373100576051204/photo/1)

It is also obvious that many influencers accept these offers - without naming names.

They are opportunists, not influencers. True influencers beware of what they do and what they can bring to audience, followers, friends or members in their groups.

Andreas Antonopoulos proved his reputation with this tweet and the rejection on 10 BTC offer from HEX.
Andreas Antonopoulos: Hex Team Offered Me 10 BTC to Speak Well of Their Token (https://news.bitcoin.com/andreas-antonopoulos-hex-team-offered-me-10-btc-to-speak-well-of-their-token/)

Ethics is a moral principle that govern human behaviour so in such case if you are within the circle, it is ethically acceptable and if you are outside the circle, it might not be ethically acceptable. Planned pump and dump are common but I believe this is a game that shouldn't lead to complain because if you are in it you should have known it is very risky. Almost everyday, a coin always come up with huge pump so if you join by trading the coin, you should be prepared for what happen. This is what happen in many of this group that claim to give signal. What they do is that they organised planned pump across numerous group and use many of their group member as a bait

this is quite rational and acceptable. It is true that there is always the possibility of a group of people having this kind of activity. it's just that we as small traders can become victims of the malignancy of their dump, it can also be a support when the pump occurs. This is undeniable, the digital era can be easily controlled by people in this circle. it's just that we don't know who they really are. market movements become irreconcilable, we are confused by the sudden pump and dump.

Of course they are, yes :)
But you also have to be honest and say that probably very few would just turn down such easy money as 10 BTC or 500k in USD. Their "customers" have no clue and invest money in good faith in the so advertised coins and projects.

In my opinion, this is unethical in any case.

That kind of scheme has been illegal for a long time and to me it is right there with Ponzi schemes, so to me the people behind those schemes are nothing but scammers, maybe some may think my posture is too harsh especially if we look at the results of the poll so far, but that is what it is, they are taking advantage of the ignorance of most investors about this kind of scheme and then dumping their coins when the price reaches their desired target which is simply not right.

Uncomfortable or what as it is but as you said, it's already a usual scene since then.

For that, we just have to be used to it and try to create a strategy that can ride the wave.

The manipulations or any general move by the big groups or those so-called "whales" can't be avoided so we need to always have a plan about how to deal with those activities. And a basic rule of thumb, don't try to test waters at those shitcoins hypes if you don't understand the risks.

I am seeing nothing wrong with pump and dump because is part of the cryptocurrency and that is how money is made. Market can't be steady in a price without shift and you talk about profit. When you make profit, some has made lose and market keep on moving.
I can be against pump and dump if it is a worthless coin made for only the purpose to scam investors. Such coin just only pump and dump for life to the disadvantage of hodlers as it may not come up again in the market or get removed from exchange.

The pump and dump of bitcoin is ethically acceptable for this have be the nature of bitcoin. The pump and dump of bitcoin make it a business.

At times the creators of heavy projects term it to be ethical just to attain the target through their project. Whats the need of pumping and dumping the market when there is growth based on the demand to the supply. A pump and dump based growth is a manipulated growth.

My vote is YES

I think it is because everybody in one way or another try to manipulate the market as they want/wish to.

I think that in the cryptocurrency particular case, we are living in a grey area and what is ethical is essentially a subjective matter.

The pump organizer, just like Alice, have all the power. The organizer will choose what coin to pump ( depending on deep is their pocket but in general the organizer choose a dormant coin with very low trading volume),

.. so the organizer can buy it as cheap as possible before the pump event, the members (in general a telegraph app groups) then get the privileged information on which coin to pump. The group as a whole try to bump as much as possible then dump..

The group is aware what they got into to, they know the rules, etc.

BUT, most of my research on that subject is based on that academic paper.

Xu, Jiahua, and Benjamin Livshits. "The anatomy of a cryptocurrency pump-and-dump scheme." 28th {USENIX} Security Symposium ({USENIX} Security 19). 2019.

Pump and Dump?

Majority of us would really be always having a bad perception towards it because we do want a somewhat stabilize and cant be easily crashed type of market.
Its ethically acceptable? Ive seen some do agree and some do disagree so its just matter of peoples views about it.

Also, we cant even precisely tell if its really a planned pump and dump because things goes smoothly when it rise and find out and tell up some words
when it declines too fast or crash.

Manipulation, the pump and dump group have this way to make the market more alive than usual transactions.

For me, it was acceptable. Besides, I was benefiting from it. But I don't think that was made so simple. People who are involved in this (probably a whales) are also risking their money. Of course, they are also spending money on this to completely set up their plan and succeed. And investors had come on the market, we never think it was a trap (even now) but thinking as a normal scenario.

another question in ..

is there a "pump'n'dump coin/colored/token"? or "bump and dump" (ticker bad)

crypto pump'n'dump schemes always reminds that old Music Video Clip "Paul McCartney & Michael Jackson - Say, Say, Say (Original 1983 Video)" ;D 

I see -_-

We have accepted it already because we understand that it's how the market works, the pumpers and the dumpers are just paying around, they hype the news and they cause some panic after, the only people who are affected here are those who doesn't know how to play the game.

Been here for a while and I learn a lot of things, bitcoin will never continue its pumped for long, there's always a correction and some panic while me, I'll just wait at the right time to buy at dip. Believe me, this bull run will result to another big panic but that's a necessary one.

Nowadays? Pump and dump groups are as old as trading itself. Forex groups been populating markets for a long time, though yeah crypto markets and the ease of creating tokens now have really just been a boon to these signal providers and so-called pump groups. But just in case you didn't know, and for the benefit of others, they're all scams, you do know that, right?

Never mind ethics, they're not even profitable.

Pumps and dumps and immoral and I cannot accept it ethically.

They are literally planned and executed mass scams! Additionally, pumps and dumps are bringing bad names over communities and coins.

JPMorgan Chase approved ;D

Uncomfortable it is but that's how it is and I know for a fact that crypto market jas been manipulated by those pump and dump groups.
Technically, theyve used to boost the price whenever they've wanted to. These schemes have been happening since I've joined crypto industry.

Thus, those who are doing such will lead to massive losses when you can't handle this unexpected pumps and dumps especially when you are day trader.

Even if that pumps and dumps are not ethical, that pumps and dumps will always happen at the market, and we can not deny it. I think we can enjoy that moment because I am sure that if we can follow the pumps and dumps moment, we will make a profit, and we can get the best time to buy the coin at a low price. Yes, those pumps and dumps controlled by some groups, and if we are not careful, we can lose our money because we are buying the coin at a high price.

A definitely true, for me a dump and pump group set the market on green or alive and its a way acceptable and in fact the green market not only benefits a one person only but it does benefits us all. The most probable thing that we should consider dealing with these dump and pump states are the risk that we may take, and yes the risk were already given and we don't have any other choice but to deal with it, but atleast these might help us to become wisely enough in our decisions in dealing in cryptocurrency.

That seems to be normal and a thing that we don't need to complain about but instead to accept and live the market that is full of excitement and drama.

Besides, these people are free to do what they want. And I don't think there are doing badly in fact, traders are also benefiting from this. We have a chance to buy at the deep and sold it the bearish season, this becomes possible because of them and maybe, we are so thankful for having them.

We need to accept that some whales can control the price of one of the altcoin if they want thats why you to DYOR before investing in any project. Even in too crypto exchange it's working since whales or those who have a lot money want to also increase by trading crypto currency and they know that it is hard to do known crypto currency . So they do it to new crypto that has a potential and bought in deep and sell it those people that late to enter the market.

I doubt that we will always have pump and dumps in the market, we are going towards something more. Have you realized that thanks to DeFi projects and exchanges like uniswap we have been going towards more of a "swap" instead of trade? That means if we get to reach to a point where people are swapping their tokens instead of just selling them, that means pump and dump could become much harder.

I am not saying it will be impossible, but it could get al ot harder. Obviously CEX will always exist but by the looks of it they are either going to DEX route as well, or they are delisting many coins and keeping only the ones that are profitable, which would mean a lot higher volume which "should" mean it would be a lot harder to pump and dump, would require A LOT more money. Hence I think eventually we can get rid of all the pump and dump type of news very soon.

pump and dumps happen on the coins that we arent familar with or newer built coins , it didnt bothers me because im not into those coins but i pick standard coins although there are manipulations here too but this mostly came from normal whales and not by a group of pump and dumpers .
 i can timed my moves well , ive been affected by manipulations minimally luckily . pump and dump are accepted because they are long known and they are still not banned but people hate fake pump and dump groups .

The pump and dumps will always happen in the market, no matter we hard to predict when it will come. Uniswap gives another opportunity for people to making money, and they sell their tokens at that exchange. So I think swap and trade will be the same because people sell (swap) their tokens to ethereum. But sooner or later, people will have more opportunities to sell their tokens at the popular exchanges because the tokens will get lists on the exchanges.

CEX and DEX will have its fan, and people will know what they need to choose, whether using CEX and DEX. There will be people or groups who will use the news to make pumps and dumps because they want to make a big profit from the tokens.

I voted NO
Because its a fraud, and a form of market manipulation which makes money by creating a false market.

I think that people have different concepts of pump and dump and that is why there are so many voting for the option yes on the pool, it seems they think that any rapid growth or decrease in the price as a pump and dump and that is just the natural volatility of the market, but when I think of a pump and dump I think of a scheme in which a small group of individuals buy a coin with a low market cap for a cheap price and then they convince a lot of people this coin will go up and as such it pumps and then they dump their coins on them when the price is high, and such a thing is a scam no matter how you look at it.

I think the planned pump and dump is an unethical way of trading and I am against it, because there will be many newbies who become victims.
I have a friend who is a victim of a pump and dump conducted by a trading group, eventually he considers crypto is scams. So I am very upset
if there are whales doing pump and dump, it causes many victims for small investors who don't have trading experience. Moreover, getting profit
from a pump and dump will make us feel guilty, because there are some people who are disadvantaged.

Im having the same perception too when it comes to the poll results where people might believe that this is just a usual concept without even realizing

on whats actually a pump and dump scheme.Of course we don't really want to see to have that kind of market where price can shoot up green high spikes and

later on we do see a huge red candle sharply crashing down to the floor.It isn't acceptable but it can possible happen from time to time.

Strange that there would be many concepts. It's not a crypto term, just popularised in crypto markets. And it really is a straightforward, ethically unsound concept that's recognised: you pump by making price, volume and demand go up artificially, and you dump on unsuspecting latecomers. Pretty clear to me, no argument.

So yeah, like you said, scammy af, and no two ways about it.

If it’s in the stock market pump and dump is illegal, but since cryptocurrency market is regulated I wouldn’t say that it is illegal, buts it is a wrong thing to do (that’s what I think, and I know that there are people like who wouldn’t like pump and dump groups). I have heard and seen lots of pump and dump groups but I never took part in it.

Why this thing annoys me is because there groups are fond of targeting microcap cryptocurrencies that are still struggling to find their way up and they will pump it and dump which will discourage a lot of investors. It’s wrong for me.

people who manipulate market prices can be imprisoned , there is a law for it I just don't know if this will law can also be use in crypto currency but if proven even the exchange has a power to block your account for manipulating the market. So its not a wise idea to join in a group that want to only manipulate the market just because they want to earn from. They can only shill it in social media but manipulating it is a crime and unacceptable for the exchange.

True, but the market here is unregulated and like a Wild West. Hence considered more risky than the fiat markets.

99% of altcoin projects are that. 8)

PnD is always going to be disadvantageous to hodlers and advantageous to the people doing it. If you are holding some coin which is prone to getting pumped and dumped, sell at the next pump and forget about that coin forever. Bitcoin rarely sees pump and dump that makes its price inflate or deflate too much hence there is no problem of holding it for long term.

It is one of the bad effects of having an unregulated market, you have nothing to do here but accept it and try to use it to your advantage.

Considering that when you sell all your coins for a high percentage profit and knowing that there are people that have bought at the 32k price point is a pretty Stock Market Manipulation alike. I think ethically it does not violate any moral or laws but can your conscience carry the burden that you will be making some people out there homeless because they bought bitcoin at a high price.

I think yes, but only on condition that everyone is aware of what is happening, and that the pump and dump are artificial.
Least of all, I like that in such stories there is always an element of deception of those people who have no idea what is happening and believe that the pump of a coin is completely natural - it is not beautiful.

Pump and dump are part of the trading assets in any format so its not only the issue of cryptocurrencies. In stocks as well these things can happen so we shouldn't tie this cryptocurrency, just need to be careful with big whales and their possible moves.

Ethically it may not be a right thing if someone keeps making profits by using all others but at last everyone is here for making money so the best one will likely to make it possible.

Not sure about the ethical part but i think it can be considered immoral if the intention is to manipulate price for selfish/bad reasons, and if a deliberate price manipulation is done without network approval.
So, people should be more considerate of the general network while trading.

It wouldn't work mate ;D

It is unethical since it relies upon newbies getting suckered into buying some coins.

In the end, the victim is always the newbies who bought last. That's why it's illegal in the regulated market.

I really think that pump and dumps are significant factor why many altcoins never see too much action, bitcoin is not only the best coin in the market it is also an asset that thanks to its huge volume cannot be pumped nowhere near as easily as a coin with no volume, this offers a certain amount of certainty, when you see a movement in bitcoin you know there is a significant amount of money in the movement and that for the most part it is a real movement with a lot of people behind it.

Regulated or not it would really be an unethical thing to be done yet if there are ones who do make money then there are lots who would get wrecked along the process.

Also these kind of pump and dump cant really be seen until its too late.You cant even point out if its a pump and dump one or a typical correction in the market.

So its hard to tell yet it cant really be done so easily yet there would be lots of questions and criticisms if that do happen.Lots of questions will arise and lots of searching will happen.

No Definitely not. Pump and dump if done intentionally can never be justified ethically. Moreover even worse is when you give guided advice to someone to buy this coin after you yourself have pumped it up. But another side of the coin is that in the market someone's loss is someone's profit but Merely buying with an intention to pump a coin and then dumping it intentionally in a way that its value comes down can never really be justified ethically. There are many new investors in the market who are never equipped enough to know about all this moreover many of them have put up their lifelong savings. Even though it might sound too emotional but I feel it's not really that ethical.

Worry about things you can control and let those you can't control be. You can't control how people when to manipulate their way to success as all you just explains above is a perfect example of using shortcuts to become successful which isn't idea. Irrespective the f how the pumps become a success, you abstaining from partaking in this act will prevent you from falling victims.

How to spot this pumps are very easy, they're using coins that have zero or low liquidity and can be easily manipulated. They have no community backup or technology to rely on instead using the hype around the community to decieve gullible investors if their project been the best.

I'm not in support of pumps and dump and intentionally I haven't participated in any although I have bought several coins in the past that I left the project immediately I saw some impressive numbers of ROI.

What we are seeing is normal in the crypto space, even if there are people who will continuously preach that bitcoin will be stable because of institutional investors but until it's proven, we should not believe it, we have to believe the nature and what we have been witnessing in a regular basis.

If I have enough money and I can benefit on the pump and dump, I would certainly do it as it's not illegal and everyone of us here is trading to make money, but we differ on ways.

In past i find this unfair because this has not been the market we are looking for , but on the other hand This is basically the way how the market proves Being Healthy mate because look on How will the market moves when there are no Pumping and Dumping happens .
Though still there is no Proof on this to be really in act but obviously there is .
Immoral but on some ways Useful , this sounds like a Gambling platform in which the winnings are given to be lower chances than losing.

I guess this is a reason why bitcoin has gained trust and with trust comes importance and long term valuation among the investors. Altcoins on the other hand are tainted by the words of pump and dump as evidenced by the charts.

Although bitcoin does get pumped without an organic cause when a certain triggering event takes place, it does get corrected with time and comes back to realistic levels soon. A good example is what happened this and the last 2weeks with the price as it crossed 40k USD and now getting corrected back to 34k USD.

Altcoin markets have always been a prey to PnD. I dont see their markets improving in this regard either in future. :P

Crypto stocks or fiat is free market and everyone responsible for their decisions so why not,
 good coins will stand the test of time

People who have involved in trading know about it and we should aware that trading isn't simply 'buy and sell' but Trading is a war among everyone who wants to get a profit. Someone can not earn profit without others lose their money, this is not related to ethics and the like, it's just a strategy and abilities to read the market and predict the outcome in the future that will determine whether someone will gain profit or lose.

Of course for the people like us here who are not rich, this is obviously very unprofessional or unethical. But in the positive side if you have
a trusted groups who will inform you if the coins will pump, many for sure can get a good profit in a short period of time. But if this just a group or signal group this is dangerous to join with them I guess.

Correct, which is why no one should try to trade those coins, it has been a known fact for a very long time that you cannot use technical analysis in small markets effectively and most honest books that you can read about trading will specify that pump and dumps are precisely the reason, in markets in which a single movement of a whale can move the market up or down technical analysis becomes meaningless and even if whales are powerful in the market of bitcoin they can be counted by other whales or retail investors.

Sure, everyone loves it when they're in on the game--but pump and dumps always have victims, the suckers that buy in at the top when all the insiders are dumping.  That's why it's illegal in the stock market to do that sort of thing.

It's kind of surprising to me that the laws haven't caught up to cryptocurrency in that respect, because I'm pretty sure it's still legal to pump and dump shitcoins at will.  It certainly happens all the time.  Anyway, I don't think it's "ethically acceptable" because of the aforementioned victims in the P&D scheme.  Nobody makes a profit in them without someone losing.

You can still trade in the top 10 altcoins. At least their market cap is comparable among each other and higher than the shitcoins that go 400% gains overnight. But these are not the coins to hold on to for long term. They are supposed to go up and go down without warning, even in the middle of the night. Making all of them a much more risky asset to hold than what bitcoin has become.

Bitcoin may drop but we have confidence that it will go up again. We can say this for certain but can we do that for altcoins? No. We will be doubting that.

This is why the fear level in altcoin market is also high. It takes just a small cap whale to dump and make the rest of the retail investors go crazy with fear. Hence my suggestion to keep altcoins to a minimum.